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User Panel
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FL, USA
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Posted: 7/7/2024 4:49:20 PM EDT
I started putting my SBR together. Just got my full BCM lower and in I am process of getting full BCM 11.5 BFH upper MK2.
My lower: Bravo Company Manufacturing Complete AR-15 Lower Receiver Assembly with Mod 0 Stock. https://www.primaryarms.com/bravo-company-mfg-complete-lower-receiver-assembly-gunfighter-stock-bcm-lrg-stk-mod-0-blk Can I remove the stock and put SBA3 brace and start that as a pistol, with that BCM lower and upper? I like to submit Form 1 and make it SBR later? Will that BCM lower will I need to put any additional engravings on it? Will all that work? Thank you. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 4:56:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Firestarter123]
[#1]
If there is any way for the .gov to prove it was sold with a stock on it then you shouldn’t try to make it a pistol as you can go pistol to rifle but not the other way around.
You should wait for the Form 1 to be approved for it to be 100% legal in this case. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 7/7/2024 5:24:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Thank you for the valuable information. I will have to wait for the form 1.
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Posted: 7/7/2024 5:25:39 PM EDT
[#3]
That is a Rifle stocked lower.
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Posted: 7/7/2024 5:30:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: D_Man]
[#4]
Originally Posted By Firestarter123: If there is any way for the .gov to prove it was sold with a stock on it then you shouldn't try to make it a pistol as you can go pistol to rifle but not the other way around. You need to wait for the Form 1 to be approved for it to be 100% legal in this case. Originally Posted By Ike838: That is a Rifle stocked lower. So yes OP, you can but this, remove the stock and put on a brace, and then attach the short upper to make it a pistol. You just have to do it in that order, and if you wanted to be extra careful store the stock with a friend or something so it's not in your possession unless you have another rifle that could use it. ETA the relevant ATF letter on this, it was back before braces were a thing so it references a smooth buffer tube, but the legal reasoning is the same:  |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 5:39:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Firestarter123]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By D_Man: These are incorrect. Having a stock attached to the lower from the manufacturer does not make the lower a rifle. It needs to have an upper attached with a rifled barrel to satisfy the definition of a "rifle". That lower with a stock will transfer as a "receiver/other firearm". So yes OP, you can but this, remove the stock and put on a brace, and then attach the short upper to make it a pistol. You just have to do it in that order, and if you wanted to be extra careful store the stock with a friend or something so it's not in your possession unless you have another rifle that could use it. ETA the relevant ATF letter on this, it was back before braces were a thing so it references a smooth buffer tube, but the legal reasoning is the same: https://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=26635 Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By D_Man: Originally Posted By Firestarter123: If there is any way for the .gov to prove it was sold with a stock on it then you shouldn't try to make it a pistol as you can go pistol to rifle but not the other way around. You need to wait for the Form 1 to be approved for it to be 100% legal in this case. Originally Posted By Ike838: That is a Rifle stocked lower. So yes OP, you can but this, remove the stock and put on a brace, and then attach the short upper to make it a pistol. You just have to do it in that order, and if you wanted to be extra careful store the stock with a friend or something so it's not in your possession unless you have another rifle that could use it. ETA the relevant ATF letter on this, it was back before braces were a thing so it references a smooth buffer tube, but the legal reasoning is the same: https://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=26635 That letter is only technically valid for the person that submitted it and it’s 10+ years only now. I wouldn’t do it unless I knew for a fact that the lower was transferred as “Other” and not transferred as a “Rifle” on the 4473 though. I’m just not a big fan of risking fines and/or jail though rather than just waiting a couple of months to assemble the rifle. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 5:43:18 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Firestarter123: That letter is only valid for the person that submitted it and it's 10+ years only now. I wouldn't do it unless I knew for a fact that the lower was transferred as "Other" and not transferred as a "Rifle" on the 4473 though. I'm just not a big fan of risking fines and/or jail though rather than just waiting a couple of months to assemble the rifle.  And even if the FFL did screw that up on the 4473, it doesn't matter. That receiver is not a rifle, and it's new from the manufacturer as was never a rifle before, so the "first a rifle..." rule doesn't apply to it. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 7/7/2024 9:10:31 PM EDT
[#7]
That what I initially thought .The FFL transfer did not stated it was or is a rifle. I got it on gun broker as it was sold out everywhere I looked. Great information.. I only wanted to test it as the pistol until I get the form 1. Thank you.
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MN, USA
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Posted: 7/8/2024 12:16:03 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Firestarter123: If there is any way for the .gov to prove it was sold with a stock on it then you shouldn’t try to make it a pistol as you can go pistol to rifle but not the other way around. You should wait for the Form 1 to be approved for it to be 100% legal in this case. A stock does not make a rifle. You only have a rifle when you have a stocked lower attached to an upper with a barrel longer than 16" in length. A lower is a lower and nothing else, and should have been reported on the 4473 as such. As long a a lower is built as a pistol FIRST it can be swapped freely back and forth from rifle to pistol. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 7/8/2024 12:16:36 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ike838: That is a Rifle stocked lower. which means nothing |
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Posted: 7/8/2024 1:42:53 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Firestarter123: That letter is only technically valid for the person that submitted it and it’s 10+ years only now. I wouldn’t do it unless I knew for a fact that the lower was transferred as “Other” and not transferred as a “Rifle” on the 4473 though. I’m just not a big fan of risking fines and/or jail though rather than just waiting a couple of months to assemble the rifle. D_Man is correct. While that letter is old, ATF Rulings are current. 2011-4 - Pistols Configured from Rifles; Rifles Configured from Pistols |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 7/8/2024 5:57:30 PM EDT
[#11]
OK, it sounds like this has been answered, so let me ask another question, more of a 'thought exercise'.
Let's say I F1 a rifle into an SBR, since the lower is the registered part but I have not cut the barrel. Is it still a rifle, or is it an SBR? Since in the eyes of the AFT (the F1 was approved) it is an approved SBR, can I leave the barrel long. If I want it shorten can a person take it to their neighbor who has a hacksaw and shorten the barrel (not FFL7 or whatever), or does it have to go the proper FFL7 gunsmith? I don't know all the terms, but the earlier thread got me to thinking about a SBR with a long barrel. |
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Posted: 7/8/2024 6:00:56 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bmarshall1: OK, it sounds like this has been answered, so let me ask another question, more of a 'thought exercise'. Let's say I F1 a rifle into an SBR, since the lower is the registered part but I have not cut the barrel. Is it still a rifle, or is it an SBR? Since in the eyes of the AFT (the F1 was approved) it is an approved SBR, can I leave the barrel long. If I want it shorten can a person take it to their neighbor who has a hacksaw and shorten the barrel (not FFL7 or whatever), or does it have to go the proper FFL7 gunsmith? I don't know all the terms, but the earlier thread got me to thinking about a SBR with a long barrel. Additionally, even after you make it into the SBR, if you swap the upper on that lower to one with a 16" barrel, it's now again just a regular rifle, because it's not in SBR configuration. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 7/8/2024 6:14:38 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By D_Man: It's not considered an SBR unless it's in and SBR configuration. So if you get the approved Form 1 for that rifle, and haven't cut the barrel, then the SBR has not yet been made and it's still just a regular rifle. Additionally, even after you make it into the SBR, if you swap the upper on that lower to one with a 16" barrel, it's now again just a regular rifle, because it's not in SBR configuration. Thanks @D_Man It sounds more like the total 'configuration' is the SBR, not the lower in and of itself. |
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Posted: 7/8/2024 7:06:42 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bmarshall1: Thanks @D_Man It sounds more like the total 'configuration' is the SBR, not the lower in and of itself. Exactly. Same with an SBS. |
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Posted: 7/9/2024 9:47:54 AM EDT
[#15]
Why not go straight to a short barreled rifle from the beginning? The turn around time on those approvals is pretty fast right now. It costs almost as much as a brace, and it avoids any discussion of “rifle to pistol”.
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IL, USA
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Posted: 7/9/2024 10:15:30 AM EDT
[#16]
During salad days, that is how I ordered several complete lowers from PSA. They would have rifle stocks on them, but I didn't care. The 4473 would be marked "other", and I turned them into pistols. The original stocks (back when everything came with an MOE or classic stock) went into the spare parts bin.
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IL, USA
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Posted: 7/9/2024 10:18:33 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By durtychemist: Why not go straight to a short barreled rifle from the beginning? The turn around time on those approvals is pretty fast right now. It costs almost as much as a brace, and it avoids any discussion of “rifle to pistol”. A brace isn't needed to make it a pistol. Slap an upper on it without a stock, and it is pistol. No extra work. It is just that no one wants to cheek a plain buffertube over a brace. |
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Posted: 7/9/2024 10:47:47 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By panthermark: A brace isn't needed to make it a pistol. Slap an upper on it without a stock, and it is pistol. No extra work. It is just that no one wants to cheek a plain buffertube over a brace. Why move it to a pistol from a brace? You get everything you want from the brace, or you could simply file a $200 fee and go class 3 short barreled rifle from the start. Skip the step of buying a brace and go straight to the finish line. This seems like a conversation for the ARMORY, not the pistol area. He wants a short barreled rifle. He wants to convert a rifle to a pistol then to a class 3 rifle. |
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Posted: 7/9/2024 11:34:48 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By durtychemist: He wants to convert a rifle to a pistol then to a class 3 rifle. As for why do pistol before getting the SBR filed, it's very common that people do this to make sure the combination of their parts work together and there's no out of spec issues, especially with the lower itself. It'd be a waist to file that $200 tax and pay to have it engraved, only then to discover after the fact it has an out of spec lower or some other major issue. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 7/9/2024 11:54:24 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By panthermark: A brace isn't needed to make it a pistol. Slap an upper on it without a stock, and it is pistol. No extra work. It is just that no one wants to cheek a plain buffertube over a brace. Exactly. And the reason to do so is to allow the re-configuration to a rifle and back. I will continue to keep mine pistols with braces as they work just as well as an SBR without the fine, fingerprints and permission form. Also, I can have a loaded "pistol" on the seat of my pickup truck under CCW regs, not so with an SBR. No engraving, no issues crossing state lines, no hassles. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 7/18/2024 8:10:17 AM EDT
[#21]
OP,
Was the lower sold to you as used? With it coming from gunbroker i would not build it as a pistol unless you could have proof that it left BCM as a "receiver/lower". If it left as a rifle, in rifle form then it would not matter how your dealer transferred it. |
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