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TN, USA
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Posted: 7/15/2023 7:04:37 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fastcycle: And by the way, the fixed stock buffer tube is actually 1/8th an inch longer than he notched buffer tube. I tried a Mesa Tactical stock but the tube as too long, could not tighten it up and the two tubes were different lengths……..what a PITA. Did you get yours together and shooting yet? Collapsible stock installed? I was one of the lucky ones and had the notched tube under the fixed stock. Adjustable stock went right on. Of course it was the Panzer Adjustable stock. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 7/15/2023 11:18:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: BorderDave]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fastcycle: And by the way, the fixed stock buffer tube is actually 1/8th an inch longer than he notched buffer tube. I tried a Mesa Tactical stock but the tube as too long, could not tighten it up and the two tubes were different lengths……..what a PITA. Very strange. I didn’t have any problem installing a Mesa Tactical Urbino stock on my Panzer M4 that originally came with a fixed stock (not skeleton) and non-notched tube. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 7/18/2023 12:08:01 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cherenkov: Here is a pic. https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-3vxd7ju6xz/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/377/1229/MAC_21000155_Right__32097.1687274536.jpg?c=1 If this forum had a like button, I would like this. Looks very cool. |
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Posted: 7/18/2023 1:34:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: Capt_Destro]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tiribulus: If this forum had a like button, I would like this. Looks very cool. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tiribulus: Originally Posted By cherenkov: Here is a pic. https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-3vxd7ju6xz/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/377/1229/MAC_21000155_Right__32097.1687274536.jpg?c=1 If this forum had a like button, I would like this. Looks very cool. Looks like the black aces one for sure. Wonder if it's made by AKSA. Black Aces is a shitty importer, never got my replacement stock (original was cracked) SDS has been great on the other hand |
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Posted: 7/25/2023 11:17:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: Missilegeek]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dltrevino02: I bit on this deal as well and got the black one. It's a nice shotgun but I immediately noticed that it's lighter than my TAC-12, and that the bolt cycles extremely smooth and with very little effort (with my pinky). The TAC-12 bolt takes at least three times more force to cycle, so I'm assuming the recoil buffer spring must be lighter in the Black Aces (AKSA). Shot both this past weekend and they cycled everything from cheap walmart stuff to buckshot. The black aces does recoil a little harder than the TAC-12. One note, when I got the AKSA I stripped it down and noticed that the argo system was full of a jelly like cosmoline substance. I cleaned it off as well as I could. Even so, after using the shotgun, I could tell that one of the pistons was not moving freely (after two boxes of ammo). I disassembled and sure enough, the piston was not moving freely. After another more aggressive cleaning of the entire ARGO system with carb cleaner and hoppes 9 everything moves nice and easy with just gravity. I strongly recommend cleaning all that gunk out or it could cause issues down the road. Other than that, great and inexpensive shotgun. For the price, it can't be beat. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dltrevino02: Originally Posted By Sarge1400: Black Aces Tactical Pro S4 - black - $349.99 at PSA Black Aces Tactical Pro S4 - black/FDE - $349.99 at PSA I was kinda wanting the Panzer M4, but this deal was too good to pass up. Ordered the black/FDE. I bit on this deal as well and got the black one. It's a nice shotgun but I immediately noticed that it's lighter than my TAC-12, and that the bolt cycles extremely smooth and with very little effort (with my pinky). The TAC-12 bolt takes at least three times more force to cycle, so I'm assuming the recoil buffer spring must be lighter in the Black Aces (AKSA). Shot both this past weekend and they cycled everything from cheap walmart stuff to buckshot. The black aces does recoil a little harder than the TAC-12. One note, when I got the AKSA I stripped it down and noticed that the argo system was full of a jelly like cosmoline substance. I cleaned it off as well as I could. Even so, after using the shotgun, I could tell that one of the pistons was not moving freely (after two boxes of ammo). I disassembled and sure enough, the piston was not moving freely. After another more aggressive cleaning of the entire ARGO system with carb cleaner and hoppes 9 everything moves nice and easy with just gravity. I strongly recommend cleaning all that gunk out or it could cause issues down the road. Other than that, great and inexpensive shotgun. For the price, it can't be beat. @dltrevino02 @Sarge1400 Any updates on the performance or issues from anyone who bought the Black Aces? I've seen quite a few positive initial range trips, but nothing beyond that. |
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Posted: 7/28/2023 7:03:26 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: @dltrevino02 @Sarge1400 Any updates on the performance or issues from anyone who bought the Black Aces? I've seen quite a few positive initial range trips, but nothing beyond that. Mine is still ticking and I bring it along for range trips every week or so and dump a few boxes of crap target loads and some buckshot - but don't use as many rounds as I do for my VR80 SBS. I clean it every time, nothing looks broke - I was lucky that mine had a stock issue and Black Aces fixed it ASAP, but maybe they ran out of them. Not sure I trust my life with it over a pump but so far no "apparent" problems. At the price point I'm happy I wouldn't say I trust it with my life, but its more of a range fun gun to me. Perhaps its me being an old schooler - but it almost seems too light weight to take a beating forever. Some how I suspect my Remington model 11 made in 1916 will outlive it. |
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Posted: 7/28/2023 9:22:54 AM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cherenkov: Mine is still ticking and I bring it along for range trips every week or so and dump a few boxes of crap target loads and some buckshot - but don't use as many rounds as I do for my VR80 SBS. I clean it every time, nothing looks broke - I was lucky that mine had a stock issue and Black Aces fixed it ASAP, but maybe they ran out of them. Not sure I trust my life with it over a pump but so far no "apparent" problems. At the price point I'm happy I wouldn't say I trust it with my life, but its more of a range fun gun to me. Perhaps its me being an old schooler - but it almost seems too light weight to take a beating forever. Some how I suspect my Remington model 11 made in 1916 will outlive it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cherenkov: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: @dltrevino02 @Sarge1400 Any updates on the performance or issues from anyone who bought the Black Aces? I've seen quite a few positive initial range trips, but nothing beyond that. Mine is still ticking and I bring it along for range trips every week or so and dump a few boxes of crap target loads and some buckshot - but don't use as many rounds as I do for my VR80 SBS. I clean it every time, nothing looks broke - I was lucky that mine had a stock issue and Black Aces fixed it ASAP, but maybe they ran out of them. Not sure I trust my life with it over a pump but so far no "apparent" problems. At the price point I'm happy I wouldn't say I trust it with my life, but its more of a range fun gun to me. Perhaps its me being an old schooler - but it almost seems too light weight to take a beating forever. Some how I suspect my Remington model 11 made in 1916 will outlive it. Thanks for the feedback. It's about 6X cheaper than the Benelli, so I figured there was some drawbacks. Still sounds fairly reliable and like a pretty good buy. |
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Posted: 7/28/2023 6:06:34 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: Thanks for the feedback. It's about 6X cheaper than the Benelli, so I figured there was some drawbacks. Still sounds fairly reliable and like a pretty good buy. Yes - the only issue I had was the walnut stock had a crack which Black Aces replaced - But others say they haven't replaced theirs. I would think a synthetic might be better for durability as the Walnut may be a weak point - although it looks great |
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Posted: 7/28/2023 6:16:59 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cherenkov: Yes - the only issue I had was the walnut stock had a crack which Black Aces replaced - But others say they haven't replaced theirs. I would think a synthetic might be better for durability as the Walnut may be a weak point - although it looks great Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cherenkov: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Thanks for the feedback. It's about 6X cheaper than the Benelli, so I figured there was some drawbacks. Still sounds fairly reliable and like a pretty good buy. Yes - the only issue I had was the walnut stock had a crack which Black Aces replaced - But others say they haven't replaced theirs. I would think a synthetic might be better for durability as the Walnut may be a weak point - although it looks great I'm definitely going with the fudd stock. They look great IMO. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 7/29/2023 3:43:24 PM EST
[#10]
Anybody do the Shooting Sight hammer replacement on the Panzer M4?
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Posted: 7/30/2023 11:59:41 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: I'm definitely going with the fudd stock. They look great IMO. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By cherenkov: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Thanks for the feedback. It's about 6X cheaper than the Benelli, so I figured there was some drawbacks. Still sounds fairly reliable and like a pretty good buy. Yes - the only issue I had was the walnut stock had a crack which Black Aces replaced - But others say they haven't replaced theirs. I would think a synthetic might be better for durability as the Walnut may be a weak point - although it looks great I'm definitely going with the fudd stock. They look great IMO. I picked up a synthetic handguard and field stock for under $70. I suspect they came off a Panzer M4. Grabbed it from ebay. Keep in mind you will need a different buffer tube. The walnut one is proprietary. The 5 position tube being sold for $40 on classic firearms works with the field stock |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 7/31/2023 9:38:33 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: I'm definitely going with the fudd stock. They look great IMO. I love the look of them, but a straight stock on the M4 kinda sucks. Safety and trigger reach are really designed around a proper pistol grip, and the Mesa is just right for LOP. |
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Posted: 7/31/2023 9:08:36 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rb889: I love the look of them, but a straight stock on the M4 kinda sucks. Safety and trigger reach are really designed around a proper pistol grip, and the Mesa is just right for LOP. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rb889: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: I'm definitely going with the fudd stock. They look great IMO. I love the look of them, but a straight stock on the M4 kinda sucks. Safety and trigger reach are really designed around a proper pistol grip, and the Mesa is just right for LOP. I've shot one. I liked it a lot. |
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Posted: 7/31/2023 11:09:45 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rb889: I love the look of them, but a straight stock on the M4 kinda sucks. Safety and trigger reach are really designed around a proper pistol grip, and the Mesa is just right for LOP. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rb889: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: I'm definitely going with the fudd stock. They look great IMO. I love the look of them, but a straight stock on the M4 kinda sucks. Safety and trigger reach are really designed around a proper pistol grip, and the Mesa is just right for LOP. Didn't feel too bad to me honestly. But everyones built different. |
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Posted: 8/2/2023 10:35:16 AM EST
[#15]
Just shot my 1301 tactical against my friends panzer M4.
M4 was softer shooting with 2.75 #6 and 3" 00 buck. 1301 is now up for sale....lol |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 8/2/2023 11:08:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: Tiribulus]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jeremy2171: Just shot my 1301 tactical against my friends panzer M4. M4 was softer shooting with 2.75 #6 and 3" 00 buck. 1301 is now up for sale....lol It does not immediately jump out at you that the Panzer is obviously the inferior shotgun like is the case with many offshore clone firearms. The Benelli is "better." I sure hope so for 4 times the money. However, it is not ALOT better. Off the shelf/outta the box fit and finish is a BIT more refined, but not 1500 dollars worth. Nor for me anyway. The Panzer is decidedly not a chintzy gun. I now have around 500 rounds of hot buckshot and slugs through it and it shows no signs of trouble anywhere. Inside or out. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 8/5/2023 9:01:37 AM EST
[#17]
I got my adjustable stock on, works nice. I think I like that better than the Mesa Tactical now that it is in place. Wife and I are dealing with some serious medical issues so no shooting yet but when things stabilize in about two more months, I have 400 rounds of 1400fps buck shot to run so I’ll know fairly quickly if it has any issues. Some things suck as you get older, but it beats the alternative!
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MI, USA
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:45:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: Tiribulus]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fastcycle: Anybody do the Shooting Sight hammer replacement on the Panzer M4? EDIT: Oh you mean THIS |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 8/5/2023 4:54:03 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryRight, for 922r with the adjustable stock….. need that one more piece…. Wonder about a drop in fit….. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 5:05:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: EzGoingKev]
[#20]
I installed a Shooting Sight hammer into a Toros T4 housing back in 2020. I had to open the housing up slightly using a file. The Shooting Sight trigger was slightly thicker than the Toros part. It also hung up on the disconnector so I filed the edge of that slightly until it released without any issues.
I did discuss the hammer being thicker than the OE part with the owner of Shooting Sight. He informed me that he had done a batch of hammers that were slightly thicker than the Benelli hammers to take up the slack in the housings. There are multiple threads across multiple forums about how Benelli's tolerances on the triggers are all over the place. Last year I installed a Shooting Sight hammer into an ANS housing. It dropped right in. No mods needed at all. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 8/6/2023 4:17:53 PM EST
[#21]
Do these guns have choke tubes, or fixed cylinder bore or what?
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Posted: 8/6/2023 4:22:55 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By manowar669: Do these guns have choke tubes, or fixed cylinder bore or what? My Toros T4 had a threaded barrel and came with 3 or 4 chokes. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 8/6/2023 9:32:58 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By manowar669: Do these guns have choke tubes, or fixed cylinder bore or what? Panzer M4 had choke tubes |
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Posted: 8/7/2023 9:15:17 AM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By manowar669: Do these guns have choke tubes, or fixed cylinder bore or what? |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 8/7/2023 2:14:03 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AT7WE2: All of the Benelli M4 "clones" I've seen, including my AKSA S4, follow the Benelli design and utilize screw-in chokes and are compatible with any choke that is also compatible with an authentic Benelli M4. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 7:44:58 PM EST
[#26]
Does anyone know anything about the Gforce GF1X PSA has on sale?
PSA I've been trying to decide between a Black Aces or paying $100 more for a Panzer. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 8/14/2023 9:12:38 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Does anyone know anything about the Gforce GF1X PSA has on sale? PSA I've been trying to decide between a Black Aces or paying $100 more for a Panzer. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 10:21:20 AM EST
[#28]
Keeping this thread alive... Thinking of burning some disposable income, and I'm torn between the Black Aces wood M4, or the Panzer M2 at AIM. The M2 is interesting because it looks a little more sleek and slender, comes with a mag extension, and I'll conveniently be right down the road from AIM next month on business. But then there's wood, and the M4 gas system vs. M2 inertia. Which of the two do you all prefer, given that the price is pretty much the same?
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Posted: 9/1/2023 10:49:51 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mr_camera_man: Keeping this thread alive... Thinking of burning some disposable income, and I'm torn between the Black Aces wood M4, or the Panzer M2 at AIM. The M2 is interesting because it looks a little more sleek and slender, comes with a mag extension, and I'll conveniently be right down the road from AIM next month on business. But then there's wood, and the M4 gas system vs. M2 inertia. Which of the two do you all prefer, given that the price is pretty much the same? I bought the wood, just because it looks so good. I had a Benelli M-2 years ago. The inertia system would not reliably cycle light loads. Not a big deal, but makes range day less fun. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 6:25:19 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: I bought the wood, just because it looks so good. I had a Benelli M-2 years ago. The inertia system would not reliably cycle light loads. Not a big deal, but makes range day less fun. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:07:22 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mr_camera_man: Never thought of that.... not until broken in, or not at all? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mr_camera_man: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: I bought the wood, just because it looks so good. I had a Benelli M-2 years ago. The inertia system would not reliably cycle light loads. Not a big deal, but makes range day less fun. It was always very hit or miss with the light loads. It's been many years, but if memory serves, it would work best if you didn't hold it snug to your shoulder and let it flop around a bit. 100% solid with bucks or slugs, for which it is intended. |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 9/15/2023 9:28:12 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Does anyone know anything about the Gforce GF1X PSA has on sale? PSA I've been trying to decide between a Black Aces or paying $100 more for a Panzer. I'm late to the M4 discussion, but thought I'd give the GForce a little love. GForce does seem to import a lot of cheap shotguns, but I suspect the M4 clones are made in the same factory as other M4 clones. I purchased the one linked. It is in fact a Radikal SAX2-T, maybe an improved version of the one previously imported by SDS. It has aluminum sights (not canted) and rail. The trigger housing is plastic, and the magazine cap is plastic on the outside. The finish is good, but does have a tacky white G-Force label that I toned down with Aluminum Black. The stock is one of the plainer ones, but I see Radikal offers a variety of styles. My magazine tube had a lot of thread lock. In fact, my faux mag extension was also thread locked tight. I had to heat up both, and I totally melted the spring retainer (I didn't realize that was plastic). I've put 100 target rounds (three brands) through it and haven't had a single malfunction of any kind. No metal particles or damage to the bolt carrier so far. No complaints other than the melted retainer. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2023 11:03:03 AM EST
[#33]
Let us know how it is when you get a chance to shoot it.
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IN, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2023 9:14:44 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tiribulus: Let us know how it is when you get a chance to shoot it. Apologies if you are not talking to me, but I'm well over 100 rounds through the G-Force/Radikal. Still zero malfunctions and no bolt/carrier wear other than finish. The first 100 or so rounds were as I bought it, but I've put another 28 rounds through it after adding a used FFT mag tube with NZ follower. The replacement tube was scratched up when I got it, so I gave it the AK style BBQ black paint job, which matches okay. Today I installed an Urbino stock to get compliance and a replacement magazine spring retainer. The first attempt to mount, there was a gap between stock and receiver. I turned the buffer tube in one turn and problem was solved. Luckily the buffer tube and nut were not thread locked. I also added an old surplus CMP/Garand sling. Haven't shot it with new stock yet. |
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Posted: 9/22/2023 8:34:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: Capt_Destro]
[#35]
Finally got my wood stock from Black Aces.
Customer service rep apologized. Apparenty they moved, and also had an ATF Audit. I'm probably going to keep it in a "compliant" configuration for now until courts smack down this BS. Debating on selling the wood since I'm liking the polyner handguard/field stock. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 9/30/2023 6:14:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: Tiribulus]
[#36]
I did run into a minor problem with my Panzer M4.
Might be my own fault. I very lightly lubed the mag tube and after several hundred rounds the follower started sticking in there. I cleaned it out and put an NDZ ALUMINUM FOLLOWER in it just because and it's fine. |
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Posted: 10/7/2023 1:02:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: Fordtough25]
[#37]
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Posted: 10/7/2023 1:48:26 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fordtough25: Well I’m finally in the game dudes!! Super pumped! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/269204/IMG_8451_jpeg-2982532.JPG Is the Springfield also a clone? |
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Posted: 10/7/2023 2:00:18 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sendit14: Is the Springfield also a clone? Negative, snagged it this morning too. Springfield m1a scout |
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Posted: 10/7/2023 3:47:53 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fordtough25: Negative, snagged it this morning too. Springfield m1a scout Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fordtough25: Originally Posted By sendit14: Is the Springfield also a clone? Negative, snagged it this morning too. Springfield m1a scout You chose ... wisely. |
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Posted: 10/7/2023 5:07:39 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sendit14: You chose ... wisely. Thanks, going to warm them both up tomorrow hopefully. |
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Posted: 10/7/2023 5:55:38 PM EST
[#42]
CHEAPEST Benelli M4 Clone... That Works!! ($400 Panzer M4)
 CHEAPEST Benelli M4 Clone... That Works!! ($400 Panzer M4) |
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Posted: 10/7/2023 6:01:00 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wreckless: CHEAPEST Benelli M4 Clone... That Works!! ($400 Panzer M4)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KikjV7QZzfsThat’s what I got so looking forward to it! |
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Posted: 10/8/2023 10:24:53 AM EST
[#44]
Watched the video finally, promising for sure. Now I want to go shoot pumpkins with my m4 clone!!
They’re not $400 anymore often anyways, but I didn’t pay way over that so I’m tickled pink! |
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Posted: 10/8/2023 1:55:44 PM EST
[#45]
Where does the STOEGER M3000 FREEDOM SERIES fall in relation to the other such as Panzer M4?
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Posted: 10/8/2023 2:05:04 PM EST
[#46]
When I bought my M2 I settled for it over the M4
Till this day I regret not springing the extra coin for the M4 Don’t get me wrong, my M2 has been a flawless armadillo killing machine. But it’s still not an M4 Now I’m back to wanting an M4 and really want to like a clone but just can’t bring myself to do it. Maybe I’ve watched too many TFBTV clone torture test. |
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Posted: 10/8/2023 4:43:21 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cajun_Redneck: When I bought my M2 I settled for it over the M4 Till this day I regret not springing the extra coin for the M4 Don’t get me wrong, my M2 has been a flawless armadillo killing machine. But it’s still not an M4 Now I’m back to wanting an M4 and really want to like a clone but just can’t bring myself to do it. Maybe I’ve watched too many TFBTV clone torture test. If mine runs flawless I’m going to IM James lol |
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Posted: 10/8/2023 7:01:53 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fordtough25: If mine runs flawless I’m going to IM James lol Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fordtough25: Originally Posted By Cajun_Redneck: When I bought my M2 I settled for it over the M4 Till this day I regret not springing the extra coin for the M4 Don’t get me wrong, my M2 has been a flawless armadillo killing machine. But it’s still not an M4 Now I’m back to wanting an M4 and really want to like a clone but just can’t bring myself to do it. Maybe I’ve watched too many TFBTV clone torture test. If mine runs flawless I’m going to IM James lol I’m definitely looking forward to a range report. Looking at your pic a few post up, I’d say that’s a mighty fine looking shotgun. |
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Posted: 10/8/2023 7:54:31 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cajun_Redneck: I’m definitely looking forward to a range report. Looking at your pic a few post up, I’d say that’s a mighty fine looking shotgun. Thanks I think so too, it feels and points so nice!!! Action is super smooth too. I’ll post a good report soon. |
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Posted: 10/9/2023 1:43:01 PM EST
[#50]
Also what magazine tube works with the lander to give it 7 round capacity? I’ll go back through the thread again but curious. Thanks!
Kyle |
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