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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/21/2024 6:03:06 PM EDT
Hey everyone, new here so forgive me if formatting is off or I am in the wrong place. Looking for a bit of advice on how to move forward.
I am in a pretty unique situation at the moment. Basically, my local FFL/SOT was forced to close doors after their dog bit someone and they could not come up with the cash. Local PD seized all of their firearms to auction off to recoup some of the plaintiffs judgement, while ATF confiscated all NFA items. I was, at the time, awaiting approval on four Form 4's for suppressors. Rather than Form 3 the NFA items over to a new shop before closing doors, they decided to keep quiet and let it happen without so much as a phone call or email. I have been in touch with my field office and IOI, who are informing me that because the form 4's were pending, they technically still belong to the FFL and there is not much I can do. While it seems like they are trying to be helpful, they are essentially telling me that I am SOL and there is no way to have them Form 3'd to another SOT or to expedite the approval. I am at a loss for what to do. I have been in touch with ATF, NFA, 2A attorneys, etc etc and just keeps going round and round. The IOI is steadfast on me being unable to It seems like my best bet is maybe to file a civil claim against the FFL? Or is this information incorrect and there should be a way to get these pushed through? I spoke with a 2a attorney who offered to be liaison between me and the ATF for a fee and see if he can convince them to do something. So, am I unlucky and SOL and will need to file civilly against the FFL to recoup the lost monies? Or is the IOI incorrect and ATF should be able to transfer/approve these? Thanks for everything in advance! |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/22/2024 11:10:53 AM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By LAjamil1: Hey everyone, new here so forgive me if formatting is off or I am in the wrong place. Looking for a bit of advice on how to move forward. I am in a pretty unique situation at the moment. Basically, my local FFL/SOT was forced to close doors after their dog bit someone and they could not come up with the cash. Local PD seized all of their firearms to auction off to recoup some of the plaintiffs judgement, while ATF confiscated all NFA items. I was, at the time, awaiting approval on four Form 4's for suppressors. Rather than Form 3 the NFA items over to a new shop before closing doors, they decided to keep quiet and let it happen without so much as a phone call or email. I have been in touch with my field office and IOI, who are informing me that because the form 4's were pending, they technically still belong to the FFL and there is not much I can do. While it seems like they are trying to be helpful, they are essentially telling me that I am SOL and there is no way to have them Form 3'd to another SOT or to expedite the approval. I am at a loss for what to do. I have been in touch with ATF, NFA, 2A attorneys, etc etc and just keeps going round and round. The IOI is steadfast on me being unable to It seems like my best bet is maybe to file a civil claim against the FFL? Or is this information incorrect and there should be a way to get these pushed through? I spoke with a 2a attorney who offered to be liaison between me and the ATF for a fee and see if he can convince them to do something. So, am I unlucky and SOL and will need to file civilly against the FFL to recoup the lost monies? Or is the IOI incorrect and ATF should be able to transfer/approve these? Thanks for everything in advance! Good news for you is ATF has the NFA, not the local PD. Was FFL/SOT revoked or did they just close shop? Any criminal charges pending against FFL? Uner what authority did ATF seize the NFA items? Seems like there is a lot more going on than what you have posted. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/22/2024 1:50:42 PM EDT
[#2]
I would agree but that is about all I know at the moment. Their dog bit someone and the plaintiff was awarded money. It's my understanding the store was closed and items auctioned to recoup some of the money owed to the plaintiff. That wouldn't, however, explain why their FFL/SOT is no longer valid. So I agree, it seems like there is more going on. I'm not sure I will get a straight answer as the owners won't answer and ATF doesn't know.
Either way, ATF has confirmed they are in possession of my NFA items. However, they are saying because they are still registered to the (now defunct) SOT, that there is no way to ever transfer them out of their name. I find this incredibly hard to believe, and refuse to acknowledge this is the first time something like this has ever happened. Are they truly stuck in the no longer active SOT's name? Is there really nothing the ATF can do to force a new Form 3 and transfer them to a new SOT? They are basically saying I am shit out of luck. And the kicker, the shop has declared bankruptcy so any chances of getting my money back civilly is out the window. I've never heard of such a situation and I am clueless as to how to escalate the issue. |
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Posted: 5/22/2024 2:26:56 PM EDT
[#3]
Have you tried contacting the NFA branch or are you just talking to a field office?
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Posted: 5/22/2024 2:32:40 PM EDT
[#4]
I'd be calling my Congressman.
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Posted: 5/22/2024 2:49:09 PM EDT
[#5]
where in Florida?
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USA
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Posted: 5/22/2024 2:51:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: kel]
[#6]
I had this sort of thing happen.
A dealer holding almost 30 NFA items of mine got arrested before he filed transfer forms to me. He went to jail, became destitute, couldnt pay his FFL/SOT, became a stinker to his clients and just flipped the bird to everyone and surrendered all the inventory to ATF for destruction. I claimed my stuff. But ATF took position that the items weren’t mine because no forms were filed. Dealer refused to sign forms. Catch-22. So the US Attorney prosecuted the firearms, sent them on the path to forfeiture and the shredder. Couple year legal battle ensued. PM me with specific questions if you want. |
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Posted: 5/22/2024 3:27:28 PM EDT
[#7]
I wonder if there is some way that this stuff could be avoided by having a separate form, or follow on form, or something, where purchase = legal ownership but not possession until Form 4 approved.
That would allow people to simply have it form 3'd to another dealer if something like this happens. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 5/22/2024 5:51:24 PM EDT
[#8]
Originally Posted By LAjamil1: Hey everyone, new here so forgive me if formatting is off or I am in the wrong place. Looking for a bit of advice on how to move forward. I am in a pretty unique situation at the moment. Basically, my local FFL/SOT was forced to close doors after their dog bit someone and they could not come up with the cash. Local PD seized all of their firearms to auction off to recoup some of the plaintiffs judgement, while ATF confiscated all NFA items. I was, at the time, awaiting approval on four Form 4's for suppressors. Rather than Form 3 the NFA items over to a new shop before closing doors, they decided to keep quiet and let it happen without so much as a phone call or email. I have been in touch with my field office and IOI, who are informing me that because the form 4's were pending, they technically still belong to the FFL and there is not much I can do. While it seems like they are trying to be helpful, they are essentially telling me that I am SOL and there is no way to have them Form 3'd to another SOT or to expedite the approval. I am at a loss for what to do. I have been in touch with ATF, NFA, 2A attorneys, etc etc and just keeps going round and round. The IOI is steadfast on me being unable to It seems like my best bet is maybe to file a civil claim against the FFL? Or is this information incorrect and there should be a way to get these pushed through? I spoke with a 2a attorney who offered to be liaison between me and the ATF for a fee and see if he can convince them to do something. So, am I unlucky and SOL and will need to file civilly against the FFL to recoup the lost monies? Or is the IOI incorrect and ATF should be able to transfer/approve these? Thanks for everything in advance! So had the F4's been submitted/"in process" ? |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 5/22/2024 7:39:50 PM EDT
[#9]
Had something similar happen around 2016, local dealer got shut down by atf due to some shady stuff they were doing. They took possession of all the nfa stuff, called the local atf office and asked about my form 4, they didn’t give much info except to say that I’ll be contacted at some point. Can’t remember how long but I did get contacted by atf and the gave me the days I could go to shop to pick my suppressor up.
When I showed up they had a bunch of suppressors on the counter with paperwork and a couple atf agents taking care of the transfers. I only got a copy of my stamp and not the actual stamp like I should have, these were all paper forms. I asked about the real stamp and was told this is what you get. About a month later the real stamp showed up in my mailbox. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/22/2024 8:09:14 PM EDT
[#10]
I have contacted both ATF Field office, IOI, and NFA branch. It's really hard to get a contact to escalate the situation. I was forwarded to someone else at NFA today and left a voicemail but have n o clue about his title or position.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/22/2024 8:10:03 PM EDT
[#11]
This is in Miami, FL
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/22/2024 8:11:01 PM EDT
[#12]
Would love to ask a few questions if you don't mind. Will PM you. Stories like these are what give me hope, and baffle me further as to why they would be telling me I will never see them again.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/22/2024 8:14:00 PM EDT
[#13]
Yep, all four Form 4's are currently submitted and still pending. So contrary to what the field agent told me (he has been told by higher ups that they will never be approved) they are still running the normal approval course.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/22/2024 8:16:42 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By arjohnson: Had something similar happen around 2016, local dealer got shut down by atf due to some shady stuff they were doing. They took possession of all the nfa stuff, called the local atf office and asked about my form 4, they didn’t give much info except to say that I’ll be contacted at some point. Can’t remember how long but I did get contacted by atf and the gave me the days I could go to shop to pick my suppressor up. When I showed up they had a bunch of suppressors on the counter with paperwork and a couple atf agents taking care of the transfers. I only got a copy of my stamp and not the actual stamp like I should have, these were all paper forms. I asked about the real stamp and was told this is what you get. About a month later the real stamp showed up in my mailbox. Interesting. And at the time, were your forms still pending/in process or had you already been approved prior/during the shutdown? The reasoning behind him saying I won't receive them is he says they are still technically registered to an SOT that no longer exists and my forms haven't been approved yet. He's implying the ATF can't personally sign them over to me. Surely the ATF must have a way to transfer/expedite/approve forms despite the Form 3's still being registered to a shut-down SOT right? |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/22/2024 8:18:31 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PointBlank82: I'd be calling my Congressman. I've filled out both forms from FL senators. Not sure how much that can really do but I'm all out of options and will try anything at this point. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/22/2024 8:19:56 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kel: I had this sort of thing happen. A dealer holding almost 30 NFA items of mine got arrested before he filed transfer forms to me. He went to jail, became destitute, couldnt pay his FFL/SOT, became a stinker to his clients and just flipped the bird to everyone and surrendered all the inventory to ATF for destruction. I claimed my stuff. But ATF took position that the items weren’t mine because no forms were filed. Dealer refused to sign forms. Catch-22. So the US Attorney prosecuted the firearms, sent them on the path to forfeiture and the shredder. Couple year legal battle ensued. PM me with specific questions if you want. Did you finally end up with your items? Wow, that must have been so frustrating. Glad to hear it worked out for you man, fingers crossed for a similar outcome. Still learning the forum features but will PM you now. |
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Posted: 5/22/2024 8:32:43 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LAjamil1: I've filled out both forms from FL senators. Not sure how much that can really do but I'm all out of options and will try anything at this point. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/22/2024 9:43:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: RenegadeX]
[#18]
I dont believe for a second this is over a dog bite. A dog may have bitten someone, but that does not get a business shuttered and its inventory confiscated.
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PA, USA
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Posted: 5/22/2024 9:47:48 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LAjamil1: Interesting. And at the time, were your forms still pending/in process or had you already been approved prior/during the shutdown? The reasoning behind him saying I won't receive them is he says they are still technically registered to an SOT that no longer exists and my forms haven't been approved yet. He's implying the ATF can't personally sign them over to me. Surely the ATF must have a way to transfer/expedite/approve forms despite the Form 3's still being registered to a shut-down SOT right? At the time mine was pending, as I said there were a bunch on the counter with paperwork for other customers as well. My guess is atf had to go through and figure it all out. At the time approvals were taking around 6 months, this one took a year. If your form 4 was submitted I’d contact local atf office and find out what’s going on, if it’s something you paid for but never submitted I’m not sure what they’ll do. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/23/2024 1:11:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: LAjamil1]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tortilla-flats: Contact your US Representative. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tortilla-flats: Originally Posted By LAjamil1: I've filled out both forms from FL senators. Not sure how much that can really do but I'm all out of options and will try anything at this point. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/23/2024 1:14:04 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RenegadeX: I dont believe for a second this is over a dog bite. A dog may have bitten someone, but that does not get a business shuttered and its inventory confiscated. I've found the docket and case online, and nothing else regarding anything criminal. From what the ATF IOI told me, well alluded to, was the judgement was for around $150,000 and they were obviously unable to come up with the money. Their items (including firearms) were auctioned off to recoup as much of the judgement as possible. The reason, he told me, for losing their FFL was because it has to be tied to a property which they were promptly evicted from. I asked him flat out if there was anything criminal going one. He said while they were certainly negligent, he didn't see anything criminal. Whether or not all of this is the case or not, I don't think I'll ever know. All I know is they're closed and ATF now has my items. They are saying those with previously approved Form 4's are good to go, and anyone with a pending Form 4 is SOL. I find all of it hard to believe. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/23/2024 1:16:17 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LAjamil1: Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LAjamil1: Originally Posted By tortilla-flats: Originally Posted By LAjamil1: I've filled out both forms from FL senators. Not sure how much that can really do but I'm all out of options and will try anything at this point. Got it, will do that first thing tomorrow. Thanks |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/23/2024 1:21:00 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By arjohnson: At the time mine was pending, as I said there were a bunch on the counter with paperwork for other customers as well. My guess is atf had to go through and figure it all out. At the time approvals were taking around 6 months, this one took a year. If your form 4 was submitted I’d contact local atf office and find out what’s going on, if it’s something you paid for but never submitted I’m not sure what they’ll do. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By arjohnson: Originally Posted By LAjamil1: Interesting. And at the time, were your forms still pending/in process or had you already been approved prior/during the shutdown? The reasoning behind him saying I won't receive them is he says they are still technically registered to an SOT that no longer exists and my forms haven't been approved yet. He's implying the ATF can't personally sign them over to me. Surely the ATF must have a way to transfer/expedite/approve forms despite the Form 3's still being registered to a shut-down SOT right? At the time mine was pending, as I said there were a bunch on the counter with paperwork for other customers as well. My guess is atf had to go through and figure it all out. At the time approvals were taking around 6 months, this one took a year. If your form 4 was submitted I’d contact local atf office and find out what’s going on, if it’s something you paid for but never submitted I’m not sure what they’ll do. My forms are 100% pending, starting as late as October '23 and the last being submitted March of this year. Good to know though. Glad to hear your situation worked out. I've spoken to ATF, more times than I can count, and they keep telling me the same thing. My Form 4's were pending when they went under and because of that I wont be able to collect them....ever. I guess I'm looking for people like you who have been in a similar situation and seeing if there is any other channel/agency/position that I haven't spoken to yet to try to get the word out. I don't know who else to reach out to beside ATF, NFA, and as others have pointed out here the political channels. Every single discussion with ATF results in the same answers. "We're sorry to hear that but because your Form 4's were still pending at the time of the business closure, there is no way to transfer them out. Those with approved Form 4's are welcome to get their stuff" |
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Posted: 5/23/2024 1:22:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Daggertt]
[#24]
If it hasn't been transferred (ie form 4 approved), then it's still in their possession and on their books.
But if you have proof of payment, then I'd argue it belongs to you. Ie. Not their property (regardless of who you bought it from. If you bought it from the ffl directly or elsewhere and just transferred it through him, it's the same... The ffl doesn't own it. He's just holding it for you while the transfer is in process, which he charges you to do as a service either explicitly or implied by the transfer fee). If you had signed a gun over to the ffl to sell on consignment, and this happened, it would also not be theirs, despite being in their possession. And the 5th amendment says they can't confiscate your property without compensating you. If the government has your property, I'd argue they owe you for the items if they can't find a way to get them to you. (I'm not a lawyer) |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 5/23/2024 7:15:53 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LAjamil1: My forms are 100% pending, starting as late as October '23 and the last being submitted March of this year. Good to know though. Glad to hear your situation worked out. I've spoken to ATF, more times than I can count, and they keep telling me the same thing. My Form 4's were pending when they went under and because of that I wont be able to collect them....ever. I guess I'm looking for people like you who have been in a similar situation and seeing if there is any other channel/agency/position that I haven't spoken to yet to try to get the word out. I don't know who else to reach out to beside ATF, NFA, and as others have pointed out here the political channels. Every single discussion with ATF results in the same answers. "We're sorry to hear that but because your Form 4's were still pending at the time of the business closure, there is no way to transfer them out. Those with approved Form 4's are welcome to get their stuff" I seen the shop on the news being closed by atf, total surprise. Like you I was like wtf and started the process of trying to get info, as I said I contacted local atf office and wasn’t given much info, probably because it just happened. I knew one of the employees that worked there that was also caught by surprise and he had a form 4 pending as well. He kept me up to date as much as possible. You should get your item if it’s in process, may just take a while for atf to sort stuff out. I’d keep trying to contact atf. I was eventually contacted by atf and given the days when I could go to shop and pickup my suppressor, it took a while, that I remember. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/23/2024 11:22:34 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Daggertt: If it hasn't been transferred (ie form 4 approved), then it's still in their possession and on their books. But if you have proof of payment, then I'd argue it belongs to you. Ie. Not their property (regardless of who you bought it from. If you bought it from the ffl directly or elsewhere and just transferred it through him, it's the same... The ffl doesn't own it. He's just holding it for you while the transfer is in process, which he charges you to do as a service either explicitly or implied by the transfer fee). If you had signed a gun over to the ffl to sell on consignment, and this happened, it would also not be theirs, despite being in their possession. And the 5th amendment says they can't confiscate your property without compensating you. If the government has your property, I'd argue they owe you for the items if they can't find a way to get them to you. (I'm not a lawyer) This is their stance right now. As you said, it's still on their books and they have no idea how they can transfer it out if they can't do it themselves. This is a nightmare. It seems like I've contacted about everyone I can at this point. I'm not sure when I should consider getting legal involved. Which would suck, because I'll likely spend as much as the items are worth. May not be worth it in that case |
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Posted: 5/23/2024 11:51:38 AM EDT
[#27]
If your property gets listed here: https://www.atf.gov/asset-forfeiture/unclaimed-property
or on forfeiture.gov then you need to timely file a claim showing that you have 100% ownership interest in the items. Then petition the government to affect the transfer or compensate you monetarily. You don't need a lawyer to do this, but they can do so on your behalf if you prefer. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/23/2024 11:54:42 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KitBuilder: If your property gets listed here: https://www.atf.gov/asset-forfeiture/unclaimed-property or on forfeiture.gov then you need to timely file a claim showing that you have 100% ownership interest in the items. Then petition the government to affect the transfer or compensate you monetarily. You don't need a lawyer to do this, but they can do so on your behalf if you prefer. Thank you. The agent told me the forfeiture route only works if the Form 4 has been approved. It will not show up if the forms are pending. I will take a look either way! |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/23/2024 11:55:41 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KitBuilder: If your property gets listed here: https://www.atf.gov/asset-forfeiture/unclaimed-property or on forfeiture.gov then you need to timely file a claim showing that you have 100% ownership interest in the items. Then petition the government to affect the transfer or compensate you monetarily. You don't need a lawyer to do this, but they can do so on your behalf if you prefer. Unfortunately there is nothing from South Florida on that list at all. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/23/2024 2:57:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: LAjamil1]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KitBuilder: If your property gets listed here: https://www.atf.gov/asset-forfeiture/unclaimed-property or on forfeiture.gov then you need to timely file a claim showing that you have 100% ownership interest in the items. Then petition the government to affect the transfer or compensate you monetarily. You don't need a lawyer to do this, but they can do so on your behalf if you prefer. And any idea of what specific agency I would reach out to for the transfer/compensation? I have called ATF more times than I can count and they are steadfast in their response that I will not receive them and there is nothing I can do. How in the world do I escalate this past the local office? |
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Posted: 5/23/2024 3:59:35 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LAjamil1: And any idea of what specific agency I would reach out to for the transfer/compensation? I have called ATF more times than I can count and they are steadfast in their response that I will not receive them and there is nothing I can do. How in the world do I escalate this past the local office? But from what you've indicated, that may never happen. Fortunately I've never had to deal with this type of situation so idk what to advise you. I like @tortilla-flats suggestion of contacting one of your US reps, or senators, and asking their office to contact ATF on your behalf. |
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Posted: 5/23/2024 4:04:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KitBuilder: If it ends up listed there, you should receive instructions in the mail on how to reply. But from what you've indicated, that may never happen. Fortunately I've never had to deal with this type of situation so idk what to advise you. I like @tortilla-flats suggestion of contacting one of your US reps, or senators, and asking their office to contact ATF on your behalf. Yep, that is literally one of the actual jobs they are hired to do. Act on your behalf with other .gov agencies when you're having a problem. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/23/2024 4:58:10 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tortilla-flats: Yep, that is literally one of the actual jobs they are hired to do. Act on your behalf with other .gov agencies when you're having a problem. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tortilla-flats: Originally Posted By KitBuilder: If it ends up listed there, you should receive instructions in the mail on how to reply. But from what you've indicated, that may never happen. Fortunately I've never had to deal with this type of situation so idk what to advise you. I like @tortilla-flats suggestion of contacting one of your US reps, or senators, and asking their office to contact ATF on your behalf. Yep, that is literally one of the actual jobs they are hired to do. Act on your behalf with other .gov agencies when you're having a problem. I have, to both senators and my rep. I don't know if there is much I can do beyond that. If there is something I'm missing I am all ears. Thanks |
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USA
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Posted: 5/23/2024 6:10:50 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tortilla-flats: Yep, that is literally one of the actual jobs they are hired to do. Act on your behalf with other .gov agencies when you're having a problem. I gotta say: I was impressed with the stonewalling and obfuscation ATF gave two Congressmen in my case. Basically ATF told the Congressmen "we aren't going to answer this". In my forfeiture case, ATF ignored Congressional inquires, and didn't finally answer me until *670 days* after their own due date. (How much you want to bet if *I* would have "timely filed" two years after my stuff got seized they would have told me to pound sand? :) Rules for thee but not for me and all that...) I mean, give it a try though. It never hurts to get a congresscritter on your side. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/29/2024 5:06:05 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kel: I gotta say: I was impressed with the stonewalling and obfuscation ATF gave two Congressmen in my case. Basically ATF told the Congressmen "we aren't going to answer this". In my forfeiture case, ATF ignored Congressional inquires, and didn't finally answer me until *670 days* after their own due date. (How much you want to bet if *I* would have "timely filed" two years after my stuff got seized they would have told me to pound sand? :) Rules for thee but not for me and all that...) I mean, give it a try though. It never hurts to get a congresscritter on your side. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kel: Originally Posted By tortilla-flats: Yep, that is literally one of the actual jobs they are hired to do. Act on your behalf with other .gov agencies when you're having a problem. I gotta say: I was impressed with the stonewalling and obfuscation ATF gave two Congressmen in my case. Basically ATF told the Congressmen "we aren't going to answer this". In my forfeiture case, ATF ignored Congressional inquires, and didn't finally answer me until *670 days* after their own due date. (How much you want to bet if *I* would have "timely filed" two years after my stuff got seized they would have told me to pound sand? :) Rules for thee but not for me and all that...) I mean, give it a try though. It never hurts to get a congresscritter on your side. So still no word from NFA, obviously. But I was thinking, what is the process for transferring an NFA item if it is currently registered to a now closed store? The last NFA rep I spoke with, and the local IOI, are saying that because the Form 3's are in the name of the closed shop, there is no way for them to transfer the items to another store or me. Do you, or anyone else here know what the process is for transferring and item when the transferee has gone out of business? Does the ATF do it themselves? |
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Posted: 5/29/2024 6:15:20 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LAjamil1: .....The last NFA rep I spoke with, and the local IOI, are saying that because the Form 3's are in the name of the closed shop, there is no way for them to transfer the items to another store or me. Do you, or anyone else here know what the process is for transferring and item when the transferee has gone out of business? Does the ATF do it themselves? When Shadow Ops went bankrupt, ATF had a local dealer complete the transfers. So it can be done, because it has been done. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 5/30/2024 12:45:16 AM EDT
[#37]
The FFLs pending Form 4s should have been expedited before they went out of business. I’d ask your local field office if the FFL is actually inactive, and if not, the NFA Branch should be able to expedite all pending NFA items due to the circumstances.
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Posted: 5/30/2024 9:24:21 AM EDT
[#38]
I’m pretty sure ATF can do anything they want. My dealer passed away and they let his estate finish up his transfers, including one that I still needed to file on. I had to tell the guy how to fill out the forms.
RIP Steave. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/30/2024 8:24:11 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LAjamil1: So still no word from NFA, obviously. But I was thinking, what is the process for transferring an NFA item if it is currently registered to a now closed store? The last NFA rep I spoke with, and the local IOI, are saying that because the Form 3's are in the name of the closed shop, there is no way for them to transfer the items to another store or me. Do you, or anyone else here know what the process is for transferring and item when the transferee has gone out of business? Does the ATF do it themselves? Normally they work with the FFL to expedite the xfers to the buyers. It seems by reading your posts, the FFL basically said fuck the world and instead of asking ATF for help, did nothing. He then gave up his FFL (by losing his licensed premises), and turned over his inventory after it was no longer legally registered to him and thus contraband. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/31/2024 11:17:03 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RenegadeX: Normally they work with the FFL to expedite the xfers to the buyers. It seems by reading your posts, the FFL basically said fuck the world and instead of asking ATF for help, did nothing. He then gave up his FFL (by losing his licensed premises), and turned over his inventory after it was no longer legally registered to him and thus contraband. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RenegadeX: Originally Posted By LAjamil1: So still no word from NFA, obviously. But I was thinking, what is the process for transferring an NFA item if it is currently registered to a now closed store? The last NFA rep I spoke with, and the local IOI, are saying that because the Form 3's are in the name of the closed shop, there is no way for them to transfer the items to another store or me. Do you, or anyone else here know what the process is for transferring and item when the transferee has gone out of business? Does the ATF do it themselves? Normally they work with the FFL to expedite the xfers to the buyers. It seems by reading your posts, the FFL basically said fuck the world and instead of asking ATF for help, did nothing. He then gave up his FFL (by losing his licensed premises), and turned over his inventory after it was no longer legally registered to him and thus contraband. Yes basically. The FFL SHOULD have asked to expedite the forms but they didn’t. They no longer have a license as they were evicted from their store due to late rent payment. Their business practice and items were sold off to a lawyer, who gave the NFA items to ATF. So what happens now? They are still technically Form 3’d to the store, no forms were expedited and are still pending, and the license is closed. Do I have any hope of recovering them in your opinion?? |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/31/2024 11:18:56 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ScrapMetal762: The FFLs pending Form 4s should have been expedited before they went out of business. I’d ask your local field office if the FFL is actually inactive, and if not, the NFA Branch should be able to expedite all pending NFA items due to the circumstances. The NFA said they could still possibly be approved even without them in business. ATF tells me if I have an approved form I can claim my items through Asset Forfeiture office. But if there’s no license, is that incorrect that NFA will approve them even if here out of business? |
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Posted: 5/31/2024 11:37:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Missilegeek]
[#42]
I agree with Daggert that what they are doing is unlawful seizure of your property. It's unconstitutional.
Are you a member of GOA or FPC or any other gun rights organization? If so, perhaps you can contact them and ask for assistance. I would research the requirements for filing a lawsuit at your local federal district court. It's not that hard and there are self help websites and clerks available to guide you through the process. I would think that serving them with a fed lawsuit might get their attention and clear some things up pretty quickly. If not, they can explain it to the judge. Edit it's almost certainly not worth it to hire a $400-$500 per hour lawyer. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/1/2024 12:08:02 AM EDT
[#43]
They’re probably stonewalling because your stuff has either been destroyed, taken by agents, or sent off to Ukraine. This is tough to swallow but happens every day with guns and stuff LE confiscates. Legal action is probably your only bet, or just bug the crap out of them enough but it may just make them go after you.
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USA
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Posted: 6/1/2024 12:20:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: kel]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LAjamil1: Their business practice and items were sold off to a lawyer, who gave the NFA items to ATF. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LAjamil1: Their business practice and items were sold off to a lawyer, who gave the NFA items to ATF. Did you talk to the lawyer? He may still have the ability to direct transfers of them if he's the new owner of the business. Find out if he turned them over to the ATF via a 3400.1 "Consent to Forfeiture or Destruction of Property" form. Arguably an act of theft / conversion to give to ATF for destruction something that wasn't his to give. "Knowingly depriving someone of their property" is theft in my state, and I used that in my court case to try and get my NFA items back in a similar situation. Originally Posted By RenegadeX: It seems by reading your posts, the FFL basically said fuck the world and instead of asking ATF for help, did nothing. He then gave up his FFL (by losing his licensed premises), and turned over his inventory after it was no longer legally registered to him and thus contraband. That's *exactly* what a dealer did to me. Said screw you to all his clients, stopped paying his FFL/SOT and lease, went out of business with our stuff in his inventory, wouldn't sign transfer forms out of spite, surrendered his client's NFA stuff to ATF for destruction, and then skipped bail on his arrest. Made it easy to sue him in small claims court, but hard to collect on the judgement as he's a destitute fugitive. :D |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/3/2024 1:00:29 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnnyLoco: They’re probably stonewalling because your stuff has either been destroyed, taken by agents, or sent off to Ukraine. This is tough to swallow but happens every day with guns and stuff LE confiscates. Legal action is probably your only bet, or just bug the crap out of them enough but it may just make them go after you. I know that they are currently in possession of them, that’s the crazy thing. The IOI told me point blank he accounted for them while repossessing the items. Furthermore, I’ve spoken to another person who was a customer of theirs, but he has been told he will be allowed to claim his items because his Form 4 was approved. He was directed to file a claim with Asset Forfeiture to get his suppressor, however they informed him it will likely be a few months as they inventory everything. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/3/2024 1:02:13 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: I agree with Daggert that what they are doing is unlawful seizure of your property. It's unconstitutional. Are you a member of GOA or FPC or any other gun rights organization? If so, perhaps you can contact them and ask for assistance. I would research the requirements for filing a lawsuit at your local federal district court. It's not that hard and there are self help websites and clerks available to guide you through the process. I would think that serving them with a fed lawsuit might get their attention and clear some things up pretty quickly. If not, they can explain it to the judge. Edit it's almost certainly not worth it to hire a $400-$500 per hour lawyer. I unfortunately came to the same conclusion. I do, however, have friends in legal and could likely get them to write a letter or two at no cost. But litigation would be a different story. Can you elaborate on how to file something against the fed? Appreciate your input! |
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Posted: 6/3/2024 2:52:20 PM EDT
[#47]
This is for my federal district, but find yours (FL has 2) and read up on it.
https://www.laed.uscourts.gov/filing-without-attorney-pro-se |
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Posted: 6/3/2024 6:46:53 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KitBuilder: This is for my federal district, but find yours (FL has 2) and read up on it. https://www.laed.uscourts.gov/filing-without-attorney-pro-se This. Start with the website for your local district court. Read all the self help stuff. Give them a call and if possible go down there and meet the people who would be processing your paperwork. Step 1. Understand the process for initiating a lawsuit Step 2. Draft a simple lawsuit. Step 3. Properly serve the lawsuit to the atf They will have to respond, or they automatically lose. My guess is rather than deal with it and the legal fees, they will figure out a way to get it done and just give you your stuff. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/4/2024 5:43:18 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: This. Start with the website for your local district court. Read all the self help stuff. Give them a call and if possible go down there and meet the people who would be processing your paperwork. Step 1. Understand the process for initiating a lawsuit Step 2. Draft a simple lawsuit. Step 3. Properly serve the lawsuit to the atf They will have to respond, or they automatically lose. My guess is rather than deal with it and the legal fees, they will figure out a way to get it done and just give you your stuff. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By KitBuilder: This is for my federal district, but find yours (FL has 2) and read up on it. https://www.laed.uscourts.gov/filing-without-attorney-pro-se This. Start with the website for your local district court. Read all the self help stuff. Give them a call and if possible go down there and meet the people who would be processing your paperwork. Step 1. Understand the process for initiating a lawsuit Step 2. Draft a simple lawsuit. Step 3. Properly serve the lawsuit to the atf They will have to respond, or they automatically lose. My guess is rather than deal with it and the legal fees, they will figure out a way to get it done and just give you your stuff. Well, change of plans here. I just received my approved Form 4's from NFA! I assume this means I will be able to claim my cans through the asset forfeiture process? I don't think I am out of the woods yet, but I would assume having my approved forms would mean they can't destroy/discard my property at this point right? |
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Posted: 6/4/2024 5:48:47 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LAjamil1: Well, change of plans here. I just received my approved Form 4's from NFA! I assume this means I will be able to claim my cans through the asset forfeiture process? I don't think I am out of the woods yet, but I would assume having my approved forms would mean they can't destroy/discard my property at this point right? I would like to hear ATF's response when you tell them you have the stamps. |
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