Armory Sponsor
Posted: 5/26/2020 6:31:37 PM EDT
|
If I were to buy a ATPIAL-C, how difficult are they to disassemble? I've made several class IIIb and IV handheld hobby lasers. My primary engineering job involves lasers. Assuming I know what I'm doing from the diode/electronics side of things, what would be stopping me from getting an ATPIAL-C and replacing the illuminator diode with something much more powerful? Assuming the base units are literally pulled off the same assembly line as full power PEQ-15, as advertised, the optics and coatings should all be the same. I would imagine they just use lower powered diodes (likely small TO-18 sized diodes) and maybe a different control board to handle the higher currents. But honestly, SMD components are so cheap they might even be the same control boards inside with a modified selector and/or high power potentiometers dialed down. Worst case would be needing to tap into the power and stuff a tiny laser driver in there somewhere. I wouldn't know until I opened one up... Which brings me to my point ... how hard are these to take apart and tinker with? Are they fully potted? I really don't want to throw hundreds of $ down the drain and brick the thing. |
|
Quoted: If I were to buy a ATPIAL-C, how difficult are they to disassemble? I've made several class IIIb and IV handheld hobby lasers. My primary engineering job involves lasers. Assuming I know what I'm doing from the diode/electronics side of things, what would be stopping me from getting an ATPIAL-C and replacing the illuminator diode with something much more powerful? Assuming the base units are literally pulled off the same assembly line as full power PEQ-15, as advertised, the optics and coatings should all be the same. I would imagine they just use lower powered diodes (likely small TO-18 sized diodes) and maybe a different control board to handle the higher currents. But honestly, SMD components are so cheap they might even be the same control boards inside with a modified selector and/or high power potentiometers dialed down. Worst case would be needing to tap into the power and stuff a tiny laser driver in there somewhere. I wouldn't know until I opened one up... Which brings me to my point ... how hard are these to take apart and tinker with? Are they fully potted? I really don't want to throw hundreds of $ down the drain and brick the thing. There is a lot of glue inside, but no one is going to stop you. |
|
Quoted: 1) don’t. 2) the laser output is controlled by software, not a different diode. The ATPIAL-C is exactly the same as the PEQ-15, there’s just a digital governor programmed into the control module on the circuit board. While that is correct, you do have to replace a few parts to make the Illuminator adjustable. OP, assuming you know what you are doing and you can even get the parts, I think you will find it doesn’t make sense to do it financially. Keep in mind as someone said previously, there is a lot of epoxy in there to prevent tampering and reverse engineering. I wouldn’t recommend trying to take it apart. |
| Came across an ebay listing a while back of someone selling the parts, with each individual components laid out. Not exactly sure how they were able to remove the epoxy from the components. Managed to grab a couple screen shot of it, doesn't look to be airsoft. Not sure if it's safe to post the photos as the listing was taken down. |
|
^^ This. I'd love to see more information on reprogramming them. I think I could even deal with a fixed illumination if I could have more power and the ability to program it to full power and tune it back. Maybe something similar to a diesel truck programmer. Throw it on when you want to pull your trailer and daily drive, take it off if you have to send it in for repairs haha. There is definitely a market for a 'programmer'. If the programmer would theoretically need to use the Steiner Y-cable adapter, then it only has two terminals. As far as I know, that only allows the circuit to be open or closed. Thus, it makes me think that there is some sort of time delayed logic if programming where capable. Maybe someone could take this information and do some testing. Could there be an extra terminal inside the ATPIAL that allows for programming that the standard Steiner Y-cable doesn't contact? Just some ideas... OP, another member took apart a DBAL A3 and took some good pictures of the insides. LINK HERE. I would assume the ATPIALs and DBALs are internally similar. Everything is potted and appears difficult to modify. We're chasing a unicorn here... but it's one that I think is worth chasing EDIT: The PEQs are not potted. See tlandoe07's post below |
|
From the pics in the other thread, it just looks like they standard drivers, the small PCBs. If you could get voltage and amp reading, you could probably change the drivers, there are plenty of adjustable drivers out there for lasers and leds. You could probably bump up the laser and the led power in it with a new driver, but we have no idea what they could handle before failure. Might be 10 % with no demand cycle change, could be 50% with a 1 and 1 demand cycle for all we know. Edit there are ways to remove epoxy, its not even that hard. Epoxy does not like heat, even 110 degrees softens it a lot. A simple heat gun and dental pic could remove the epoxy I saw on that other thread. Now we wont even get in to soda blasting with a micro blaster, like what is used to etch glass. |
|
I repaired a simple problem with a holosun LS321G, the L3 style plug socket threads in and I managed to unscrew it by rotating a very tight surefire tape switch lead while plugged in. When it unscrewed it tore/sheared the two small leads that were soldered to it internally. Was about to leave for a trip and couldn't wait so I repaired it myself. Unit had a single pcb at rear that managed everything. It was conformally coated and so was everything it interacted with. I had to heat the plugs solder area to remove the potting with an exacto The laser modules appeared to also be epoxied in as well. |
|
They are not potted on the inside. Only a specific model was, which was to make it withstand heavy machine gun recoil. That’s a very obscure version of the LA5 though, and I’ve only personally seen one example in real life. Those versions are noticeably heavier than a regular Peq15 or LA5. Regular LA5s and PEQ-15s are just sealed along the edges with epoxy, and also the screw caps are filled with epoxy as well. You don’t necessarily have to destroy the thing to get inside, but you do have to take your time, use heat, and be very careful. And I’m not entirely sure how well it will go back together when you’re done. Still a moot point though since changing laser diodes and drivers will do absolutely nothing without programming the firmware to actually work with it. It’s a digitally controlled, programmable unit, like most L3 products- it’s not analog. Attached File |
|
I could be and am probably wrong, but a system like the one in the attached thread is a little different than the Ted just posted. The one in the other thread, looked like standard drivers, they control all the power levels. the control board I would bet is a fancy switch that send power to the drivers, the drivers do the regulation of power level. Now I would also bet newer fancier systems use integrated drivers that maybe processor controlled. |
|
@tlandoe07 Great picture! Inside the housing clearly shows it is completely differently than the Steiners. It also shows the connector only has two terminals, but like you said, since it's not analog, reprogramming would be difficult without being able to communicate to it. You obviously have lots of experience here and I certainly appreciate the information provided! |
|
Quoted: They are not potted on the inside. Only a specific model was, which was to make it withstand heavy machine gun recoil. That’s a very obscure version of the LA5 though, and I’ve only personally seen one example in real life. Those versions are noticeably heavier than a regular Peq15 or LA5. Regular LA5s and PEQ-15s are just sealed along the edges with epoxy, and also the screw caps are filled with epoxy as well. You don’t necessarily have to destroy the thing to get inside, but you do have to take your time, use heat, and be very careful. And I’m not entirely sure how well it will go back together when you’re done. Still a moot point though since changing laser diodes and drivers will do absolutely nothing without programming the firmware to actually work with it. It’s a digitally controlled, programmable unit, like most L3 products- it’s not analog. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/460535/BC45FA20-737B-43FA-80BD-A9A7D9DA4AA0_jpe-1434631.JPG Is it possible the full power modes are software controlled but that software restriction happens by a physical circuit? Ie, population of a set of contacts with a resistor enables or disables the software setting for full power. Some companies do this so they only maintain a single code base and single PCB design to make long term maintenance of a design cheaper., Their pick and place machines can be told to build either by simply adding or omitting a single passive component during assembly. L3 may have gone separate firmwares for each tho. If it was as simple as a solder bridge or comparing a 3b and 3r board to find the added passive-- someone probably would have done so. If the top of the chip wasnt sanded off it wouldnt be too hard to find the data sheet for it and what types of programming interfaces it supports. It kind of looks like theres a set of test pads or programming interface header near the illum module Edit, aren't there other differences? I seem to be seeing people say the civilian version doesnt allow illumination focus? The lense system is fixed? |
|
Quoted: @tlandoe07 Great picture! Inside the housing clearly shows it is completely differently than the Steiners. It also shows the connector only has two terminals, but like you said, since it's not analog, reprogramming would be difficult without being able to communicate to it. You obviously have lots of experience here and I certainly appreciate the information provided! Someone very software-savvy could probably create a program to get into it, but that’s so far beyond my level of intelligence I would never attempt. I do know that they are programmed through the remote switch port, you don’t actually have to break the unit open to reprogram anything. That’s about all I know on that though. I’ve only had them open to repair hardware, everything I’ve mentioned about software is either what I understand from talking to guys who work on them at the factory, or what I’ve observed by studying the components while I’ve had one open. You’d have to figure out how to basically modify a remote pressure switch to transfer data to the control board, but who knows if you program it through a data-transfer, or if there’s a simple binary code you just flash into it. Who knows. This is all purely speculative and educational though. I don’t recommend messing with one, or attempting to modify. You’ll probably be unsuccessful, you will absolutely void the warranty, and you might be breaking the law. |
|
Quoted: Someone very software-savvy could probably create a program to get into it, but that’s so far beyond my level of intelligence I would never attempt. I do know that they are programmed through the remote switch port, you don’t actually have to break the unit open to reprogram anything. That’s about all I know on that though. I’ve only had them open to repair hardware, everything I’ve mentioned about software is either what I understand from talking to guys who work on them at the factory, or what I’ve observed by studying the components while I’ve had one open. You’d have to figure out how to basically modify a remote pressure switch to transfer data to the control board, but who knows if you program it through a data-transfer, or if there’s a simple binary code you just flash into it. Who knows. This is all purely speculative and educational though. I don’t recommend messing with one, or attempting to modify. You’ll probably be unsuccessful, you will absolutely void the warranty, and you might be breaking the law. Quoted: Quoted: @tlandoe07 Great picture! Inside the housing clearly shows it is completely differently than the Steiners. It also shows the connector only has two terminals, but like you said, since it's not analog, reprogramming would be difficult without being able to communicate to it. You obviously have lots of experience here and I certainly appreciate the information provided! Someone very software-savvy could probably create a program to get into it, but that’s so far beyond my level of intelligence I would never attempt. I do know that they are programmed through the remote switch port, you don’t actually have to break the unit open to reprogram anything. That’s about all I know on that though. I’ve only had them open to repair hardware, everything I’ve mentioned about software is either what I understand from talking to guys who work on them at the factory, or what I’ve observed by studying the components while I’ve had one open. You’d have to figure out how to basically modify a remote pressure switch to transfer data to the control board, but who knows if you program it through a data-transfer, or if there’s a simple binary code you just flash into it. Who knows. This is all purely speculative and educational though. I don’t recommend messing with one, or attempting to modify. You’ll probably be unsuccessful, you will absolutely void the warranty, and you might be breaking the law. So depending on how hard L3 tried, it could be even easier. First thing I'd check is a component level comparison between both models. Mostly looking for stuff present on one but not the other that could be how the software knows to be one model or the other. This is common because it's cheap. If that yielded nothing I'd measure all the resistors looking for any differences. Sometimes companies are extremely lazy/cheap and dont even want to change the pick and place machine config, so they just load in a tray of resistors of a certain value for the appropriate model. Lastly I'd check any IC I can on the board for model #s and look for anything that resembles a JTAG header. Pads labeled things like TCLK stand out and sometimes boards like these are programmed assembled. If it's not a passive component doing the configuration between models, its likely totally separate firmwares. The civilian version might not even have the code in it to recognize the high power switch settings. If the chip wasnt sanded to obfuscate its model I'd simply grab the data sheet to get what interface I need to program it and the pins. I'd then dump the full power and civilian models firmwares. A simple hash will tell you if they are identical and you missed something hardware. If theyaren't, I'd verify the chips data sheet doesnt have any configuration registers that block rewriting it. Iif so, i'd then flash the full power firmware over the civi. This is all educational... of course Edit, I just noticed you said the remote switch port is how the factory debugs/programs it. Theres only two contacts in there, it's likely a TWI interface. Maybe I2C. That's a pretty easy to explore interface and see what's on the other end, but it may also require doing something physically on the device to put it in a mode that enables it. |
|
Quoted: 1) don’t. 2) the laser output is controlled by software, not a different diode. The ATPIAL-C is exactly the same as the PEQ-15, there’s just a digital governor programmed into the control module on the circuit board. 2) Digital, huh? That's a bummer. I would have figured the control board/logic just directed power to one of several small drivers slaved to each diode; visible aiming, IR aiming, & IR iluminator. I've made a dual powered pointer before by having a small control board change the driver resistance network. I was hoping the ATPIAL did this, as it's pretty simple and reliable. Quoted: Pretty much made impervious to being reverse engineered Luckily, I don't need to reverse engineer it. Just exploit it. Quoted: Not as easy as adding a pneumatic switch, solenoid and a LPR onto an X-Valve if your the same Pneumagger from AGD.  Quoted: I think I'm the only dude who likes his civi powered laser  Quoted: I used citristrip to get spray paint off mine. I came back and the shell was literally gone. Completely melted. It’s like I just set $1,300 on fire, and I didn’t even get to watch it burn. The point? The inside did not look simple.   Quoted: They are not potted on the inside. Only a specific model was, which was to make it withstand heavy machine gun recoil. That’s a very obscure version of the LA5 though, and I’ve only personally seen one example in real life. Those versions are noticeably heavier than a regular Peq15 or LA5. Regular LA5s and PEQ-15s are just sealed along the edges with epoxy, and also the screw caps are filled with epoxy as well. You don’t necessarily have to destroy the thing to get inside, but you do have to take your time, use heat, and be very careful. And I’m not entirely sure how well it will go back together when you’re done. Still a moot point though since changing laser diodes and drivers will do absolutely nothing without programming the firmware to actually work with it. It’s a digitally controlled, programmable unit, like most L3 products- it’s not analog. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/460535/BC45FA20-737B-43FA-80BD-A9A7D9DA4AA0_jpe-1434631.JPG a) Reprogram. Likely incredibly difficult without knowing the source code and system diagrams and only works if the actual LD and driver hardware (ie: current regulator and regulation control resistors) are truly the same spec as the full power version. b) Hardware swap. Find the critical components on the power control board (regulator control resistors and laser diode) and physically swap them out. The software controlling the components won't know the difference. This actually wouldn't be difficult but might have a steep (costly) learning curve. c) Bypass. Tt looks there might be room to stick a small $30 driver in there, to completely bypass the OEM circuitry, too. The primary power wires are exposed (to get power to your new illuminator driver) and the delivery wires to the illuminator diode are exposed ... personally, I'd take the original LD power delivery wires and wire them into the new mini driver's TTL control port and rewire the diode to the new driver output. TTL control is basically a signal control; when the driver sees the TTL signal turn on (typically a low voltage/power signal), it fires the primary power loop. When the ATPIAL thinks it's firing the illuminator LD, it's actually telling the new driver board (via TTL) to fire. The original board and software wouldn't know the difference and the LD would see full power from the new driver. The fly in the ointment for all of these is whether or not the diode is actually the same in both units. I would suggest that testing an full power ATPIAL and ATPIAL-C side by side for frequency and divergence comparison would be a good indicator. Either way, swapping in a new more powerful LD (or even OOB LD  ) doesn't look like it would be impossible either.edit: heck, maybe it's as easy as option D... it's just nerfed somewhere with a jumper or something. I could see this being the case, although you'd need to be able to compare a full power unit side by side with a civilian one and have the stones to disassemble both. 
|
|
Quoted: what about buying a airsoft unit and cracking it open and making one yourself by chaining out the diodes? I'm pretty sure the airsoft ones don't have actual laser designators - just LED flashlights or illuminators. And I'll bet one wouldn't hold zero either. |
|
Quoted: I'm pretty sure the airsoft ones don't have actual laser designators - just LED flashlights or illuminators. And I'll bet one wouldn't hold zero either. I have a airsoft one I bought just to look, its dual ir and red laser ( slaved but not very aligned ) and white light with an ir filter. |
|
Quoted: Came across an ebay listing a while back of someone selling the parts, with each individual components laid out. Not exactly sure how they were able to remove the epoxy from the components. Managed to grab a couple screen shot of it, doesn't look to be airsoft. Not sure if it's safe to post the photos as the listing was taken down. @Chaozx15 Can you post pics? I’d love to enable adjustable Illuminator on my ATPIAL-C. |
|
Quoted: I think Im the only dude who likes his civi powered laser Quoted: I think Im the only dude who likes his civi powered laser Quoted: While that is correct, you do have to replace a few parts to make the Illuminator adjustable. OP, assuming you know what you are doing and you can even get the parts, I think you will find it doesn’t make sense to do it financially. Keep in mind as someone said previously, there is a lot of epoxy in there to prevent tampering and reverse engineering. I wouldn’t recommend trying to take it apart. The atpial c sucks mainly bcus of fixed focus. My civ i2 is just as useable as my full power i2 inside 75y. I habe two peqs that open up. Its fairly simple inside. |
|
Very cool pic! Might get braver and open mine up someday. The innards look different than what I'd expect. Was also a bit surprised there's a 5V boost converter in there for running everything on the board. The CR123A goes straight into the boost converter whenever the switch is moved anywhere but off. Would assume the LD is the same between the low and high power models. Gutting the OEM board and putting in a couple LD drivers in there going straight off the switch would be doable. There's plenty of room in there. |
|
Quoted: ^^ This. I'd love to see more information on reprogramming them. I think I could even deal with a fixed illumination if I could have more power and the ability to program it to full power and tune it back. Maybe something similar to a diesel truck programmer. Throw it on when you want to pull your trailer and daily drive, take it off if you have to send it in for repairs haha. There is definitely a market for a 'programmer'. If the programmer would theoretically need to use the Steiner Y-cable adapter, then it only has two terminals. As far as I know, that only allows the circuit to be open or closed. Thus, it makes me think that there is some sort of time delayed logic if programming where capable. Maybe someone could take this information and do some testing. Could there be an extra terminal inside the ATPIAL that allows for programming that the standard Steiner Y-cable doesn't contact? Just some ideas... OP, another member took apart a DBAL A3 and took some good pictures of the insides. LINK HERE. I would assume the ATPIALs and DBALs are internally similar. Everything is potted and appears difficult to modify. We're chasing a unicorn here... but it's one that I think is worth chasing EDIT: The PEQs are not potted. See tlandoe07's post below I agree that there wouldbe a market for a “programmer” pretty much every person that bought the shitty c version. Put me down for two |
|
Quoted: If OP can pull this off he can quit his day job and just hack atpials for the rest of his life. I personally would buy one and send it off to have it "bro-peq'd" to have a legit laser if proven to work. I think I just invented a word....  Why not just buy a grey market peq? Not like the atpial would have a warranty after that. And it still wouldnt have a focusable illuminator which would suck. |
|
Quoted: Id love it if they could update some of the c models. But theyd still not be peq15s. And at least in the past grey market peqs werent that far off in price. Market has gone crazy lately I would be happy with just better illuminator output. Even with it fixed it would be an improvement. The laser isn’t lacking anything for my uses. |
Armory Sponsor