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Posted: 7/10/2019 1:57:50 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Too bad the CMT AR-Mini is still vaporware. I never heard whether it was delayed blowback or any other details really. http://zero7one.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/TriggrCon-2017-Cross-Machine-Tool-004-1000.jpg I'm also curious if the Strike MP5 uppers are dead... https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/P1010086-660x495.jpg http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/img_8527.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Couldn't have said it any better myself. No AR9 platforms of ANY design are going to make me want to give up my HK's and my B&T's. I never heard whether it was delayed blowback or any other details really. http://zero7one.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/TriggrCon-2017-Cross-Machine-Tool-004-1000.jpg I'm also curious if the Strike MP5 uppers are dead... https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/P1010086-660x495.jpg http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/img_8527.jpg |
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Posted: 7/10/2019 3:12:23 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Too bad the CMT AR-Mini is still vaporware. I never heard whether it was delayed blowback or any other details really. http://zero7one.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/TriggrCon-2017-Cross-Machine-Tool-004-1000.jpg I'm also curious if the Strike MP5 uppers are dead... https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/P1010086-660x495.jpg http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/img_8527.jpg Er, I mean, I’m interested in hearing more about these potential new entrants to the PCC market. |
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Posted: 7/10/2019 6:57:47 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I plan to do just that at some point, and compare it to my bufferless DI 45 setup.  Attached FileThe angle on the lugs will be critical due to the reduced carrier mass, may look at using a .40 bolt with 9mm, as Amphibian is doing with his super-short barrel suppressed RDB upper. |
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Posted: 7/10/2019 7:31:51 PM EDT
[#4]
Is it weird that no company will make a sub gun to compete with the MP5?
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Posted: 7/11/2019 12:49:14 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is it weird that no company will make a sub gun to compete with the MP5? Regardless of what you think of each, they are competitors in that space without in any way being just 'clones' of the MP5. Maybe more clearly define what you mean by 'compete with'? What criteria must a weapon meet to be an MP5 competitor, besides "sub gun" (pistol cartridge automatic)? |
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Posted: 7/11/2019 4:52:36 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You mean besides the MPX, GHM9, APC, Uzi Pro, CZ Micro, etc? The MPX is about as soft/smooth as an MP5 but suppression with a muzzle can sucks. As I already posted on page 2 of this thread, I gave the MPX a chance and bought one that is using a post sample DIAS and clocked it at 1141 RPM. Also got the ILWT 4 position adjustable gas regulator in attempts to tune it and the ILWT 3 lug barrel. If NOT shooting suppressed or full auto, I would go with it over the MP5 due to better ergonomics.... However, since I do have suppressors, I would take the MP5 over an MPX. (Before the CMMG RDB came out). I also had a full auto Micro UZI that I sold. Still have full auto full size and Mini UZI's. I prefer the UZI in open bolt to take advantage of API to soak up the initial recoil impulse. None of the options you listed have the ability to lock the bolt back on the right side like you can do on the AR platform w/ various ambi options. None of the options give you the modularity and flexibility to tune the buffering/spring action like you can with the AR. Which again, you see as being a negative and I see as a huge positive. Every option you listed will clock in at about 900 to over a 1000 RPM in full auto and there isn't shit you can do about it since those recoil systems are 'fixed'. As mentioned before, I don't like the CMMG RDB with its standard spring and buffer recommendation from CMMG. I think it was in the 800's and while smoother than any straight blowback AR still not in MP5 territory. Simple buffer tube, spring and move to a hydraulic buffer and now in MP5 territory and running in the 600's while still being smooth. That is unheard of. I cannot think of any closed bolt SMG in existence that can run that slow AND still be smooth. Even for those not interested in full auto, this softness/smoothness is noticeable in semi over all the other options. All that with ergonomics that surpass every option you listed and being delayed blowback, has superior suppression to every option you listed as well. |
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Posted: 7/11/2019 7:46:57 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where/what do I click to find out more? I want to know more about that magnificent firearm... Build Thread 2 |
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Posted: 7/11/2019 2:46:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Where/what do I click to find out more? I want to know more about that magnificent firearm... Build Thread 2 |
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Posted: 7/11/2019 2:54:55 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice. Shame more dont try to create forward mounted recoil systems, save Faxon's ARAK and Brownell's BRN-180. RRA PDS |
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Posted: 7/11/2019 3:05:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As an owner of most systems I have to disagree with you. MPX- Belongs in the trash with AK’s Scorpion- Every hipster should own one MP5- Because Die Hard B&T- APc9 Pro is God’s gift to the PCC market. Go be poor somewhere else peasant Vector- Legit fun like scooters and fat girls CMMG- meh it’s just another way to skin that cat |
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Posted: 7/11/2019 4:52:34 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You mean besides the MPX, GHM9, APC, Uzi Pro, CZ Micro, etc? Regardless of what you think of each, they are competitors in that space without in any way being just 'clones' of the MP5. Maybe more clearly define what you mean by 'compete with'? What criteria must a weapon meet to be an MP5 competitor, besides "sub gun" (pistol cartridge automatic)? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Is it weird that no company will make a sub gun to compete with the MP5? Regardless of what you think of each, they are competitors in that space without in any way being just 'clones' of the MP5. Maybe more clearly define what you mean by 'compete with'? What criteria must a weapon meet to be an MP5 competitor, besides "sub gun" (pistol cartridge automatic)? 
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Posted: 7/11/2019 4:54:13 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
SIG MPX/MCX RRA PDS Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nice. Shame more dont try to create forward mounted recoil systems, save Faxon's ARAK and Brownell's BRN-180. RRA PDS If you mean "forward" of the chamber, you're talking simple blowback or long stroke piston as the only options, really. |
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Posted: 7/11/2019 5:07:58 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also the MP5, and also nearly every gun made besides the AR10/15 and FAL... If you mean "forward" of the chamber, you're talking simple blowback or long stroke piston as the only options, really. 
Dual AR180 action springs above the barrel, with a spring latch in the charging handle to engage the extended, slotted gas key. DI gas block and gas tube rides in the slot on the bottom of the key. 
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Posted: 7/11/2019 5:12:21 PM EDT
[#14]
Did the big mean 9mm hurt your wittle shoulder?
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Posted: 7/11/2019 5:19:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Stupid thread that doesn't realize cost and convenience is are serious advantages to 90% of the people in the world.
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Posted: 7/11/2019 5:24:14 PM EDT
[#16]
...................
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Posted: 7/11/2019 5:28:30 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stupid thread that doesn't realize cost and convenience is are serious advantages to 90% of the people in the world. Keep paying $2000+ for straight blowback nonsense, and they’re going to be happy to provide that to you. The argument that “but the right thing costs more :(“ goes entirely out the window when MP5 clones cost less than a lot of 9mm straight blowback ARs. |
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Posted: 7/11/2019 6:48:26 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Demand better, and you'll get better. Keep paying $2000+ for straight blowback nonsense, and they're going to be happy to provide that to you. The argument that "but the right thing costs more :(" goes entirely out the window when MP5 clones cost less than a lot of 9mm straight blowback ARs. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Stupid thread that doesn't realize cost and convenience is are serious advantages to 90% of the people in the world. Keep paying $2000+ for straight blowback nonsense, and they're going to be happy to provide that to you. The argument that "but the right thing costs more :(" goes entirely out the window when MP5 clones cost less than a lot of 9mm straight blowback ARs. I've shot everything from High Points to MP5s to really nice 9mm blow back ARs As with most things, give me a reliable gun and more ammo to practice any day. |
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Posted: 7/11/2019 7:24:13 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Uzi Pro does not compete with the MP5 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is it weird that no company will make a sub gun to compete with the MP5? Regardless of what you think of each, they are competitors in that space without in any way being just 'clones' of the MP5. Maybe more clearly define what you mean by 'compete with'? What criteria must a weapon meet to be an MP5 competitor, besides "sub gun" (pistol cartridge automatic)? Be specific as to WHAT criteria is needed to "compete" and then perhaps we can have a discussion without any
But to just throw up a judgement statement with NO list of what criteria was used to specifically judge is meaningless. Finally, my list of competitors wasn't meant to imply they are all equally good at every single aspect of weapon usage and function. In every segment, competitors are NOT all equal in every aspect, but each has their pros and cons. Doesn't mean they don't exist in the same segment. If it did, each and every gun would be its own segment, with no competitors. Its like saying "A Ford F350 dually is the best vehicle evar!". Best for everyone, regardless? Best for WHO? Best at WHAT jobs specifically? Best for towing a 40 foot trailer? Perhaps. Best at heavy traffic commuting? Best at family hauling to a vacation spot 2,000 miles away? Best for someone who has an average new car budget ($30,000)? |
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Posted: 7/11/2019 8:41:46 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Demand better, and you’ll get better. Keep paying $2000+ for straight blowback nonsense, and they’re going to be happy to provide that to you. The argument that “but the right thing costs more :(“ goes entirely out the window when MP5 clones cost less than a lot of 9mm straight blowback ARs. The hard fact is that the individual US Consumer doesn't have the power to demand anything from a major manufacturer. Perhaps if you were to organize a very sizeable list of purchasers to sign a petition, where they *all* agreed on a small set of capabilities, THEN you might get the manufacturer's attention. But I'd say "GOOD LUCK" with that. Look at the wide variety of opinions just in this thread alone, as to what features are a "must have", what are "deal breakers", and what price points are viable for those features. It is very difficult for Gun Manufacturers to mass produce a weapon with a large set of functional variations and still make a profit. Apart from that, the choices are: "Buy the closest thing to what you want from what is available" or "Don't buy anything, to show the Gun companies that you aren't happy". Which will YOU do? As for me, I won't sit out these last years of the Golden Age of Gun Ownership here in the USA, pouting and NOT getting ANYTHING, because my "perfect" PCC/PDW/subgun is NOT currently being produced, in a futile attempt to "send a message". |
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Posted: 7/11/2019 9:20:29 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My PCC cost $350 NIB and fills every requirement I have for it. I've shot everything from High Points to MP5s to really nice 9mm blow back ARs As with most things, give me a reliable gun and more ammo to practice any day. And someday when you really understand the difference between straight and delayed blowback, you’ll understand what this thread is about. |
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Posted: 7/11/2019 9:24:59 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's not how it works. You just aren’t seeing it yet. We’re leaving a PCC winter and going into a golden age of guns that have a little bit of thought into them. |
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Posted: 7/11/2019 10:05:41 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great! That's awesome you like your gun. And someday when you really understand the difference between straight and delayed blowback, you'll understand what this thread is about. The title of your thread, that they are "100% unacceptable" is farcical. They do their job quite well. The market reflects that. Had your contention been that delayed blowback guns shoot smoother, I would have agreed with you. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 12:35:11 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You know how I know you are wrong? This section of this forum right now has people mostly in agreement that straight blowback guns suck compared to delayed options. This is the largest group of people on the internet in a SEO friendly site interested in this topic. You just aren’t seeing it yet. We’re leaving a PCC winter and going into a golden age of guns that have a little bit of thought into them. What you aren't seeing (or willing to admit) is that *price* is a critical component of any consumer product's viability. Does straight blowback still suck if it is $700 vs. $1700 for a delayed? Are you saying there is consensus on that? CZ and other straight blowback designs' sales superiority over more expensive delayed blowback models would strongly indicate that that statement is false. The only consensus I might see is that *if* money is no object, delayed blowback is better that straight blowback. But of course, that is NOT the assertion of this thread's OP, which was "Straight Blowback is 100% unacceptable", with the direct implication that that means "at any cost or price premium". |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:52:10 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nope. I don't see any such consensus. Once again, judgement without stated criteria is worthless. What you aren't seeing (or willing to admit) is that *price* is a critical component of any consumer product's viability. Does straight blowback still suck if it is $700 vs. $1700 for a delayed? Are you saying there is consensus on that? CZ and other straight blowback designs' sales superiority over more expensive delayed blowback models would strongly indicate that that statement is false. The only consensus I might see is that *if* money is no object, delayed blowback is better that straight blowback. But of course, that is NOT the assertion of this thread's OP, which was "Straight Blowback is 100% unacceptable", with the direct implication that that means "at any cost or price premium". |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 8:48:20 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Demand better, and you’ll get better. Keep paying $2000+ for straight blowback nonsense, and they’re going to be happy to provide that to you. The argument that “but the right thing costs more :(“ goes entirely out the window when MP5 clones cost less than a lot of 9mm straight blowback ARs. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but half the newer straight blowback guns have eclipsed the MP5. Aside from a “buttery smooth” recoil (it’s a fucking 9mm btw) it’s an ancient turd loved by gamer nerds and teh gays. Ergonomics require thumbs similar in length to a carrot to reach the safety. No LRBHO. No OEM method of mounting a weapon light. No OEM method of mounting optics. Don’t forget to order new rollers so you can actually make the MP5 run right suppressed, as well. Everything people hate about the G3/HK91 is everything people love about the MP5.... only we get to watch you pay upwards of 1.5k just to own a shitty clone from Pakistan or Turkey. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 8:57:58 AM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 7/12/2019 9:00:36 AM EDT
[#28]
I agree with you, up to the point where you say "single feed sucks."
I don't disagree that if your pistol isn't a glock of the same caliber, it sucks. But my sidearm is a 9mm Glock and the whole reason I want a 9mm AR that takes glock mags is because I already have a stockpile of 33rd mags. Which makes the gun cheaper for me to outfit (I don't have to spend another $300 on mags), and requires me to outfit my gear to deal with a mag I never had before. Not to mention as a truck gun, it makes a lot of sense because the mags for the pistol I already have work in the AR. But yeah, I'm looking really hard at the guard uppers because of how they did the operating system. I do not like their solution to mags though. Makes sense in one light, but it would make more sense if they offered them with the popular pistol mag lowers too (colt, glock, skorpion, etc). Yeah, a little more cost in that but for people like me who want something more than a range toy and want it to work with equipment we already own.....it's a suboptimal solution. Not to mention I don't want to carry a big ass AR mag when it could be a lot smaller. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 10:27:35 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even after the tax stamp my scorpion didn’t cost $1k, much less 2k. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but half the newer straight blowback guns have eclipsed the MP5. Aside from a “buttery smooth” recoil (it’s a fucking 9mm btw) it’s an ancient turd loved by gamer nerds and teh gays. Ergonomics require thumbs similar in length to a carrot to reach the safety. No LRBHO. No OEM method of mounting a weapon light. No OEM method of mounting optics. Don’t forget to order new rollers so you can actually make the MP5 run right suppressed, as well. Everything people hate about the G3/HK91 is everything people love about the MP5.... only we get to watch you pay upwards of 1.5k just to own a shitty clone from Pakistan or Turkey. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 11:09:31 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep....and my 9mm AR pistol recoils more than my .223 AR pistol........not a big deal, but it kind of sucks if you are expecting it to feel like a 9mm......which it doesn't. The whole reason I built a 9mm pistol was to be able to shoot it faster, with less recoil, and less noise. For the most part, none of that happened....maybe a little less noise. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 12:09:07 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote History"Requires enlarged ejection port for reliable operation."
What is the story there? |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 12:15:20 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Requires enlarged ejection port for reliable operation." What is the story there? 9mm has been known to run fine without it, but any pistol caliber specific upper receiver will likely already have an enlarged ejection port. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 12:46:01 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Requires enlarged ejection port for reliable operation." What is the story there? Quote HistoryQuoted:
What is the story there? |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 1:39:49 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote History ....poor person sigh......
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Posted: 7/12/2019 2:32:09 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
*cough* HK UMP *cough* You know, I've heard that gun was supposed to be roller delayed --a polymer, modular MP5-- but...well, costs were cut. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't care about your feelings. If you think straight blow back is acceptable because you spent a lot of money on yours (Hey B&T guys!) that's cool, this thread probably isn't for you (yet). 10 years ago I built an MP5 from parts kit. One of the first LSC flats. German parts, had Ralph at RDTS did the work, it's as MP5 as you can get. ... It ruined me on all future 9mm carbines I'd own. But it kinda sucks still. That gun has horrible controls minus the HK Slap. It's got an ancient mag well, no bolt hold open, and reloads are slow. All parts are stupid expensive, and a certain questionable retailer has a hold on the market. It's meant to be a team gun where it's ok reloads are slow because you have 5 other guys with you. I love it, I'll keep it, but it's a dead platform. I could list other gun I've owned, sold, evaluated. I started to on the second post in this thread. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/APC9-pro-or-D54R-N/48-499287/ but I'm not interested in sharing my stories of why this or that gun might look real cool in pictures but kind sucks in hand. Instead, I thought to propose the statement I fully believe might be better. Straight blowback sucks. I know, to some this isn't earth shattering and you already know. And to others it's a mortal sin of me telling you the way you spent your money is bad and you were wrong. If you take it offense, just ignore it.
Side note #1... Smaller isn't better. I know it's cool af to have a 3" barrel gun with collapsible stock. Buyer beware. Side note #2... "If you can't handle the recoil of a 9mm, you're a wuss" is a bad statement. A 9mm carbine shouldn't have more recoil than a 556 carbine, but almost all do. I'm not anti any brand, I'm just saying after years of experience I know straight blowback is never for me because they just aren't as good delayed options. So, for me-in-the-past... Get a delayed blowback un in as close to an AR platform as you can get. TLDR; You don't know straight blowback sucks - until you do. Someone finally gets it. Been saying this for years. Blowback is lazy engineering and cheap ass manufacturing, and too many gun owners are too dumb to know they are buying into stupid. You know, I've heard that gun was supposed to be roller delayed --a polymer, modular MP5-- but...well, costs were cut. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 4:58:55 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But yeah, I'm looking really hard at the guard uppers because of how they did the operating system. I do not like their solution to mags though. Makes sense in one light, but it would make more sense if they offered them with the popular pistol mag lowers too (colt, glock, skorpion, etc). Yeah, a little more cost in that but for people like me who want something more than a range toy and want it to work with equipment we already own.....it's a suboptimal solution. Not to mention I don't want to carry a big ass AR mag when it could be a lot smaller. 2. How many mags do you plan on carrying? Again, they are tapered internally so you really aren’t “saving” a ton of room compared to MP5 mags which I think are longer than a PMAG 30, but maybe not, IDK. Point is, I carry three on belt in HSGI Tacos, and it’s perfect. Again though, from my point of view this is my competition gun and I’m using the same skills and manipulations for 9mm as 556 now. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 5:01:16 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but half the newer straight blowback guns have eclipsed the MP5. Aside from a “buttery smooth” recoil (it’s a fucking 9mm btw) it’s an ancient turd loved by gamer nerds and teh gays. Second, I’m not going to mock or argue. You CLEARLY don’t know the difference between straight and delayed blowback. Other people here do, and when me/they read that straight blowback outclasses the gold standard for delayed, well... :) OK |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 5:04:08 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But yeah, I'm looking really hard at the guard uppers because of how they did the operating system. I do not like their solution to mags though. Makes sense in one light, but it would make more sense if they offered them with the popular pistol mag lowers too (colt, glock, skorpion, etc). |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 5:10:13 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How many mags do you plan on carrying? Again, they are tapered internally so you really aren’t “saving” a ton of room compared to MP5 mags which I think are longer than a PMAG 30, but maybe not, IDK Not that it matters a whole lot, I just happen to be messing with stuff at the moment. :) |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:16:05 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: First off, leave your second part nonsense out of it. Second, I'm not going to mock or argue. You CLEARLY don't know the difference between straight and delayed blowback. Other people here do, and when me/they read that straight blowback outclasses the gold standard for delayed, well... :) OK So basically you offer no defense. Edited...VA-gunnut |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:21:32 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep....and my 9mm AR pistol recoils more than my .223 AR pistol........not a big deal, but it kind of sucks if you are expecting it to feel like a 9mm......which it doesn't. The whole reason I built a 9mm pistol was to be able to shoot it faster, with less recoil, and less noise. For the most part, none of that happened....maybe a little less noise. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Even after the tax stamp my scorpion didn’t cost $1k, much less 2k. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but half the newer straight blowback guns have eclipsed the MP5. Aside from a “buttery smooth” recoil (it’s a fucking 9mm btw) it’s an ancient turd loved by gamer nerds and teh gays. Ergonomics require thumbs similar in length to a carrot to reach the safety. No LRBHO. No OEM method of mounting a weapon light. No OEM method of mounting optics. Don’t forget to order new rollers so you can actually make the MP5 run right suppressed, as well. Everything people hate about the G3/HK91 is everything people love about the MP5.... only we get to watch you pay upwards of 1.5k just to own a shitty clone from Pakistan or Turkey. My Scorpion does have more recoil than an MP5, suppressed it calms down quite a bit. It also can take lights, a VFG and optics right out of the box.... at a fraction of the cost. I can easily afford an MP5 clone.... but won’t. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 8:45:58 PM EDT
[#42]
I carried an MP5 for a few years at work, shot maybe 5k rounds between an A3 and SD model. Yes, it was smooth and recoiled less than my recently acquired Scorpion, but the CZ is far from an "unacceptable" firearm.
This thread is akin to "The Honda Civic is unacceptable...here's why the Lexus LS500 is better". |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 10:41:53 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread is akin to "The Honda Civic is unacceptable...here's why the Lexus LS500 is better". |
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Posted: 7/13/2019 9:44:08 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Demand better, and you’ll get better. Keep paying $2000+ for straight blowback nonsense, and they’re going to be happy to provide that to you. The argument that “but the right thing costs more :(“ goes entirely out the window when MP5 clones cost less than a lot of 9mm straight blowback ARs. I can definitely tell a difference between my MPX-K and my CZ Micro when shot side by side. With the Timney trigger my MPX is much faster on drills. Even more ironically the buffer spring system in my GHM9 makes shooting (even with the heavy trigger) very smooth and my most accurate 9mm "pistol"; the only thing I hate is the weight required for the heavy blowback bolt systems (although the MP5 systems are also pretty heavy in comparison). I think for most of us non-NFA mortals, the proliferation of braced "pistols" and the ease of going the NFA route is attracting more attention than before. Hopefully that attention creates innovation and not apathy towards consumers. I think we are in the best position to demand that type of innovation more than ever... I love the MPX design and controls; the MP5's delayed roller lock needs to be simplified (for cheaper manufacture) or a new type of delayed system, suppression should almost be a standard design feature/expectation, bolt mass and operation weight doesn't need to weigh five pounds for an MPX, MP5 or similar-sized 9mm SBR/pistol. MPX-like control features, sub-5 pound design, smooth shooting delayed blowback that is designed for suppression...that's what I want. ROCK6 |
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Posted: 7/13/2019 10:02:18 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great! That’s awesome you like your gun. And someday when you really understand the difference between straight and delayed blowback, you’ll understand what this thread is about. one could say (semiauto) - delayed blowback has less recoil - so does a 22lr 22lr is not a good defensive round - 300blk is better than 9mm, use that the mp5 is superior to the modern straight blowback guns - crappy trigger, ergos, time it takes to change mags on mp5 outweighs the benefits of delayed blowback vs modern blowback guns for defensive uses - why use 9mm for defense when you have 300blk? having shot the mp5 and mp5k clones, several straight blowbacks and finally the cmmg 9mm RDB id say the smoothness of delayed blowback and the moving weight savings is not a top priority, especially in a defensive gun. thats just my dumb opinion i guess. that being said, if i only had one 9mm PCC id prob keep the cmmg. the negatives (ergos of bolt catch and rear charging handle) might not outweigh the benefits of delayed blowback and trigger options in MY hands. |
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Posted: 7/13/2019 10:57:27 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love the MPX design and controls; the MP5's delayed roller lock needs to be simplified (for cheaper manufacture) or a new type of delayed system, suppression should almost be a standard design feature/expectation, bolt mass and operation weight doesn't need to weigh five pounds for an MPX, MP5 or similar-sized 9mm SBR/pistol. MPX-like control features, sub-5 pound design, smooth shooting delayed blowback that is designed for suppression...that's what I want. ROCK6 I haven't weighed mine but it is noticeably lighter than my MP5. Superior ergonomics to the MPX because you can select from the plethora of ambi options out there for all the 556 lowers out there. I'm using the PDQ so I can lock the BHO and release it on the right side. Which you can't do with the MPX. As posted on page 2 of this thread, CMMG has stated that there is large operating window on the Guard bolt angle design so just by changing the angles, you can change the delay. I've already proven that by just swapping the Guard 9mm bolt for a Guard 40SW bolt which has less aggressive angles that it delays the unlocking so that it is optimized for suppression for 9mm. That is way better than all these other methods of just throwing mass at the problem. |
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Posted: 7/13/2019 11:03:43 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
that being said, if i only had one 9mm PCC id prob keep the cmmg. the negatives (ergos of bolt catch and rear charging handle) might not outweigh the benefits of delayed blowback and trigger options in MY hands. I know a lot of people seem to have disdain for the rear charging handle. You can change to a side charger like others have if it really bothers you. Several on this forum have done that with the Guard. I personally like the charging handle in the rear. A ton of ambi ones to choose from on the market and unless you have a gun jamming a lot, what is the big deal? You have BHO on the Guard which works 100% for me so when I run dry bolt is already to the rear. The only time I touch my charging handle is when I'm starting off from a closed bolt to charge the gun, clear a live round to show an RO that I have a clear chamber. |
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Posted: 7/13/2019 12:54:16 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Slower cycle speed has no real benefit in a pistol caliber semi auto. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Slower cycle speed has no real benefit in a pistol caliber semi auto. For a semi auto, straight blow back is a simple and reliable design. Why complicate things when there is no benefit? |
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Posted: 7/13/2019 1:27:34 PM EDT
[#49]
It amazes me people pay so much for the APC. Extruded and MIM little rattleboxes that probably cost B&T $300 to make.
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Posted: 7/13/2019 1:28:05 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even after the tax stamp my scorpion didn’t cost $1k, much less 2k. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but half the newer straight blowback guns have eclipsed the MP5. Aside from a “buttery smooth” recoil (it’s a fucking 9mm btw) it’s an ancient turd loved by gamer nerds and teh gays. Ergonomics require thumbs similar in length to a carrot to reach the safety. No LRBHO. No OEM method of mounting a weapon light. No OEM method of mounting optics. Don’t forget to order new rollers so you can actually make the MP5 run right suppressed, as well. Everything people hate about the G3/HK91 is everything people love about the MP5.... only we get to watch you pay upwards of 1.5k just to own a shitty clone from Pakistan or Turkey. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Demand better, and you’ll get better. Keep paying $2000+ for straight blowback nonsense, and they’re going to be happy to provide that to you. The argument that “but the right thing costs more :(“ goes entirely out the window when MP5 clones cost less than a lot of 9mm straight blowback ARs. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but half the newer straight blowback guns have eclipsed the MP5. Aside from a “buttery smooth” recoil (it’s a fucking 9mm btw) it’s an ancient turd loved by gamer nerds and teh gays. Ergonomics require thumbs similar in length to a carrot to reach the safety. No LRBHO. No OEM method of mounting a weapon light. No OEM method of mounting optics. Don’t forget to order new rollers so you can actually make the MP5 run right suppressed, as well. Everything people hate about the G3/HK91 is everything people love about the MP5.... only we get to watch you pay upwards of 1.5k just to own a shitty clone from Pakistan or Turkey. Second, your points have some merit, but are completely exaggerated hyperbole borne of gun forum bragging. In any case, most all have solutions that work perfectly well, apart from costing money, and could be factory included if the practical demand ever outpaces nostalgia. Most MP5 buyers are after the icon...but so are most people that by an M4gery. Thirdly, you totally miss the modularity aspects of the HK guns which still exceed that of many modern platforms. It has a place, but folks like CZ & B&T are catching up...some forty years later. Such a "turd" though, amiright?
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