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Posted: 7/7/2024 2:50:54 AM EDT
I've been seeing Supergain tubes floating around the market. Are they worth the upcharge? Or more of a gimmick?
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[Last Edit: TNVC_Riley]
[#1]
Originally Posted By Gudabeg: I've been seeing Supergain tubes floating around the market. Are they worth the upcharge? Or more of a gimmick? View Quote Will (aka Nitewalker) has one of the best videos showing what practical differences you can expect to see between standard gain and SuperGain tubes. https://youtu.be/gFZIlLEci2I?si=K0juTPhnhryUTc-E It's definitely not a gimmick, because from a scientific standpoint there is a rather large measurable difference in the gain specifications. The reason I shared the video above however is to bridge the gap between that scientific measurement (the difference in gain specifications) with what most people actually care about, which is how it looks to the eye and just how much better they actually perform. As far as it being worth the cost increase, it always comes back to what I like to refer to as the "price to performance ratio" (example: Am I paying 20% more $ for a 20% increase in performance?) and then most importantly your use case. I think professionals can always justify paying for any incrimental increases in performance so they maintain that edge in whatever job it is they need to excel in, especially if it involves safety or protection of human life. I also know plenty of recreational users who simply enjoy having the very latest tech. For example, I do a lot of night vision photography and can say it's a worthy upgrade for that use case alone. If you don't have access to try one in person, I recommend looking for as many good video/photo comparisons as possible, and go from there. |
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[Last Edit: JohnDough]
[#2]
Originally Posted By Gudabeg: I've been seeing Supergain tubes floating around the market. Are they worth the upcharge? Or more of a gimmick? View Quote In my opinion, worth the upcharge. Some guy on Facebook shared a video with a regular L3 UFWP and a SG tube installed in GPNVG housing next to each other in the same "pod" and it was easily apparent which one offered the advantage. |
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[#3]
Don't forget, it's also not just a higher gain level. All of the TNVC SuperGain tubes are guaranteed to receive the 4um MCP / 3um lead free fiber optic format which is what sets these apart from all of the others on the market.
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Deputy Director of Commercial Sales
Tactical Night Vision Corporation - TNVC, INC. http://www.tnvc.com [email protected] (909) 796-7000 Ex. 610 |
[#4]
Originally Posted By TNVC_Will: Don't forget, it's also not just a higher gain level. All of the TNVC SuperGain tubes are guaranteed to receive the 4um MCP / 3um lead free fiber optic format which is what sets these apart from all of the others on the market. View Quote May I ask what that means? This close to ordering a supergain set from you guys just trying to really dial in what housing. I’ve heard this referenced but have *no* clue what it means ![]() |
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[#5]
Originally Posted By Marksman14: May I ask what that means? This close to ordering a supergain set from you guys just trying to really dial in what housing. I’ve heard this referenced but have *no* clue what it means ![]() View Quote While not a wholly accurate analogy, the finer MCP can be thought of like smaller / more pixels relative to screen resolution on digital monitors or camera sensors, the smaller the pixels, the greater the detail that can be discerned. This means improved PID, potentially longer PID distances, greater ability to resolve details such as weapons, signage/lettering, facial features, etc. The finer MCP allows for far greater potential resolution and detail than attainable with the 5μm MCPs, which raises the ceiling for minimum performance guarantees as well as maximum potential performance. |
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Deputy Director of Commercial Sales
Tactical Night Vision Corporation - TNVC, INC. http://www.tnvc.com [email protected] (909) 796-7000 Ex. 610 |
[#6]
Originally Posted By TNVC_Will: While not a wholly accurate analogy, the finer MCP can be thought of like smaller / more pixels relative to screen resolution on digital monitors or camera sensors, the smaller the pixels, the greater the detail that can be discerned. This means improved PID, potentially longer PID distances, greater ability to resolve details such as weapons, signage/lettering, facial features, etc. The finer MCP allows for far greater potential resolution and detail than attainable with the 5μm MCPs, which raises the ceiling for minimum performance guarantees as well as maximum potential performance. View Quote Tangibly, I have always felt even my non-SG TNVC tubes were just...crisper. Not necessarily that they "saw more in the dark", but they were just more pleasing to look through. Sounds dumb, but is what it is. |
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[#7]
I have supergain tubes and they're excellent.
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I'd buy that for a dollar!
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[#8]
What's the contract Designation for these 4um supergain tubes?
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[#9]
Originally Posted By Gudabeg: I've been seeing Supergain tubes floating around the market. Are they worth the upcharge? Or more of a gimmick? View Quote Mine have X-Ray vision capabilities (TNVC really hooked me up). And it was worth the wait to get my DTNVS Super Gain. |
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Fuck Cancer. Love you Pop.
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[#10]
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Tactical Night Vision Corporation - TNVC, INC.
http://www.tnvc.com [email protected] (909) 796-7000 Ex. 201 |
[#11]
Well, 'worth it' is subjective. For me it's not worth it but I don't regularly use NV and I don't engage hostile targets so spending an extra 6 or 7 grand is not worth it.
I saved a bundle by investing in a good ir illuminator ![]() |
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[#12]
Originally Posted By 2JokersWild: Well, 'worth it' is subjective. For me it's not worth it but I don't regularly use NV and I don't engage hostile targets so spending an extra 6 or 7 grand is not worth it. I saved a bundle by investing in a good ir illuminator ![]() View Quote 6 or 7 grand? Panos? |
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[Last Edit: 2JokersWild]
[#13]
Originally Posted By JohnDough: 6 or 7 grand? Panos? View Quote I suppose a good question pose to Supergain users is, if you run Supergains do you also run an IR illuminator on your rifle? That may help determine if that extra 6 or 7 grand is actually worth it to a civilian buyer. |
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[Last Edit: TechOps]
[#14]
I'd like to look through some before making any comments, it seems a lot of people have the ability to judge them without ever using some, which seems odd.
I have a bridged thermal and single (14), interested in upgrading the single to super in the future, the raven bridge is quite versatile and my mind does the overlay thing, which is nice. |
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[#15]
Originally Posted By 2JokersWild: Binos. You can get 'middle class' binos for 6 to 8. Supergains can run up to 12 or 14. Are Supergains better? Empirically so. Are they worth it? Not at all for me. I suppose a good question pose to Supergain users is, if you run Supergains do you also run an IR illuminator on your rifle? That may help determine if that extra 6 or 7 grand is actually worth it to a civilian buyer. View Quote My setups still have IR illuminators for when I need them, but I notice that most of the conditions that needed IR illumination with my older non-SG tube don't need it with my supergain tubes. |
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I'd buy that for a dollar!
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[#16]
Originally Posted By 2JokersWild: Binos. You can get 'middle class' binos for 6 to 8. Supergains can run up to 12 or 14. Are Supergains better? Empirically so. Are they worth it? Not at all for me. I suppose a good question pose to Supergain users is, if you run Supergains do you also run an IR illuminator on your rifle? That may help determine if that extra 6 or 7 grand is actually worth it to a civilian buyer. View Quote I use supergain tubes, a Raid Xe, and a Princeton Tec helmet light. I want to see the very best I can, in any situation. |
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[#17]
Originally Posted By spork: My setups still have IR illuminators for when I need them, but I notice that most of the conditions that needed IR illumination with my older non-SG tube don't need it with my supergain tubes. View Quote I mainly use IR to PID things with my SG tubes. Such as...armadillo or opossum at 75 yards on a moonless night. For navigating, ir isn't really needed even under canopy on moonless overcast nights except for brambles, which white light is the way anyhow due to DOF issues. |
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[Last Edit: JohnDough]
[#18]
Pew
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[Last Edit: JohnDough]
[#19]
Pewpew
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[Last Edit: zinny103090]
[#20]
Would be interested in a apples to apple comparison between 4um and 5um tubes.
Whats difference between the lpmm resolution metric and the performance improvements moving to 4um? The switch to 4um sounds exactly like a increase in lpmm, which is an already measured metric. So if you have a 4um and 5um tube, both measured as 72lpmm, what other improvements does 4um offer? Supergain definely is nice, but if you're in a field trying to stare at someone under the woodline in the "shadows", super gain tubes aren't going to suddenly illuminate that guy when standard ones didnt. |
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[#21]
From what I've read, if you're looking at L3 Filmless WP, you're already looking at the best tubes out there. Now if a supergain is "better"? I think that is going to be very subjective, depending on the other specs, specifically the SNR, not to mention things like blems, or even glass quality. I've seen vids of tube comparisons, with high SNR/"reg" Lum Gain tubes (in the 60,000's), vs Lower SNR/"high" Lum Gain tubes (over 100,000). I woulda picked the higher SNR/"reg" Lum Gain tube.
So it depends. If you get a high (35+) SNR tube, with "super" gain (over 100,000), yes, it could very well be superior. But to answer the question: will it help you see the dude walking just inside the tree line? Maybe. Maybe not. If you stopped for a security halt (or are in a stationary pos), and have a good look around, you might pick him up. If you switch up to thermal, even better chance. If you are moving you might have a 50-50 chance of seeing him first. So your fieldcraft gets a vote as well. |
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It's all about the fiddle factor.
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[#22]
Related to this here discussion, I just bought a really good L3 Unfilmed WP tube in a -14 format. While I considered going with a higher Lum Gain tube, in the end I went with a really good tube with the "normal" Lum Gain. A little context. This will be paired with a RH25 for a dual spectrum helmet mount. I wanted superior performance in both spectrums, at a good price point. I think I have accomplished that mission here.
So to answer the OP, data point of one. I chose to go with a really good L3 Unfilmed WP tube, but not high Lum Gain. My priorities were: L3 Unfilmed WP, as a starting point. Good SNR, mid-30's range. Good Res, 64+ Clean glass, no big spots. I know this shouldn't bother me but it does. Reasonable price. I love NV, but I need thermal, too. |
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It's all about the fiddle factor.
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[#23]
I've been pretty happy with my Supergain unit so far.
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per aspera ad astra
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