Wet tumbling: It's a learning experience. Pics added. - Page 1

Armory » Reloading

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Wet tumbling: It's a learning experience. Pics added. (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 2/11/2012 7:18:15 AM EDT

Pics added at the end.So Thursday I tumbled 1500 rounds in a 5 gallon bucket for 3 hours.

5 gallon bucket

25 Lbs of pins

1500 rounds of once fired 5.56

~ 3.5 gallons water

3 squirts Dawn

a 270 Win case of Lemishine.
The cases came out looking like they were tumbled in corncob for 5 hours, though the PPs and insides were mostly clean and the water came out sudsy and black.
So last night I tumbled about half of the previous load again, but I let them go 4 hours.

Same as above except 850 shells.

Water came out sudsy and kind of a green tinged black.

The shells are a satin brass color, almost like that kind of plastic/fake toy brass color.
I'm tumbling with 450 different shells at an hour this morning.

I'll see what happens.
If ya'll want to chime in, let's have it.

dryflash3: Yes, it's all decapped. I took your advice and got a Lee universal decapper so I could benefit from the flo-thru method of wet tumbling.

25 Lbs of pins in the bottom of the orange bucket and a 'coffee scoop' of brass. The 34 Oz size holds about 450 - 5.56 rounds.

About 3.5 to 4 gallons of hot water, 3 big squirts of Dawn, a .270 shell of Lemishine, And I'm ready to go.

I used a small tube of silicone caulk between the bucket and the existing gasket in the Gamma Seal Lid to tighten it up. No leaks since, but silicone doesn't stick to the plastic of either the bucket or the Gamma Lid. It's just leaving no room for water to dribble through so far. I use the mallet to give the lid an extra 1/4 turn to tighten her up.

CCW spin @ 50 rpm for an hour.

Left and right are finished product.

Raw = the stuff I'm starting with. I've got a lot that I just acquired (in another thread about unloading 55 gallon drums from a P/U).

4 hours + 1 hour = what 1500 rounds look like at 4 hours tumble, and again after they were tumbled for an additional hour with only 850 rounds in the bucket. There was zero noticeable difference. 2nd batch of pretty brass on right was tumbled right after the ugly stuff, as a load of 450 for an hour.
I've got to go take another load out.
Thanks for reading.

Posted: 2/11/2012 8:29:48 AM EDT

[#1]

Were the cases deprimed when you tumbled?

I'm thinking you may have to adjust your case / Dawn / water / media / tumble time / Lemishine ratio.

These are just my guesses,

Lemishine amount looks good to me.

Water and brass amount seem reasonable.

Dawn, I use 2 squirts in my Tumblers tumbler with just 1 gallon of water. So I would try 6-8 squirts or more. Hard to define a squirt.

When you open the lid, all of the empty space in the drum should be nothing but Dawn bubbles. If so, what you will have is the bling under the bubbles.

Maybe use a little less media?

Keep at it, you are breaking new ground with your jumbo tumbler.

Posted: 2/11/2012 9:41:59 AM EDT

[#2]

A 270 Win case full of Lemishine seemed like to much to me so I measured it and it's only ~1 teaspoon which is about right based on the 1/4 ts per gallon that I use.

Buffalo Arms recommend I only use 4lb's of SS media in my Thumlers Model B HS so I tried it and couldn't really tell a difference in 4 or 5 lbs so maybe you could try only using 20 lbs of media and see how that does.

ETA: One thing that does make a big difference in the color of the brass when finished is water temp, the warmer the water the "whiter" the brass will be and the colder the water the more golden color the brass will be, the warm water makes the lemishine work better.

Posted: 2/11/2012 10:26:03 AM EDT

[#3]

Pics added to original post.

dryflash3: Yes, it's all decapped. I took your advice and got a lee
universal decapper so I could benefit from the flo-thru method of wet
tumbling.

Posted: 2/11/2012 6:25:51 PM EDT

[#4]

Hey, Kaos––

Congrats on getting the unit up and running.

As I read your post a couple things struck me––you mention that you are using HOT water for your loads. I've been using only cold water. I recall someone mentioning that hot water tarnishes the brass prematurely (or leaves it clean, but colored a gold/orange hue).

I also made note of your Lemishine dosage. What is the internal volume of a .270 case? I have been using (3) .45 cases full of Lemishine in five or six gallons of cold water. It is about the equivalent of a level tablespoon. One day (the day before yesterday) I used more––just a little more, really––and my brass all went orange. I tumbled it again the next day with dramatically less Lemishine and it was back to the whitish-gold that I'd been getting before.

My dosage of Dawn is five mounded tablespoons (for 5 gallons), swishing the spoon between measuring. When I pour off my wash water it has the consistency of a pint of Guiness.

Anyhow––that's what I've been doing––good luck.

Posted: 2/11/2012 6:41:28 PM EDT

[#5]

Now that you have the pic up, I think you have too much water in your bucket.

I suggest lowering the water level 2 inches from what you are using. And use more Dawn.

"When I pour off my wash water it has the consistency of a pint of Guiness."

That's funny Eight_Ring, and so true.

Posted: 2/11/2012 9:10:11 PM EDT

[#6]

Thanks for the advice.
I'll try 2 inches less water.

I'll try cold water.

And I'll play with various 'more' Dawn.
I might be a pessimist, but I don't think those greenish/bronze shells are going to be pretty again.

The only things I recall doing differently were upping the quantity from ~600 to ~1500, and going from a 2 hour tumble to 4 hours.

I'm back to the coffee scoop mentioned above - 450 or so shells and I'm down to an hour, maybe 75 minutes if I'm busy.

At an hour tumble - I'm still showing a faint 3 finger soot mark in the primer pocket from the anvil, even though everything tumbled is decapped first.

The insides of the shells are bright, but it's once-fired, so it hasn't accumulated any carbon build up.

I am surprised that there's still a faint red ring from the primer sealer around the swege circle, too. I didn't expect that stuff to be so tough.

I don't tend to be a Guinness kinda guy, as I recall - it's kind of 'chewy'. But I get the idea.

The water pouring off is clearly dark, but it's not inky-black.
The .270 holds 46.4 grains.

The .45 auto holds 25.9.

A 30-30 holds 42.5.

A .223 holds 27.6.
The above may be above/below average. But they're the cartridges on my workbench at the time I measured.
I suppose I could try a cut-down 12 gauge hull, if it comes to that.

Posted: 2/12/2012 4:04:44 AM EDT

[#7]

Did you find any steel case in your batch? The problem with steel case is that they will rust in the Lemishine spiked water and release the oxidation in the water which will then coat your brass. This could be the reason the 1 hour tumble looks better.

BTW, I just looked again at your photos, the two "disrupter” you put in the bucket to get mixing looks metallic, are they aluminum or steel? Either one of the two will "rust” in Lemishine and screw your brass up.

Posted: 2/12/2012 7:44:05 AM EDT

[#8]

Holy cow, Lemishine is cheap. Put 8 or 10 heaping tablespoons of Lemishine in that big bucket, maybe a more, and the solution will still be far from saturated.

Let the chemistry help the mechanical action of the pins, all they can do is mechanically move the crud loosened by the Lemishine. The Dawn adds a surfactant to help get surface of the brass clear of the dirt and corrosion.

Every case in that photo in the first post can look like new, but there has to be sufficient acid in the solution to remove the corrosion.

Posted: 2/12/2012 7:55:29 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Did you find any steel case in your batch? The problem with steel case is that they will rust in the Lemishine spiked water and release the oxidation in the water which will then coat your brass. This could be the reason the 1 hour tumble looks better.

BTW, I just looked again at your photos, the two "disrupter” you put in the bucket to get mixing looks metallic, are they aluminum or steel? Either one of the two will "rust” in Lemishine and screw your brass up.

You are good. I missed both of those issues.

Replace those aluminum angle pieces inside the drum. Use SS or plastic.

I like the idea of a 12 Ga shell measure. Keeps the measurement in reloading terms, not something from the kitchen.

Posted: 2/12/2012 8:58:41 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Did you find any steel case in your batch? The problem with steel case is that they will rust in the Lemishine spiked water and release the oxidation in the water which will then coat your brass. This could be the reason the 1 hour tumble looks better.
BTW, I just looked again at your photos, the two "disrupter” you put in the bucket to get mixing looks metallic, are they aluminum or steel? Either one of the two will "rust” in Lemishine and screw your brass up.

They're both fiberglass, with stainless fasteners. I cut a fiberglass baluster I had left over from a deck railing project on the diagonal with a band saw. I was going to use the whole baluster, but I remembered the discussion about BigDawg's first pretzel barrel tumbler, with the hollow tube agitators and trapped materials, and it was just easier to cut one lengthwise.

My picture could have been better.

Good call, though.
I didn't find any steel in that load. It's advertised/bought/paidfor as military brass from a govt auction that I decapped, and I went through each piece one by one by hand as I inspected for damage while decapping. Saying that - I did find two steel cases in a bucket full from a different barrel out of the same lot just last night.

It was just a 'huh' moment when I found them, as I hadn't seen your msg yet. Another good call. I wasn't specifically looking for steel, just bent cases, or cases with mud/pebbles in them and foreign materials
I appreciate that you guys are taking tech matters on this board seriously. I'll go back through each shell in that load one by one to make sure nothing passed by under the crud that I may have missed.
After that, I'll toss a few dozen of the clean bad ones in with the same dosage of the Lemishine and Dawn and run it for an hour at a time for a few cycles and see if they change any.

ETA: AeroE - I'll run the first test batch with more Lemishine to see if that's a help.

I'll get back with photos of the sample batches tomorrow.

Posted: 2/12/2012 10:12:30 AM EDT

[#11]

Too much Dawn, especially if its the super concentrated.

I don't use SS media, but if I put much more than a couple drops of Dawn in my Thumlers, the brass gets tarnished.

Posted: 2/12/2012 11:04:13 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Too much Dawn, especially if its the super concentrated.
I don't use SS media, but if I put much more than a couple drops of Dawn in my Thumlers, the brass gets tarnished.

I don't think it's the Dawn. I use 3 teaspoons, sometimes 4 in my Thumler if the brass is filthy. I've never seen tarnish due to Dawn.

Posted: 2/12/2012 12:39:20 PM EDT

[#13]

So, how did you get the drums out of the truck? The other thread was never finalized.

Posted: 2/12/2012 2:27:24 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Did you find any steel case in your batch? The problem with steel case is that they will rust in the Lemishine spiked water and release the oxidation in the water which will then coat your brass. This could be the reason the 1 hour tumble looks better.

BTW, I just looked again at your photos, the two "disrupter” you put in the bucket to get mixing looks metallic, are they aluminum or steel? Either one of the two will "rust” in Lemishine and screw your brass up.

They're both fiberglass, with stainless fasteners. I cut a fiberglass baluster I had left over from a deck railing project on the diagonal with a band saw. I was going to use the whole baluster, but I remembered the discussion about BigDawg's first pretzel barrel tumbler, with the hollow tube agitators and trapped materials, and it was just easier to cut one lengthwise.

My picture could have been better.

Good call, though.

I didn't find any steel in that load. It's advertised/bought/paidfor as military brass from a govt auction that I decapped, and I went through each piece one by one by hand as I inspected for damage while decapping. Saying that - I did find two steel cases in a bucket full from a different barrel out of the same lot just last night.

It was just a 'huh' moment when I found them, as I hadn't seen your msg yet. Another good call. I wasn't specifically looking for steel, just bent cases, or cases with mud/pebbles in them and foreign materials

I appreciate that you guys are taking tech matters on this board seriously. I'll go back through each shell in that load one by one to make sure nothing passed by under the crud that I may have missed.

After that, I'll toss a few dozen of the clean bad ones in with the same dosage of the Lemishine and Dawn and run it for an hour at a time for a few cycles and see if they change any.

ETA: AeroE - I'll run the first test batch with more Lemishine to see if that's a help.

I'll get back with photos of the sample batches tomorrow.

Glad I could be of help - I am pretty sure that is your problem. If you get rid of those little buggers you will be GTG. Don't worry about the funny looking brass, it will come clean quickly if you retumble it again with clean water/Lemishine/SS media.

Posted: 2/12/2012 6:54:18 PM EDT

[#15]

I'm following your thread to see the results.

Keep the updates coming.

Posted: 2/13/2012 10:13:10 AM EDT

[#16]

Hey Kaos, How did you go about setting up that dryer/tumbler rig?

Posted: 2/13/2012 3:15:43 PM EDT

[#17]

A buddy of mine wet tumbles in bulk in a cement mixer on the side of his house.

Posted: 2/13/2012 3:24:03 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Hey Kaos, How did you go about setting up that dryer/tumbler rig?

I'll post some pics of the inside of the unit in about 2-3 hours.

Warning: They're not exciting.

Posted: 2/13/2012 3:45:36 PM EDT

[#19]

When looking for steel cases, some of them are pretty tough to spot..

I had some S & B that had a brass wash, and was difficult to tell it was steel with a casual glance... they caused quite a bit of staining when I missed them on the first tumble...

The one on the right is steel...

Posted: 2/13/2012 3:51:34 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

When looking for steel cases, some of them are pretty tough to spot..

I had some S & B that had a brass wash, and was difficult to tell it was steel with a casual glance... they caused quite a bit of staining when I missed them on the first tumble...

http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/259/sb1y.jpg

The one on the right is steel...

This is correct. The only surefire way is with a magnet....

Posted: 2/13/2012 3:53:01 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

I'm following your thread to see the results.

Keep the updates coming.

I said I'd run a few loads and post progress pics.

In the mean time I stood a few raw rounds and a few of the tainted rounds in a shallow plastic bowl of hot water and too much Lemi-shine and went to a gun show.

When I got back - the raw rounds were 'cleaner' with the pink tint of copper in a few places. The tainted rounds were the proper shade of yellow below the waterline, but still satin looking.
So I decided to go for it.
I stuffed 750 rounds in the bucket, slightly less water, a little concentrated dawn, and 150 grains of Lemi-shine in a shotgun hull.

75 minutes later I'm rinsing off clean/shiny/yellow/satin brass.
I don't have a clue why they are satin, but I have guesses.

a.) Lemi-shine etching.

2.) The brass abrading the brass in the presence of the Lemi-shine for 4 hours at 50 rpm. I assume that the 50 rpm in a 5 gallon bucket translates to a higher mileage after 4 hours than a little Thumbler diameter at 40 rpm.

c.) ????????

4.) Profit.

I just got done tumbling the second part of the load: 966 brass shells. And I'm still rinsing and shaking the brass out by hand, 2 shells at a time. My RCBS salad spinner is due in from Midway some time tomorrow and I'll be surprised if it actually spins all the pins out.
I'm still working on a dryer concept.

Posted: 2/13/2012 4:44:19 PM EDT

[#22]

I think they are satin because they were polished by the SS media rubbing across it’s surface, not to mention the other pieces of brass. I think because of this, you are never going to get a mirror smooth surface on them, not that it mattered to me at all.

Posted: 2/13/2012 4:49:40 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

My RCBS salad spinner is due in from Midway some time tomorrow and I'll be surprised if it actually spins all the pins out.

I'm still working on a dryer concept.

Fill the bucket part of the RCBS spinner up with water so the basket is half way submerged when you spin. By spinning them in water, there is no surface tension to hold the pins in the cases.

For drying, I just put the wet cases in my old vibrating tumbler with some clean corn cob and they are dry as a bone after 15 min.

-Deke

Posted: 2/13/2012 5:07:03 PM EDT

[#24]

Beware though using a media separator with half of it underwater as this only works for straight wall cases. You are in fact doing a bunch of bottle neck cases and the only reliable method to be sure that the SS media is to do it by hand i.e. holding the case upside down underwater and shaking it – this is the biggest problem for those that upsize the method and that is there is AFAIK, no efficient and reliable method to get the media out of bottle neck cases.

The problem is the bottle neck makes the media separator method unreliable and if you leave any SS media inside the case, there is a chance that it will end up in your barrel when you fire the round. When the next round comes down the pipe, you will get a KB! I predicted this potential problem many months ago in the SS media thread and I recently heard that it in fact happened to someone.

Posted: 2/13/2012 5:23:51 PM EDT

[#25]

I do not know how fast your dryer is spinning but i would guess it's significantly faster than a Thumler and I'm guessing your spinning to fast.

I watched a few videos with Thumler R12s and it looks like the spin around 15-20 rpm. That's on a 6.5" diameter barrel.

––––––––––––warning ––––––––––––––bad math below––––––––––––––––––––

if we assume the rotary tumbler acts like a tumbling mill the the critcal rpm is 265/(D-d)^0.5 where D and d are in inches

We can see for optimum tumbling the barrel speed should change for each diameter case we want to work, So I'll pick say 0.38" case diameter

This gives an optimum rpm of 107 rpm, using thumlers rpm of 20 we see it runs at 20% optimum so cascading and abrasion is the primary mode of wear.

It then follows that a 5 gallon bucket with lets say 10.5" diameter has a critical rpm of 83 rpm and if the same percentage is used then you should be spinning the barrels at 17 rpm to try and optimize cascading.

There is alot of assumptions but from the math it looks like you are getting very little abrasion and cascading.

Posted: 2/13/2012 5:32:00 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Beware though using a media separator with half of it underwater as this only works for straight wall cases. You are in fact doing a bunch of bottle neck cases and the only reliable method to be sure that the SS media is to do it by hand i.e. holding the case upside down underwater and shaking it – this is the biggest problem for those that upsize the method and that is there is AFAIK, no efficient and reliable method to get the media out of bottle neck cases.

The problem is the bottle neck makes the media separator method unreliable and if you leave any SS media inside the case, there is a chance that it will end up in your barrel when you fire the round. When the next round comes down the pipe, you will get a KB! I predicted this potential problem many months ago in the SS media thread and I recently heard that it in fact happened to someone.

Though I could see the potential for a ss rod going down the barrel and not coming out thus obstucting the bore for the next round, I find it unlikely. If the pin is in the case then it most likely will not be projected down the barrel as it will not have the pressure and flow behind it like a bullet. It will bounce around in the case. If it does start traveling down the barrel it will most likely have enough inertia to make it the short distance down the barrel. My greatest concern would be a several ss rods being stuck in the case when the powder is loaded and the charge weight is close to maximum. Now the ss rod has decreased the capacity of the case which may increase pressure to failure.

Posted: 2/13/2012 5:42:15 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Beware though using a media separator with half of it underwater as this only works for straight wall cases. You are in fact doing a bunch of bottle neck cases and the only reliable method to be sure that the SS media is to do it by hand i.e. holding the case upside down underwater and shaking it – this is the biggest problem for those that upsize the method and that is there is AFAIK, no efficient and reliable method to get the media out of bottle neck cases.

The problem is the bottle neck makes the media separator method unreliable and if you leave any SS media inside the case, there is a chance that it will end up in your barrel when you fire the round. When the next round comes down the pipe, you will get a KB! I predicted this potential problem many months ago in the SS media thread and I recently heard that it in fact happened to someone.

Though I could see the potential for a ss rod going down the barrel and not coming out thus obstucting the bore for the next round, I find it unlikely. If the pin is in the case then it most likely will not be projected down the barrel as it will not have the pressure and flow behind it like a bullet. It will bounce around in the case. If it does start traveling down the barrel it will most likely have enough inertia to make it the short distance down the barrel. My greatest concern would be a several ss rods being stuck in the case when the powder is loaded and the charge weight is close to maximum. Now the ss rod has decreased the capacity of the case which may increase pressure to failure.

Only passing on what I know. As with anything safety related, you have to decide for yourself what risk you are willing to take.

Posted: 2/13/2012 6:28:33 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Beware though using a media separator with half of it underwater as this only works for straight wall cases. You are in fact doing a bunch of bottle neck cases and the only reliable method to be sure that the SS media is to do it by hand i.e. holding the case upside down underwater and shaking it – this is the biggest problem for those that upsize the method and that is there is AFAIK, no efficient and reliable method to get the media out of bottle neck cases.

The problem is the bottle neck makes the media separator method unreliable and if you leave any SS media inside the case, there is a chance that it will end up in your barrel when you fire the round. When the next round comes down the pipe, you will get a KB! I predicted this potential problem many months ago in the SS media thread and I recently heard that it in fact happened to someone.

Though I could see the potential for a ss rod going down the barrel and not coming out thus obstucting the bore for the next round, I find it unlikely. If the pin is in the case then it most likely will not be projected down the barrel as it will not have the pressure and flow behind it like a bullet. It will bounce around in the case. If it does start traveling down the barrel it will most likely have enough inertia to make it the short distance down the barrel. My greatest concern would be a several ss rods being stuck in the case when the powder is loaded and the charge weight is close to maximum. Now the ss rod has decreased the capacity of the case which may increase pressure to failure.

Only passing on what I know. As with anything safety related, you have to decide for yourself what risk you are willing to take.

I call B.S. here, as an actual user od SS media and a rotary separator.

Using .223, .308, and .30-06 cases, I have had complete success using a Frankford Arsenal separator, half underwater, to get the pins out of those calibers.

NO different than 9mm or other straight-wall cases.

Whoever told you it didn't work either hasn't actually tried it, or was doing it wrong. I think if you check around, you'll find that most SS wet tumblers use this method with no issues...

Posted: 2/13/2012 6:31:28 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Beware though using a media separator with half of it underwater as this only works for straight wall cases. You are in fact doing a bunch of bottle neck cases and the only reliable method to be sure that the SS media is to do it by hand i.e. holding the case upside down underwater and shaking it – this is the biggest problem for those that upsize the method and that is there is AFAIK, no efficient and reliable method to get the media out of bottle neck cases.

The problem is the bottle neck makes the media separator method unreliable and if you leave any SS media inside the case, there is a chance that it will end up in your barrel when you fire the round. When the next round comes down the pipe, you will get a KB! I predicted this potential problem many months ago in the SS media thread and I recently heard that it in fact happened to someone.

My experience with SS media sticking in cases is the SS media sometimes sticks in the flashole.

Happens in all calibers and in only a few cases per batch.

So I check the flashole of every case by picking up 10-15 cases and looking.

If any media is left inside the dry cases it falls out at this time.

I use the punch from a 22 cal Lee decapper to push out the stuck media. Not hard to do.

Posted: 2/13/2012 6:49:21 PM EDT

[#30]

I have had ss media stick in 223 cases, I had a couple lodge sideways inside the case. I use the half water rotary method to get the media out and usually the only ones left are in the ones in the pockets. I swage after cleaning so I check the primer pockets then. I had a case not want to go on the Dillon swager mandrel and when I looked in the case there was a piece of stainless media wedged in there. Little bugger was in there pretty tight, I used small pick to get it out.

If I hadn't needed to swage the primer pockets I would have found the media when I loaded it, I use a universal decapper in station 1 on my 650 to make sure nothing is in the primer pocket. That being said I can see how it could be possible to load up round like that, not knowing there was media in the case.

Posted: 2/13/2012 8:38:32 PM EDT

[#31]

This started off as an experiment just to prove the concept. I assume that I'll eventually rebuild this one to be 'pretty', and 'finished' as opposed to cobbled together. I've tumbled about 6,000 rounds in this unit since Thursday, (today is the following Monday) so I assume it's working reasonably well so far.

The hard part is figuring out the proper placement of the bucket inside the drum. That means front to back position will be determined by where on the supports you cut the taper to match the angle of the side of the bucket. I just used a 2x10 I had handy. After that you can use wooden shims to fine tune the centerline of the bucket with the centerline of the drum. You want the two centerlines to match.

This method means that your tumbling bucket just slides into the bucket attached to the dryer.

After that, it's just a matter of matching the outside edges of the supports to the shape of the drum so you don't change the shape of the drum. I stress that because you want the drum to keep it's factory rotational shape. Put a dent in it, or rack it askew, and it'll thump and vibrate every revolution.

Check craigslist for dryers with bad heaters, you're going to rewire a 220 dryer to 110 to the motor by gutting the heating circuit anyway. Make sure the motor actually works.

There are vids on dryer repair on youtube, you can search on whatever model you find for help on identifying the motor circuitry.

After that, it's just making a Gamma Seal Lid silicone caulked watertight to the bucket so it wont dribble/leak, and putting an elastic safety bungie on so it won't pop out at speed.

I'll admit that it helps if you can cut wood, and wire an on/off switch SAFELY considering there's spinning mechanical parts weighing ~100 Lbs, and electricity and water in close proximity to human beans.

I advise everyone in the world not to do anything like this tumbler, as I don't want to hear from your lawyers about me being a corrupting influence on your soul, and causing your widow grief.

Quoted:

Hey Kaos, How did you go about setting up that dryer/tumbler rig?

I'm sure I glossed over something marginally interesting. If so, we'll see what we can do to ignore that detail.....

Posted: 2/13/2012 8:43:59 PM EDT

[#32]

<removed> keep the inappropriate GD posts out of this forum. dryflash3

Posted: 2/13/2012 8:52:55 PM EDT

[#33]

Just as an aside:

The ones that say '1 HR', and 'More yellow' / 'Whiter' are being turned out at 750 to 1000 rounds/(75 minutes), so far.

The picture above is mostly to show the subtle differences resulting from playing with the chemistry with more brass and larger quantities of water, and in a '1 hour time frame'.

The next picture is just to show my new lever for my Hornady Classic:

It's got a great throw-length and minimizes arm travel while decapping.

Posted: 2/13/2012 8:53:53 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

<removed> dryflash3

Posted: 2/13/2012 8:55:09 PM EDT

[#35]

Really.

Posted: 2/14/2012 4:06:58 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Beware though using a media separator with half of it underwater as this only works for straight wall cases. You are in fact doing a bunch of bottle neck cases and the only reliable method to be sure that the SS media is to do it by hand i.e. holding the case upside down underwater and shaking it – this is the biggest problem for those that upsize the method and that is there is AFAIK, no efficient and reliable method to get the media out of bottle neck cases.

The problem is the bottle neck makes the media separator method unreliable and if you leave any SS media inside the case, there is a chance that it will end up in your barrel when you fire the round. When the next round comes down the pipe, you will get a KB! I predicted this potential problem many months ago in the SS media thread and I recently heard that it in fact happened to someone.

Though I could see the potential for a ss rod going down the barrel and not coming out thus obstucting the bore for the next round, I find it unlikely. If the pin is in the case then it most likely will not be projected down the barrel as it will not have the pressure and flow behind it like a bullet. It will bounce around in the case. If it does start traveling down the barrel it will most likely have enough inertia to make it the short distance down the barrel. My greatest concern would be a several ss rods being stuck in the case when the powder is loaded and the charge weight is close to maximum. Now the ss rod has decreased the capacity of the case which may increase pressure to failure.

Only passing on what I know. As with anything safety related, you have to decide for yourself what risk you are willing to take.

I call B.S. here, as an actual user od SS media and a rotary separator.

Using .223, .308, and .30-06 cases, I have had complete success using a Frankford Arsenal separator, half underwater, to get the pins out of those calibers.

NO different than 9mm or other straight-wall cases.

Whoever told you it didn't work either hasn't actually tried it, or was doing it wrong. I think if you check around, you'll find that most SS wet tumblers use this method with no issues...

I guess you must think that we are not actual users of SS media – LOL!

As I said above, each person can do whatever they want but the way I see it screaming and yelling that it is BS is not going to change things except give you a false sense of security. When you get that KB, that will be the loudest noise you will hear – just saying….

Posted: 2/14/2012 4:23:37 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

As I said above, each person can do whatever they want but the way I see it screaming and yelling that it is BS is not going to change things except give you a false sense of security When you get that KB, that will be the loudest noise you will hear – just saying…

i have tumbled over 10,000 223 cases and have yet to have any media stick in a case that wasn't stuck in the primer pocket. i usually get 8 or so per batch with pins stuck in the primer pockets

and i use a frankfort arsenal tumbler submerged half in water. I do still inspect all flash holes because they do stick in the flash holes but to say they stick in the case is misleading.

not saying it can't happen but it isn't a high probability in

my opinion from my experience

Posted: 2/14/2012 4:49:33 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
As I said above, each person can do whatever they want but the way I see it screaming and yelling that it is BS is not going to change things except give you a false sense of security When you get that KB, that will be the loudest noise you will hear – just saying…

i have tumbled over 10,000 223 cases and have yet to have any media stick in a case that wasn't stuck in the primer pocket. i usually get 8 or so per batch with pins stuck in the primer pockets

and i use a frankfort arsenal tumbler submerged half in water. I do still inspect all flash holes because they do stick in the flash holes but to say they stick in the case is misleading.

not saying it can't happen but it isn't a high probability in

my opinion from my experience

BIGGDAWG – when you say "not saying it can’t happen but it isn’t a high probability” that is exactly correct. It is a completely a matter of probability and statistics.

The probability of media left in the case after using a media separator to remove the pins is like this - straight wall case < 308 case <223 case <wildcat case. Why, because the constriction of the neck will retard the pins from coming out, the smaller the neck, the greater the chance it will get stuck. In the end, the chance of it happening is indeed low but I would be willing to bet that you did not inspect each of the 10,000 cases you cleaned but what you are saying is that you did not get a KB which also makes sense as even if a piece of media is stuck inside the case, it will still need to come out and in addition, it will have to stay in the barrel, each additional requirement decrease the odds of a KB.

However, to me, this is not a case of high and low probability. For example, I am sure that all of us unload our firearms before we put them in storage. However, we all check the chamber (I hope) when we take the gun out before we dry fire it. A person who says to himself that I know that I am so careful that I know I never would put a loaded gun away and so don’t need to check that chamber before I dry fire it will probably be perfectly fine for thousands of times he does this, but that one time when he forget to unload the gun he will be in for a nasty surprise. Guess what, the fact that he did not have a problem the 999 times he did this does absolutely nothing to help the one time the gun actually went off. This is why we don’t use low probability to skip gun safety. It is the same reason why I don’t trust the media separator method to ensure that no media is in the case. Again, it is a free country and no one should tell someone else what is the right thing to do but I am just saying this is what I do.

Posted: 2/14/2012 6:50:25 AM EDT

[#39]

I removed the GD post and quote.

No more calling BS.

If you disagree, state your case politely and post some pics to prove your point, otherwise you won't be believed. See how nicely I put that?

This is a good thread about an alternate home made wet tumbler.

Do not be the one responsible for getting it locked. dryflash3

Posted: 2/14/2012 8:57:07 AM EDT

[#40]

So far I've been using my Dillon separator after my first or second batch and haven't had pins stuck in the flash holes or interior.

My biggest problem is scattering pins and pins that stick to the separator. I start the rotation out very slow, then after a couple of minutes I give the separator a vigorous spin for a few turns. I'm not operating in the most organized arrangement in my garage right now and it's too cold to do much about it, but I have to work out some way of keeping everything contained.

I found a large strainer at Target week before last that works well for draining the water. It captures most of the pins, a small number, maybe 10 or so escape into the bucket where I drain to. I'll fix that by painting the mesh with some polyurethane varnish to close some of the mesh and reduce the size of the mesh at the bottom, The strainer is large enough to sit in the top of a large pet food bucket. I haven't tried it in a standard 5 gallon bucket, it might be just a tad small. The strainer was on sale for $6 and change.

On the topic of the edits. All y'all know better, and you should thank dryflash3 for keeping the thread alive. I will almost never do a surgical edit these days after one that covered multiple posts over several pages, I'm going to lock them at best, and if you can't find the thread, it's deleted and ain't coming back.

Posted: 2/14/2012 9:45:01 AM EDT

[#41]

Yip, my thanks to Dryflash3 for keeping this interesting thread alive, sorry, best not to get too wound up in these discussions.

AeroE, I am kind of interest in your work flow. At least for the pistol brass where I use a Cabela media separator, I am not getting any problem with the pins sticking to the separator, it might have something to do with how the separator is designed, where are the pins sticking?

I am also wondering about the strainer. What I normally do after running the separator is the pins are on the bottom bucket (don’t use the top part here since there is no dust). I lift the bucket and pour most of the water away I then put the bucket on top of the Thumler’s Tumbler’s barrel and use a water stream to wash the media back inside the barrel. After that, I just pour and drain the excess water out and I am pretty much done since the SS media does not need to be dry for storage. So no strainer needed?

Posted: 2/14/2012 11:01:09 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
So far I've been using my Dillon separator after my first or second batch and haven't had pins stuck in the flash holes or interior.

My biggest problem is scattering pins and pins that stick to the separator. I start the rotation out very slow, then after a couple of minutes I give the separator a vigorous spin for a few turns. I'm not operating in the most organized arrangement in my garage right now and it's too cold to do much about it, but I have to work out some way of keeping everything contained.

I found a large strainer at Target week before last that works well for draining the water. It captures most of the pins, a small number, maybe 10 or so escape into the bucket where I drain to. I'll fix that by painting the mesh with some polyurethane varnish to close some of the mesh and reduce the size of the mesh at the bottom, The strainer is large enough to sit in the top of a large pet food bucket. I haven't tried it in a standard 5 gallon bucket, it might be just a tad small. The strainer was on sale for $6 and change.

Could you show us a pics of the strainer you got from Target? I've been looking for one for a bit, but haven't had any luck.

Posted: 2/14/2012 12:05:36 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So far I've been using my Dillon separator after my first or second batch and haven't had pins stuck in the flash holes or interior.

My biggest problem is scattering pins and pins that stick to the separator. I start the rotation out very slow, then after a couple of minutes I give the separator a vigorous spin for a few turns. I'm not operating in the most organized arrangement in my garage right now and it's too cold to do much about it, but I have to work out some way of keeping everything contained.

I found a large strainer at Target week before last that works well for draining the water. It captures most of the pins, a small number, maybe 10 or so escape into the bucket where I drain to. I'll fix that by painting the mesh with some polyurethane varnish to close some of the mesh and reduce the size of the mesh at the bottom, The strainer is large enough to sit in the top of a large pet food bucket. I haven't tried it in a standard 5 gallon bucket, it might be just a tad small. The strainer was on sale for $6 and change.

Could you show us a pics of the strainer you got from Target? I've been looking for one for a bit, but haven't had any luck.

This is the strainer: http://www.target.com/s?searchTerm=strainer&category=0|All|matchallany|all+categories

Posted: 2/14/2012 12:15:12 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Yip, my thanks to Dryflash3 for keeping this interesting thread alive, sorry, best not to get too wound up in these discussions.

AeroE, I am kind of interest in your work flow. At least for the pistol brass where I use a Cabela media separator, I am not getting any problem with the pins sticking to the separator, it might have something to do with how the separator is designed, where are the pins sticking?

I am also wondering about the strainer. What I normally do after running the separator is the pins are on the bottom bucket (don’t use the top part here since there is no dust). I lift the bucket and pour most of the water away I then put the bucket on top of the Thumler’s Tumbler’s barrel and use a water stream to wash the media back inside the barrel. After that, I just pour and drain the excess water out and I am pretty much done since the SS media does not need to be dry for storage. So no strainer needed?

I start with my drum in the kitchen sink where I charge it with Lemishine, soap, and cases. After the initial soak, I carry it to the garage, add the media, install the gasket and lid, and then tumble.

When the batch is finished, I dump the cases and pins into the strainer over a bucket to catch the water. Then dump the pins plus cases into my separator. Depending on whether I'm going to use the separator with other media I either leave the pins or dump them into a container for storage after they've dried. Some pins simply stick to the plastic of the separator due to the soap. Same inside the tumbler drum; if I'm going to use it again with SS media, I leave them for the next batch.

Before I bought this new strainer I used an old aluminum colander with a piece of netting liberated from the sewing supplies. This worked, but not great as the folds in the net trapped pins. The first batch or two I dumped directly from the drum into the separator, but that is a non-starter and I'm not going to do that again.

I'm considering a dedicated separator, one with a lid. I don't recall if the one sold by Cabela's is set up that way, I know that Midway sells one.

Posted: 2/14/2012 12:52:54 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Yip, my thanks to Dryflash3 for keeping this interesting thread alive, sorry, best not to get too wound up in these discussions.

AeroE, I am kind of interest in your work flow. At least for the pistol brass where I use a Cabela media separator, I am not getting any problem with the pins sticking to the separator, it might have something to do with how the separator is designed, where are the pins sticking?

I am also wondering about the strainer. What I normally do after running the separator is the pins are on the bottom bucket (don’t use the top part here since there is no dust). I lift the bucket and pour most of the water away I then put the bucket on top of the Thumler’s Tumbler’s barrel and use a water stream to wash the media back inside the barrel. After that, I just pour and drain the excess water out and I am pretty much done since the SS media does not need to be dry for storage. So no strainer needed?

I start with my drum in the kitchen sink where I charge it with Lemishine, soap, and cases. After the initial soak, I carry it to the garage, add the media, install the gasket and lid, and then tumble.

When the batch is finished, I dump the cases and pins into the strainer over a bucket to catch the water. Then dump the pins plus cases into my separator. Depending on whether I'm going to use the separator with other media I either leave the pins or dump them into a container for storage after they've dried. Some pins simply stick to the plastic of the separator due to the soap. Same inside the tumbler drum; if I'm going to use it again with SS media, I leave them for the next batch.

Before I bought this new strainer I used an old aluminum colander with a piece of netting liberated from the sewing supplies. This worked, but not great as the folds in the net trapped pins. The first batch or two I dumped directly from the drum into the separator, but that is a non-starter and I'm not going to do that again.

I'm considering a dedicated separator, one with a lid. I don't recall if the one sold by Cabela's is set up that way, I know that Midway sells one.

A.) Your link didn't work as planned. It just goes to a generic Target page with 'strainer' as the search word.

2.) So you're not using the salad spinner yet, just a version of a colander?

I just picked up a

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/176956/rcbs-rotary-case-and-media-separator

And I'm minutes away from giving it a whirl, so to speak.

I tried Step #1: The 'colander over the bucket' trick to separate pins before Step #2: 'Rinsing the soap and pins from the shells - one by one'. tedium.

Hateful for anything more than 20 shells at a time.

Posted: 2/14/2012 1:21:39 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Yip, my thanks to Dryflash3 for keeping this interesting thread alive, sorry, best not to get too wound up in these discussions.

AeroE, I am kind of interest in your work flow. At least for the pistol brass where I use a Cabela media separator, I am not getting any problem with the pins sticking to the separator, it might have something to do with how the separator is designed, where are the pins sticking?

I am also wondering about the strainer. What I normally do after running the separator is the pins are on the bottom bucket (don’t use the top part here since there is no dust). I lift the bucket and pour most of the water away I then put the bucket on top of the Thumler’s Tumbler’s barrel and use a water stream to wash the media back inside the barrel. After that, I just pour and drain the excess water out and I am pretty much done since the SS media does not need to be dry for storage. So no strainer needed?

I start with my drum in the kitchen sink where I charge it with Lemishine, soap, and cases. After the initial soak, I carry it to the garage, add the media, install the gasket and lid, and then tumble.

When the batch is finished, I dump the cases and pins into the strainer over a bucket to catch the water. Then dump the pins plus cases into my separator. Depending on whether I'm going to use the separator with other media I either leave the pins or dump them into a container for storage after they've dried. Some pins simply stick to the plastic of the separator due to the soap. Same inside the tumbler drum; if I'm going to use it again with SS media, I leave them for the next batch.

Before I bought this new strainer I used an old aluminum colander with a piece of netting liberated from the sewing supplies. This worked, but not great as the folds in the net trapped pins. The first batch or two I dumped directly from the drum into the separator, but that is a non-starter and I'm not going to do that again.

I'm considering a dedicated separator, one with a lid. I don't recall if the one sold by Cabela's is set up that way, I know that Midway sells one.

OK thanks for the description. I can see what we are doing differently. I basically do the 5 rinse right in the tumbler bucket after the tumbling before I put the media and brass into the separator but you are dumping the mixture as is into the separator and then rinsing the media later in the strainer. This is probably the reason I don’t have any pins sticking to the separator i.e. because all the dirty water and soap is already gone by the time I put the brass/media into the separator. Since the brass and pins are already clean, I don’t rinse and so don't need the strainer.

Not saying the way I do it is necessary better but just different and it might be worthwhile to try to see if it helps streamline things. The separator I use is this one:

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Cabelas-Rotary-Media-Separator/731858.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dmedia%2Bseparator%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts%26x%3D12%26y%3D8&Ntt=media+separator&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products

Works Ok for me for the last three years. The hindges are a little weak but the good part is that you can actually separate the top and bottom of the basket and also the lids. So pretty cheap and effective. I like taking the top lid off and just using the bottom to hold the water so that the media comes out.

Posted: 2/14/2012 2:23:28 PM EDT

[#47]

I just did 802 5.56 rounds in my 5 gallon tumbler.
When it was done tumbling - I dumped all the liquid I could easily manage down the drain.

I half filled it with cold water and again dumped the water.
I put my brand new RCBS spinner next to my bucket and scooped out a 16 Oz coffee can of shells and pins into the RSBS spinner with *no* additional water.

I spun 'em about a dozen times in each direction, that took about a minute.

I dumped the shells into a bucket of clean water, and repeated until my tumbler was empty of shells.
After the above - I cleaned my shells as normal, just to check. I reached unto the water, grabbed 2 shells, shook 'em underwater with the mouth down to shake any pins loose.

I did that for all of them, which is how I know it was 802 shells.
When I got to the bottom of the rinse water bucket I had a total of *7* pins in the water.
Total time to process them through the tumbler: 70 minutes.

Total time to process them through the RCBS: 12 to 15 minutes.

(Total time to 2nd check them: 55 minutes. This is less time than I normally spend, by about 30 to 40 minutes, as the process of separating 25 Lbs of pins from the bucket of shells normally adds a lot of extra work. All I had to do now was the final step of a few shakes/pair in water.)
Just a report to let ya'll know how we do it with Whirlpool brand tumblers.

Posted: 2/14/2012 2:33:05 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Yip, my thanks to Dryflash3 for keeping this interesting thread alive, sorry, best not to get too wound up in these discussions.

AeroE, I am kind of interest in your work flow. At least for the pistol brass where I use a Cabela media separator, I am not getting any problem with the pins sticking to the separator, it might have something to do with how the separator is designed, where are the pins sticking?

I am also wondering about the strainer. What I normally do after running the separator is the pins are on the bottom bucket (don’t use the top part here since there is no dust). I lift the bucket and pour most of the water away I then put the bucket on top of the Thumler’s Tumbler’s barrel and use a water stream to wash the media back inside the barrel. After that, I just pour and drain the excess water out and I am pretty much done since the SS media does not need to be dry for storage. So no strainer needed?

I start with my drum in the kitchen sink where I charge it with Lemishine, soap, and cases. After the initial soak, I carry it to the garage, add the media, install the gasket and lid, and then tumble.

When the batch is finished, I dump the cases and pins into the strainer over a bucket to catch the water. Then dump the pins plus cases into my separator. Depending on whether I'm going to use the separator with other media I either leave the pins or dump them into a container for storage after they've dried. Some pins simply stick to the plastic of the separator due to the soap. Same inside the tumbler drum; if I'm going to use it again with SS media, I leave them for the next batch.

Before I bought this new strainer I used an old aluminum colander with a piece of netting liberated from the sewing supplies. This worked, but not great as the folds in the net trapped pins. The first batch or two I dumped directly from the drum into the separator, but that is a non-starter and I'm not going to do that again.

I'm considering a dedicated separator, one with a lid. I don't recall if the one sold by Cabela's is set up that way, I know that Midway sells one.

A.) Your link didn't work as planned. It just goes to a generic Target page with 'strainer' as the search word.

2.) So you're not using the salad spinner yet, just a version of a colander?
I just picked up a http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/large/176/176956.jpg
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/176956/rcbs-rotary-case-and-media-separator
And I'm minutes away from giving it a whirl, so to speak.

I tried Step #1: The 'colander over the bucket' trick to separate pins before Step #2: 'Rinsing the soap and pins from the shells - one by one'. tedium.
Hateful for anything more than 20 shells at a time.

The big Dillon separator doesn't have a lid.

Posted: 2/14/2012 2:48:35 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

I just did 802 5.56 rounds in my 5 gallon tumbler.

When it was done tumbling - I dumped all the liquid I could easily manage down the drain.

I half filled it with cold water and again dumped the water.

I put my brand new RCBS spinner next to my bucket and scooped out a 16 Oz coffee can of shells and pins into the RSBS spinner with *no* additional water.

I spun 'em about a dozen times in each direction, that took about a minute.

I dumped the shells into a bucket of clean water, and repeated until my tumbler was empty of shells.

After the above - I cleaned my shells as normal, just to check. I reached unto the water, grabbed 2 shells, shook 'em underwater with the mouth down to shake any pins loose.

I did that for all of them, which is how I know it was 802 shells.

When I got to the bottom of the rinse water bucket I had a total of *7* pins in the water.

Total time to process them through the tumbler: 70 minutes.

Total time to process them through the RCBS: 12 to 15 minutes.

(Total time to 2nd check them: 55 minutes. This is less time than I normally spend, by about 30 to 40 minutes, as the process of separating 25 Lbs of pins from the bucket of shells normally adds a lot of extra work. All I had to do now was the final step of a few shakes/pair in water.)

Just a report to let ya'll know how we do it with Whirlpool brand tumblers.

Nice job!

A couple of points. First, the way you do the rinse in the tumbler is how I do it. However, I have found that it takes at least 5 separate rinses to get rid of most of the crap in the water. It is this stuff that if left on the case will turn your nice bright brass dull later. Also when you dump the rinse water, try your best to get rid of as much of it as possible before you put in fresh water, this increases your rinse efficiency significantly.

Your 7 pins is exactly the reason why I don’t do the media separator method. Remember, it only takes one pin in the barrel to ruin your day.

Posted: 2/14/2012 4:41:42 PM EDT

[#50]

Beyond the constriction of the bottle neck cases having a greater tendency to keep pins in the cartridge, I wonder if the pins in the flash holes is due to a different vairable. I'm wondering if it could be tied to how fast the tubs are spinning and how full they are. There could be some combination where one is spinning too fast and getting a lot of material thrown and impacting instead of sliding.

OP, how easy would it be to change the gear reduction ratio on the motor/tub ? The only set up I remember was a rubber timing belt around the drum that went down to a small pulley on a motor. The motor sits on a hinged plate and its weight keep sthe belt in tension. The motor pully is already pretty small so I don't know if the gear ratio is easily changed. The only other way is to put a rotery resister on the power cord and dial it down on rpms, this may not work with the motor. I'm no electrical engineer but I know some motors will burn up if a resister is used to slow the motor down.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Wet tumbling: It's a learning experience. Pics added. (Page 1 of 2)

Armory » Reloading

Warning

Confirm Action

About AR15.COM

Stay Connected

Newsletter

Contact Us