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Link Posted: 6/1/2024 5:46:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BASE] [#1]
RCM is supposedly making a run of new boltheads for these things, as well as the barrels.

ETA: I was looking over some of my parts last night and started wondering if it wouldn't be possible to convert a G3 bolt head. It looks like it would need a bit of machining on the bottom and that hole added to the face. Really not sure but I'm kind of curious now.
Link Posted: 6/1/2024 6:54:25 PM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jbntex:


From your pic the bolt head looks like it has pretty bad roller dents in the front roller pocket as well.   I am not sure if Century can do anything about that as all these kits look well used but just keep that in mind when you build it might not make bolt gap without some + sized rollers and/or you may need a new bolt head.
View Quote


Luckily they are replacing the entire carrier and bolt!
Link Posted: 6/1/2024 6:56:12 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BASE:
RCM is supposedly making a run of new boltheads for these things, as well as the barrels.

ETA: I was looking over some of my parts last night and started wondering if it wouldn't be possible to convert a G3 bolt head. It looks like it would need a bit of machining on the bottom and that hole added to the face. Really not sure but I'm kind of curious now.
View Quote



And trunnions. I’m probably going to do their barrel, bolt head, and trunnion just so those are all fresh. Can’t build anything until I have a barrel anyways.
Link Posted: 6/1/2024 10:43:09 PM EDT
[#4]
How much would it cost to have one of the reputable smiths build one of these?
Link Posted: 6/1/2024 11:32:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cms81586] [#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mah827:
How much would it cost to have one of the reputable smiths build one of these?
View Quote




Very few builders will touch HK beltfed’s these days. Other stuff is quicker and easier. Those that will (I think Dakota Tactical will) have over a year wait and will probably charge upwards of $4k. And that wait will go through the roof too because 2500 of these things just hit the market. I’m building my own. I’ll take my time and build whatever jigs I need to make sure it’s done right.
Link Posted: 6/2/2024 10:46:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: JoshNC] [#6]
Build costs and lead times vary by builder. You’ll have to reach out to get pricing.

Michael’s Machines.
Jeff Walters aka Ghilliebear.
Carlos at BPP.
Ralph Smith Sr at RDTS.
Ralph Smith Jr at Anubis.
Ken Clark at KC Arms (was previously co-owner of TPM).

All have different pricing.  All have different lead times. Ralph Jr may or may not be doing 21s. He posted one recently to IG, so it’s worth asking.

Don’t expect most of the above to be fast or to stay on the quoted lead time. Ralph Sr will be a many year process.  Michael’s Machines reportedly is pretty fast and sticks closely to his timeline. He has a bunch of 21s in the pipeline so his lead times are going to get longer. Jeff Walters is also reportedly pretty fast, but he too has a bunch of 21 builds in queue.
Link Posted: 6/2/2024 12:03:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Didn't know a lot about these guns, but I've been starting to do research since buying a kit. God damn these guns are sexy

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 6/2/2024 2:30:23 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JoshNC:
Build costs and lead times vary by builder. You’ll have to reach out to get pricing.

Michael’s Machines.
Jeff Walters aka Ghilliebear.
Carlos at BPP.
Ralph Smith Sr at RDTS.
Ralph Smith Jr at Anubis.
Ken Clark at KC Arms (was previously co-owner of TPM).

All have different pricing.  All have different lead times. Ralph Jr may or may not be doing 21s. He posted one recently to IG, so it’s worth asking.

Don’t expect most of the above to be fast or to stay on the quoted lead time. Ralph Sr will be a many year process.  Michael’s Machines reportedly is pretty fast and sticks closely to his timeline. He has a bunch of 21s in the pipeline so his lead times are going to get longer. Jeff Walters is also reportedly pretty fast, but he too has a bunch of 21 builds in queue.
View Quote



@joshNC

When you had your 11A1 built did whoever did it press the trunnion out of the shroud or leave it in place and just trim the front of the donor receiver for a graft/weld?
Link Posted: 6/2/2024 3:16:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JoshNC] [#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cms81586:



@joshNC

When you had your 11A1 built did whoever did it press the trunnion out of the shroud or leave it in place and just trim the front of the donor receiver for a graft/weld?
View Quote


The 11a1/21a1/21E/23E trunion is welded to the shroud, so it’s a little different than the 21, which is welded to the receiver.

I bought an 11a1 from a small 07/02 who did a couple by removing the receiver stub and a couple by just grafting the whole cut segment into a receiver trimmed to match. Unfortunately I returned it for a refund because the receiver was totally out of spec.

I just sent German 21e parts and an 11a1 shroud to MM to build.

In communications with various builders, MM, Banhoff, TSC, RDTS, Ralph Jr, and Ghilliebear will only build a 21 or 21e the way HK built them. Meaning the portion of demilled receiver is removed from the shroud and trunion, the trunion and shroud are then installed into the new receiver, fixtured, and welded. Wes Pritts at Black Ops Defense builds by rolling a flat, cutting it to fuse it with the front segment of remnant receiver/trunion/shroud.

I believe most of the builders who were doing 21s with E upgrades (RDTS, MM, TSC) will weld the trunion to the shroud as is done on the E. I could be wrong about that.
Link Posted: 6/2/2024 8:16:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cms81586] [#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JoshNC:


The 11a1/21a1/21E/23E trunion is welded to the shroud, so it’s a little different than the 21, which is welded to the receiver.

I bought an 11a1 from a small 07/02 who did a couple by removing the receiver stub and a couple by just grafting the whole cut segment into a receiver trimmed to match. Unfortunately I returned it for a refund because the receiver was totally out of spec.

I just sent German 21e parts and an 11a1 shroud to MM to build.

In communications with various builders, MM, Banhoff, TSC, RDTS, Ralph Jr, and Ghilliebear will only build a 21 or 21e the way HK built them. Meaning the portion of demilled receiver is removed from the shroud and trunion, the trunion and shroud are then installed into the new receiver, fixtured, and welded. Wes Pritts at Black Ops Defense builds by rolling a flat, cutting it to fuse it with the front segment of remnant receiver/trunion/shroud.

I believe most of the builders who were doing 21s with E upgrades (RDTS, MM, TSC) will weld the trunion to the shroud as is done on the E. I could be wrong about that.
View Quote


Ah gotcha. I’m not super familiar with crew served HK’s so that’s a learning point for me.


So it’s at least possible to leave the trunnion in place and graft a new receiver onto it. I’m curious how that would hold up long term. Just tossing the shroud in my lathe I confirmed it will fit today. Going to grab a parting tool and larger dead center and just machine off the welds…mill the welds up top, and press out the trunnion like ORF did them (the right way). Was just curious if leaving the trunnion in place would work. Appreciate the response man!


Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 6/2/2024 11:11:45 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cms81586:


Ah gotcha. I’m not super familiar with crew served HK’s so that’s a learning point for me.


So it’s at least possible to leave the trunnion in place and graft a new receiver onto it. I’m curious how that would hold up long term. Just tossing the shroud in my lathe I confirmed it will fit today. Going to grab a parting tool and larger dead center and just machine off the welds…mill the welds up top, and press out the trunnion like ORF did them (the right way). Was just curious if leaving the trunnion in place would work. Appreciate the response man!


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/2980/IMG_1600_jpeg-3230605.JPG
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Happy to help. It’s very cool that you have the capability to build one yourself. I look forward to following your progress.
Link Posted: 6/3/2024 7:41:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: cms81586] [#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JoshNC:


Happy to help. It’s very cool that you have the capability to build one yourself. I look forward to following your progress.
View Quote



I guess it remains to be seen if I have the skill part of the equation too!
Link Posted: 6/3/2024 11:02:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: lightguy] [#13]
Atlantic was offering matching #s kits all gone now.
I read further up in the thread there were 2500 kits imported. Not a great amount but not onesie twosie either.
There are a few original (?) barrels on Gunbroker.
Or is it best to wait for US production barrels ?
I just had a Russian RPK kit built and went with a $500 Bulgarian barrel and machined collet to match. Considering the price of the project I felt it was worth it.
HK21 barrels are $2100.
EDIT; Just checked.
ALL GB barrels gone.
Link Posted: 6/3/2024 8:03:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cms81586] [#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lightguy:
Atlantic was offering matching #s kits all gone now.
I read further up in the thread there were 2500 kits imported. Not a great amount but not onesie twosie either.
There are a few original (?) barrels on Gunbroker.
Or is it best to wait for US production barrels ?
I just had a Russian RPK kit built and went with a $500 Bulgarian barrel and machined collet to match. Considering the price of the project I felt it was worth it.
HK21 barrels are $2100.
EDIT; Just checked.
ALL GB barrels gone.
View Quote



I’d be patient and wait for the RCM barrels. Buy a bolt head and trunnion too and the thing will have a lot higher chance of operating as it should. I’m impatient but can’t finish the build without a barrel anyways so that’s the route I’m gonna take. Until then, I’ll prep parts and get this trunnion out of the shroud. My live center and parting tool both arrived today. Stopped by Harbor Freight and grabbed a 12-ton shop press too.
Link Posted: 6/3/2024 8:22:21 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cms81586:



I’d be patient and wait for the RCM barrels. Buy a bolt head and trunnion too and the thing will have a lot higher chance of operating as it should. I’m impatient but can’t finish the build without a barrel anyways so that’s the route I’m gonna take. Until then, I’ll prep parts and get this trunnion out of the shroud. My love center and parting tool both arrived today. Stopped by Harbor Freight and grabbed a 12-ton shop press too.
View Quote


Isn't the trunnion welded into the barrel shroud? Might be kinda hard to remove it without damaging the shroud? Honest question.
Link Posted: 6/3/2024 8:34:04 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Type7SOT:


Isn't the trunnion welded into the barrel shroud? Might be kinda hard to remove it without damaging the shroud? Honest question.
View Quote



There’s a good breakdown in this thread.

https://weaponsguild.com/forum/index.php?topic=88239.0
Link Posted: 6/3/2024 9:02:57 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cms81586:



There’s a good breakdown in this thread.

https://weaponsguild.com/forum/index.php?topic=88239.0
View Quote


Excellent! Thank you.
Link Posted: 6/3/2024 9:36:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JoshNC] [#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Type7SOT:


Isn't the trunnion welded into the barrel shroud? Might be kinda hard to remove it without damaging the shroud? Honest question.
View Quote



In the 21 the trunion is plug welded to the receiver and the shroud is welded to the front of the receiver.
Link Posted: 6/3/2024 10:14:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Heineken] [#19]
I have a new FMP barrel in hand, and new old stock bolt head and carrier on the way.  Going to use those and test the 3 trunnions I have.  As long as I get one of those trunnions to give me good bolt gap with the new barrel/bolt/carrier and standard rollers, then I will know the trunnion is worth using for the build.  At that point I'm going with Jeff at PCS, his time is very good, he goes above and beyond testing all the parts making sure they are build worthy, and even if he takes a little longer then his current timeline it's still a great timeline.  He has good experience with 21 builds so I'm keeping my fingers crossed one of these trunnions will work so I don't need to wait for RCM trunnions!

Once RCM drops parts I'll be in for a barrel and bolt and use those and preserve the originals.

All my other critical parts look really good, one of the feed mechanisms I got is super nice and crispy, if it won't work then none of them will lol.
Link Posted: 6/4/2024 10:10:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Type7SOT] [#20]
Here we go!

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Edit: I noticed someone left a 3 star review saying their kit was pretty rusty, but the review got taken down. I wonder if Centerfire Systems made it right, or if they just took the review down.
Link Posted: 6/4/2024 12:39:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Type7SOT:
Here we go!

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/490765/1000006320_jpg-3231892.JPG

Edit: I noticed someone left a 3 star review saying their kit was pretty rusty, but the review got taken down. I wonder if Centerfire Systems made it right, or if they just took the review down.
View Quote



Those who have had issues with these kits across several resellers have all taken care of customers.
Link Posted: 6/4/2024 12:41:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 58Teague] [#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cms81586:



Those who have had issues with these kits across several resellers have all taken care of customers.
View Quote


Im about to buy a kit, which retailer should I be going with? Atlantic, century, centerfire? (I know Ill be waiting for stock replenishment)
Link Posted: 6/4/2024 2:56:23 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 58Teague:


Im about to buy a kit, which retailer should I be going with? Atlantic, century, centerfire? (I know Ill be waiting for stock replenishment)
View Quote


Century was the original importer. Apex said they’ll have about 30 more kits available in the next few weeks.
Link Posted: 6/4/2024 3:46:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: VidaEterna] [#24]
Two kits arrived yesterday from Apex. I had to delay the shipment since we were on a shark catching trip with my boys. Sending both to BPP tomorrow. He cut me a deal on two barrels and says that he has a 8 month turn around. We’ll see.
Link Posted: 6/4/2024 5:46:11 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VidaEterna:
Two kits arrived yesterday from Apex. I had to delay the shipment since we were on a trip catching sharks off of SSI. Sending both to BPP tomorrow. He cut me a deal on two barrels and says that he has a 8 month turn around. We’ll see.
View Quote



What is he charging for a barrel and a build?
Link Posted: 6/4/2024 6:11:08 PM EDT
[#26]
Link Posted: 6/4/2024 6:45:50 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


Thanks!
Link Posted: 6/4/2024 6:54:02 PM EDT
[#28]
That seems very reasonable.

I did come across some MM barrels last week listed at ~1100. I think they have the E extractor cut in them but would probably work just fine for someone that’s in a hurry to get building.
Link Posted: 6/4/2024 6:57:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cms81586] [#29]
She’s Toight like a Tigah.

But she fits.


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Step 1 using the ORF guide…. Shroud rear welds are done. Still have to mill the top welds at the cocking tube. The band saw cut in mine was crooked as hell. Zip tied the cocking handle down and then electrical taped over it to keep it in place. If anyone decides to do their own and you have a smallish lathe…keep your cutting speed down. Slowest I could go in this machine is 500rpm. The shroud is off balance enough that it gives a little vibration. Make sure the piece is tight in the chuck. Didn’t have any issues but it would have been easier on a larger lathe (obviously) with coolant.

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Link Posted: 6/4/2024 10:45:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cms81586] [#30]
I’m going to score the trunnion with a razor blade before in press out the trunnion just to have a reference point. I’m going to leave the extra material on the cocking tube and wait to cut it back until I’m ready to assemble on the receiver. I don’t want to have too much or two little of a gap between the bolt carrier and cocking support when I get it all together. In the end it will get cut somewhere closer to here.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 6/5/2024 11:51:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cms81586] [#31]
Todays mission was to get the trunnion out. Cocking tube welds milled first. I’ll mill off the remnant receiver sheet metal off the trunnion tomorrow. One step at a time. I made a slug to protect the trunnion and used a socket and then some bar stock to push the thing out. Came out fairly smoothly. I could have cut a bit farther when it came to trimming the cocking tube like I mentioned in the last post, but it still came out fine. If you’re doing a DIY build trim back a bit more. I’ll get measurements later tomorrow.

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Link Posted: 6/5/2024 11:52:54 PM EDT
[#32]
Aaaaand it’s out.

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Link Posted: 6/6/2024 12:38:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Pro_Patria_431] [#33]
Thanks for documenting your work. I probably won't get started on mine until next year. I need to get some skills before I start.
Link Posted: 6/6/2024 8:26:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: cms81586] [#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Pro_Patria_431:
Thanks for documenting your work. I probably won't get started on mine until next year. I need to get some skills before I start.
View Quote



No problem! I’m in the same boat as you. I can run a lathe and mill enough to be dangerous, but my welding leaves a lot to be desired. I’ve been practicing that and should have it down pretty good before I ever touch the receiver with the welder. I’ll try to list out any lessons learned as I go through this to help out anyone else who decides to undertake their own build. The removal is pretty straightforward if you do have a mill in a lathe. I will say, if you look at my photo above, or I added a dashed red line for cutting back the cocking tube , I would recommend making that cut farther forward. I’ll get a measurement and put it up here so you have an approximate location but it’ll be just aft of the original weld (on the receiver side). Just don’t cut too far or you’ll be filling a gap between the new receiver and old cocking tube.
Link Posted: 6/6/2024 9:30:45 AM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cms81586:
Aaaaand it’s out.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/2980/IMG_1723_jpeg-3233557.JPG
View Quote


Thanks for sharing your progress. That came apart way different than I was expecting. It makes more sense now that I see it.
Link Posted: 6/6/2024 10:03:16 AM EDT
[#36]
Check your kits. I have two cracked BC’s and 2 damaged Bolt Heads. Mine came from Apex. I have contacted them with pictures. We’ll see what they decide to do.
Link Posted: 6/6/2024 4:02:14 PM EDT
[#37]
You guys may want to check your buffers.  My buffer was frozen up solid.  With the buffer removed from the stock, I used some heat on it and kept putting pressure on it in the vise, and it finally broke free.  Now it compresses as it should (it's very hard to compress which is normal, but it's moving now).
Link Posted: 6/6/2024 4:34:33 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VidaEterna:
Check your kits. I have two cracked BC’s and 2 damaged Bolt Heads. Mine came from Apex. I have contacted them with pictures. We’ll see what they decide to do.
View Quote



My bolt was cracked and a roller missing (roller retainer broken too). They sent me a new one. Should be here tomorrow.
Link Posted: 6/6/2024 4:35:17 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jntmjt1:
You guys may want to check your buffers.  My buffer was frozen up solid.  With the buffer removed from the stock, I used some heat on it and kept putting pressure on it in the vise, and it finally broke free.  Now it compresses as it should (it's very hard to compress which is normal, but it's moving now).
View Quote



Haven’t messed with the stock yet as I plan on swapping it for a club foot, but good to know. Appreciate the heads up.
Link Posted: 6/6/2024 4:41:18 PM EDT
[#40]
Is anyone going to add the forward assist?
Link Posted: 6/6/2024 5:10:15 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Skammy:
Is anyone going to add the forward assist?
View Quote


Zero plans. I believe also requires an entirely different bolt carrier and a 21E bolt carrier will work with this early HK-21 feed mechanism.
Link Posted: 6/6/2024 6:45:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JoshNC] [#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cms81586:


Zero plans. I believe also requires an entirely different bolt carrier and a 21E bolt carrier will work with this early HK-21 feed mechanism.
View Quote


It requires the addition of an extension at the rear of the carrier and the serrations for the forward assist pawl. A 21E carrier will not work with a 21 feed mech. The 21E advances the belt on forward and rearward stroke of the carrier. The camming track on the bottom of the carrier that interfaces with the feed mech slide is different for the 21 and 21E.
Link Posted: 6/6/2024 7:01:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cms81586] [#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JoshNC:


It requires the addition of an extension at the rear of the carrier and the serrations for the forward assist pawl. A 21E carrier will not work with a 21 feed mech. The 21E advances the belt on forward and rearward stroke of the carrier. The camming track on the bottom of the carrier that interfaces with the feed mech slide is different for the 21 and 21E.
View Quote



That’s what I figured but I wasn’t 100% sure. Either way…not forward assist for me…the only HK-21E-esque parts I’m going with are a club foot G3 stock and a HK-21 style G3 cocking handle.
Link Posted: 6/6/2024 7:55:08 PM EDT
[#44]
I'm very happy with my kit from Centerfire Systems. Its dirty as hell, but in good shape. The bolt is HK marked and is perfect. The belt feed system is perfect. The trunnion appears to be good, and the cut isnt too much of a hack job.

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Link Posted: 6/6/2024 7:56:17 PM EDT
[#45]
More pics. There is a small dent in the barrel shroud but should be easy to fix

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Link Posted: 6/6/2024 8:44:48 PM EDT
[#46]
I wish my cocking tube looked like that. Mine is beat. Nothing I can’t clean up with a die grinder and a little weld filling if need be.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 6/6/2024 9:06:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Type7SOT] [#47]
Stupid question, but how do you get the bolt assembled back on the carrier? Is it supposed to be the same as a G3? Because I watched some youtube videos on the G3 bolt and this doesnt seem to be the same.

Edit: nevermind, I figured it out. It does appear to be different than the G3. You have to hold the bolt in a different position before you press it on. Kinda hard to describe it. You know you're doing it right if it hurts your fingers lol.
Link Posted: 6/6/2024 9:49:58 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Type7SOT:
Stupid question, but how do you get the bolt assembled back on the carrier? Is it supposed to be the same as a G3? Because I watched some youtube videos on the G3 bolt and this doesnt seem to be the same.

Edit: nevermind, I figured it out. It does appear to be different than the G3. You have to hold the bolt in a different position before you press it on. Kinda hard to describe it. You know you're doing it right if it hurts your fingers lol.
View Quote



Yeah it’s pretty similar to the G3 but a little tougher. Not sure if it’s the firing pin spring or what but it’s definitely a little more challenging.
Link Posted: 6/6/2024 11:19:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Pro_Patria_431] [#49]
Attachment Attached File


Judging by the BCG, I'm 2 for 2 on these kits. The trunnion was in good shape too.

The TIG machine came in today as well. Time to start practicing.

I talked to a buddy about freeing the trunnion. There isn't much space for the tool, and we need to come up with something for the tailstock on his lathe.
Link Posted: 6/7/2024 7:40:33 AM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Pro_Patria_431:
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/358054/1000007104_jpg-3234463.JPG

Judging by the BCG, I'm 2 for 2 on these kits. The trunnion was in good shape too.

The TIG machine came in today as well. Time to start practicing.

I talked to a buddy about freeing the trunnion. There isn't much space for the tool, and we need to come up with something for the tailstock on his lathe.
View Quote



Get a 60* live center. Worked great for me.
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