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Posted: 1/28/2023 11:59:12 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many of the people poo-pooing the forend and the Carmel in general have actually handled one? Sven Manticore Arms |
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Posted: 1/29/2023 12:54:51 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I throw a light, maybe a DBAL like once a year, switch, and VFG/AFG and call it good. I think people over estimate how much rail space they actually want or need. Until they’re carrying it all day or running and gunning. In a world where pounds suck, ounces matter. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: most people I know don’t care about tons of rail space because they slap an optic on their firearms and call it a day. Even if you use IR , light ,etc how much space do you need. I took my two rifles with the shortest rail space and packed everything you could possibly use on them to a ridiculous extent with no issues. https://i.imgur.com/qqputAJ.jpg https://i.imgur.com/txfC9GW.jpg I literally use my IR once or twice a year. The other 98% of the time I want my weapons as clutter free as possible.I’m a member of meal team 6 not seal team 6. I have no need or desire for 1/2lbs of extra rail that I will never use for anything. My reason for wanting this rifle is for my military gun fetish. It will never be a race gun except in oem drag, it’s not going to replace the AR in any capacity and it’s already a pig so anything you add to that enormous rail is just going to exacerbate that fact. I throw a light, maybe a DBAL like once a year, switch, and VFG/AFG and call it good. I think people over estimate how much rail space they actually want or need. Until they’re carrying it all day or running and gunning. In a world where pounds suck, ounces matter. |
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Posted: 1/29/2023 1:05:02 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many of the people poo-pooing the forend and the Carmel in general have actually handled one? Sven Manticore Arms Swing-and-a-miss. |
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Posted: 1/29/2023 3:41:28 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Swing-and-a-miss. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How many of the people poo-pooing the forend and the Carmel in general have actually handled one? Sven Manticore Arms Swing-and-a-miss. Why do you say that? If people are “eating with their eyes” with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms |
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Posted: 1/29/2023 3:44:39 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why do you say that? If people are "eating with their eyes" with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms Sven, fair enough. Do you think IWI got the weight wrong? I've read a few times from YT comments from attendees that the rifle didn't feel like it was 8 lbs. Is there a rifle you felt it resembled closely to with regards to balance, ergos, and design? |
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Posted: 1/29/2023 5:55:12 PM EDT
[#6]
I’m sure the US Carmel was made with an eye toward LE department sales in addition to commercial sales. As such, IWI added contemporary features for the US market.
I understand the desire for a mil correct version of black (and shades of gray, green, tan, and brown) rifles. I like my euro import rifles in classic form for the most part. Hopefully the aftermarket releases things to make this dream come true for those who want it. |
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Posted: 1/29/2023 7:11:52 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why do you say that? If people are “eating with their eyes” with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: How many of the people poo-pooing the forend and the Carmel in general have actually handled one? Sven Manticore Arms Swing-and-a-miss. Why do you say that? If people are “eating with their eyes” with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms we want this.  The Bren 2 was a well thought out platform too but trying to be trendy with a big ugly generic mlok rail killed it for me and apparently quite a few others as well. IWI already has to overcome the fact it’s not made in Israel, messing with the design to this degree is just driving that wedge that much deeper. The ones that don’t care about the rail would’ve bought it anyways, the moders also would have bought it and would have paid you money for what they want. I’ve literally been drooling over this rifle since it dropped in Israel years ago but now I find myself more interested in an Underfolder AK from Zastava than what’s being offered here by IWI at this point. Now you could possibly save this for some of us if you make a OG type handguard for this gun. |
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Posted: 1/29/2023 7:14:21 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why do you say that? If people are “eating with their eyes” with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms The changes themselves aren't an issue, but the results are wanting. The 8# weight seems excessive for a rifle of this caliber, & as I've already stated numerous times, the HG format is an improvement, but it is rather long in my view, & contributes to its weight. JMO. |
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Posted: 1/29/2023 7:45:21 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The changes themselves aren't an issue, but the results are wanting. The 8# weight seems excessive for a rifle of this caliber, & as I've already stated numerous times; the HG format is an improvement, but it is rather long in my view, & contributes to its weight. JMO. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why do you say that? If people are “eating with their eyes” with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms The changes themselves aren't an issue, but the results are wanting. The 8# weight seems excessive for a rifle of this caliber, & as I've already stated numerous times; the HG format is an improvement, but it is rather long in my view, & contributes to its weight. JMO. The weight is indeed a bit nuts for a 5.56 carbine... Sure, I have to remember that it's a piston gun and those tend to be heavier than any equivalent stoner gas system AR pattern rifle. However, even a 20" gov't barrel M16A4 weighs less doesn't it? I also like to make all my 3rd Gen rifle comparisons to the ARX because it seems like Beretta got the weight right for what it is. Plus the ARX has got all of the cool features and then some... Minus a cheek riser and QD sling sockets of course. 
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Posted: 1/29/2023 7:53:39 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sven, fair enough. Do you think IWI got the weight wrong? I've read a few times from YT comments from attendees that the rifle didn't feel like it was 8 lbs. Is there a rifle you felt it resembled closely to with regards to balance, ergos, and design? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why do you say that? If people are "eating with their eyes" with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms Sven, fair enough. Do you think IWI got the weight wrong? I've read a few times from YT comments from attendees that the rifle didn't feel like it was 8 lbs. Is there a rifle you felt it resembled closely to with regards to balance, ergos, and design? Honestlly I do wonder if the webstore listed weight is incorrect, it did not feel any heavier than an X95 and if I was to guess I would have said 7.2 lbs, not 8.2 lbs. Sven Manticore Arms |
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Posted: 1/29/2023 8:04:29 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why do you say that? If people are “eating with their eyes” with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms Apologies for being a bit flippant. Where does the Carmel fit in the US market without the military/LE heritage? In a market flush with AR-15s and other rifles in 5.56, what's going to get the end-user consumer to spend their hard-earned dollar on the Carmel? Imagine if the AUG was completely redesigned for the US market, the original we've seen in movies and games completely unavailable to us. Those iconic lines and features removed and replaced to be more "American" (more than has already occurred). A monstrous Mlok handguard, no quick-change barrel. The same thought exercise should now be applied to the Carmel, and I contend that the brand, historical caché and mystique evaporated when the engineers butchered the Carmel for sale in the USA. With only the Mlok version for the US, the Carmel now competes with other options that could easily be considered more practical. Plenty of other tools better at poking holes in paper or bad guys. We've seen what it was, what it could be. Instead, we received a version dumbed down for the US market. The "coolness" and pedigree are completely gone (an important part of why things sell, whether the firearms industry want to acknowledge it or not). You're no longer offering an experience analog to professional end-users. Not only that, just poor design decisions all around. The handguard mating area "chevron", fake Mlok profiles milled into the handguard, cheap brick profile. It has no soul. The original Carmel stood alone, Mil/LE heritage intact. It was innovative, fresh, and looked f*cking cool. The US version lost its way and now has to compete in a crowded market. It just screams "this ain't it, dawg". |
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Posted: 1/29/2023 8:17:45 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Honestlly I do wonder if the webstore listed weight is incorrect, it did not feel any heavier than an X95 and if I was to guess I would have said 7.2 lbs, not 8.2 lbs. Sven Manticore Arms Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why do you say that? If people are "eating with their eyes" with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms Sven, fair enough. Do you think IWI got the weight wrong? I've read a few times from YT comments from attendees that the rifle didn't feel like it was 8 lbs. Is there a rifle you felt it resembled closely to with regards to balance, ergos, and design? Honestlly I do wonder if the webstore listed weight is incorrect, it did not feel any heavier than an X95 and if I was to guess I would have said 7.2 lbs, not 8.2 lbs. Sven Manticore Arms  |
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Posted: 1/29/2023 8:45:51 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the 12" skinnier profile bbl Israeli version with the polymer handguard lists at 7.2lbs and this is a pretty thick chunk of aluminum hanging off of the front. My X95 is heavy at 8 lbs bare and it has a great weight balance. I don't see how this couldn't be unnecessarily front heavy. https://i.imgur.com/aF4o8xg.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why do you say that? If people are "eating with their eyes" with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms Sven, fair enough. Do you think IWI got the weight wrong? I've read a few times from YT comments from attendees that the rifle didn't feel like it was 8 lbs. Is there a rifle you felt it resembled closely to with regards to balance, ergos, and design? Honestlly I do wonder if the webstore listed weight is incorrect, it did not feel any heavier than an X95 and if I was to guess I would have said 7.2 lbs, not 8.2 lbs. Sven Manticore Arms https://i.imgur.com/aF4o8xg.jpg Speaking only from my experiences with my former Virtus.. the handguard doesn't really add that much weight. Even after chopping the barrel down from 16" to 13.8" and swapping it for a shorter handguard, she was still a chunky rifle thanks to the heavier barrel profile and piston design over the original MCX's pencil barrel. In this case, I'm starting to think IWI got its weight measurement wrong 
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Posted: 1/29/2023 9:51:11 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Apologies for being a bit flippant. Where does the Carmel fit in the US market without the military/LE heritage? In a market flush with AR-15s and other rifles in 5.56, what's going to get the end-user consumer to spend their hard-earned dollar on the Carmel? Imagine if the AUG was completely redesigned for the US market, the original we've seen in movies and games completely unavailable to us. Those iconic lines and features removed and replaced to be more "American" (more than has already occurred). A monstrous Mlok handguard, no quick-change barrel. The same thought exercise should now be applied to the Carmel, and I contend that the brand, historical caché and mystique evaporated when the engineers butchered the Carmel for sale in the USA. With only the Mlok version for the US, the Carmel now competes with other options that could easily be considered more practical. Plenty of other tools better at poking holes in paper or bad guys. We've seen what it was, what it could be. Instead, we received a version dumbed down for the US market. The "coolness" and pedigree are completely gone (an important part of why things sell, whether the firearms industry want to acknowledge it or not). You're no longer offering an experience analog to professional end-users. Not only that, just poor design decisions all around. The handguard mating area "chevron", fake Mlok profiles milled into the handguard, cheap brick profile. It has no soul. The original Carmel stood alone, Mil/LE heritage intact. It was innovative, fresh, and looked f*cking cool. The US version lost its way and now has to compete in a crowded market. It just screams "this ain't it, dawg". Is the Israeli Carmel being used by Israeli mil and LE? |
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Posted: 1/29/2023 10:01:11 PM EDT
[#15]
I thought I saw a SHOT Show video where Tom Alibrando, with IWI, said no to that question.
I've been looking for the video, but haven't found it yet. He tell TFB that it was going to be 7.5 lbs. I'll keep looking. |
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Posted: 1/29/2023 11:16:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Speaking only from my experiences with my former Virtus.. the handguard doesn't really add that much weight. Even after chopping the barrel down from 16" to 13.8" and swapping it for a shorter handguard, she was still a chunky rifle thanks to the heavier barrel profile and piston design over the original MCX's pencil barrel. In this case, I'm starting to think IWI got its weight measurement wrong  |
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Posted: 1/30/2023 12:12:05 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Apologies for being a bit flippant. Where does the Carmel fit in the US market without the military/LE heritage? In a market flush with AR-15s and other rifles in 5.56, what's going to get the end-user consumer to spend their hard-earned dollar on the Carmel? Imagine if the AUG was completely redesigned for the US market, the original we've seen in movies and games completely unavailable to us. Those iconic lines and features removed and replaced to be more "American" (more than has already occurred). A monstrous Mlok handguard, no quick-change barrel. The same thought exercise should now be applied to the Carmel, and I contend that the brand, historical caché and mystique evaporated when the engineers butchered the Carmel for sale in the USA. With only the Mlok version for the US, the Carmel now competes with other options that could easily be considered more practical. Plenty of other tools better at poking holes in paper or bad guys. We've seen what it was, what it could be. Instead, we received a version dumbed down for the US market. The "coolness" and pedigree are completely gone (an important part of why things sell, whether the firearms industry want to acknowledge it or not). You're no longer offering an experience analog to professional end-users. Not only that, just poor design decisions all around. The handguard mating area "chevron", fake Mlok profiles milled into the handguard, cheap brick profile. It has no soul. The original Carmel stood alone, Mil/LE heritage intact. It was innovative, fresh, and looked f*cking cool. The US version lost its way and now has to compete in a crowded market. It just screams "this ain't it, dawg". Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why do you say that? If people are “eating with their eyes” with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms Apologies for being a bit flippant. Where does the Carmel fit in the US market without the military/LE heritage? In a market flush with AR-15s and other rifles in 5.56, what's going to get the end-user consumer to spend their hard-earned dollar on the Carmel? Imagine if the AUG was completely redesigned for the US market, the original we've seen in movies and games completely unavailable to us. Those iconic lines and features removed and replaced to be more "American" (more than has already occurred). A monstrous Mlok handguard, no quick-change barrel. The same thought exercise should now be applied to the Carmel, and I contend that the brand, historical caché and mystique evaporated when the engineers butchered the Carmel for sale in the USA. With only the Mlok version for the US, the Carmel now competes with other options that could easily be considered more practical. Plenty of other tools better at poking holes in paper or bad guys. We've seen what it was, what it could be. Instead, we received a version dumbed down for the US market. The "coolness" and pedigree are completely gone (an important part of why things sell, whether the firearms industry want to acknowledge it or not). You're no longer offering an experience analog to professional end-users. Not only that, just poor design decisions all around. The handguard mating area "chevron", fake Mlok profiles milled into the handguard, cheap brick profile. It has no soul. The original Carmel stood alone, Mil/LE heritage intact. It was innovative, fresh, and looked f*cking cool. The US version lost its way and now has to compete in a crowded market. It just screams "this ain't it, dawg". The Carmel does the same thing as the SCAR but at about half the price. I think that makes it pretty competitive in the market space. The ACR doesn't exist, and the Bren 2 (MS) is at best poorly supported by CZ. I can't think of another piston operated factory built gun that is competitive in the marketplace at this point, certainly not for any LEO contracts. Apparently the whole mystique to the Carmel, at least according to most the people here, was its angled polymer forend. You take that away and apparently it has nothing to offer(?) (besides the obvious ability to now actually mount the most common accessories on the market). Sven Manticore Arms |
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Posted: 1/30/2023 12:23:04 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Honestlly I do wonder if the webstore listed weight is incorrect, it did not feel any heavier than an X95 and if I was to guess I would have said 7.2 lbs, not 8.2 lbs. Sven Manticore Arms Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why do you say that? If people are "eating with their eyes" with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms Sven, fair enough. Do you think IWI got the weight wrong? I've read a few times from YT comments from attendees that the rifle didn't feel like it was 8 lbs. Is there a rifle you felt it resembled closely to with regards to balance, ergos, and design? Honestlly I do wonder if the webstore listed weight is incorrect, it did not feel any heavier than an X95 and if I was to guess I would have said 7.2 lbs, not 8.2 lbs. Sven Manticore Arms @Brok3n To be honest, the Carmel feel like a Beretta ARX-100 that was actually done right and not the flimsy plasticy thing the ARX-100 was (yes, I had one, and was horrified I could flex the receiver with my bare hands with basically no force). The Carmel has a piston system, nice ambi controls, the charging handle can be pushed through from left to right just like on an ARX-100, but the handle is much beefier and easier to use, and it has a folding stock with height adjustable cheekpiece. It basically checks all the boxes of what a modern rifle should be. It is made in the USA and at a price point that is competitive to any other piston 5.56 gun out there and competitive against anything that isn't an AR-15 in AR-15 production volumes. If I am being honest, quick change barrels are, well, a gimmick. A neat gimmick that does not really have any practical application in the real world unless you are talking an automatic rifle or belt fed weapon. Sure, it makes cleaning the gun easier, but also almost always affects the accuracy of the gun from everything I have seen in the real world. The reason the Tavor series has flyers seems to be from the assymetric barrel locking system, and the U.S. market throws a FIT about the groupings on that gun. With that kind of feedback from the U.S. market there is no wonder IWI decided to make it a simple barrel mounting system and ditch and QD system. I would also bet the beefed up barrel improves accuracy. That is my take from the limited time I handled it and talked to IWI about what it does and had them show me all the features at SHOT. To be honest, I couldn't come up with anything we could do to it as aftermarket parts, they checked all the boxes as far as I could tell and I still want to get one in house just to have one to play with. I have not shot it, so maybe my opinion will change then, but so far, everything in the design seems logical, practical, and well thought out, and I personally think it will do just fine as designed on the commercial market and should even have a shot at LEO contracts as it has very similar manual of arms to the AR-15, save for the charging handle location (which is much improved over the AR-15). Sven Manticore Arms |
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Posted: 1/30/2023 12:24:22 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Carmel does the same thing as the SCAR but at about half the price. I think that makes it pretty competitive in the market space. The ACR doesn't exist, and the Bren 2 (MS) is at best poorly supported by CZ. I can't think of another piston operated factory built gun that is competitive in the marketplace at this point, certainly not for any LEO contracts. Apparently the whole mystique to the Carmel, at least according to most the people here, was its angled polymer forend. You take that away and apparently it has nothing to offer(?) (besides the obvious ability to now actually mount the most common accessories on the market). Sven Manticore Arms Quote HistoryQuoted: The Carmel does the same thing as the SCAR but at about half the price. I think that makes it pretty competitive in the market space. The ACR doesn't exist, and the Bren 2 (MS) is at best poorly supported by CZ. I can't think of another piston operated factory built gun that is competitive in the marketplace at this point, certainly not for any LEO contracts. Apparently the whole mystique to the Carmel, at least according to most the people here, was its angled polymer forend. You take that away and apparently it has nothing to offer(?) (besides the obvious ability to now actually mount the most common accessories on the market). Sven Manticore Arms Quoted: @Brok3n To be honest, the Carmel feel like a Beretta ARX-100 that was actually done right and not the flimsy plasticy thing the ARX-100 was (yes, I had one, and was horrified I could flex the receiver with my bare hands with basically no force). The Carmel has a piston system, nice ambi controls, the charging handle can be pushed through from left to right just like on an ARX-100, but the handle is much beefier and easier to use, and it has a folding stock with height adjustable cheekpiece. It basically checks all the boxes of what a modern rifle should be. It is made in the USA and at a price point that is competitive to any other piston 5.56 gun out there and competitive against anything that isn't an AR-15 in AR-15 production volumes. If I am being honest, quick change barrels are, well, a gimmick. A neat gimmick that does not really have any practical application in the real world unless you are talking an automatic rifle or belt fed weapon. Sure, it makes cleaning the gun easier, but also almost always affects the accuracy of the gun from everything I have seen in the real world. The reason the Tavor series has flyers seems to be from the assymetric barrel locking system, and the U.S. market throws a FIT about the groupings on that gun. With that kind of feedback from the U.S. market there is no wonder IWI decided to make it a simple barrel mounting system and ditch and QD system. I would also bet the beefed up barrel improves accuracy. That is my take from the limited time I handled it and talked to IWI about what it does and had them show me all the features at SHOT. To be honest, I couldn't come up with anything we could do to it as aftermarket parts, they checked all the boxes as far as I could tell and I still want to get one in house just to have one to play with. I have not shot it, so maybe my opinion will change then, but so far, everything in the design seems logical, practical, and well thought out, and I personally think it will do just fine as designed on the commercial market and should even have a shot at LEO contracts as it has very similar manual of arms to the AR-15, save for the charging handle location (which is much improved over the AR-15). Sven Manticore Arms Well said, Sven. |
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Posted: 1/30/2023 12:27:26 AM EDT
[#20]
I can’t fully comprehend what these US divisions of foreign arms manufacturers are trying to accomplish by ‘altering’ their products for the “US market”.
They will never I repeat, never be able to compete with how inexpensive and modular the AR15 is. They can add all the gimmicks they want, you cannot overcome what the AR platform brings with it. Despite this, these manufacturers bastardize what would otherwise be really unique platforms and try to make them quasi-ARs. “Ditch the molded in grip, we need it to be compatible with AR grips!” “Change the stock mechanism, we need it to be compatible with AR buffer tubes!” “Get rid of the original FCG, we need it be be swappable with AR FCGs!” “It has a reciprocating charging handle!? Get rid of it and make one detached from the BCG!” “The handguard doesn’t have 10 MLOK slots!? Ditch that! We need a handguard that is as long as physically possible with as many MLOK slots to boot!” Stop trying to beat the AR at a game it cannot be beaten at. People want and buy these ‘oddball’ guns (SCAR, AUG, X95, APC, 805 BREN, Galil ACE, ACR, etc.) because they don’t want another basic AR-15. They want these guns because they’re different. They want these guns because they have a military pedigree, or they were featured in insert _______ TV show, movie, or video game. Maybe I have just analyzed this incorrectly, IWI USA and these other companies have the metrics and pay a lot of money for market research, so perhaps I am wrong in said analysis. But my opinion on the matter still stands. Since my account is “new” I am limited to 2,000 characters... |
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Posted: 1/30/2023 12:34:45 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The changes themselves aren't an issue, but the results are wanting. The 8# weight seems excessive for a rifle of this caliber, & as I've already stated numerous times; the HG format is an improvement, but it is rather long in my view, & contributes to its weight. JMO. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why do you say that? If people are “eating with their eyes” with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms The changes themselves aren't an issue, but the results are wanting. The 8# weight seems excessive for a rifle of this caliber, & as I've already stated numerous times; the HG format is an improvement, but it is rather long in my view, & contributes to its weight. JMO. I would agree that 8.2 lbs is on the high end of a piston driven gun in the vein of the SCAR/BREN 2/Bushmaster ACR, and you comment that the exrtra handguard length adds to that is certainly a valid point too. I haven't taken a Carmel apart or really dug into one, maybe that forend does add a considerable amount of weight, as does a beefed up barrel profile, or maybe it is the "devil is in the details" of ounces here and there on components adding up. Maybe the simple solution would hypothetically be polymer forend that emulates the original style, but just has M-LOK slots in it to get the best of both worlds- the look of the original and the function of M-LOK. Sven Manticore Arms |
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Posted: 1/30/2023 1:06:28 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would agree that 8.2 lbs is on the high end of a piston driven gun in the vein of the SCAR/BREN 2/Bushmaster ACR, and you comment that the exrtra handguard length adds to that is certainly a valid point too. I haven't taken a Carmel apart or really dug into one, maybe that forend does add a considerable amount of weight, as does a beefed up barrel profile, or maybe it is the "devil is in the details" of ounces here and there on components adding up. Maybe the simple solution would hypothetically be polymer forend that emulates the original style, but just has M-LOK slots in it to get the best of both worlds- the look of the original and the function of M-LOK. Sven Manticore Arms Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why do you say that? If people are “eating with their eyes” with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms The changes themselves aren't an issue, but the results are wanting. The 8# weight seems excessive for a rifle of this caliber, & as I've already stated numerous times; the HG format is an improvement, but it is rather long in my view, & contributes to its weight. JMO. I would agree that 8.2 lbs is on the high end of a piston driven gun in the vein of the SCAR/BREN 2/Bushmaster ACR, and you comment that the exrtra handguard length adds to that is certainly a valid point too. I haven't taken a Carmel apart or really dug into one, maybe that forend does add a considerable amount of weight, as does a beefed up barrel profile, or maybe it is the "devil is in the details" of ounces here and there on components adding up. Maybe the simple solution would hypothetically be polymer forend that emulates the original style, but just has M-LOK slots in it to get the best of both worlds- the look of the original and the function of M-LOK. Sven Manticore Arms Not a fan of M-LOK, but I'm even more against M-LOK in plastic slots. I won't even use the M-LOK slots in my Magpul Handguards to mount M-LOK accessories. I know why it caught on (mainly the weight savings with long FF handguards), but as a mounting system it just kinda blows. I believe the original Carmel had fixed picatinny under rail covers? I might be off since I never had a lot of interest in the Carmel, but fixed picatinny is always my preference. There were maybe a couple things that I didn't like about the original (not yet Americanized) Carmel, so it's hard to say whether I would have went for one no matter how it came out here... But, I do believe I would have been more likely to go for the original version because it was at least unique. |
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Posted: 1/30/2023 1:32:02 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Brok3n To be honest, the Carmel feel like a Beretta ARX-100 that was actually done right and not the flimsy plasticy thing the ARX-100 was (yes, I had one, and was horrified I could flex the receiver with my bare hands with basically no force). The Carmel has a piston system, nice ambi controls, the charging handle can be pushed through from left to right just like on an ARX-100, but the handle is much beefier and easier to use, and it has a folding stock with height adjustable cheekpiece. It basically checks all the boxes of what a modern rifle should be. It is made in the USA and at a price point that is competitive to any other piston 5.56 gun out there and competitive against anything that isn't an AR-15 in AR-15 production volumes. If I am being honest, quick change barrels are, well, a gimmick. A neat gimmick that does not really have any practical application in the real world unless you are talking an automatic rifle or belt fed weapon. Sure, it makes cleaning the gun easier, but also almost always affects the accuracy of the gun from everything I have seen in the real world. The reason the Tavor series has flyers seems to be from the assymetric barrel locking system, and the U.S. market throws a FIT about the groupings on that gun. With that kind of feedback from the U.S. market there is no wonder IWI decided to make it a simple barrel mounting system and ditch and QD system. I would also bet the beefed up barrel improves accuracy. That is my take from the limited time I handled it and talked to IWI about what it does and had them show me all the features at SHOT. To be honest, I couldn't come up with anything we could do to it as aftermarket parts, they checked all the boxes as far as I could tell and I still want to get one in house just to have one to play with. I have not shot it, so maybe my opinion will change then, but so far, everything in the design seems logical, practical, and well thought out, and I personally think it will do just fine as designed on the commercial market and should even have a shot at LEO contracts as it has very similar manual of arms to the AR-15, save for the charging handle location (which is much improved over the AR-15). Sven Manticore Arms I'm not crazy about the 2x4 formfactor of the rail but if it works it works. My biggest concern is weight and balance. We will all have to make our decisions when they actually get out into peoples hands. I would be interested in a polymer rail that look like the original. |
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Posted: 1/30/2023 3:38:48 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I am being honest, quick change barrels are, well, a gimmick. A neat gimmick that does not really have any practical application in the real world unless you are talking an automatic rifle or belt fed weapon. Sure, it makes cleaning the gun easier, but also almost always affects the accuracy of the gun from everything I have seen in the real world. The reason the Tavor series has flyers seems to be from the assymetric barrel locking system, and the U.S. market throws a FIT about the groupings on that gun. With that kind of feedback from the U.S. market there is no wonder IWI decided to make it a simple barrel mounting system and ditch and QD system. I would also bet the beefed up barrel improves accuracy. Quote HistoryQuoted: If I am being honest, quick change barrels are, well, a gimmick. A neat gimmick that does not really have any practical application in the real world unless you are talking an automatic rifle or belt fed weapon. Sure, it makes cleaning the gun easier, but also almost always affects the accuracy of the gun from everything I have seen in the real world. The reason the Tavor series has flyers seems to be from the assymetric barrel locking system, and the U.S. market throws a FIT about the groupings on that gun. With that kind of feedback from the U.S. market there is no wonder IWI decided to make it a simple barrel mounting system and ditch and QD system. I would also bet the beefed up barrel improves accuracy. Barrel change is nice for converting different barrel lengths & calibers. Quoted: I would agree that 8.2 lbs is on the high end of a piston driven gun in the vein of the SCAR/BREN 2/Bushmaster ACR, and you comment that the exrtra handguard length adds to that is certainly a valid point too. I haven't taken a Carmel apart or really dug into one, maybe that forend does add a considerable amount of weight, as does a beefed up barrel profile, or maybe it is the "devil is in the details" of ounces here and there on components adding up. Maybe the simple solution would hypothetically be polymer forend that emulates the original style, but just has M-LOK slots in it to get the best of both worlds- the look of the original and the function of M-LOK. Sven Manticore Arms Again, I'm fine with that factory MLok HG in a shorter length. |
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Posted: 1/30/2023 3:41:44 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would agree that 8.2 lbs is on the high end of a piston driven gun in the vein of the SCAR/BREN 2/Bushmaster ACR, and you comment that the exrtra handguard length adds to that is certainly a valid point too. I haven't taken a Carmel apart or really dug into one, maybe that forend does add a considerable amount of weight, as does a beefed up barrel profile, or maybe it is the "devil is in the details" of ounces here and there on components adding up. Maybe the simple solution would hypothetically be polymer forend that emulates the original style, but just has M-LOK slots in it to get the best of both worlds- the look of the original and the function of M-LOK. Sven Manticore Arms Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why do you say that? If people are “eating with their eyes” with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms The changes themselves aren't an issue, but the results are wanting. The 8# weight seems excessive for a rifle of this caliber, & as I've already stated numerous times; the HG format is an improvement, but it is rather long in my view, & contributes to its weight. JMO. I would agree that 8.2 lbs is on the high end of a piston driven gun in the vein of the SCAR/BREN 2/Bushmaster ACR, and you comment that the exrtra handguard length adds to that is certainly a valid point too. I haven't taken a Carmel apart or really dug into one, maybe that forend does add a considerable amount of weight, as does a beefed up barrel profile, or maybe it is the "devil is in the details" of ounces here and there on components adding up. Maybe the simple solution would hypothetically be polymer forend that emulates the original style, but just has M-LOK slots in it to get the best of both worlds- the look of the original and the function of M-LOK. Sven Manticore Arms |
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Posted: 1/30/2023 11:19:29 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can’t fully comprehend what these US divisions of foreign arms manufacturers are trying to accomplish by ‘altering’ their products for the “US market”. They will never I repeat, never be able to compete with how inexpensive and modular the AR15 is. They can add all the gimmicks they want, you cannot overcome what the AR platform brings with it. Despite this, these manufacturers bastardize what would otherwise be really unique platforms and try to make them quasi-ARs. “Ditch the molded in grip, we need it to be compatible with AR grips!” “Change the stock mechanism, we need it to be compatible with AR buffer tubes!” “Get rid of the original FCG, we need it be be swappable with AR FCGs!” “It has a reciprocating charging handle!? Get rid of it and make one detached from the BCG!” “The handguard doesn’t have 10 MLOK slots!? Ditch that! We need a handguard that is as long as physically possible with as many MLOK slots to boot!” Stop trying to beat the AR at a game it cannot be beaten at. People want and buy these ‘oddball’ guns (SCAR, AUG, X95, APC, 805 BREN, Galil ACE, ACR, etc.) because they don’t want another basic AR-15. They want these guns because they’re different. They want these guns because they have a military pedigree, or they were featured in insert _______ TV show, movie, or video game. Maybe I have just analyzed this incorrectly, IWI USA and these other companies have the metrics and pay a lot of money for market research, so perhaps I am wrong in said analysis. But my opinion on the matter still stands. Since my account is “new” I am limited to 2,000 characters... I like you....for a new guy. Very well said.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/30/2023 1:38:12 PM EDT
[#27]
This gun is going up against the B&T APC556 and the likes of the SCAR16, CZ Bren 2…etc. but at a more competitive price point. I like that it takes AR grips as it gives me more options to fit me better and be more comfortable. Because you know, I will actually shoot this and not just keep it unused in a collection. Same with the handguard. Yeah maybe it looks a little too blocky, but I am happy MLOK was the route instead of 1913.
I think this platform still has a lot of potential. But it’s hard to play catch up to the likes of the FN SCAR or the Sig MCX platforms. But IWI has the potential to do so. |
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Posted: 1/31/2023 2:42:21 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Brok3n To be honest, the Carmel feel like a Beretta ARX-100 that was actually done right and not the flimsy plasticy thing the ARX-100 was (yes, I had one, and was horrified I could flex the receiver with my bare hands with basically no force). The Carmel has a piston system, nice ambi controls, the charging handle can be pushed through from left to right just like on an ARX-100, but the handle is much beefier and easier to use, and it has a folding stock with height adjustable cheekpiece. It basically checks all the boxes of what a modern rifle should be. It is made in the USA and at a price point that is competitive to any other piston 5.56 gun out there and competitive against anything that isn't an AR-15 in AR-15 production volumes. If I am being honest, quick change barrels are, well, a gimmick. A neat gimmick that does not really have any practical application in the real world unless you are talking an automatic rifle or belt fed weapon. Sure, it makes cleaning the gun easier, but also almost always affects the accuracy of the gun from everything I have seen in the real world. The reason the Tavor series has flyers seems to be from the assymetric barrel locking system, and the U.S. market throws a FIT about the groupings on that gun. With that kind of feedback from the U.S. market there is no wonder IWI decided to make it a simple barrel mounting system and ditch and QD system. I would also bet the beefed up barrel improves accuracy. That is my take from the limited time I handled it and talked to IWI about what it does and had them show me all the features at SHOT. To be honest, I couldn't come up with anything we could do to it as aftermarket parts, they checked all the boxes as far as I could tell and I still want to get one in house just to have one to play with. I have not shot it, so maybe my opinion will change then, but so far, everything in the design seems logical, practical, and well thought out, and I personally think it will do just fine as designed on the commercial market and should even have a shot at LEO contracts as it has very similar manual of arms to the AR-15, save for the charging handle location (which is much improved over the AR-15). Sven Manticore Arms Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why do you say that? If people are "eating with their eyes" with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms Sven, fair enough. Do you think IWI got the weight wrong? I've read a few times from YT comments from attendees that the rifle didn't feel like it was 8 lbs. Is there a rifle you felt it resembled closely to with regards to balance, ergos, and design? Honestlly I do wonder if the webstore listed weight is incorrect, it did not feel any heavier than an X95 and if I was to guess I would have said 7.2 lbs, not 8.2 lbs. Sven Manticore Arms @Brok3n To be honest, the Carmel feel like a Beretta ARX-100 that was actually done right and not the flimsy plasticy thing the ARX-100 was (yes, I had one, and was horrified I could flex the receiver with my bare hands with basically no force). The Carmel has a piston system, nice ambi controls, the charging handle can be pushed through from left to right just like on an ARX-100, but the handle is much beefier and easier to use, and it has a folding stock with height adjustable cheekpiece. It basically checks all the boxes of what a modern rifle should be. It is made in the USA and at a price point that is competitive to any other piston 5.56 gun out there and competitive against anything that isn't an AR-15 in AR-15 production volumes. If I am being honest, quick change barrels are, well, a gimmick. A neat gimmick that does not really have any practical application in the real world unless you are talking an automatic rifle or belt fed weapon. Sure, it makes cleaning the gun easier, but also almost always affects the accuracy of the gun from everything I have seen in the real world. The reason the Tavor series has flyers seems to be from the assymetric barrel locking system, and the U.S. market throws a FIT about the groupings on that gun. With that kind of feedback from the U.S. market there is no wonder IWI decided to make it a simple barrel mounting system and ditch and QD system. I would also bet the beefed up barrel improves accuracy. That is my take from the limited time I handled it and talked to IWI about what it does and had them show me all the features at SHOT. To be honest, I couldn't come up with anything we could do to it as aftermarket parts, they checked all the boxes as far as I could tell and I still want to get one in house just to have one to play with. I have not shot it, so maybe my opinion will change then, but so far, everything in the design seems logical, practical, and well thought out, and I personally think it will do just fine as designed on the commercial market and should even have a shot at LEO contracts as it has very similar manual of arms to the AR-15, save for the charging handle location (which is much improved over the AR-15). Sven Manticore Arms Sven, Thank you for that post and your opinions on it. Based on the feedback here, I think there's room for an original clone handguard Although I noticed the IWI rep in one video said they simply didn't have the tech to replicate the handguard in the US. I'm debating buying a SCAR16 but will wait to see independent reviews of the Carmel.
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Posted: 1/31/2023 6:44:05 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Although I noticed the IWI rep in one video said they simply didn't have the tech to replicate the handguard in the US. They should just import it and revert changes to fit as the work has already been done. |
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Posted: 1/31/2023 1:50:53 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They should just import it and revert changes to fit as the work has already been done. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Although I noticed the IWI rep in one video said they simply didn't have the tech to replicate the handguard in the US. They should just import it and revert changes to fit as the work has already been done. The entire reason they are making the Carmel in the USA is importation approvals have been harder and harder to get. Holding up the whole production of a rifle for a single part that may have spotty to no ability to get imported is a poor business financial decision that undermines the whole purpose of making it here in the first place. The technology to make the polymer forend exists here in the USA, the problem is the cost to make the handguard the way IWI designed it do is wildly expensive- molding picatinny on three surfaces at 90 degrees to each other makes for a very, very complicated and expensive mold design. Sven Manticore Arms |
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Posted: 1/31/2023 2:37:04 PM EDT
[#31]
So, it's made entirely in the US?? I was under the impression, perhaps incorrectly, that many US made firearms used just enough US made parts here to qualify as "US made" with the rest of them being imported.
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Posted: 1/31/2023 5:18:03 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So, it's made entirely in the US?? I was under the impression, perhaps incorrectly, that many US made firearms used just enough US made parts here to qualify as "US made" with the rest of them being imported. Historically, yes, but the ATF has been making it a lot harder on some players lately. IWI got kicked in the junk last year when the Alphabet Bois decided to prohibit them importing .300 BLK and 9mm Tavor parts from Israel. IWI has been burned multiple times, so they're probably just setting themselves up with the Carmel to be safe from that sort of arbitrary agency action. |
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Posted: 1/31/2023 8:22:54 PM EDT
[#33]
Well, then I should have said ‘if they’re importing any parts of the Carmel, I wish they’d just import the original handguard and revert changes to fit, as the OG HG design, testing, molds, etc have already been done.’
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Posted: 1/31/2023 9:18:55 PM EDT
[#34]
I can understand and accept the loss of the QD barrel, especially after the X95's less than stellar accuracy issues.
But the handguard sucks. It'd be like if HK said they're going to start selling XM-8's that look like this;  Attached FileSorry for the photochop.
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Posted: 1/31/2023 11:16:53 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But the handguard sucks. It'd be like if HK said they're going to start selling XM-8's that look like this;https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/527441/iMarkup_20230131_191129_jpg-2693084.JPG Sorry for the photochop. Now that's repulsive...  But, you'd still have people defending it if HK dropped that Americanized abortion version of the XM-8.  Of course the built in optic would be completely gone and the top rail extended all the way back, it would have removable AR grips with one of the in vogue vertical angled pistol grips already installed, it would take AR mags and the stock would be changed for something that uses an AR buffer tube. The handguard would of course be M-LOK and not Keymod.  But the icing on the cake is that it would now weigh 10+ pounds unloaded and the cool HK ambi top charging handle would be replaced by something similar to what the FN SCAR has. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:38:41 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Now that's repulsive... But, you'd still have people defending it if HK dropped that Americanized abortion version of the XM-8. Of course the built in optic would be completely gone and the top rail extended all the way back, it would have removable AR grips with one of the in vogue vertical angled pistol grips already installed, it would take AR mags and the stock would be changed for something that uses an AR buffer tube. The handguard would of course be M-LOK and not Keymod. But the icing on the cake is that it would now weigh 10+ pounds unloaded and the cool HK ambi top charging handle would be replaced by something similar to what the FN SCAR has. I tried putting an ar grip on it, but it looked so bad I couldn't go through with it. I'll let someone with Photoshop (not just some shitty phone app) make that abortion.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 11:14:14 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The entire reason they are making the Carmel in the USA is importation approvals have been harder and harder to get. Holding up the whole production of a rifle for a single part that may have spotty to no ability to get imported is a poor business financial decision that undermines the whole purpose of making it here in the first place. The technology to make the polymer forend exists here in the USA, the problem is the cost to make the handguard the way IWI designed it do is wildly expensive- molding picatinny on three surfaces at 90 degrees to each other makes for a very, very complicated and expensive mold design. Sven Manticore Arms Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Although I noticed the IWI rep in one video said they simply didn't have the tech to replicate the handguard in the US. They should just import it and revert changes to fit as the work has already been done. The entire reason they are making the Carmel in the USA is importation approvals have been harder and harder to get. Holding up the whole production of a rifle for a single part that may have spotty to no ability to get imported is a poor business financial decision that undermines the whole purpose of making it here in the first place. The technology to make the polymer forend exists here in the USA, the problem is the cost to make the handguard the way IWI designed it do is wildly expensive- molding picatinny on three surfaces at 90 degrees to each other makes for a very, very complicated and expensive mold design. Sven Manticore Arms I personally don't have any problem with the MLok format. If this HG ended behind the gas block rather than being elongated over it with an access port, a la their "Gen 2" Galil lineup, I bet there'd be less criticism. I have no idea how this set up has become such a signature feature with IWI's lineup, but I hope it changes. Not a fan. The change from QD lever to (torx?) bolts underneath the HG isn't necessarily a let down, either. Just not as tool-less QD "slick". The weight does seem to be owed to a heavier profile barrel, which I'm guessing is because of deliberate emphasis on accuracy, as Jeremy Gresham expressly stated would be the case going forward with future projects (almost verbatim) from their experience with the Tavor 7. So, not surprising. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 11:31:05 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I tried putting an ar grip on it, but it looked so bad I couldn't go through with it. I'll let someone with Photoshop (not just some shitty phone app) make that abortion. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Now that's repulsive... But, you'd still have people defending it if HK dropped that Americanized abortion version of the XM-8. Of course the built in optic would be completely gone and the top rail extended all the way back, it would have removable AR grips with one of the in vogue vertical angled pistol grips already installed, it would take AR mags and the stock would be changed for something that uses an AR buffer tube. The handguard would of course be M-LOK and not Keymod. But the icing on the cake is that it would now weigh 10+ pounds unloaded and the cool HK ambi top charging handle would be replaced by something similar to what the FN SCAR has. I tried putting an ar grip on it, but it looked so bad I couldn't go through with it. I'll let someone with Photoshop (not just some shitty phone app) make that abortion. Just got to leave it to the gun companies to photoshop these things... They are the only ones with minds that devious as to ruin a perfectly good Euro rifle. I just like my fish guns to look like fish as intended. Or in the case of the Carmel, a moose camel/fish hybrid. |
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Posted: 2/3/2023 11:46:30 AM EDT
[#39]
In this interview Tom Alibrando says a few parts come from Israel, but all metal parts are US made. Maybe there is hope for importing the poly handguard in the future. Around 3:44 in the video. He also says the weight is 7 1/2 lbs.
 SHOT SHOW 2023 Day 3. IWI Carmel and Masada |
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Posted: 2/3/2023 5:51:27 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can understand and accept the loss of the QD barrel, especially after the X95's less than stellar accuracy issues. But the handguard sucks. It'd be like if HK said they're going to start selling XM-8's that look like this;https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/527441/iMarkup_20230131_191129_jpg-2693084.JPG Sorry for the photochop.  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/3/2023 10:25:55 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In this interview Tom Alibrando says a few parts come from Israel, but all metal parts are US made. Maybe there is hope for importing the poly handguard in the future. Around 3:44 in the video. He also says the weight is 7 1/2 lbs.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo_HhxuVvOQAustin Smith from IWI said it’s all US made, they said they couldn’t import the hand guards or other parts in quantities they need because the ATF wouldn’t let them. They also confirmed the weight to be 8.2lbs. I brought up the video and they said they would work on getting everyone at IWI on the same page. |
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Posted: 2/3/2023 11:52:15 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Austin Smith from IWI said it's all US made, they said they couldn't import the hand guards or other parts in quantities they need because the ATF wouldn't let them. They also confirmed the weight to be 8.2lbs. I brought up the video and they said they would work on getting everyone at IWI on the same page. Oh well, it is what it is. You would think they would have prepped for a big launch at Shot Show. I just want these to make it into the wild so I can get my hands on it. |
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Posted: 2/4/2023 3:58:35 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Austin Smith from IWI said it’s all US made, they said they couldn’t import the hand guards or other parts in quantities they need because the ATF wouldn’t let them. They also confirmed the weight to be 8.2lbs. I brought up the video and they said they would work on getting everyone at IWI on the same page. Their own spec sheet says it's 8#+2 oz = 8.125#, not 8.2#. Still could stand to lose at least 1/2#. |
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Posted: 2/4/2023 8:42:59 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Austin Smith from IWI said it’s all US made... If that’s the case, after injection molding the receiver, the HG should be a walk in the park. |
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Posted: 2/4/2023 9:45:52 AM EDT
[#45]
8.2 lbs is not light
Surely they could knock a half pound off of that. |
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Posted: 2/4/2023 10:54:22 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 8.2 lbs is not light Surely they could knock a half pound off of that. I want to see a breakdown of where the weight is at. If it is in the handguard then I'm sure someone will come out with a lighter one. With Sven saying it balances well and feels lighter then maybe the weight is more to the rear, like the Tavors are chunky but feel fine while handling(at least to me). Since his business is selling parts to "fix" problems his comments give me hope, he could have dumped all over the Carmel to set up future business. As usual with Shot Show announcements the waiting for products to actually ship is the worst part. I think it will all come down to aesthetics for some and how it actually feels in the hands for others, no one is questioning it's functioning/durability. If IWI can get a good push out of the gate with a decent supply and street price then the aftermarket will follow to spiffy it up. |
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Posted: 2/7/2023 6:37:03 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can’t fully comprehend what these US divisions of foreign arms manufacturers are trying to accomplish by ‘altering’ their products for the “US market”. They will never I repeat, never be able to compete with how inexpensive and modular the AR15 is. They can add all the gimmicks they want, you cannot overcome what the AR platform brings with it. Despite this, these manufacturers bastardize what would otherwise be really unique platforms and try to make them quasi-ARs. “Ditch the molded in grip, we need it to be compatible with AR grips!” “Change the stock mechanism, we need it to be compatible with AR buffer tubes!” “Get rid of the original FCG, we need it be be swappable with AR FCGs!” “It has a reciprocating charging handle!? Get rid of it and make one detached from the BCG!” “The handguard doesn’t have 10 MLOK slots!? Ditch that! We need a handguard that is as long as physically possible with as many MLOK slots to boot!” Stop trying to beat the AR at a game it cannot be beaten at. People want and buy these ‘oddball’ guns (SCAR, AUG, X95, APC, 805 BREN, Galil ACE, ACR, etc.) because they don’t want another basic AR-15. They want these guns because they’re different. They want these guns because they have a military pedigree, or they were featured in insert _______ TV show, movie, or video game. Maybe I have just analyzed this incorrectly, IWI USA and these other companies have the metrics and pay a lot of money for market research, so perhaps I am wrong in said analysis. But my opinion on the matter still stands. Since my account is “new” I am limited to 2,000 characters... Nailed It. |
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Posted: 2/7/2023 10:30:03 PM EDT
[#48]
I'm actually excited for the Carmel just as it is. I'd love it though if they offered the military handguard avail as an accessory.
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Posted: 2/8/2023 9:46:38 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This gun is going up against the B&T APC556 and the likes of the SCAR16, CZ Bren 2…etc. but at a more competitive price point. I like that it takes AR grips as it gives me more options to fit me better and be more comfortable. Because you know, I will actually shoot this and not just keep it unused in a collection. Same with the handguard. Yeah maybe it looks a little too blocky, but I am happy MLOK was the route instead of 1913. I think this platform still has a lot of potential. But it’s hard to play catch up to the likes of the FN SCAR or the Sig MCX platforms. But IWI has the potential to do so. At this point I’d consider an APC over the Carmel and it pains me so much to say that. |
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Posted: 2/8/2023 9:57:16 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At this point I’d consider an APC over the Carmel and it pains me so much to say that. APCs are really well made guns. They oddly look a little utilitarian, but the fit and finish is unreal on them. I had the APC308 and it was a much, much nicer gun than the SCARs I've owned. |
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