Magpul PDR - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Magpul PDR (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 5/24/2007 5:20:30 PM EDT

[#1]

tag

Posted: 5/25/2007 7:49:45 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm intrigued by the design, but I have some concerns. First, can they tame the flash on a 5.56 round from 10-12 inch barrel? Second, how is the recoil? With such a light gun the recoil is most likely going to be greater than a Stoner based system. It looks like they got a Levang Compensator on the front of it, which could help the both the flash and muzzle rise, but I am still a tad skeptical. The design seems to have a lot of positives, but I would like to see how it stacks up against Knight’s, HK's, and FN's designs.

I agree...I'm skeptical, but optimistic as well.

I'm really pulling for Magpul as I think they think more outside the box than any other American firearms company.

I would like to see a US company start pulling the contracts that have been going to companies like HK and Fn.

The necessary ingredient at this stage of their evolution is the development of mass production capability for complete firearms mfg. Either they contract/outsource or secure the funding to do it at the home base.

Would they have to be set-up for mass production before winning a large military contract or would that be something they could do after winning one?

Seems like they would have no problem finding the money to amp up mass production once they won a contract, but it would be a bit of a gamble to take if they went to the expense of having a large factory only to fall flat.

I suppose they could start with civilian and LEO sales to get the capital together to a make a run at a military contract.

This gets into chicken v. egg stuff. On the one hand, they probably need to be able to meet certain gov't procurement stds for quantity & quality control. I suppose there might be some latitude here depending on the number of units the gov't is looking to buy, but I can't say for certain as I don't deal w/ gov't solicitations. They may have existing resources to fill a certain number of orders at a certain rate w/in QC requirements. I don't know precisely how a small might make the leap into "big" proiduction capacity w/o firm orders, as that's a risky investment proposition w/o firm sales orders. Commercial markets seem to be the way most of the big firms have raised their production capacities, w/ gov't contracts providing an economic boost along the way.

Production outsourcing enables a company to "leapfrog" more dirctly into large-scale production w/o having to gamble on raising its in-house production capacity. Still takes money, but it allows the organization to adapt more quickly to demand. Ousourcing isn't full-proof, as most saw w/ the Ares Shrike fiasco. All that was partly attributed to outsource mfg quality problems. Getting the right players & getting all the ducks in a row can be a challenge, but if it worked, they could theoretcally jump into FN-like production & QC, then scale back afterwards, or even invest their profits to tool up for higher in-house production volume.

MagPul is in an interesting stage of its organizational development right now.

Posted: 5/26/2007 10:24:42 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
tag

Way off topic, but badazzar...who is that chick in your avatar?

Posted: 5/26/2007 11:22:12 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
tag

Way off topic, but badazzar...who is that chick in your avatar?

Its the girlfriend of the villian from The Transporter 2.

Posted: 5/26/2007 12:39:44 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
tag

Way off topic, but badazzar...who is that chick in your avatar?

Its the girlfriend of the villian from The Transporter 2.

Ahhh, I thought it was her...what a babe.

Posted: 5/29/2007 11:22:46 PM EDT

[#6]

i love the concept of the PDW... i agree keeping with a standard round makes more sense... however... it seems for the military that the CTAR-21 or the MTAR-21 is already a battle proven plateform that has almost all the same features...

however, I am looking at this very close because magpul is an awesome company... i would love to see a perm. attached Noveske krink to a max of 16" released for civilian sale... the old Bushmater M17 bullpup always interested me but had a lot of short falls... this one looks quite promising

Posted: 5/30/2007 9:04:06 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
i love the concept of the PDW... i agree keeping with a standard round makes more sense... however... it seems for the military that the CTAR-21 or the MTAR-21 is already a battle proven plateform that has almost all the same features...

however, I am looking at this very close because magpul is an awesome company... i would love to see a perm. attached Noveske krink to a max of 16" released for civilian sale... the old Bushmater M17 bullpup always interested me but had a lot of short falls... this one looks quite promising

The Tavor wasn't born a PDW. The CTAR-21 and MTAR-21 are just cut down version the TAR-21. They don't have the polygonal barrel and suffer the same loss of velocity found in very short barreled AR carbines. IMI made a 9mm conversion kit for the MTAR-21 because they new the recoil from the 5.56 with it would be pretty horrendous in full auto or burst.

Lets also not forget that IMI is not an American company the military could go with the MP7 or the P90 as well, but it would be nice if they could go with an American company.

Posted: 5/31/2007 5:36:36 AM EDT

[#8]

Bullpup =

Posted: 5/31/2007 1:29:47 PM EDT

[#9]

Polygonal barrels do not increase velocity. Not the button rifled kind at least.

Posted: 5/31/2007 9:36:19 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Polygonal barrels do not increase velocity. Not the button rifled kind at least.

The PDR (TM) is slated to incorporate polygonal rifling, which increases bullet velocity over traditional rifling by creating a better gas seal around/behind the bullet, and allowing less gas to escape around the bullet as the round is fired.

defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1011

Posted: 6/3/2007 2:31:58 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Here's what I'm guessing the 12.5" bbl version will look like:

www.visuality.com/personal/magpul/magpulpdw12_5.jpg

The 115gr OTM 6.8SPC loads from SSA chrono at around 2380fps at the muzzle out of a 12.5" bbl. Given the right chamber and twist, SSA combat loadings could push that to over 2470fps (which is what the original Remington loads were getting out of a 12" bbl). Considering that Dr. Gary Roberts estimates the frag threshold of 6.8SPC at 2100fps, the 12.5" bbl version would be a formidable manstopper in a really tiny package. Based on Greg Dennison's numbers from the 2004 NDIA Symposium, I'd guesstimate the fragmentation range to be around 180 yds for the combat loadings. I know I'd line up to buy one.

But would you still have eyebrows?

96Ag

Suppressor or Noveske it

Posted: 6/3/2007 7:40:51 PM EDT

[#12]

Well given the size of Magpul what do you think?

Masada 2008

PDR 2009

Or do you guys think that the PDR is being developed along side the Masada and will come out shortly after the Masada?

Be cool if they had some videos or pictures of the actual weapon and not just the mock-up.

Maybe they haven't really dedicated themselves to going through with this and like so many concept cars will just be something that stays on the drawing board.

Posted: 6/3/2007 7:44:36 PM EDT

[#13]

Is it just me or is there anybody else who would want to see this baby run on FA with a beta Cmag.

If it would fit.

Posted: 6/3/2007 8:49:52 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Is it just me or is there anybody else who would want to see this baby run on FA with a beta Cmag.

If it would fit.

I want it in 6.8

Posted: 6/8/2007 8:28:28 PM EDT

[#15]

Count me in...............

Posted: 6/9/2007 3:09:30 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Well given the size of Magpul what do you think?

Masada 2008

PDR 2009

Or do you guys think that the PDR is being developed along side the Masada and will come out shortly after the Masada?

Be cool if they had some videos or pictures of the actual weapon and not just the mock-up.

Maybe they haven't really dedicated themselves to going through with this and like so many concept cars will just be something that stays on the drawing board.

I'd love to know also, they've kept really quiet about the PDR. Maybe the Masada is taking the forefront over everything else.

Posted: 6/10/2007 3:34:30 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well given the size of Magpul what do you think?

Masada 2008

PDR 2009

Or do you guys think that the PDR is being developed along side the Masada and will come out shortly after the Masada?

Be cool if they had some videos or pictures of the actual weapon and not just the mock-up.

Maybe they haven't really dedicated themselves to going through with this and like so many concept cars will just be something that stays on the drawing board.

I'd love to know also, they've kept really quiet about the PDR. Maybe the Masada is taking the forefront over everything else.

You know what..................It might, if they dont over-price them SOB's...........

Posted: 6/11/2007 12:04:59 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well given the size of Magpul what do you think?

Masada 2008

PDR 2009

Or do you guys think that the PDR is being developed along side the Masada and will come out shortly after the Masada?

Be cool if they had some videos or pictures of the actual weapon and not just the mock-up.

Maybe they haven't really dedicated themselves to going through with this and like so many concept cars will just be something that stays on the drawing board.

I'd love to know also, they've kept really quiet about the PDR. Maybe the Masada is taking the forefront over everything else.

You know what..................It might, if they dont over-price them SOB's...........

Yeah, they say $1,400.00 for their Masada, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Posted: 6/12/2007 5:51:43 PM EDT

[#19]

I like that there will be a kevlar ejection port shield and a bolt release in the trigger well...both key features for a bullpup.

Posted: 6/26/2007 12:04:16 PM EDT

[#20]

Are there any updates about this firearm anyone can share?

Is the firearm currently under development or has it yet to move from the initial concept phase?

Any information would be great.

I've been thinking about all the problems they'll have to overcome with this rifle and am hoping that they will be able to overcome them.

Posted: 6/26/2007 3:44:06 PM EDT

[#21]

My salute to Magpul.........Nice to see an American company using some creativity. I would like to see one in .30 caliber carbine or .45 ACP.

Posted: 6/27/2007 2:03:56 PM EDT

[#22]

If they sell it I will buy it, I really dig the P90 style foregrip. The polygonal rifling especially has my interested piqued.

Posted: 6/27/2007 3:33:21 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
If they sell it I will buy it, I really dig the P90 style foregrip. The polygonal rifling especially has my interested piqued.

That polygonal rifling is so KEY. I'm excited to see if it will give them what other short barrel ARs have been lacking.

They area also going need someway to reduce the recoil and muzzle flash.

Posted: 8/26/2007 4:46:04 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
one more
www.defensereview.com/stories/magpul/Magpul%20PDR_10.jpg

I would want one built on this stock.
Anyone have any more information on this?

Posted: 8/27/2007 8:36:09 AM EDT

[#25]

Seems to me that ejection port is wayy too forward of the magwell. That can't be accurate.

Posted: 8/28/2007 2:57:09 AM EDT

[#26]

That's what I thought, but maybe there's a chute/channel that the brass travels forward to the port?

Posted: 8/30/2007 11:15:51 AM EDT

[#27]

5.56 muzzle blast that close your face....hmm

Posted: 8/30/2007 4:40:36 PM EDT

[#28]

I noticed another thing, the Magazine seems really far back on the stock. Where does the bolt have room to cycle?

Posted: 8/31/2007 8:12:48 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
I noticed another thing, the Magazine seems really far back on the stock. Where does the bolt have room to cycle?

Looks like enough room to me, just the recoil mechanism is probably on top or surrounding the barrel.

Posted: 9/24/2007 6:09:17 PM EDT

[#30]

bump for more info

Posted: 9/24/2007 7:18:35 PM EDT

[#31]

What has Magpul tossed the PDR in the back of their closet and forgot about it or what?

I've heard zero on the PDR progress. Is it going to take a back seat to the Masada for now? I think that would be a mistake they've got a personal defense rifle with promise if they play with it to cut back recoil, muzzle flash, and increase velocity.

I'm thinking something like the KRISS recoil mitigation system with the polygonal barrel would do the trick...the end product might look a little different, but would be an wesome little PDW throwing out 5.56.

If the PDR works like it should I would make it my "go-to" home-defense rifle.

Posted: 9/24/2007 7:41:59 PM EDT

[#32]

Just from it's size, it's going to be a compromise rifle just to get it to fire controllably on Semi, let alone to make it behave on AUTO.

That said, toss an Aimpoint Micro on there, and let the giggity begin, especially if they can figure out how to make it interchangeably ambi.

Posted: 9/24/2007 9:14:17 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
What has Magpul tossed the PDR in the back of their closet and forgot about it or what?

I've heard zero on the PDR progress. Is it going to take a back seat to the Masada for now? I think that would be a mistake they've got a personal defense rifle with promise if they play with it to cut back recoil, muzzle flash, and increase velocity.

I'm thinking something like the KRISS recoil mitigation system with the polygonal barrel would do the trick...the end product might look a little different, but would be an wesome little PDW throwing out 5.56.

If the PDR works like it should I would make it my "go-to" home-defense rifle.

We are really keeping things on the down low as of late. It seems that talking about what we're working on gets us in trouble with the guys that have nothing better to do than stare at their computer all day. Things are moving along.

Posted: 9/25/2007 6:16:15 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What has Magpul tossed the PDR in the back of their closet and forgot about it or what?

I've heard zero on the PDR progress. Is it going to take a back seat to the Masada for now? I think that would be a mistake they've got a personal defense rifle with promise if they play with it to cut back recoil, muzzle flash, and increase velocity.

I'm thinking something like the KRISS recoil mitigation system with the polygonal barrel would do the trick...the end product might look a little different, but would be an wesome little PDW throwing out 5.56.

If the PDR works like it should I would make it my "go-to" home-defense rifle.

We are really keeping things on the down low as of late. It seems that talking about what we're working on gets us in trouble with the guys that have nothing better to do than stare at their computer all day. Things are moving along.

Don't like it but don't blame ya.

Posted: 9/25/2007 10:53:51 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What has Magpul tossed the PDR in the back of their closet and forgot about it or what?

I've heard zero on the PDR progress. Is it going to take a back seat to the Masada for now? I think that would be a mistake they've got a personal defense rifle with promise if they play with it to cut back recoil, muzzle flash, and increase velocity.

I'm thinking something like the KRISS recoil mitigation system with the polygonal barrel would do the trick...the end product might look a little different, but would be an wesome little PDW throwing out 5.56.

If the PDR works like it should I would make it my "go-to" home-defense rifle.

We are really keeping things on the down low as of late. It seems that talking about what we're working on gets us in trouble with the guys that have nothing better to do than stare at their computer all day. Things are moving along.

Cool, thats all I wanted to know that there was progress and it wasn't one of those rifle concepts that vanishes into thin air.

Posted: 9/25/2007 4:02:35 PM EDT

[#36]

We are really keeping things on the down low as of late. It seems that talking about what we're working on gets us in trouble with the guys that have nothing better to do than stare at their computer all day. Things are moving along.

How did you know that I stare a....... UH OK Nevermind

Posted: 9/26/2007 12:10:01 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Cool, thats all I wanted to know that there was progress and it wasn't one of those rifle concepts that vanishes into thin air.

+1

Posted: 11/30/2007 9:48:33 AM EDT

[#38]

bump

Posted: 11/30/2007 2:05:13 PM EDT

[#39]

PDR.

How about a picture? An update? A promise that we'll get a look at it at SHOT 08'?

I am very excited about this beauty. As a bullpup guy it will be a "must have."

Posted: 11/30/2007 2:36:35 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
PDR.

How about a picture? An update? A promise that we'll get a look at it at SHOT 08'?

I am very excited about this beauty. As a bullpup guy it will be a "must have."

No updates for you guys. We're working away here as always. We learned this year that making promises on ARFcom is like not clearing a Glock before taking it down. It goes bang on you everytime. When we have info we'll post it up. Thanks for the patience.

Posted: 11/30/2007 2:39:48 PM EDT

[#41]

Solution in search of a problem.

It may get LE buys and civilian BRD buys, but no Military is going to buy this; why?

When SHTF the military expects every troop to at least be a semi-trained rifleman, and as such they need a proper rifle (or carbine).

EVERY PDW concept to date that approachs SMG levels of performance has failed. And a extremely SBR 556 is no different.

HK PDW (MP5K) - no big adoptors for second line troops

P90 - fail

MP7 - fail

Various full auto pistols have also failed to be adopted as PDW's

Cool weapon, but a military will never go to issuing both rifles, carbines and PDW's.

Posted: 11/30/2007 2:43:25 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
Solution in search of a problem.

It may get LE buys and civilian BRD buys, but no Military is going to buy this; why?

When SHTF the military expects every troop to at least be a semi-trained rifleman, and as such they need a proper rifle (or carbine).

EVERY PDW concept to date that approachs SMG levels of performance has failed. And a extremely SBR 556 is no different.

HK PDW (MP5K) - no big adoptors for second line troops

P90 - fail

MP7 - fail

Various full auto pistols have also failed to be adopted as PDW's

Cool weapon, but a military will never go to issuing both rifles, carbines and PDW's.

They "Army," are asking for preliminary informational submissions now....

Posted: 11/30/2007 3:26:25 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Solution in search of a problem.

It may get LE buys and civilian BRD buys, but no Military is going to buy this; why?

When SHTF the military expects every troop to at least be a semi-trained rifleman, and as such they need a proper rifle (or carbine).

EVERY PDW concept to date that approachs SMG levels of performance has failed. And a extremely SBR 556 is no different.

HK PDW (MP5K) - no big adoptors for second line troops

P90 - fail

MP7 - fail

Various full auto pistols have also failed to be adopted as PDW's

Cool weapon, but a military will never go to issuing both rifles, carbines and PDW's.

They "Army," are asking for preliminary informational submissions now....

USMC also bought the Mp7 for trials and dumped it.

Army asks for a lot of things and buys very little.

This the same Army that asked for Commanche and Crusader?

There may be a small buy for SOCOM, but thats about it.

Big Green and DoD overall are giant burocracies and no PDW will ever be fielded. My prediction.

Posted: 11/30/2007 7:26:58 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Solution in search of a problem.

It may get LE buys and civilian BRD buys, but no Military is going to buy this; why?

When SHTF the military expects every troop to at least be a semi-trained rifleman, and as such they need a proper rifle (or carbine).

EVERY PDW concept to date that approachs SMG levels of performance has failed. And a extremely SBR 556 is no different.

HK PDW (MP5K) - no big adoptors for second line troops

P90 - fail

MP7 - fail

Various full auto pistols have also failed to be adopted as PDW's

Cool weapon, but a military will never go to issuing both rifles, carbines and PDW's.

They "Army," are asking for preliminary informational submissions now....

USMC also bought the Mp7 for trials and dumped it.

Army asks for a lot of things and buys very little.

This the same Army that asked for Commanche and Crusader?

There may be a small buy for SOCOM, but thats about it.

Big Green and DoD overall are giant burocracies and no PDW will ever be fielded. My prediction.

I think you're overlooking the fact that the MP7 and P90 require a larger logistical footprint than the PDR would.

The PDR uses the standard 5.56x45mm round already in use by the main battle rifle and the M249 SAW. The PDR also uses AR magazines so the military would have less stuff to buy and less stuff to carry.

With China and Russia starting to issue body armor the pistol caliber is going to go buh bye. I could see the PDR having contracts for helicopter crews looking to carry more than their M9, but without the room for an M4 or SCAR.

Posted: 11/30/2007 7:30:05 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Solution in search of a problem.

It may get LE buys and civilian BRD buys, but no Military is going to buy this; why?

When SHTF the military expects every troop to at least be a semi-trained rifleman, and as such they need a proper rifle (or carbine).

EVERY PDW concept to date that approachs SMG levels of performance has failed. And a extremely SBR 556 is no different.

HK PDW (MP5K) - no big adoptors for second line troops

P90 - fail

MP7 - fail

Various full auto pistols have also failed to be adopted as PDW's

Cool weapon, but a military will never go to issuing both rifles, carbines and PDW's.

The problem: There aren't any good choices for a weapon that is as maneuverable as an MP5 but can deliver rifle round ballistics.

The solution: PDR

No searching needed. Just because .mil won't buy it doesn't mean it doesn't serve a purpose

Posted: 11/30/2007 8:59:15 PM EDT

[#46]

How about some small hints?

Quoted:

Quoted:
PDR.

How about a picture? An update? A promise that we'll get a look at it at SHOT 08'?

I am very excited about this beauty. As a bullpup guy it will be a "must have."

No updates for you guys. We're working away here as always. We learned this year that making promises on ARFcom is like not clearing a Glock before taking it down. It goes bang on you everytime. When we have info we'll post it up. Thanks for the patience.

Posted: 12/1/2007 4:14:03 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
PDR.

How about a picture? An update? A promise that we'll get a look at it at SHOT 08'?

I am very excited about this beauty. As a bullpup guy it will be a "must have."

No updates for you guys. We're working away here as always. We learned this year that making promises on ARFcom is like not clearing a Glock before taking it down. It goes bang on you everytime. When we have info we'll post it up. Thanks for the patience.

No, this time will be different! We promise. Give us just one more chance...

Posted: 12/1/2007 11:37:19 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Solution in search of a problem.

It may get LE buys and civilian BRD buys, but no Military is going to buy this; why?

EVERY PDW concept to date that approachs SMG levels of performance has failed. And a extremely SBR 556 is no different.
.

Brits who don't need SA80's carry HK53s (8 inch barrel). There's a lot of them in service with them.

Posted: 12/1/2007 7:10:19 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Solution in search of a problem.

It may get LE buys and civilian BRD buys, but no Military is going to buy this; why?

When SHTF the military expects every troop to at least be a semi-trained rifleman, and as such they need a proper rifle (or carbine).

EVERY PDW concept to date that approachs SMG levels of performance has failed. And a extremely SBR 556 is no different.

HK PDW (MP5K) - no big adoptors for second line troops

P90 - fail

MP7 - fail

Various full auto pistols have also failed to be adopted as PDW's

Cool weapon, but a military will never go to issuing both rifles, carbines and PDW's.

12.5 inch barrel is hardly "extremely SBR."

I'm not saying the mil will buy it, but this PDW has interested me much more than any other new firearm I've seen.

Posted: 12/2/2007 12:10:37 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Solution in search of a problem.

It may get LE buys and civilian BRD buys, but no Military is going to buy this; why?

When SHTF the military expects every troop to at least be a semi-trained rifleman, and as such they need a proper rifle (or carbine).

EVERY PDW concept to date that approachs SMG levels of performance has failed. And a extremely SBR 556 is no different.

HK PDW (MP5K) - no big adoptors for second line troops

P90 - fail

MP7 - fail

Various full auto pistols have also failed to be adopted as PDW's

Cool weapon, but a military will never go to issuing both rifles, carbines and PDW's.

12.5 inch barrel is hardly "extremely SBR."

I'm not saying the mil will buy it, but this PDW has interested me much more than any other new firearm I've seen.

I am going to have to agree on that. I fthis makes it to market I will pony up for the tax stamp to get a PDR as an SBR. I think it would be the perfect nightstand companion.

96Ag

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Magpul PDR (Page 2 of 3)

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