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going for a 1993 Somalia car15 build and need your help (Page 6 of 90)
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Originally Posted By Razzman1:
OK, so I don't like buying crap from China, but for 5 bucks, I figured I couldn't go wrong. I ordered one of the knock-offs from e-bay, and it showed up a few weeks later. Quality is, I'm sure, not as good as a Surefire, but I'm not kicking in doors, so I think I'll be OK. It seems decent and sturdy, and I think it would take quite a bit of abuse. The only almost-problem I had was that with my pencil thin barrel, the mounting screws that attach the upper and lower brackets were long enough that had I needed to tighten them another 2 or 3 turns, I would have had to cut them a little shorter. I didn't have to, though, so I can't say it was a problem. I happened to have the Weaver mount, so I replaced the scope mount that the light mount came with. http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w307/razzman1/DSCF0013-2.jpg http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w307/razzman1/DSCF0017.jpg All in all, 5 bucks well spent. Excellent carbine! |
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Originally Posted By Razzman1:
OK, so I don't like buying crap from China, but for 5 bucks, I figured I couldn't go wrong. I ordered one of the knock-offs from e-bay, and it showed up a few weeks later. Quality is, I'm sure, not as good as a Surefire, but I'm not kicking in doors, so I think I'll be OK. It seems decent and sturdy, and I think it would take quite a bit of abuse. The only almost-problem I had was that with my pencil thin barrel, the mounting screws that attach the upper and lower brackets were long enough that had I needed to tighten them another 2 or 3 turns, I would have had to cut them a little shorter. I didn't have to, though, so I can't say it was a problem. I happened to have the Weaver mount, so I replaced the scope mount that the light mount came with. http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w307/razzman1/DSCF0013-2.jpg http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w307/razzman1/DSCF0017.jpg All in all, 5 bucks well spent. Beauty bare bones carbine. Shorter screws are available from Surefire for the M16 mount or Home Depot has black hex heads also. |
Here is my 727. I don't think I'm quite finished playing dress-up with it, but I haven't found a light for it yet. Barrel started as a 16" stripped Daniel Defense cut-rifled M4 profile, shortened, reprofiled (near the muzzle) and pinned by ADCO. 14.7" with standard A2 flash hider. The sight is an Aimpoint 5000 on a ARMS #2 mount. Original 2-position receiver extension and stock, original handguards, neutered M16 selector. I know some of these uppers were used on A1 lowers, but I wanted an "all-A2" carbine as a counterpart to my A2 rifle. I plan to also do a 723 eventually on an A1 lower.
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Originally Posted By Engineer5:
I like it! What lower? McKay??? What did you do for a FSB? Correct on the McKay lower. This FSB (cheap and not F-marked). |
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Originally Posted By flatdarkmars:
Originally Posted By Engineer5:
I like it! What lower? McKay??? What did you do for a FSB? Correct on the McKay lower. This FSB (cheap and not F-marked). Did ADCO pin the FSB also? |
-Nemo me impune lacesset.
-Beware the fury of a patient man.
-Thousands and thousands of laws....All for just ten commandments.
-"alot" is not a word.
-Beware the fury of a patient man.
-Thousands and thousands of laws....All for just ten commandments.
-"alot" is not a word.
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Originally Posted By Engineer5:
Did ADCO pin the FSB also? Yes. I was feeling lazy so I just sent them a box full of the loose barrel parts plus the complete upper receiver (I had already installed the port door, rear sight, forward assist) and had them do all the barrel work and assemble the upper. I can barrel my own uppers but it was a minor expense on top of the FSB pinning, cutting, muzzle device work, etc. so I just had them do the whole thing. ETA: Also I had them use correct taper pins for the FSB. Otherwise they normally use straight pins. |
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flatdarkmars - Nice 727! I will have to post some pictures of my late 723 when it is done.
Does anyone know what type of light and mount the Delta Operator on the first page of this thread is using? I believe it is the 10th image down. It looks like it is a bayonet lug mounted light. Has anyone seen these before? |
| That's Jim Smith, Owner of Spartan Tactical and Alaska Extreme Adventures. He was one of two survivors on Super 61. I'm 99.9 percent sure that's an early SureFire 6P with tape swith tailcap. I'll call him in the morning to confirm but thase were the only weapon mounted lights I recall we had in the Mog. |
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It's mounted with the SureFire barrel clamp similar to the modern SureFire part #M20 and light clamp part #M10. I'll look through my parts later to see if I still have one or at least a better picture. If you look at the picture right above the one I think you're referring too (in which Jim is kneeling), you'll notice the clamp.
Here is the original photo (uncropped) taken after some Little Bird aerial platform shooting. 
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| Curious to see what he says, b/c I've looked at this before, and I can't see the barrel clamp in either picture. It's clearly visible in the pic of Eversman and a one or two of the other Rangers, but looking at the pics of Smith both kneeling and standing, there is no clamp on the barrel forward of the front sight base, and there doesn't appear to be a clamp mounted on the barrel under the front sight base either. They aren't the highest res pictures either though. There's pics of a knock off M16 mount on the previous page. The M20 is nearly the same but have the Weaver mount on both sides instead of just one, and the M10 is just a Weaver ring. |
| Alright hive, I talked to Jim today. He confirmed my thoughts about the barrel clamps. Some of the rifles used the mounts I described above and some still had good old hose clamps holding the lights to the hand guards. As we continued to talk, I asked if he had any better photo's then what's on his website as all mine just show sniper rifles and our A2's when we were in the FFP. He said he did and would look at them and get back to me. He then recalled that he may have had a weaver rail mount that was tapped into the side of the bayonet lug or hand guard. This allowed him to attach the weaver ring to it. I'm going to check with my bros at SureFire next week to see if they have any old ones laying around or an old catalog that shows them. I don't recall ever seeing one like this but who knows. |
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Originally Posted By snipertewg:
Alright hive, I talked to Jim today. He confirmed my thoughts about the barrel clamps. Some of the rifles used the mounts I described above and some still had good old hose clamps holding the lights to the hand guards. As we continued to talk, I asked if he had any better photo's then what's on his website as all mine just show sniper rifles and our A2's when we were in the FFP. He said he did and would look at them and get back to me. He then recalled that he may have had a weaver rail mount that was tapped into the side of the bayonet lug or hand guard. This allowed him to attach the weaver ring to it. I'm going to check with my bros at SureFire next week to see if they have any old ones laying around or an old catalog that shows them. I don't recall ever seeing one like this but who knows. Great info, and interesting, really appreciate you and him taking the time to recall these details. It's minutia, but interesting nonetheless. Hose clamps; when I was deployed on a MEU in 2003, I remember some of the Marines in the MSPF security element were still using hose clamps and Maglites LOL. |
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Whatever works. They didn't have a lot of options back then, I'm assuming.
A weaver rail tapped into the bayo lug. Cool! snipertewg: I'm hoping to see some honest to goodness pics!!!! I'd be interested in hearing about what pistols they used, if so and what he liked!!! Details. Hehhehe |
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Originally Posted By Morg308:
I just have one thing to say:  Beautiful 'Early M4'  I think I have an Early M4 upper, I have the corresponding barrel as well, I am killing my A2 carbine BDH build so it can go to a new home and then using a 723 setup instead. Then shifting funds to finish SPRs and MK18 Mod0/1 pistol uppers...
I figure one SOCOM m4 and several pencil 14.5" CARS should be fine, not to mention the m4 gov profile 22LR build 
SEE TOP of PAGE 12 for pictures. This barrel has to be at least PRE-95 as I had one M4 barrel that was 95 dated and was standard M4 markings and profile in everyway, including F FSB |
-Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. ~ One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
-One good shoot by a citizen can clear up more open cases than a week of detective work!
-One good shoot by a citizen can clear up more open cases than a week of detective work!
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Originally Posted By gunnut003:
Originally Posted By Morg308:
I just have one thing to say: Beautiful 'Early M4' Like this? I have the corresponding barrel, it is not 727, it has a 4 marked barrel extension but a standard FSB, so it is a early 14.5" M4 upper. I was thinking of chopping it for a mk18 Mod0, but I jsut got a 16" colt barrel to take its place, so this one can now go to a new home.... EMAIL   )
I am killing my A2 carbine BDH build and using a 723 setup instead. http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6554/dsc0766je.jpg http://img191.imageshack.us/i/dsc0765r.jpg http://img717.imageshack.us/i/dsc0764kx.jpg http://img217.imageshack.us/i/dsc0763w.jpg Can't see the pics - just red X's. I can see 'em now!
ETA: I can see the first pic now - the M4 marking seems to verify the 'early M4' thing far as I'm concerned. Email sent gunnut. |
The retro crowd is the coolest, no matter what their choice of weapons.
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Here is a repost of my Early M4 upper. C MB upper with M4 feedramps and M4 above gas tube hole. Grey anodizing.
The corresponding barrel, it is not 727, it has a 4 marked barrel extension with M4 feedramps but a standard FSB, so it is a early 14.5" M4 upper per SSeric02, it may not be early, so we'll call it unique .
Oh, I also have early M4 handguards, with NON glued shields 
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-Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. ~ One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
-One good shoot by a citizen can clear up more open cases than a week of detective work!
-One good shoot by a citizen can clear up more open cases than a week of detective work!
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Originally Posted By Morg308:
Hope you don't think I was giving you a hard time bud. Nice looking upper - I've never seen one marked M4, just with a 4. Very interesting. Is the barrel a regular M4 profile?Yes, regular barrel with the expection of no date code, just the "51" in the normal date place and no F FSB, BUT IT does have the taller FSP! As mentioned earlier I know it has to at least be earlier<––––- Per SSeric02, This may be incorrect The earliest dated M4 barrel I have seen is 07/95 per this F marked M4 barrel That I had. (I dont know if there are earlier dated M4 barrels, that is just the earliest I have seen/had.) 
As a side note I have a 20" barrel that has a A2 FSB, and "29" in the date code area. By the chamber it is stamped "O" and "Triangle". The barrel came attached to a grey unmarked A4 upper receiver with a grey MMA forge code carry handle that mounts to the side of the flattop notches instead of the top like current production. I wonder it this was designed during the same time as the BHD time period (on topic?  )
And just because I have this picture, here is some FSBs with FSPs. L to R, M4 socom-F fsb-Reg post;early M4-non F fsb-tall post; 95 M4 barrel-F fsb-reg post; m16a2 carbine(bubbaguns)-reg .625 fsb-tall A2 post(as supplied by colt);723 barrel-reg .625 fsb-tall A1 post (as supplied by colt), 
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-Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. ~ One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
-One good shoot by a citizen can clear up more open cases than a week of detective work!
-One good shoot by a citizen can clear up more open cases than a week of detective work!
| Doesn't necessarily have to be earlier b/c of the lack of an F FSB. Colt still produced A2 uppered M4s for other contracts, and probably still will if that's what the customer orders. Perfect example is those 1/12 replacement carbine barrels with the mid-late 90s production codes that were on the market last year or so. It's a great find though, and perfect for a clone from that era. |
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Originally Posted By SSeric02:
Doesn't necessarily have to be earlier b/c of the lack of an F FSB. Colt still produced A2 uppered M4s for other contracts, and probably still will if that's what the customer orders. Perfect example is those 1/12 replacement carbine barrels with the mid-late 90s production codes that were on the market last year or so. It's a great find though, and perfect for a clone from that era. I have settled on the 723 Colt upper for that era...I am finally admitting I have too many ARs... 
Any insight on when date codes first appeared? I know I had the 1995 M4 barrel, and I also have one of the 1/12 replacement carbine barrels with a date of 1996. Any clues to when the two digits were used? I have this M4 barrel with the 51("O" stamped above chamber) and a 20" colt barrel with 29 ("O" and "triangle" stamped above chamber)... They both seem to be around the early 90's only because even the replacement stuff that came after the '95 M4 barrel still had date codes.... I also have a 723 barrel that has NO MARKS at ALL under the handguards, and a 1/7 carbine 14.5 pencil barrel that also has no marks under the handguards. Now regardless of the A2 FSB, to me it seems that a possible way to generally date these is: -No markings behind the FSB, based on the 723 and other 1/7 carbine barrels -Number codes behind the FSB, the M4 barrel discussed above and my other 20" barrel -Date codes behind the FSB, based on all barrels from at least 07/95 that have date codes regardless if military or civilian TO me it seems that regardless of who the the customer is or what the FSB or barrel length or profile is, Colt would not change how they mark the actual barrels regarding proofing, and dates (seems counter productive)... I know the twist and other discriptors would vary But to conclude, I DONT KNOW! 
TO show at least FOUR of the possible variations that could have shown up during BHD, look at the top 4 uppers...the top one could be CSAR or Air Force... 
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-Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. ~ One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
-One good shoot by a citizen can clear up more open cases than a week of detective work!
-One good shoot by a citizen can clear up more open cases than a week of detective work!
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Ahh, i see what you're saying now in regards to when Colt started stmaping the date codes. I have no idea though.
I know what you mean about having "too many." I've gone round and round with plans and projects. I finally settled on doing a good 723 clone with the stepped barrel on a gray preban 6520 lower I've got, and I put the 733 upper kit I've got on my Noveske SBR lower along with a CMT CAR stock, and decided to call it a day. 
ETA: Although, if I come across another A2 upper that matches the 6520 lower again, I might have to put together a 727 clone upper I can swap in and out with the 723. 
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Originally Posted By captrichardson:
In Memory and Honor of all of the Brothers who put it on the line. "Let us never forget those who have come before us and paid the ultimate price." "Let us never forget the flesh, blood, and spirit that has carried the black rifle into harms way" http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/BloodSteel.jpg Operation Gothic Serpent - Task Force Ranger 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment - Delta - "De Oppresso Liber" http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/Delta-1.jpg SSG Daniel Busch SFC Earl Fillmore MSG Gary Gordon MSG Tim Martin SFC Randy Shughart Bravo Co / 3rd Battalion / 75th Ranger Regiment - "Sua Sponte" http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/Ranger.jpg SPC James Cavaco SGT Casey Joyce PFC Richard Kowalewski SGT Dominick Pilla SGT Lorenzo Ruiz CPL Jamie Smith 160th Special Ops Aviation Regiment - "Nightstalkers Never Quit" http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/160.jpg CWO Donovan Briley SSG William Cleveland SSG Thomas Field CWO Raymond Frank CWO Clifton Wolcott 10th Mountain Division - "Climb to Glory" http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/10th.jpg SGT Cornell Houston PFC James Martin http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/Ceremony.jpg DELTA http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/dboys4gb.jpg http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/Delta50.jpg http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/Delta727-2.jpg http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/Delta727-1.jpg http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/DeltaPatrol.jpg RANGERS http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/TaskForceRanger.jpg http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/MEversmann.jpg http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/Rangers.jpg http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/CSAR2.jpg http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/CSAR-1.jpg http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/BHD2.jpg http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/BHD1.jpg USAF Spec Ops http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/DShillingAFCC.jpg The previous threads pretty much cover it, but as always if anyone can add anything else please do. Best of Luck, Capt Richardson Great post, thanks for that. Let me also mention the loss SFC Bob Deeks who was a Special Forces Medic attached to ODA562 who was killed by a land mine in the north near Beledweyne before the infamous and tragic October 3rd events. |
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Originally Posted By Morg308:
Originally Posted By DocMike:
Bumpity, bump. Any one besides me think this should be moved and possibly pinned in the 'A2 builds forum?'  Rodger that! |
-Nemo me impune lacesset.
-Beware the fury of a patient man.
-Thousands and thousands of laws....All for just ten commandments.
-"alot" is not a word.
-Beware the fury of a patient man.
-Thousands and thousands of laws....All for just ten commandments.
-"alot" is not a word.
| Would an original Surefire 660 weapon light (the original round body tail cap version) be correct for this era of build or would it be too recent? I have heard some say that they were around during the time period and others say that the 660 was introduced later. |
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Originally Posted By Jturbo:
Would an original Surefire 660 weapon light (the original round body tail cap version) be correct for this era of build or would it be too recent? I have heard some say that they were around during the time period and others say that the 660 was introduced later. I can get the 660 back to 1996 when the movie "The Rock" a 1996 action film that primarily takes place on Alcatraz Island. It came out June 7, 1996 so it was filmed in 95 or even as early as 94. 
Just about every gun has a surefire weapon light on it. You Tube video below http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_LGnvnQndA Early Laser products sure-fire catalog. Looks to be from 1996. from the URL http://home.comcast.net/~rdh10/http/Surefire/Surefire-1996-Ill.pdf Early Tactical Light and Laser Sight catalog 1997 http://home.comcast.net/~rdh10/http/Surefire/Surefire-1997-Tac.pdf |
A few of the pics I posted in the A2 forum. The upper is the M4 marked upper and early barrel posted earlier in this thread by Gunnut003. I sent him a grey delta ring and he put it together. I don't have the lower together, so I slung it on my XM16e1 lower temporarily, and like it so well I plan on staying with a fixed stock, although I will use a similiarly mottled A1 trapdoor for this build. The Israeli style sling is a GP sling modified by M1sniper. I really like the way it transitions. For everyday carry/use, I don't think it can be beat, but of course, that's with the fixed stock. Yes, the loop slips right off the stock, and allows for around the neck/over the shoulder carry, but the weapon still comes up easily and can be tightened up ala hasty sling. It can also be slung around upside down off the back - No adjustment nesc. I love this stupid thing. Can't wait to finish it and actually send some rounds downrange.
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Old? I'll give you old...
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Originally Posted By Morg308:
A few of the pics I posted in the A2 forum. The upper is the M4 marked upper and early barrel posted earlier in this thread by Gunnut003. I sent him a grey delta ring and he put it together. I don't have the lower together, so I slung it on my XM16e1 lower temporarily, and like it so well I plan on staying with a fixed stock, although I will use a similiarly mottled A1 trapdoor for this build. The Israeli style sling is a GP sling modified by M1sniper. I really like the way it transitions. For everyday carry/use, I don't think it can be beat, but of course, that's with the fixed stock. Yes, the loop slips right off the stock, and allows for around the neck/over the shoulder carry, but the weapon still comes up easily and can be tightened up ala hasty sling. It can also be slung around upside down off the back - No adjustment nesc. I love this stupid thing. Can't wait to finish it and actually send some rounds downrange. http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/Morg308/P1010034-2.jpg http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/Morg308/P1010030-2.jpg http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/Morg308/P1010032-2.jpg ...<––––-sarcasm gone bad.....––>you guys <––––me
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-Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. ~ One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
-One good shoot by a citizen can clear up more open cases than a week of detective work!
-One good shoot by a citizen can clear up more open cases than a week of detective work!
I know it's not the right lower gunnut - do you not like it? I have an aluminum CAR stock for it, and an early M4 stock - just haven't had time to finish the lower.  I've been chipping at rocks to get the hole deep enough for a power pole. When I said stupid thing, I wasn't belittling it - I just can't believe I dig it so much! I cannot wait to shoot it.
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Old? I'll give you old...
going for a 1993 Somalia car15 build and need your help (Page 6 of 90)
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