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Link Posted: 10/26/2009 2:54:43 AM EDT
[#1]
More than likely setback.

Quoted:
Anyone else noticed that a lot of reload kabooms in Glocks seem to occur on Remington brass?  I know not all of them are, but I would say at least 75% of the incidents I have read about seem to use Remington.


R-P Nickel in 45acp usually runs about .09" thick, I've had a few of them that would fail the thumb test after loading them with 230gr FMJs.

I don't know if R-P 40cal brass has the same problem or not.
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 4:01:41 AM EDT
[#2]
First, I am glad you are OK.  I totally understand how your confidence is now shattered, your story has shaken my confidence in shooting my reloads on my Glock.  As far as what happened, we can only guess so I am not going to speculate.  I don't reload .40 but I reload 115gr 9mm Berry's plated bullets for my Glock.  I reload 9mm so I can have cheaper practice ammo, it is paper punching ammo or used to shoot steel plates.  Like you the first time I reloaded for my pistol I worked up a load.  I use Titegroup powder and I found no accuracy or reliability difference using from 4.0 to 4.5 grains of Titegroup.  So I settled for 4.0 gr to keep the load as cheap as possible.  I think that using light bullets and a light load, and making sure that I do not double load Titeggroup has kept my Glock in one piece.  So if you decide to reload for your Glock again, my recommedation is that you stay on the low end of the load and also load lighter bullets.
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 4:49:19 AM EDT
[#3]
Link

This usually solves the Glock reload issue
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 5:01:05 AM EDT
[#4]
I blew up my Glock .40 with reloads - Help me figure out what I did wrong -


I am glad you are okay!

1) Buy a real gun.  I am not kidding. Don't you find it strange that the advice you get is to buy a 3rd party barrel because the OEM Glock barrel is dangerous?

2) Make sure your 'glock' supports the cartridge case.

It's sad to read potentially fatal stories about Glocks exploding because they are so ammo sensitive while other guns don't have the same issues.
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 5:14:33 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Link

This usually solves the Glock reload issue


Does this really fix it or just hide it?  The bulged part of the brass has still been worked a lot.  What happens if it lines up with the unsupported part of the chamber again?  Naively, it seems like the brass is still damaged.
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 6:16:34 AM EDT
[#6]
Did you get chrono data from the kB?  That could help confirm/eliminate an over-powered round as opposed to just unsupported.  

55_grain
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 6:38:41 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Sorry about your loss, but  I won't even buy once fired .40 cases since they
may have been fired in a glock.  That little pregnant bulge in the case head
you see on fired brass is a bit too freaky for me.



+1  I reload almost everything, but .40s go in the trash after once-firing.....
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 6:42:19 AM EDT
[#8]





Quoted:





Quoted:


Link





This usually solves the Glock reload issue








Does this really fix it or just hide it?  The bulged part of the brass has still been worked a lot.  What happens if it lines up with the unsupported part of the chamber again?  Naively, it seems like the brass is still damaged.



Agreed. You'll word harden an already harder part of the brass, and I feel that if it lines up again, you'll get your KB.


 



Though I admit, I've "fixed" glocked brass to use in my XD without issue for 10 years now.
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 7:07:39 AM EDT
[#9]
Problem 1: Brittle brass from being shot from a Glock and then resized (see KiethJ and AeroE's posts above).
Problem 2: Unsupported chamber area in a Glock.

Brother, I'm glad you're okay.  My non-SWAG is that your Kb resulted from once fired (through a stock Glock .40 barrel) and resized brass being rechambered and fired in almost the exact same spot as it was fired the first time.  Brittle brass + unsupported chamber = Kb.

You got lucky with the first set of rounds shot.

Lesson to take away from this? Once-fired brass from a Glock .40 is not suitable for reloading.  That, and RTFM re: reloads in a Glock.
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 8:21:22 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Link

This usually solves the Glock reload issue


Does this really fix it or just hide it?  The bulged part of the brass has still been worked a lot.  What happens if it lines up with the unsupported part of the chamber again?  Naively, it seems like the brass is still damaged.


First of all I'd just buy the $39 Redding G-Rx die made to push the .40 back to shape and save my FCD for what it was designed for.  That said, the man gave us an awesome idea to fix the problem in other calibers besides .40 S&W because the Redding die is only available in .40.  The Redding die differs also in that a case pushed through, is sized in "fired" diameter.  You then resize using your normal resizer.  This type of fix is only for minor bulges only seen by placing a ruler against the brass or you put the case in a case gauge and it won't go all the way in.  If you've picked up some range brass with huge bulges from somebody's hot load. Toss it.  The Redding tool will not re-thicken case walls blown out.

Second, and OP this is important, some Glocks have been shown to fire sometimes up to 1/8" out of battery.  Read that again.  What that means is, that the bulge if not taken out some way, keeps the round from totally closing.  If the gun fires anyway, being out of battery, that would increase the case's unsupported problem at 6 O'clock.  What this means is...even a minor bulge (visually hard to see) could keep the round from going into battery, with terrible consequences if the striker releases.

Out of battery firing could also account for the blown-out primer. The following page at "The Gun Zone" talks about OOBF and pay special attention to the sidebar on the right, that describes an experience in a law enforcement training organization.  http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/dimples.html

The Gun Zone has a couple of bad experiences, told first person, by Glock 22 owners like you.  The whole site is a treasure trove of info about the dark side of Glocks and how owners either quit reloading them, replaced their barrels, or replaced their guns.  There is also tales of Glock quietly replacing guns, or, with owner-admitted fault, charging them less than, or no more than $250 to fix or replace them.  Publicly admitting fault hasn't EVER happened.

Link Posted: 10/26/2009 9:54:50 AM EDT
[#11]
I just started reloading for Glock's last week. I've been reloading for other firearms for twenty-five years. I'm using Redding G-Rx die to remove the bulge. Not that I think it will matter, but because the die is available and helps with chambering. I am the proud owner of 10,000 free once fired cases from a local law enforcement angency that REQUIRED that I buy the Glock so I could dispose of them properly.

This is what I see in one photo. I know my eyes are not "calibrated" and are in no way that accurate. The top round (loaded) in the magazine appears to still have the case mouth ever so slightly flaired. A caliper or micrometer could confirm this. If this is the case, it means no crimp or very minimal crimp was applied to the case mouth. Not enough to secure the bullet from set back. This could be the source of the problem.

The velocities posted are well with safe pressures, the only other way to boost them is a double charge or bullet set back.

If the finished rounds were not run through a gauge or my ever handy gauge (the pistols barrel - removed from the gun for just this purpose) there is know way to know if a "bulge" interferred with a round being chambered. By simply resizing a Glock .40 S&W case I have seen the bulge moved downward towrad the case head. If one of these cases were reloaded and fired it would probably be out -of-battery and could cause a KaBoom.  This is why I bought Redding's G-Rx die.

I would not give up on reloading. Get gauges, use calipers or micrometers so you know exactly what is or isn't being done.

I was at the range yesterday chronographing two loads in my spnking new Glock 23.

200 grain Hornady FMJ - 1.125" OAL
5.5 grains of Power Pistol
CCI-500 std .small pistol primers
860 fps std. of dev. 9

135 grain Sierra HP - 1.125" OAL
8.2 grains of Power Pistol
CCI-500 std. small pistol primers
1194 fps std. of dev. 17

Good accuracy with both.

Link Posted: 10/26/2009 11:45:16 AM EDT
[#12]
Wow, that sucks!  



I found this site which makes a pretty strong case against using 180 gr bullets in 40 SW



http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 12:04:19 PM EDT
[#13]



Quoted:


Wow, that sucks!  



I found this site which makes a pretty strong case against using 180 gr bullets in 40 SW



http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm






 


Quoted:

I have gone so far as to pound 40 cal bullets into the case as deep as possible - the case was bulging and the slide had to be pounded into battery - no kB. These were factory 180gr Gold Dots, hot ammo. I began to take bullet setback in the 40 as being less of an issue than is generally reported.



I also did this with Remington ammo which probably wasn't a good idea, because Remington ammo is pretty low quality.


Link Posted: 10/26/2009 12:17:09 PM EDT
[#14]
What you did wrong was use reloads in a Glock 40
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 12:50:43 PM EDT
[#15]



Quoted:


What you did wrong was use reloads in a Glock 40


Without changing out the barrel.



 
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 1:20:34 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Wow, that sucks!  

I found this site which makes a pretty strong case against using 180 gr bullets in 40 SW

http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm


That information is interesting, and it makes a lot of sense.  Big bullet, short small case, means very little margin for error.  I will have to try the 165 gr. bullets!

To the O.P. I think if your Lee FC die had shown up and had been used, you might have just diverted this bad experience to a future day.  I say might.  I'm not sure whether using just that die would have taken a bulge near the base out.  I know it smooths up the rest of the case and crimps well and as long as the OAL was to spec, AND if the bulge left in the base did not cause an out of battery ignition It probably would've worked ok.  Your pictures sure indicate an out of battery ignition to me.

Lots of ifs that I'm not too sure you want to experiment with any more, knowing what your state of mind has to be right now.  Not sure I would want to in your place, least not without a bench-mounted gun and a remote control trigger pull!  I wouldn't blame you a bit if you went to another brand of gun...and another more lenient caliber.
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 2:31:45 PM EDT
[#17]
I have 2 Glocks in .40 and have loaded and shot 10's of thousands of rounds for them with no KB's. I have loaded jacketed, moly coated and plain lead. I've used factory and aftermarket barrels. That being said, keep your handloads low to mid range. If you want to shoot full power rounds, use new brass or buy factory ammo. This is my policy with all autopistol ammo. There's no way I can be sure that the brass I pick up off the ground came from my pistol and I know the history of.

I see no reason to stress the pistol or risk a blown up gun when rounds loaded to lower velocity will do everything you need them to do.

(And Glocks are not the only guns that KB)

Link Posted: 10/26/2009 2:49:04 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:

My simple question, and I hesitate to ask it for fear of derailing the thread, is why is it always a .40 and a glock combo?  Thats a serious question I would like answered some day.  


Several reasons.  It's the cartridge design as well as the Weapon design, though they are related:

1) In designing the .40 S&W had to make a lot of compromises.  They wanted to duplicate the 180 grain FBI "lite" load.  They also wanted the final cartridge to fit in a 9mm size frame.
Well they just barely made it.  Most .40 ammo has a flat nose or truncated cone profile because a 180 grain round nose wouldn't fit in the design envelope.  So you end up with a short case without a lot of space in it.  Pressure in straight waled cases can be very dependent on seating depth, or rather the volume left in the case after the bullet is seated.  Note that even in a standard load, a .40 S&W is a fairly high pressure cartridge.

2) The .40 fits in a 9mm frame, but just barely.  In order to enhance reliability Glock decided to use a barrel with a bit less support than other folks might have decided to use.  THis enhances feeding. However, when a case fails it blows out like in the pictures above.

BTW it's not Just "always a .40 and Glock Combo".  The majority of these are Glock +.40 +180 grain ammo.  Both reloads and factory.  It's a result of all the little compromises adding up the wrong way.

Also part of the reason you see so many is simply selection bias.  The Boeing 737 has crashed more than any other commercial jet aircraft, but it's safety rate is very good.  They crash more often simply because Boeing has built so many of them.  Same thing.  Glock has built so many guns that you should expect to see quite a few K'boom compared to other manufacturers.

I have a couple .40's (not Glocks, but that's because I hate the grip angle) but I don't reload 180 grain bullets for any of them.  I stick to 165s.  Now maybe I am being overly cautious, but there is certainly an extra margin of safety if you use 155s or 165s.

As for what the original poster did wrong:  His load of 6.5 grains appears to be reasonable, if on the warm side.  Using the theory that plated should use lead data, Lyman shows 6.3 - 7.0 for a 175 Lead TC in two different moulds. So his load appears OK.  Plus he had worked up to this earlier.  Also, Ramshot shows 6.3-7.0 for a Hornady Jacketed 180, so under the "use lighter jacketed data" theory he's also ok.

He was using a Lee press, and say what you will about Lee's equipment, but their powder dispensers are very consistent, so I'm willing to rule out the measure dropping high or low as long as it was set right.

Now I don't know how True Blue behaves and if it gets spiky wrt case volume.  I've never used it, and in fact I've never even SEEN any of Ramshot's pistol powders locally.  I'd be happy to try them.  But noone seems to carry them in the Phoenix area.

My guess, and I stress guess, is that the OP had a bit of bullet setback, and this was just enough to kick a marginal case over the edge.  The case then failed at the unsupported region.






Thanks for giving me a serious reply on this question.  I actually had the same conversation the day before this thread started on how many people shoot a glock .40 and that has to have something to do with how many KB's I hear about.  I still doubt I would ever get a glock.  I have no need for a gun that is that finicky and on ammo and has a possible higher chance of a KB.  That and they are ugly
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 3:24:47 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Did you get chrono data from the kB?  That could help confirm/eliminate an over-powered round as opposed to just unsupported.  

55_grain


Afterwards I was pretty pissed that I didn't look at the chrono and mine doesn't save it.  I was pretty shaken up and embarrassed and just wanted to get out of there before one of the rangemasters saw me.  I packed up and bolted.  I have some evidence on the brass that I missed the first time that I'm about to post that may indicate an OOB firing.
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 4:04:00 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
I have 2 Glocks in .40 and have loaded and shot 10's of thousands of rounds for them with no KB's. I have loaded jacketed, moly coated and plain lead. I've used factory and aftermarket barrels. That being said, keep your handloads low to mid range. If you want to shoot full power rounds, use new brass or buy factory ammo. This is my policy with all autopistol ammo. There's no way I can be sure that the brass I pick up off the ground came from my pistol and I know the history of.

I see no reason to stress the pistol or risk a blown up gun when rounds loaded to lower velocity will do everything you need them to do.

(And Glocks are not the only guns that KB)



Unfortunantly everyone THINKS they are, because that is all anyone hears.....the problem is the ratio of .40 Glocks owned to any other .40 handgun is probably 10:1 or MORE!!  Almost all LE agencies issue 40 cal Glocks...so the problem is the numbers, I'd bet the percentage of Glocks KB'ed Vs. the number of Glocks in circulation is probably no more or no less than any other gun, its just you hear about it more, because there are more of them.  

As for reloading the .40...every book I've read has a warning about using reloaded .40 in unsupported chambers, its not the gun, its the ammo.  If yer gonna reload for a Glock .40 get an aftermarket barrel that fully supports, or else shoot factory ammo, or even lighter loads.
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 5:49:39 PM EDT
[#21]
I don't think it is the problem but you stated you followed the jacketed load data. You seem to be .3 grains low to me. You either should load for lead or load for jacketed, not in between.
And I have always stuck to 155's in my 27.
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 7:19:44 PM EDT
[#22]
i'm sorry to see you blew up your gun but glad you didn't get hurt. i'd keep that gun the way it is if you can afford it and just put it in the reloading room as a constant reminder. at least it's a nice conversation piece to show to your buddies over a few beers!

as for getting back into reloading i can't blame you if you ever decide to stop. like another poster said, we are after all playing with mini bombs here. if it helps at all, if and when you decide to get back to reloading, loading for the ar is safer imho. there's no way it'll fire out of battery, bullet setback has less effect on pressure (bottle neck vs. straight wall pistol case) and most of the kabooms i've seen only bulged the receiver and blew off the magazine. that's little consolation obviously in your case but there's a lot of us reloaders who haven't encountered your unfortunate situation.

by the way, from reading all the data available i'd say it was a bullet setback. good luck and i hope you recover soon enough!
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 7:27:50 PM EDT
[#23]
There are so many things that could have caused this... a slightly overcharged case (if you did measure each charge, and dumped the charges back into the right case, this is not likely––I have caught myself almost doing something like that before, dumping a charge back into the wrong case –– I modified my reloading practices to prevent it), a weak piece of brass (once-fired "glocked" brass is weakened by that bulge, ironing it out just weakens it more or hides the problem), or firing out of battery (possibly caused by the bulge being at a position other than 6 o'clock in the chamber, keeping the case from fully entering the chamber), which is possible on the Glock design (I've seen some drop the striker with a surprising distance being left for full lockup) and some others.  It's one of the checks I do before buying a semi-auto pistol (1911 or otherwise).

I say don't give up reloading.  I would get Glock to repair the pistol (they'll probably sell you a new frame, that barrel and slide is probably fine).  If I were to reload for the .40 Glock, I would stick to low power to medium power loads, and I would look hard at getting one of those aftermarket barrels that properly supports the .40 case... that is a higher pressure pistol round, and given that Glocks have KBd even with factory ammo (in much the same manner your pics depict), I would take that precaution.  The aftermarket barrels will also enable you to shoot lead bullets, so you can save even more reloading.   I'm not a Glock fan, but I am looking at it from your perspective.  That said, anyone that I have talk to about .40 pistols (folks seek out my advise sometimes, I'm the resident gun-nut) I normally steer them towards other platforms, especially if they are talking about reloading.  Another alternative would be to have the pistol repaired and trade it in on another platform that has a fully-supported chamber.  My favorite pistol in the .40 caliber is the Browning High Power (I believe JMB himself would approve), followed by the XD.  I'm not a big Beretta fan (the pistol is just a bit of a handful for me), but those work well in .40 as well.

We've all made some little goof here or there, and yours (whether it's your fault or not, I tend to call this one just a lesson learned or just bad luck, you certainly did your homework) is a little bigger than some, but, hey, you didn't get damaged, and now have a reloading / gun "war story" to tell.
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 8:02:53 PM EDT
[#24]
At least one of my reloading manuals has a specific note of NOT reloading cases fired in a factory glock .40 barrel due to the unsupported chamber and case bulging issue. Some of the .40 cases I've picked up have had a very noticeable bulge(and I know it was factory ammo because I watched them open the box and load mags).

Even if you do fully resize the case with a push through die, that area has already been weakened and there isn't anything you can do to fix that. If that case is then used for a top end load, and aligns just right(wrong?) in the chamber, you run a greater risk of it blowing out. My understanding is that the polygonal rifling used in glock barrels forms a better seal and thus increases pressure above what standard rifling would generate...so even with a load that would be perfectly safe in a standard barrel the load might not be safe in a glock or other gun that uses polygonal rifling.

I don't have glocks and don't load for them, but I think at the very least an aftermarket barrel with more chamber support is probably a good idea on the .40 cal models. Then again, I don't think anyone should have to buy an aftermarket barrel to eliminate a problem that should never have existed.
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 8:17:43 PM EDT
[#25]
Wow. A lot of interesting responses. I was really expecting this thread to get out of hand.
That being said, I need to do some more research before buying my pistol. I was going to go with a Glock 40 but now I think I'm leaning towards the XD unless I can get the Glock $200 cheaper than the XD to account for a replacement barrel as I will be doing my own reloading.

OP, glad you're ok. But I think the first thing I'm going to do tomorrow after school is sit down and re-read my reloading manuals just to be on the safe side.
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 8:26:31 PM EDT
[#26]
I stopped shooting & collecting Glocks after Jizzuno went on 60 minutes.... BUT..

Back when I carried a 23, I reloaded with my brass carefully sorting out all cracks and bulges. I never had an issue.

I remember noticing all the KB pics looked alike, but the ones who had a Hogue glove on the grip all had minimal effect to the shooter, where usually the hands were cut from minimal to semi serious. I always kept a Hogue glove on mine.

FWIW I will never consider not reloading, but then again now I only do 1911, and kb is not an issue imo.
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 9:05:13 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have 2 Glocks in .40 and have loaded and shot 10's of thousands of rounds for them with no KB's. I have loaded jacketed, moly coated and plain lead. I've used factory and aftermarket barrels. That being said, keep your handloads low to mid range. If you want to shoot full power rounds, use new brass or buy factory ammo. This is my policy with all autopistol ammo. There's no way I can be sure that the brass I pick up off the ground came from my pistol and I know the history of.

I see no reason to stress the pistol or risk a blown up gun when rounds loaded to lower velocity will do everything you need them to do.

(And Glocks are not the only guns that KB)



Unfortunantly everyone THINKS they are, because that is all anyone hears.....the problem is the ratio of .40 Glocks owned to any other .40 handgun is probably 10:1 or MORE!!  Almost all LE agencies issue 40 cal Glocks...so the problem is the numbers, I'd bet the percentage of Glocks KB'ed Vs. the number of Glocks in circulation is probably no more or no less than any other gun, its just you hear about it more, because there are more of them.  

As for reloading the .40...every book I've read has a warning about using reloaded .40 in unsupported chambers, its not the gun, its the ammo.  If yer gonna reload for a Glock .40 get an aftermarket barrel that fully supports, or else shoot factory ammo, or even lighter loads.


If it wasn't the gun...you wouldn't have to get a new barrel, would you. And if you have a supported barrel you don't have the problem of bulged and weakened brass that's more dangerous to reload with.  But, I'll compromise... its the gun and the .40S&W combination.  But keep in mind that the every one of the recorded kabooms in other brands of semiautos, that I can find, are always double charges, wrong powder, or hitting squibs.  They are not from valid loads fired in "glocked" brass.

My intention isn't to flame anybody...I happen to like Glocks just fine.  But when I buy my own Glock, I WILL get a supported barrel and it will be in .45.  (.45 Glocks with the original barrel go kaboom more often than other brands too...and the LE agenies don't use many .45's, so the ratio argument doesn't hold.)

Link Posted: 10/27/2009 4:24:20 AM EDT
[#28]
Jeez...
Nothing to add but I'm just glad youre OK.
Link Posted: 10/27/2009 4:38:34 AM EDT
[#29]
Link Posted: 10/27/2009 6:18:22 AM EDT
[#30]
Glad you are OK . Looks like the round before your blow up was a squib load & did not make it all the way out of the bbl. , the next full load did it in. Squib loads do not always bulge the bbl.. I would mic the bbl. any way, just out of curiosity.
Link Posted: 10/27/2009 11:38:24 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
dont alot of people buy the wolf barrels as they have more chamber support


A friend of mine who is an experienced shooter and reloader runs a Lone Wolf barrel in his Glock 23.  The case support between the stock barrel and LW barrel is evident to the eye.  Inspecting fired brass reveals a bulge near the case head in the brass from the stock barrel.

In my Glock 26 (9mm), the case is supported very well with the stock barrel and I've had no issues with normal reloads and the stock barrel.

Glad you're OK, OP.
Link Posted: 10/27/2009 1:48:14 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have 2 Glocks in .40 and have loaded and shot 10's of thousands of rounds for them with no KB's. I have loaded jacketed, moly coated and plain lead. I've used factory and aftermarket barrels. That being said, keep your handloads low to mid range. If you want to shoot full power rounds, use new brass or buy factory ammo. This is my policy with all autopistol ammo. There's no way I can be sure that the brass I pick up off the ground came from my pistol and I know the history of.

I see no reason to stress the pistol or risk a blown up gun when rounds loaded to lower velocity will do everything you need them to do.

(And Glocks are not the only guns that KB)



Unfortunantly everyone THINKS they are, because that is all anyone hears.....the problem is the ratio of .40 Glocks owned to any other .40 handgun is probably 10:1 or MORE!!  Almost all LE agencies issue 40 cal Glocks...so the problem is the numbers, I'd bet the percentage of Glocks KB'ed Vs. the number of Glocks in circulation is probably no more or no less than any other gun, its just you hear about it more, because there are more of them.  

As for reloading the .40...every book I've read has a warning about using reloaded .40 in unsupported chambers, its not the gun, its the ammo.  If yer gonna reload for a Glock .40 get an aftermarket barrel that fully supports, or else shoot factory ammo, or even lighter loads.


If it wasn't the gun...you wouldn't have to get a new barrel, would you. And if you have a supported barrel you don't have the problem of bulged and weakened brass that's more dangerous to reload with.  But, I'll compromise... its the gun and the .40S&W combination.  But keep in mind that the every one of the recorded kabooms in other brands of semiautos, that I can find, are always double charges, wrong powder, or hitting squibs.  They are not from valid loads fired in "glocked" brass.

My intention isn't to flame anybody...I happen to like Glocks just fine.  But when I buy my own Glock, I WILL get a supported barrel and it will be in .45.  (.45 Glocks with the original barrel go kaboom more often than other brands too...and the LE agenies don't use many .45's, so the ratio argument doesn't hold.)



They are not designed to shoot reloads, and state it very clearly in their manuals....They are not supported to achieve maximum reliabilty, unfortunantly this comprimises durability when you decide to reload.
Link Posted: 10/27/2009 1:48:47 PM EDT
[#33]
Not any help, but my father had a G22 (his service arm at the time) blow up almost identically with factory ammo when his department was at the range one day. Scary stuff.
Link Posted: 10/27/2009 1:58:01 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have 2 Glocks in .40 and have loaded and shot 10's of thousands of rounds for them with no KB's. I have loaded jacketed, moly coated and plain lead. I've used factory and aftermarket barrels. That being said, keep your handloads low to mid range. If you want to shoot full power rounds, use new brass or buy factory ammo. This is my policy with all autopistol ammo. There's no way I can be sure that the brass I pick up off the ground came from my pistol and I know the history of.

I see no reason to stress the pistol or risk a blown up gun when rounds loaded to lower velocity will do everything you need them to do.

(And Glocks are not the only guns that KB)



Unfortunantly everyone THINKS they are, because that is all anyone hears.....the problem is the ratio of .40 Glocks owned to any other .40 handgun is probably 10:1 or MORE!!  Almost all LE agencies issue 40 cal Glocks...so the problem is the numbers, I'd bet the percentage of Glocks KB'ed Vs. the number of Glocks in circulation is probably no more or no less than any other gun, its just you hear about it more, because there are more of them.  

As for reloading the .40...every book I've read has a warning about using reloaded .40 in unsupported chambers, its not the gun, its the ammo.  If yer gonna reload for a Glock .40 get an aftermarket barrel that fully supports, or else shoot factory ammo, or even lighter loads.


If it wasn't the gun...you wouldn't have to get a new barrel, would you. And if you have a supported barrel you don't have the problem of bulged and weakened brass that's more dangerous to reload with.  But, I'll compromise... its the gun and the .40S&W combination.  But keep in mind that the every one of the recorded kabooms in other brands of semiautos, that I can find, are always double charges, wrong powder, or hitting squibs.  They are not from valid loads fired in "glocked" brass.

My intention isn't to flame anybody...I happen to like Glocks just fine.  But when I buy my own Glock, I WILL get a supported barrel and it will be in .45.  (.45 Glocks with the original barrel go kaboom more often than other brands too...and the LE agenies don't use many .45's, so the ratio argument doesn't hold.)



They are not designed to shoot reloads, and state it very clearly in their manuals....They are not supported to achieve maximum reliabilty, unfortunantly this comprimises durability when you decide to reload.


Nearly all, if not all manufacturers caution against the use of "reloaded" ammo. Find me one gun maker who says the use of reloaded ammo is recommended.

As far as Glocks unsupported chamber, I'd like to see a photo of any .40 service type pistol that has a fully supported chamber.

The bottom line is that properly assembled handloads in a serviceable pistol will function and not damage the weapon.

Link Posted: 10/27/2009 2:46:44 PM EDT
[#35]
Link Posted: 10/27/2009 3:38:15 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Every person that has an aftermarket barrel in their Glock pistol and has reliability problems please chime in.

If you removed an aftermarket barrel due to poor reliability and reinstalled the factory barrel, tell us that, too.


The issue with the unsupported chamber in Glock pistols is not the fact, it's the degree.  Anyone can simply look at the barrel with a cartridge in the chamber and clearly see without taking a measurement that the unsupported length of the case is extreme.



I have aftermarket (Lone Wolf) barrels in 2 Glocks, a G34 and a G35. I use them both quite a bit for competitive shooting and they both have in excess of 50,000 rounds through them. The stock barrels shot fine and the only reason I changed to these is because I wanted to shoot lead and polymer coated bullets. I don't think Glock factory barrsls are safe with unjacketed bullets.

The Lone wolf barrels are chambered tighter and I initially had problems with some ammo not chambering. Once I figured out the leade was short and they liked the Lee FCD, things have been fine.  

Link Posted: 10/27/2009 4:00:56 PM EDT
[#37]
Glad you are ok.
Link Posted: 10/27/2009 5:21:01 PM EDT
[#38]
First off, as everybody else said ... glad you're alright.  

This is exactly why I don't own more Glocks.  I reload for everything I own, and can't have a gun that requires special considerations for reloading.  

When I buy once fired .40 brass I toss anything with even a slight bulge.  it's simply not worth the 2 cents the case cost.  And I wouldn't trust that Redding push through die either.  Once the brass is stretched it's going to weaker, even if it looks fine after resizing.  If you happen to get unlucky and that weakened part lines up just right (or wrong) again, you're asking for trouble.  

I once took some medium-hot .40 loads of mine to the range, fired many through my CZ P-06, Sig X-5 in .40, and then my Dad's G22.  After one mag through the G22 the difference was obvious.  The CZ/Sig fired brass showed no stretching signs at all, the G22 fired had an obvious bulge on every case.  After that I told Dad to fire his own ammo.  

More than anything this case and thread highlights the most important part of reloading - information!  I hate it when I'm at the gunshop and somebody comes in asking for reloading advice.  The guy behind the counter will look in the manual and say "buy xxx powder".  For example, recently somebody came in asking for powder to use for 55gr 5.56 loads.  After looking the manual, the guy behind the counter grabbed a bottle of RL15.  I had to step in and say something, even though the counter guy got pissed at me, RL15 simply wasn't the right powder for that application even though the manual says it'll work.  

So back to the original topic, the information to be learned from this is to not reload for Glocks in 40.  Sure it CAN be done safely, but if one bad case slips past your inspection and then lines up the same way in the barrel next time it's fired, well you know what can happen.  

Above all in reloading, when in doubt err on the safe side.
Link Posted: 10/27/2009 6:29:44 PM EDT
[#39]
Take the remaining loads you have, disassemble them, and check the powder charge.  Try to rule out any possibility of an overcharge.

Weigh the bullets you removed to make certain they are 180's

Check the primers to see if they match the standard pistol primers you are using.  I know this is not easy, but sometimes there are visual differences between the two.

Check the OAL of the remaining rounds to see if the bullets have been pushed in.

If it was the unsupported chamber issue, I don’t know why the primer would be blown out.  I had a similar problem with a friend’s glock.  It was his duty weapon and I was shooting reloads out of it.  One of the cases had a rupture, but nothing compared to what you experienced.  Based on the case failure, it seems like an unsupported case problem.

I also use 180 grn Berry’s bullets.  They seem to produce the best accuracy for me in my sig and XDM.  My friend would reload with me and ran hundreds of reloads with the 180 Berry’s through his Glock w/o any problem.
Link Posted: 10/27/2009 7:28:34 PM EDT
[#40]
Hello,

First I want to thank everybody for the responses.  You guys have made this thread into a list of all the things people need to be watching for when reloading glocks.  I appreciate everyones civility as well, since I wasn't sure if I was going to take a beating.

Sorry it took so long to update, but it's been a busy cycle at work.  On monday morning I called glock and the conversation went something like this;  (I am not quoting this guy, just trying to get as close as I can remember)

G:  Glock Service
AK:  Hi, this is AKFF and I blew up my glock using reloads.
G:   How's your fingers?
AK:  Alright now, hurt like a bitch at first.
G:   Well, I'll tell you what can happen using reloads.  If there is a stretched out spot on the casing near the web, you may not be able to see it from the outside of the casing.  This is a weakened section of the casing and can fail at the top of the feed ramp if the conditions are right. (this may not be a direct quote, close though).
AK:  Yeah, I'm not sure what went wrong, I have some hunches but I may never know.
G:   Well, how bad's the damage?
AK:  Well, it blew out the frame on both sides, blew the extractor, mag catch, and magazine, also the little parts.
G:   How about the barrel and slide?
AK:  They look alright to me.
G:   What model is it?
AK:  Glock 22
G:   I won't be sure till we see it, but based on what it sounds like I can give you an estimate.  OK, well let me look.  I can replace the frame on that one for 43 bucks, and don't worry about the cost of the small parts.
AK:  Wow, that's pretty cheap, it's going to cost me more than that to ship it there.

The rest was just logistics of payment and sending it in.  The guy was friendly and helpful.

Some follow up info.
-After I loaded this batch, I did drop the rounds into the barrel to check if they fit.  They all went in and had some slop / play.  I did not put them into an actual gauge.  
-I had not run that brass through a die like the one that pushes it through and gets rid of the bulge.  I did have my FL resizing die touching the shell plate.
-I had looked for visible bulges in the brass prior to reloading it, both before and after FL resizing.  I did not see any.

In response to the questions about set-back - While I cannot discount it, I do not think it was the issue and here is why.  I took all the remaining rounds and did the following test.  (I don’t have a bathroom scale so I can’t do the push test to check)  I measured the COAL, put it into my G23 magazine and racked the slide.  I did it three times per bullet.  I then measured COAL again.  The max reduction in COAL was from 1.130” down to 1.129” after three chamberings.  This is still in the acceptable range.  Even if there was some setback on the single time the KB round was chambered, I don’t think it was enough to cause a KB.  But, I am brand new to this stuff, so I could definitely be wrong.
I took another look at the remaining rounds from that batch, the brass that was fired prior to the KB and the KB brass itself.  All the rounds I pulled had the right amount of powder in them.  All of them fit into my G23s chamber, and I still didn’t see any bulges.

I did see something on the KB brass that I had missed before.  The picture below will show it but I will also try and explain what I see.  I am unsure if my assumptions about this are right, so feel free to toss your hat in the ring.  On the first picture posted, you will see a sized/unloaded casing, number two is the KB casing, the third is a twice fired casing from my G22.  On the KB round, do you see the lip from case expansion outside of the chamber.  Not on the side that blew out, but on the exact opposite side of the casing, just in front of the web section, there is a raised ring that I think indicates an OOB firing.

I dropped a fresh round into the G23 barrel and took a picture.  I also tapped the KB round into the G23 barrel to where the raised lip lined up right.  Notice how when fully into the chamber the good casing is below flush with the end of the metal.  But with the KB casing it is noticeably above flush with the metal.  I think this supports the OOB firing.
I played with my G23 for a while tonight and was absolutely blown away (pun intended) by how far back I could pull the slide and still have the trigger pull cause the striker to fire.  I also tried it from the other direction, as in I tried to pull the trigger while slowly releasing the slide from pulling it all the way back.  

I think that this was glock weakened brass with an OOB firing.  But I am a novice reloader.  What do you guys think?

I am going to keep reloading, for my AR15, s&w .44 mag, and my 7mm Mag.  I am seriously thinking about being done with glock and going to all 1911 styles for both carry and large capacity.  .45 is lower pressure eh……  

Thanks again,
AKFF

L to R -     Resized g22 casing - KB casing - twice fired not sized g22 casing.


Unfired cartridge all the way in chamber of G23.

Casing from KB, it is at the depth it was when removed from the KB barrel.


Unfired cartridge all the way in chamber of G23.

Casing from KB, it is at the depth it was when removed from the KB barrel.


My load workup sheet.  See how the velocities just abruptly stop?  


Showing how the grip cracked all the way down.


Link Posted: 10/27/2009 9:09:45 PM EDT
[#41]
AKFF
Thanks for the post. I shoot a 23 and your post has made me see what COULD happen to me or even worse my young nephew who shoots with me. I will not fire this weapon again until my wolf barrel arrives. The Glocks are weapons that someone will buy for their first gun purchase because of their popularity. My 23 is abrasive to shoot even when reloaded with minimum powder charges.Even though they are nice weapons I enjoy my SA 1911 more.

Don't give up reloading.....Just be sure to keep your mind on what you are doing.
Link Posted: 10/27/2009 9:40:14 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:

My load workup sheet.  See how the velocities just abruptly stop?  
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac283/scottp711/DSC040912.jpg


I was going to clarify the load workup sheet I posted.

You might wonder why the charge grains and COAL are each over a range instead of groups of the same charge, etc.  I had already done a day at the range with the first 100 rounds I had done with the same brass/powder/bullet/primer combination.  I had done the step by step workup to what was around 850 fps which was the right pressure and speed for these bullets as far as I could tell.  

So after I felt I had the right powder charge and depth, I wanted to just run the progressive press without making any die adjustments for the full 50 rounds and seeing what it gave me.  So I did so and charted the charge and COAL for each one to see what it would range over.  Heres the big one;  I followed the same bullet from start to finish before working on the next one.  So I'm pretty sure I didn't double charge.  The case never went back under the auto powder measure, it went from my scale to the seating die.  

Anyway, just wanted to post why my sheet is fluctuating.  Sorry I'm long winded.
Link Posted: 10/27/2009 10:33:12 PM EDT
[#43]
I'm glad to see you are OK, that could have been bad.  I only read page 1 and someone might have mentioned it, but IMO no one should be reloading pistol rounds without a Lee FCD, they do a good job sizing the round to assure a full chambering.  It does not look like you did anything wrong with loading, I would recommend sticking with a Lee Turret Press + Auto Disk Pro, it has served me well but who  knows it could be that I shoot a Springfield XDM 9mm and a S&W 1911, it seems glocks have issues with blowing up.
Link Posted: 10/27/2009 11:56:16 PM EDT
[#44]
After seeing your pictures, I'm inclined to agree about the out of battery condition. Are you sure the round before the KB exited the barrel? A squib  beyond the chamber would explain both the KB and the out of battery condition.
Link Posted: 10/28/2009 2:10:53 AM EDT
[#45]
I'm still thinking setback



Link Posted: 10/28/2009 4:03:56 AM EDT
[#46]


Yeah thats is a deep mark but I have been seating some deep with my KKM barrels it does make a lite load hot very fast ....but no kb with KKM
Link Posted: 10/28/2009 5:36:23 AM EDT
[#47]
With that deep seating mark and a OOB KB, there is a chance that what happened was the bullet wasn't crimped firmly enough and when chambering it got hung up and seated itself deeper. This caused the case to swell preventing it from fully chambering.

I usually test my crimps be trying to push the bullet into the case by hand. It it moves I add more crimp.
Link Posted: 10/28/2009 5:53:47 AM EDT
[#48]
I take my loads and beat them on a table 4 or 5 times with a good solid hit.  If they don't move I am good but more than .001" and I add mroe crimp.
Link Posted: 10/28/2009 6:09:46 AM EDT
[#49]


Wow, I didn't see that line till now.  In fact, it's still very hard to see it with the naked eye.  The flash of the camera sure highlights it though.  Well damn, that changes my thinking.  If that line is where the tail of the bullet was when fired then that is definately a set back.  Just by eyeballing it, if that were it, the COAL for the KB was around 1.05".  Thats far short of the 1.125" called for in the manuals.

So just so I understand what you guys are thinking, let me restate for clarification.  The bullet got pushed in while chambering, that caused the brass to bulge a little bit, causing the round to not fully chamber, thus also causing a slightly OOB firing, and an overpressurization issue due to the set back?

What do you think about that raised lip in the picture?  Is that OOB?  Or can the brass push that far out during a KB?
Link Posted: 10/28/2009 6:13:03 AM EDT
[#50]
Its difficult to judge a case by appearance after such a violent episode such as in your case. Lot of changes happen when they explode like that.
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