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Posted: 10/8/2024 1:10:17 AM EDT
I'm redoing my truck gun. Going with a 12.5. Figure around $300 for the barrel. Obvious candidates criterion, triarc, centurion, geissele, DD, solgw etc. Kind of leaning towards another triarc, but open to advice. I have a triarc and a criterion and like both. This will be suppressed about half the time.
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Posted: 10/8/2024 1:13:03 AM EDT
[#1]
I’d just get a Geissele complete upper or gun at this point.
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AK, USA
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Posted: 10/8/2024 1:15:24 AM EDT
[#2]
I went with Centurion for my 12.5 upper build. I have been very happy with it. Very much a "truck gun" vibe. That said, I'd probably sooner just drop $500 on a Ruger Ranch if I was going to leave it in my vehicle.
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Posted: 10/8/2024 1:17:09 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: I’d just get a Geissele complete upper or gun at this point. Already have a lower and stripped BCM upper. Complete gun is out. Not my thing anyway. Geissele barrel's on the table though |
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Posted: 10/8/2024 1:22:33 AM EDT
[#4]
I much prefer the gas port sizes Geissele uses in complete uppers and guns instead of stripped barrels, which is why I mention it.
Also, I found a complete 12.5 upper for $999 so there’s that. Can’t hardly build similar for less. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 10/8/2024 1:23:20 AM EDT
[#5]
Triarc if going suppressed. Those ML gas setup 12.5s are the bees knees with a can.
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Posted: 10/8/2024 1:28:04 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Middlelength: I went with Centurion for my 12.5 upper build. I have been very happy with it. Very much a "truck gun" vibe. That said, I'd probably sooner just drop $500 on a Ruger Ranch if I was going to leave it in my vehicle. I went with a super cheap psa for "truck gun". It's kinda pissing me off, so it's getting replaced. Nothing against truck gun or PSA. Just want to do better. I figure decent barrel, good trigger and an aimpoint I have doing nothing. Same process everyone goes through. Just hung up on the barrel |
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Posted: 10/8/2024 1:32:43 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 42tula: Triarc if going suppressed. Those ML gas setup 12.5s are the bees knees with a can. My triarc is a 14.5. So, not same, but it's only happy with a std buffer unsuppressed. Kind of the reason I'm leaning that way. It's reliable without the can, but it's definitely conservative |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 10/8/2024 2:54:53 AM EDT
[#8]
I have a Geissele CHF 12.5 barreled upper and a Centurion lightweight 12.5 barreled upper. Both run great suppressed and unsuppressed, and I like them both. I've shot a few 2 gun matches with the top rifle, one of them being a night match that was white light only, and it ran like a champ. I'm going to try the tanodized rifle at the next few 2 gun matches and see how it does. If I had to pick one to keep, it would be the tano build since I really don't need two 12.5 in. barreled rifles.
Geissele 12.5 in. Barrel, BCM blem Upper, Hodge 11.5 in. Handguard, SBR'd Aero lower with a LaRue trigger, BCM MK2 A5 Buffer kit w/ A5H2 buffer and Sprinco Green Spring, Griffin Armament Recce 5 suppressor  Geissele 12.5 Barrel by James H., on FlickrCenturion 12.5 in. lightweight barrel, Geissele upper and SBR'd lower, Geissele MK8 10.5 in. handguard and SSA-E trigger, Aero Kodiak Brown carbine buffer tube, Geissele Super 42 spring w/ H2 buffer, Surefire RC-2 suppressor  12.5 Centurion Barrel by James H., on Flickr
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Posted: 10/8/2024 3:35:20 AM EDT
[#9]
I'm a fan of criterion
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Posted: 10/8/2024 3:45:25 AM EDT
[#10]
I never paid attention to Criterion past learning they were 8 twist.
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USA
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Posted: 10/8/2024 7:15:57 PM EDT
[#11]
My 12.5" is my go-to, can only take one setup. Very happy with the Criterion Core
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MP, USA
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Posted: 10/8/2024 8:29:03 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: I’d just get a Geissele complete upper or gun at this point. This is my recommendation. |
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Posted: 10/8/2024 8:37:04 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Middlelength: I went with Centurion for my 12.5 upper build. I have been very happy with it. Very much a "truck gun" vibe. That said, I'd probably sooner just drop $500 on a Ruger Ranch if I was going to leave it in my vehicle. I have a Ruger Ranch and use it on the farm pretty often. I toss it in the side by side or have it in the truck. I have had to take out yotes, a dog who killed some ducks, coatimundi and other stuff. It is handy and accurate and I can beat the snot out of it and not care less. I would not, and will not, leave a weapon in my vehicle out of my sight and hope for the best. It is within an arms reach, or in the safe |
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Posted: 10/8/2024 10:08:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: I much prefer the gas port sizes Geissele uses in complete uppers and guns instead of stripped barrels, which is why I mention it. Also, I found a complete 12.5 upper for $999 so there’s that. Can’t hardly build similar for less. I came here to post literally *exactly* this. |
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Posted: 10/8/2024 10:34:52 PM EDT
[#15]
Both of my Rosco 12.5s have been great, esp for not much more than $100. I’d put them up there with the far more expensive brands.
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Posted: 10/9/2024 8:33:45 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: I never paid attention to Criterion past learning they were 8 twist. Most of my best shooters of heavy grain are 8 twist, including a pair of Criterions that are very consistent MOA shooters with AAC 75. |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 8:51:38 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doty_soty: Most of my best shooters of heavy grain are 8 twist, including a pair of Criterions that are very consistent MOA shooters with AAC 75. How do they do with 70gr monometals? |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 9:59:22 AM EDT
[#18]
11.5 makes more sense, 12.5 gains nothing but adding and inch.
 12.5" is the Bastard Sword of ARs |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 10/9/2024 9:59:42 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Claytonhoneyberry: Both of my Rosco 12.5s have been great, esp for not much more than $100. I’d put them up there with the far more expensive brands. Yup, I have a Rocco/Sage Dynamics 12.5 Patrol length gas barrel. Shoots a little smoother, still runs unsuppressed too. I like it. |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 10:07:34 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blacktoothgrin: 11.5 makes more sense, 12.5 gains nothing but adding and inch.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO3Rdshdj2012.5 is best .5 https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Suppressed-5-56-SBR-Velocity-Tests-41-Factory-Loads-from-10-5-11-5-12-5-and-14-5-ALL-DONE-/16-714088/ |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 10:12:10 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: I never paid attention to Criterion past learning they were 8 twist. Why? That will stabilize anything you can load to magazine length. |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 10:18:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: rock71]
[#22]
I have a reflex style can. I need about 3” in front of the gas block and 12.5” is the shortest way to get that. I built this with a BKF barrel, from a Black Friday sale. It runs like a champ. I like the length. I don’t know why it isn’t more popular.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 10:43:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: WUPHF]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blacktoothgrin: 11.5 makes more sense, 12.5 gains nothing but adding and inch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO3Rdshdj20Here’s the data I’ve compiled from an 11.5” SR15 vs. a 12.5” Centurion barreled build. I have other velocity data, but they weren’t shot on the same day, so it’s not listed. 77gr TMK handload - 95fps 11.5”: 2372fps 12.5”: 2467fps 77gr Magtech Mk262 - 155fps 11.5”: 2361fps 12.5”: 2516fps 55gr Wolf Gold - 181fps 11.5”: 2576fps 12.5”: 2757fps I’ve shot both extensively, at distance, and there is definitely a noticeable difference, as the numbers bear out. Conversely, jumping another 2” to 14.5” only adds about 75fps with the TMK load and 65fps with the Mk262 load, much less bang for your buck. Both the points Hop brings up in that video are extremely subjective and ignore the main reason you’d choose to go with a 12.5”. If velocity isn’t a large consideration for a particular gun/build, then by all means go with something shorter (FWIW, I own and use 10.5, 11.5, and 12.5 in 5.56).  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 11:50:12 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blacktoothgrin: 11.5 makes more sense, 12.5 gains nothing but adding and inch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO3Rdshdj20I love my 11.5, but the extra inch isn't going to hurt on a truck gun and the velocity gains are real. |
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AK, USA
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Posted: 10/9/2024 12:10:09 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blacktoothgrin: 11.5 makes more sense, 12.5 gains nothing but adding and inch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO3Rdshdj2012.5, depending on your setup, gets you another inch of rail space, and 30-50 FPS MV, and, in most cases, a better recoil impulse than the super short guns. You're also burning a little more powder and so muzzle flash isn't quite the same firework display. That said, an inch represents less than a 10% difference between 11.5 and 12.5, so I think it is clearly shooter's choice. If NFA wasn't a thing, or wasn't so ass-backwards, you'd probably see 12.5 or 14.5 as the default AR offering. |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 1:23:05 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: How do they do with 70gr monometals? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By doty_soty: Most of my best shooters of heavy grain are 8 twist, including a pair of Criterions that are very consistent MOA shooters with AAC 75. How do they do with 70gr monometals? I don’t think I’ve ever shot more than a few groups, and it was AAC loaded Barnes. From memory it shot ok, not great, but Barnes has never been a laser compared to stuff like SST and TMK, at least for me. I remember it being maybe an inch and a half from a 16” Core I had at the time. I wish I had more info but I don’t shoot much monometals. The things I kill die just fine with cheap ammo lol |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 1:25:44 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Middlelength: 12.5, depending on your setup, gets you another inch of rail space, and 30-50 FPS MV, and, in most cases, a better recoil impulse than the super short guns. You're also burning a little more powder and so muzzle flash isn't quite the same firework display. That said, an inch represents less than a 10% difference between 11.5 and 12.5, so I think it is clearly shooter's choice. If NFA wasn't a thing, or wasn't so ass-backwards, you'd probably see 12.5 or 14.5 as the default AR offering. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Middlelength: Originally Posted By Blacktoothgrin: 11.5 makes more sense, 12.5 gains nothing but adding and inch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO3Rdshdj2012.5, depending on your setup, gets you another inch of rail space, and 30-50 FPS MV, and, in most cases, a better recoil impulse than the super short guns. You're also burning a little more powder and so muzzle flash isn't quite the same firework display. That said, an inch represents less than a 10% difference between 11.5 and 12.5, so I think it is clearly shooter's choice. If NFA wasn't a thing, or wasn't so ass-backwards, you'd probably see 12.5 or 14.5 as the default AR offering. Depends on your wants I guess, but for me that added inch really does give some added range, and it’s only one inch longer. Unless you’re indoors a lot, which is absolutely a thing for some people and their profession, the 12.5 is a great trade off for keeping a rifle short but still having some legs. The ammo I use will still frag out to about 250m, and warmly loaded TMKs will get out a good bit further. That’s certainly nothing to sneeze at. |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 10/9/2024 1:33:06 PM EDT
[#28]
Looking to also build a 12.5, and been eyeing the Sionics.
https://sionicsweaponsystems.com/lawenforcement/sionics-12-5-barrel/ |
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USA
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Posted: 10/9/2024 1:49:22 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: Here’s the data I’ve compiled from an 11.5” SR15 vs. a 12.5” Centurion barreled build. I have other velocity data, but they weren’t shot on the same day, so it’s not listed. 77gr TMK handload - 95fps 11.5”: 2372fps 12.5”: 2467fps 77gr Magtech Mk262 - 155fps 11.5”: 2361fps 12.5”: 2516fps 55gr Wolf Gold - 181fps 11.5”: 2576fps 12.5”: 2757fps I’ve shot both extensively, at distance, and there is definitely a noticeable difference, as the numbers bear out. Conversely, jumping another 2” to 14.5” only adds about 75fps with the TMK load and 65fps with the Mk262 load, much less bang for your buck. Both the points Hop brings up in that video are extremely subjective and ignore the main reason you’d choose to go with a 12.5”. If velocity isn’t a large consideration for a particular gun/build, then by all means go with something shorter (FWIW, I own and use 10.5, 11.5, and 12.5 in 5.56). https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/294984/IMG_8573_jpeg-3344627.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/294984/IMG_8260_jpeg-3344629.JPG What suppressor covers are those? |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 2:11:25 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Why? That will stabilize anything you can load to magazine length. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott: I never paid attention to Criterion past learning they were 8 twist. Why? That will stabilize anything you can load to magazine length. Stable enough to not keyhole. But there’s more to it than that. |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 2:28:24 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Stable enough to not keyhole. But there’s more to it than that. ...what? 12.5 criterion with griffin explorr 77gr bha red box avg 2650 60es 24sd 69gr tmk bha avg 2710 50es 15sd 75gr bla shell shock avg 2750 80es 22sd 77gr aac otm avg 2550 40es 10sd All the above will consistently print within 1moa 5 round groups. The black hills 77 and badlands 75 have been pushed to 800 on several occasions with realitive ease. |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 2:48:54 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMA: What suppressor covers are those? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMA: Originally Posted By WUPHF: Here’s the data I’ve compiled from an 11.5” SR15 vs. a 12.5” Centurion barreled build. I have other velocity data, but they weren’t shot on the same day, so it’s not listed. 77gr TMK handload - 95fps 11.5”: 2372fps 12.5”: 2467fps 77gr Magtech Mk262 - 155fps 11.5”: 2361fps 12.5”: 2516fps 55gr Wolf Gold - 181fps 11.5”: 2576fps 12.5”: 2757fps I’ve shot both extensively, at distance, and there is definitely a noticeable difference, as the numbers bear out. Conversely, jumping another 2” to 14.5” only adds about 75fps with the TMK load and 65fps with the Mk262 load, much less bang for your buck. Both the points Hop brings up in that video are extremely subjective and ignore the main reason you’d choose to go with a 12.5”. If velocity isn’t a large consideration for a particular gun/build, then by all means go with something shorter (FWIW, I own and use 10.5, 11.5, and 12.5 in 5.56). https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/294984/IMG_8573_jpeg-3344627.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/294984/IMG_8260_jpeg-3344629.JPG What suppressor covers are those? Manta |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 3:16:40 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: I’ve shot both extensively, at distance, and there is definitely a noticeable difference,... How so? |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 3:18:03 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Stowe: I love my 11.5, but the extra inch isn't going to hurt on a truck gun and the velocity gains are real. With that logic why not a 16"? |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 3:27:15 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blacktoothgrin: With that logic why not a 16"? Because I don't want a 3rd 16" |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 3:36:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: hoody2shoez]
[#36]
12.5 velocities
All the badlands where the new lot except for the apr 8 one  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 3:39:48 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hoody2shoez: ...what? 12.5 criterion with griffin explorr 77gr bha red box avg 2650 60es 24sd 69gr tmk bha avg 2710 50es 15sd 75gr bla shell shock avg 2750 80es 22sd 77gr aac otm avg 2550 40es 10sd All the above will consistently print within 1moa 5 round groups. The black hills 77 and badlands 75 have been pushed to 800 on several occasions with realitive ease. Did published BC track for you to 800? Because with stability factor in the 1.3x range you should be losing some BC. |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 3:40:40 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Stowe: Because I don't want a 3rd 16" Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Stowe: Originally Posted By Blacktoothgrin: With that logic why not a 16"? Because I don't want a 3rd 16" You made me check, I’m up to seven 16”ers just in 5.56. It’s a useful general use length. I mean I guess they all are within their own strengths. Most of mine in that category have some type of MPVO and a full-size can, so they’re not super small but they’re still not too big and bring a lot to the table in capability. |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 3:48:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: hoody2shoez]
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Did published BC track for you to 800? Because with stability factor in the 1.3x range you should be losing some BC. For the 77gr smk...  Attached File...75gr hornady (badlands)  Attached FileThey matched strelok just fine at 800 Edit***77gr smk plugged into berger for comparison  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 3:56:38 PM EDT
[#40]
Yeah I’m asking about the 70TSX which has a stability factor under 1.4 from an SBR. I don’t doubt 1/7 can handle a 77, which is shorter.
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Posted: 10/9/2024 4:03:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: hoody2shoez]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Yeah I’m asking about the 70TSX which has a stability factor under 1.4 from an SBR. I don’t doubt 1/7 can handle a 77, which is shorter. ...you asked about shooting a soft, solid copper monolithic bullet in a .223/556 load out to 800 and inquired about the BC... you can have all the stability in the world and that bullet is still going to perform poorly at 800 in any length 556 gun regardless of twist. If you use this as designed within a 300y or so it won't matter. |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 4:10:45 PM EDT
[#42]
I didn’t say it’s the right bullet I asked if the BC holds up when it’s not spun hard enough. And it works fine to 600 or 700m anyway.
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Posted: 10/9/2024 4:56:07 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blacktoothgrin: How so? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blacktoothgrin: Originally Posted By WUPHF: I’ve shot both extensively, at distance, and there is definitely a noticeable difference,... How so? The velocity numbers I posted should paint a pretty clear picture…… |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 4:56:42 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blacktoothgrin: With that logic why not a 16"? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blacktoothgrin: Originally Posted By Stowe: I love my 11.5, but the extra inch isn't going to hurt on a truck gun and the velocity gains are real. With that logic why not a 16"? Because 1 is a hell of a lot less than 4.5? |
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Posted: 10/9/2024 5:49:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Luny421]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: The velocity numbers I posted should paint a pretty clear picture…… Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: Originally Posted By Blacktoothgrin: Originally Posted By WUPHF: I’ve shot both extensively, at distance, and there is definitely a noticeable difference,... How so? The velocity numbers I posted should paint a pretty clear picture…… To expand on what you posted, the link I posted is a thread with velocity numbers for 40 different factory loads from various short barrels. Lots of good info there. |
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Posted: 10/10/2024 12:47:41 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: The velocity numbers I posted should paint a pretty clear picture…… Thought maybe you were referring to more than velocity alone. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/10/2024 12:50:31 PM EDT
[#47]
My Triarc 12.5 is slower than my BCM 11.5 which is certainly disappointing.
I've not decided if I'll keep it. I need to wring it out a bit more. |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 10/10/2024 12:59:03 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By THellURider: My Triarc 12.5 is slower than my BCM 11.5 which is certainly disappointing. I've not decided if I'll keep it. I need to wring it out a bit more. What would cause that? Dimensional differences in the chamber? |
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Posted: 10/10/2024 1:05:55 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blacktoothgrin: Thought maybe you were referring to more than velocity alone. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blacktoothgrin: Originally Posted By WUPHF: The velocity numbers I posted should paint a pretty clear picture…… Thought maybe you were referring to more than velocity alone. What other differences were you expecting to see “at distance?” It has less drop and wind drift. Shooting beyond about 400y, the differences become readily apparent when behind the gun. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/10/2024 1:14:00 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By armednhappy: What would cause that? Dimensional differences in the chamber? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By armednhappy: Originally Posted By THellURider: My Triarc 12.5 is slower than my BCM 11.5 which is certainly disappointing. I've not decided if I'll keep it. I need to wring it out a bit more. What would cause that? Dimensional differences in the chamber? I wish I knew - shot them back to back with the same ammo on the same day - 20 rounds each over a Garmin Xero. Pretty disappointed. Triarc was not particularly helpful, "bring it by" (I'm in DFW). |
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