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NSWDG/Delta/AFSOC Recce Clone Picture and Discussion Thread (Page 133 of 137)
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Originally Posted By S-1: You like cloning guns and you don't want to watch one of the baddest MF'ers on the planet that has used said guns talk about them? That has nothing to do with my comment. I plan to listen to that 2 hours at some point in the background while doing something, but dont have time for it right now. If someone is going to allude to a 'bombshell' within a 2 hour video they should say what it is and not make us go searching for it. Common courtesy. |
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Originally Posted By the-answer-is-42: That has nothing to do with my comment. I plan to listen to that 2 hours at some point in the background while doing something, but dont have time for it right now. If someone is going to allude to a 'bombshell' within a 2 hour video they should say what it is and not make us go searching for it. Common courtesy. Originally Posted By the-answer-is-42: Originally Posted By S-1: You like cloning guns and you don't want to watch one of the baddest MF'ers on the planet that has used said guns talk about them? That has nothing to do with my comment. I plan to listen to that 2 hours at some point in the background while doing something, but dont have time for it right now. If someone is going to allude to a 'bombshell' within a 2 hour video they should say what it is and not make us go searching for it. Common courtesy. |
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Originally Posted By the-answer-is-42: So its a 16" with an old m4 style can with no brake? Does anyone know where those cut scenes came from showing the recce and 416? I don’t think it’s a the Gordon can as they’re made today. If it’s that style mount, it looks like it would have a shorter stack. The can GG had on his rifle was noticeably shorter than the current iteration. I’ve been bugging AE to make a direct thread can with a shorter stack for a while. |
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| Lmao, I guess we all just got duped into gap chasing. Doubt I'll get another Lilja barrel anytime soon and I don't think the suppressor exists currently. I have a banged up AF upper but I'm done with overpriced salty surplus receivers. Would like to see the actual details on what the real Recce rifles were though. |
Just for the record, i called this back in 2018 (!) and nobody here wanted to believe me  Originally Posted By kemp: It doesn't make sense for this configuration to be a chopped down 16" with an OPS 12th Consider that: - the NSWDG recces photographed without ops cans are all obviously 16" bbls - chopping down a perfectly fine 16" one inch just for the aesthetics of a flush can makes no sense from an operator/unit perspective - the recce concept predates the mk12 programme, and the ops 12th model was made specifically for the mk12 program - the same ops can has been photographed on the hk416, where it covers more bbl than a 12th would - NSWDG used ops cans since the nineties and there are a lot of ops designations in between the 3rd and 12th The only logical conclusion is the rifle pictured is a 16" bbl with an undocumented ops can made specifically for the recces. Edited for link to original discussion |
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Originally Posted By kemp: Just for the record, i called this back in 2018 (!) and nobody here wanted to believe me Edited for link to original discussion Originally Posted By kemp: Just for the record, i called this back in 2018 (!) and nobody here wanted to believe me Originally Posted By kemp: It doesn't make sense for this configuration to be a chopped down 16" with an OPS 12th Consider that: - the NSWDG recces photographed without ops cans are all obviously 16" bbls - chopping down a perfectly fine 16" one inch just for the aesthetics of a flush can makes no sense from an operator/unit perspective - the recce concept predates the mk12 programme, and the ops 12th model was made specifically for the mk12 program - the same ops can has been photographed on the hk416, where it covers more bbl than a 12th would - NSWDG used ops cans since the nineties and there are a lot of ops designations in between the 3rd and 12th The only logical conclusion is the rifle pictured is a 16" bbl with an undocumented ops can made specifically for the recces. Edited for link to original discussion |
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The Allen Engineering M4 Recce page now lists a “Allen Engineering m4 Recce” as the suppressor and collar as “M4 Recce.” Something tells me there’s already a can in the works, Especially with TC telling us to wait for the next video while already having the prototyped/re-cored can for the direct thread. https://www.aesuppressors.com/nsw-recce/ |
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They just posted this in the comments section… “We will be doing a deep dive into it on Episode 2. The barrels are Lilja 17" M4, but they measure their barrels differently than other people, so they're roughly 16.4" or so. Can was an Ops Inc can that was never sold to civilians. More info to come, promise!” |
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Originally Posted By kemp: Just for the record, i called this back in 2018 (!) and nobody here wanted to believe me Edited for link to original discussion You definitely deserve some kind of “real MVP” badge. I’ll find a way to link/credit you in a few places. I was just as convinced as everyone they were 12th models, but your points were just one of the many little pricks in that theory that popped up through the years which always left a little % of doubt. It wasn’t until last year that I saw some photos with hard evidence that we might have it all wrong that I decided to go down the rabbit hole and figure it out once and for all. Almost everything in your original points is correct. I’ll add a few clarifications and teasers: - There’s documented proof that these cans did in fact pre-date the Mk 12 program / cans. You nailed that one! - They are technically a 3rd model, but there’s a variety of reasons why that’s completely irrelevant/meaningless which we’ll go in to in episode 2. - The pic in that discussion that everyone is so sure is a socom/203 cut barrel I don’t think is (the one with the medium RAS). I believe it to be just the standard 17” Lilja barrel recce that has the Ops collar still on it. The collars are not Mk 12 collars. - There was a lot of belief that it was a linear timeline 249F -> KAC - Ops Inc (primarily because believing they were cut down) but that’s not the case. A lot of documented photos now (including in Episode 1 from Bill) of guys running the Ops can and then later deployments running unsuppressed. A lot of the recce pics we see that have a 249f on them *used* to have an Ops can. Pretty neat. - These are still being used today in updated configurations!! (rails, optics, layers, etc…) - One of the guys in that original discussion theorized that if they were chopped down it was @ Crane and/or Dev… and while that’s not perfectly accurate (b/c they’re not chopped at all) … it is touching on some accuracy. Dev gunsmiths did in fact do a lot of modifications like chopping barrels, the long 417 is a great example and for the recces specifically, they did still have a hand in creating/fitting them… Episode 2 was really fun to film and I think you guys will enjoy the story. I know I did. |
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Originally Posted By TinyCrumb: - There’s documented proof that these cans did in fact pre-date the Mk 12 program / cans. You nailed that one! - They are technically a 3rd model, but there’s a variety of reasons why that’s completely irrelevant/meaningless which we’ll go in to in episode 2. - There was a lot of belief that it was a linear timeline 249F -> KAC - Ops Inc (primarily because believing they were cut down) but that’s not the case. A lot of documented photos now (including in Episode 1 from Bill) of guys running the Ops can and then later deployments running unsuppressed. A lot of the recce pics we see that have a 249f on them *used* to have an Ops can. Pretty neat. What mostly confused me about some folks' insistence it had to be a 12th model was that the recce to mk12 timeline is so well documented: - We know for a fact JSOC had ops cans as early as 1989. - We know for a fact Crane's spr/mk12 programme was based on 16" navy recces (including dedicated suppressor setup) - We know for a fact that the 12th model can was built specifically for the spr/mk12 programme (it had to be because the move to 18" bbl and rifle gas meant a new distance from muzzle to gas block). - From this follows: there were recces with ops cans that predate the existence of the mk12. Which already makes sense simply from looking at the progression from 3rd model to 12th model. - And from that follows: nswdg would have 16" specific ops cans in inventory and there would be no need to take guns out of circulation to chop them down for what essentially amounts to aesthetics. Anyway, i thoroughly enjoyed the video and i am very much looking forward to new episodes. Edited to add: the "dimpled barrel" remark about the SR25 reminded me that it would be really interesting for you to find some SME's to dive more into the development of the carbine variation 25's. There is a lot of story behind how Dev VS Delta requirements drove different ways of looking at the SR25 carbine at the time. |
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Originally Posted By kemp: - We know for a fact JSOC had ops cans as early as 1989. Originally Posted By kemp: - We know for a fact JSOC had ops cans as early as 1989. Although that's true (I think you're referring to the Delta stuff?) These specific cans I believe are the first documented record of NSWDG specifically getting Ops cans. And the timeline is very close to the Mk 12 program, closer than you'd think. I can't mention the specific date here for privacy reasons but it was after GWOT started if that helps. Originally Posted By kemp: - We know for a fact Crane's spr/mk12 programme was based on 16" navy recces (including dedicated suppressor setup) This is where I think many people got tripped up. I think a lot of people out there considered the possiblity that the recce rifle might have been dev's "take" on a Mk 12 Mod 1. E.g., "Oh this Mk 12 thing is interesting but we don't like it because it's too long, let's make it shorter, closer to the length of our previous recce rifles". The timelines are scary close, almost in parallel. And remember a lot of the guys that were around for the beginning of those rifles only really mention ever shooting 77gr, which the development of I think was right around the same time as the Mk 12 program as well. Originally Posted By kemp: - We know for a fact that the 12th model can was built specifically for the spr/mk12 programme (it had to be because the move to 18" bbl and rifle gas meant a new distance from muzzle to gas block). Sure, but again, it all comes down to whether you assumed or knew the Ops can on the recce rifles came after or before the Mk 12 was deployed, and that would be really hard to know based on the timelines. They are so dang close. Originally Posted By kemp: - From this follows: there were recces with ops cans that predate the existence of the mk12. Which already makes sense simply from looking at the progression from 3rd model to 12th model. I'd caution on deriving any conclusions from the model number naming. It really is meaningless. Phil did not like the ATF and he didn't like paperwork. He was taking a lot of leeway with model names at the time (remember it's what shut them down in the end) and even though the cans for the recce rifles have a certain designation on them, it's meaningless, and the cans do not share attributes of other cans with that same designation. To give you some context, the recce cans and Mk 12 cans have the exact same baffle stack. We're talking months, not years, of timeline difference here. Originally Posted By kemp: - And from that follows: nswdg would have 16" specific ops cans in inventory and there would be no need to take guns out of circulation to chop them down for what essentially amounts to aesthetics. You keep mentioning that it would only amount to aesthetics, but that's not the case. There's documented history of dev gunsmiths chopping barrels down to make them shorter and lighter. Have even directly heard from Bill as an example on reasons why. The 417 is a great example, it was chopped down to right above 14", putting the Mk-13SD as close to the rail as possible essentially making that "flush" look … but it had nothing to do with aesthetics, it was just to get the gun lighter and shorter. So even though the conclusion that they were chopped down was incorrect, the assumed reasoning still has merit. Originally Posted By kemp: Anyway, i thoroughly enjoyed the video and i am very much looking forward to new episodes. Thank you! First one felt a bit rough but they'll hopefully get better over time. I'll be editing Ep 2 next week so I can hopefully get it out ASAP. Originally Posted By kemp: Edited to add: the "dimpled barrel" remark about the SR25 reminded me that it would be really interesting for you to find some SME's to dive more into the development of the carbine variation 25's. There is a lot of story behind how Dev VS Delta requirements drove different ways of looking at the SR25 carbine at the time. The dimpled carbine SR-25 is a unicorn of mine so I'd definitely love to do a deep dive into them at some point. I just recently finally got a pic of the first 16" I've seen, most that I had seen before were 14.5s. I only know of 2 cans in civi hands so that's a bit tough but where there's a will there's a way… maybe. |
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Originally Posted By TinyCrumb: This is where I think many people got tripped up. I think a lot of people out there considered the possiblity that the recce rifle might have been dev's "take" on a Mk 12 Mod 1. E.g., "Oh this Mk 12 thing is interesting but we don't like it because it's too long, let's make it shorter, closer to the length of our previous recce rifles". The timelines are scary close, almost in parallel. And remember a lot of the guys that were around for the beginning of those rifles only really mention ever shooting 77gr, which the development of I think was right around the same time as the Mk 12 program as well. It's just difficult to really pinpoint all the fine details and timelines on these rifles, Steve Holland has been posting a lot about the Mk 12 program over the last year or so but there really aren't that many people on the NSW side doing the same, and he doesn't really know or care too much about the Mk 12 Mod 1 development cycle since that wasn't his project. There does seem to be a lot of new information coming out about these rifles lately though, so hopefully someone who was involved with the NSW rifles decides to share their story like Steve did.      |
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Originally Posted By TinyCrumb: These specific cans I believe are the first documented record of NSWDG specifically getting Ops cans. And the timeline is very close to the Mk 12 program, closer than you'd think. I can't mention the specific date here for privacy reasons but it was after GWOT started if that helps. Originally Posted By TinyCrumb: These specific cans I believe are the first documented record of NSWDG specifically getting Ops cans. And the timeline is very close to the Mk 12 program, closer than you'd think. I can't mention the specific date here for privacy reasons but it was after GWOT started if that helps. I'm not sure that nswdg got their first ops cans after the start of the gwot - Craig Sawyer's recce was fitted with either a 3rd model or some adjacent generation of ops can and if memory serves he left nswdg before 9/11 happened. But yeah, the Mk12 development runs essentially concomitant with the different SMU's development of precision 556 uppers. I think Bartocci places the start of the spr programme around 1999 and then it gets an NSN around 2003. Edit: the post above is the 99 model Bartocci refers to. Originally Posted By TinyCrumb: The dimpled carbine SR-25 is a unicorn of mine so I'd definitely love to do a deep dive into them at some point. I just recently finally got a pic of the first 16" I've seen, most that I had seen before were 14.5s. I only know of 2 cans in civi hands so that's a bit tough but where there's a will there's a way… maybe. You might find someone at KAC willing to sit down for this - way back in the day on this forum Ret. Col. Lutz shared some pretty interesting insights on how army/navy requirements drove the '25 carbine development. |
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Originally Posted By kemp: Just for the record, i called this back in 2018 (!) and nobody here wanted to believe me Edited for link to original discussion Makes sense why we never saw one without the can and with the collar. Scaling Sheffield's rig that suppressor seems to be 9-1/4"ish. I honestly just saw that MTX dudes rig and rolled with it. If someone sends me the correct info I'll update the OP. |
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Originally Posted By Eyekahn: Makes sense why we never saw one without the can and with the collar. Scaling Sheffield's rig that suppressor seems to be 9-1/4"ish. I honestly just saw that MTX dudes rig and rolled with it. If someone sends me the correct info I'll update the OP. |
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Originally Posted By thatARMSguy: Allen Engineering has been heavily teasing that they're releasing the correct can and collar assembly for the normal 16"/17"/whatever Lilja thinks it is barrel, should be a week or two It looks like the collar is either a taper mount gas block or a slide-on collar that butts up against the LPGB face. Variations of this have been available for some time, but we'll see. |
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https://www.aesuppressors.com/2025/06/26/seberger-special/ Some bread crumbs… I think the cans were Seberger Special’s marked just “M4”…. “Since OPS/AE legacy suppressors were handmade, they were easy to customize. This was ideal when working with the military—Phil and Ron could quickly adapt designs for specific requests. Depending on the platform, they could lengthen or shorten the first sections and baffle stacks, which resulted in a wide range of suppressor variations.” “Back in the OPS days, Phil would mark some cans as “M4” without much rhyme or reason. We’ve seen suppressors with the same construction as the 12th or 15th Models marked as M4, and we’ve also seen unusual suppressors that don’t align with modern models bearing the same mark.” |
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Originally Posted By Marz1024: https://www.aesuppressors.com/2025/06/26/seberger-special/ Some bread crumbs… I think the cans were Seberger Special’s marked just “M4”…. “Since OPS/AE legacy suppressors were handmade, they were easy to customize. This was ideal when working with the military—Phil and Ron could quickly adapt designs for specific requests. Depending on the platform, they could lengthen or shorten the first sections and baffle stacks, which resulted in a wide range of suppressor variations.” “Back in the OPS days, Phil would mark some cans as “M4” without much rhyme or reason. We’ve seen suppressors with the same construction as the 12th or 15th Models marked as M4, and we’ve also seen unusual suppressors that don’t align with modern models bearing the same mark.” My OPS 12th model is marked "M4". |
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Here we go… AE is offering the suppressors, barrels, and collars as a limited run kit. 2 batches of 25 kits are to be released, with the first run in October/November. Cans will be black oxide, collars stainless steel, and Lilja Barrels will be properly marked M4, all like the originals. https://www.aesuppressors.com/product/m4-recce-kit/ |
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Originally Posted By Marz1024: Here we go… AE is offering the suppressors, barrels, and collars as a limited run kit. 2 batches of 25 kits are to be released, with the first run in October/November. Cans will be black oxide, collars stainless steel, and Lilja Barrels will be properly marked M4, all like the originals. https://www.aesuppressors.com/product/m4-recce-kit/ So, I guess this thread will be regulated to potentially the same 50 rifles over and over again 
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Originally Posted By Marz1024: Here we go… AE is offering the suppressors, barrels, and collars as a limited run kit. 2 batches of 25 kits are to be released, with the first run in October/November. Cans will be black oxide, collars stainless steel, and Lilja Barrels will be properly marked M4, all like the originals. https://www.aesuppressors.com/product/m4-recce-kit/ "This kit is to upgrade your current 15.1″ Recce build to the correct suppressor and barrel setup." Yeah no biggie just another $1600 after buying the wrong setup but act fast or who knows, maybe Wet Worx will do another run for $2400 a year later Maybe KAC can sell all their discontinued designs to SR25 Cartel and nuke the KAC reseller market and give GWOT clones like this a chance to keep being done |
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Originally Posted By medieval_flail: "This kit is to upgrade your current 15.1″ Recce build to the correct suppressor and barrel setup." Yeah no biggie just another $1600 after buying the wrong setup but act fast or who knows, maybe Wet Worx will do another run for $2400 a year later I agree on the Wet Worx comment. To be fair though, I highly doubly AE had any idea what the real setup was. Ron isn’t a clone nerd, so he probably didn’t know what individual units were running. Shit, even Tiny Crumb didn’t know and he’s been an authority on this stuff well before I got into clones. Sometimes new information comes to light. It’s nice that AE is offering this and the price is in line with what I expected. I’m planning on just lying to you guys and saying mine is correct. |
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After comparing the "quality" of Lilja's .308 barrel extension to other offerings, like the Young I ended up going with, I won't be spending $650 or whatever they charge for a recce carbine barrel. I'll be keeping my 15.1 exactly like it is. Here's that Lilja barrel extension I was talking shit about, paired with a Knight's SR25 bolt.   |
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Originally Posted By RTUtah: After comparing the "quality" of Lilja's .308 barrel extension to other offerings, like the Young I ended up going with, I won't be spending $650 or whatever they charge for a recce carbine barrel. I'll be keeping my 15.1 exactly like it is. Here's that Lilja barrel extension I was talking shit about, paired with a Knight's SR25 bolt. https://i.imgur.com/F6vMyZs.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/Sq9N2AS.jpeg Gumsmiff-fit. Gotta file on it.
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Originally Posted By RTUtah: After comparing the "quality" of Lilja's .308 barrel extension to other offerings, like the Young I ended up going with, I won't be spending $650 or whatever they charge for a recce carbine barrel. I'll be keeping my 15.1 exactly like it is. Here's that Lilja barrel extension I was talking shit about, paired with a Knight's SR25 bolt. https://i.imgur.com/F6vMyZs.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/Sq9N2AS.jpeg I also had significant issues with my Lilja barrel extension on my 15.1, I was offered no recourse by Lilja for corrections. I’m interested to see how the new one compares to my reworked Thermal fit 15.1, I have a feeling I’ll be doing a barrel extension again to get the fit and finish to my standards. https://imgur.com/a/D3lhWIg |
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Originally Posted By WTFShane: OG recce still relevant? I'm bummed out I won't be able to purchase that AE recce kit. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54766710616_19aa743331_b.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50231073191_195c78b2e4_b.jpg Always has been, as it turns out, they are all OG Recces…. https://imgur.com/a/ufxhIEX |
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Originally Posted By Marz1024: I also had significant issues with my Lilja barrel extension on my 15.1, I was offered no recourse by Lilja for corrections. I’m interested to see how the new one compares to my reworked Thermal fit 15.1, I have a feeling I’ll be doing a barrel extension again to get the fit and finish to my standards. https://imgur.com/a/D3lhWIg Originally Posted By Marz1024: Originally Posted By RTUtah: After comparing the "quality" of Lilja's .308 barrel extension to other offerings, like the Young I ended up going with, I won't be spending $650 or whatever they charge for a recce carbine barrel. I'll be keeping my 15.1 exactly like it is. Here's that Lilja barrel extension I was talking shit about, paired with a Knight's SR25 bolt. https://i.imgur.com/F6vMyZs.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/Sq9N2AS.jpeg I also had significant issues with my Lilja barrel extension on my 15.1, I was offered no recourse by Lilja for corrections. I’m interested to see how the new one compares to my reworked Thermal fit 15.1, I have a feeling I’ll be doing a barrel extension again to get the fit and finish to my standards. https://imgur.com/a/D3lhWIg I had D Wilson polish mine for $15 but it's still ridiculous. The issue is he CNCs them or something so they're super bizarrely rough. I don't know what it would actually do to bolt longevity but for the price it's absurd. Still haven't shot mine cause I want a bipod and the can but I expect the accuracy is phenomenal. |
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Originally Posted By WTFShane: OG recce still relevant? I'm bummed out I won't be able to purchase that AE recce kit. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54766710616_19aa743331_b.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50231073191_195c78b2e4_b.jpg Of course! I'd say even more relevant! And if your barrel is uncut/unmodified you wouldn't need the whole kit, you'd only need the suppressor when they become available. The coating wouldn't matter if you're going to rattle can it anyway. For your scope, that a 2.5-8 or 3.5-10? Great build. |
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Originally Posted By TinyCrumb: Of course! I'd say even more relevant! And if your barrel is uncut/unmodified you wouldn't need the whole kit, you'd only need the suppressor when they become available. The coating wouldn't matter if you're going to rattle can it anyway. For your scope, that a 2.5-8 or 3.5-10? Great build. 3.5-10x40mm |
NSWDG/Delta/AFSOC Recce Clone Picture and Discussion Thread (Page 133 of 137)
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