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Logically, why haven’t box mag fed shotguns taken off? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/26/2026 10:06:08 AM EDT
| I’m not a big shotgun guy and this has always kind of baffled me. What is the appeal of a tube fed gun over something like an AR12 pattern gun? |
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Originally Posted By Makarov: I think it’s because with the size of shotshells, box magazines make a shotgun awkward and unwieldy. That’s MY experience at least. Very much this. Aside from manning a military/secret service checkpoint or standing watch in a fixed prison guard tower the appeal is pretty limited. I wouldn’t trust a mag that heavy running and bumping around. |
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Originally Posted By 10mmillie: For semiautomatic shotguns box mags make sense but are still heavy and can be awkward and malfunction a lot. I laugh at box mag fed pump guns. Yeah, I have yet to see one get through an IPSC stage without the operator having difficulty. The toob fed guns are way slicker to reload on the move. There are rare exceptions, like one guy I knew who ran a Saiga, but that guy spent a lot of time, effort and money working on his gun to get it to the point where it was 99% reliable. Everyone i know who went to mag fed guns, Valtro and those Turkish AR-ish have returned to tube mags. |
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Originally Posted By Girlieman: Yeah, I have yet to see one get through an IPSC stage without the operator having difficulty. The toob fed guns are way slicker to reload on the move. There are rare exceptions, like one guy I knew who ran a Saiga, but that guy spent a lot of time, effort and money working on his gun to get it to the point where it was 99% reliable. Everyone i know who went to mag fed guns, Valtro and those Turkish AR-ish have returned to tube mags. Mag fed shotguns have taken over in 3gun, at least open division I still shoot a traditional, albeit extended, tube fed shotgun Crazy setups like this are common  And there's always plenty of laughs as the giant mags fall out of pouches, get caught on barricades or trees, and the cheap guns like the vr80 malfunction |
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I can see a limited use case for WA hunters who like carrying a shotgun for grouse: it's illegal to carry a loaded long gun in the vehicle in WA, so you could have the shotgun staged, ready to insert a mag and get into action quickly. |
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First problem is the shotgun shell itself. None are designedto withstand the deformation of being carried in a cruiser ready state. Many years ago i had a Siaga. Staged it cruiser ready, bolt closed, hammer down, on an empty magazine. In less than an hour the top round would deform due to the spring pressure pushing up on it and result in an oval shape front of the cartridge that refused to go into the chamber. Lock bolt open on a full magazine? Not really a good option as a bump might put the shotgun into battery after it falls over.....lots of other issues there. Second problem is actual need. Statistics show that shotgun fights are settled with under two rounds, and rarely with more than a full magazine, unless the shooter misses a lot. When Jeff Cooper did an article on the Striker/Sweet Sweeper abomination (Dont remember which one exactly, but a clockwork revolver design in 12ga) he said that reloading the gun would never be an issue due to being 12 rounds of Twelve gauge unless they plan on missing most shots. He said if anyone ever had to reload after emptying it with 12 good hits, he will personally buy him the drink of his choice. Many of the other issues have already been discussed. |
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Originally Posted By TNC: I can see a limited use case for WA hunters who like carrying a shotgun for grouse: it's illegal to carry a loaded long gun in the vehicle in WA, so you could have the shotgun staged, ready to insert a mag and get into action quickly. How many shot you going to get off on a grouse that flash off when you jump out of the truck? Have a semi auto with the action open, drop one shell in ans you exit the truck, shoot the grouse. Or stop hunting from a truck and get out and walk in the woods like a real hunter. |
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Or stop hunting from a truck and get out and walk in the woods like a real hunter. lol But seriously, I’ve road jumped pheasant and grouse, and, well, a bird in the hand… Just like you never unload until you have everything else in the truck. Those birds will sit quietly for a half hour or more right next to your parking spot |
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| Because for the vast majority of shotgun things they don't really help or make sense. They are big bulky and not super easy to use. Most are rock and lock which isn't ideal either. For most shotgun stuff that slim tube works great. Outside of something like action shooting I think you'd have a hard time making the argument for them. |
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Originally Posted By VaFish: How many shot you going to get off on a grouse that flash off when you jump out of the truck? Have a semi auto with the action open, drop one shell in ans you exit the truck, shoot the grouse. Or stop hunting from a truck and get out and walk in the woods like a real hunter. Originally Posted By VaFish: Originally Posted By TNC: I can see a limited use case for WA hunters who like carrying a shotgun for grouse: it's illegal to carry a loaded long gun in the vehicle in WA, so you could have the shotgun staged, ready to insert a mag and get into action quickly. How many shot you going to get off on a grouse that flash off when you jump out of the truck? Have a semi auto with the action open, drop one shell in ans you exit the truck, shoot the grouse. Or stop hunting from a truck and get out and walk in the woods like a real hunter. Wow. All right. |
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Originally Posted By jeffb1911: First problem is the shotgun shell itself. None are designedto withstand the deformation of being carried in a cruiser ready state. Many years ago i had a Siaga. Staged it cruiser ready, bolt closed, hammer down, on an empty magazine. In less than an hour the top round would deform due to the spring pressure pushing up on it and result in an oval shape front of the cartridge that refused to go into the chamber. |
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Originally Posted By lil_Sig: Pretty sure that's 20 or less. https://www.carolinashooterssupply.com/product-p/da-magkit-saiga12.htm The 25rd drums are the highest capacity for those I’m aware of. |
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Originally Posted By Makarov: I think it’s because with the size of shotshells, box magazines make a shotgun awkward and unwieldy. That’s MY experience at least. This plus box magazines tend to flatten the ends of the shells introducing feeding issues if stored for long periods. Tube mags don't do this shells can be loaded for decades without issue. |
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I am not a shotgun expert at all. But to meit is becouse the ammo is so heavy more than 7 or 8 rounds is just too much. The value of the shotgun to me is that it is handy and maneuverable and streamlined for close tight work. Also, the guys that KNOW shotguns can elaborate on this. But i believe that when you know how to use a tube fed shot gun in a fight you dont run it till empty. You top it off between shots. Which is an advantage to a mag. You fire a few shots, move, top it of and go again. |
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My preferred and favorite platform is shotguns. My favorite firearm is my saiga 12. I think the reason mag fed shotguns haven't taken off is because of price for reliable mag fed and availability. With saiga 12s you could get them cheap but build quality out the box was all over the place. If you weren't someone that wanted to spend a bunch of time doing reliability mods and smoothing out the action you would have to send it to one of the handful of guys that knew what they were doing and have 2k plus into a saiga. Most guys aren't looking to use a 12ga as a primary to justify the cost. Then there is the training to become efficient with the platform. Vepr12 with strait insert mags and last round bolt hold open were big advantages for people that weren't tcoming from the saiga12 world but you still had a shotgun that has a high entry cost and still benefited from further reliability mods. After the 2014 import ban it really gutted them as a good choice in our market. The ar10 based Gen 12 really seems to be the winning ticket for the US market but its truly cost prohibited, 3-5k is a lot for the majority of people. Another issue is mag carrier. I really like my beez combat systems chest rig, I have it setup to work well for me but there really isn't much for good options. Hsgi extended rifle mag pouches work well for the saiga 12 magazines also. Any other mag feed shotgun is not worth mentioning. If you can run and gun or room clear with a rifle, you should have no issues with a gen12/saiga12 with 8-10rd mags. With my s12 ive spent a lot of time and reps training using the bolt hold open lever for mag changes and storage. Because of that I dont have the issue of the underside of the bolt crushing the top of the 1st round in the magazine. |
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Originally Posted By gumby510: Vepr12 with strait insert mags and last round bolt hold open were big advantages for people that weren't coming from the saiga12 world but you still had a shotgun that has a high entry cost and still benefited from further reliability mods. After the 2014 import ban it really gutted them as a good choice in our market. I’m not really a big shotgun guy, and prefer 5.56mm short carbines for several reasons, including capacity and ease of carrying additional ammo. VEPR-12 is badass though. My other favored shotgun is a 14” Benelli M1 Entry (which holds 7 shells despite only having a 14” barrel). https://mccluskeyarms.com/gunsmithing-blog/why-was-the-vepr-12-banned |
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They'd be more popular if the guy holding the patent for the 12ga double stack mags had spread that love around a bit more. He had a great idea, then fell flat on his face capitalizing on it. What he really ended up doing is seeing to it that no other manufacturer could bring them to market. We as consumers get fucked. Mossberg was about the only big name we saw with double stack 12ga mags for their 590. I've got a folding stock vepr and run mostly csspecs metal mags. The SMG ones are kinda trash. They can be worked over, boiled, stretched, sanded, etc to make them run better. Those are the ones the race gunners with the 3ft mags are sticking together. |
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Originally Posted By dana: Also, the guys that KNOW shotguns can elaborate on this. But i believe that when you know how to use a tube fed shot gun in a fight you dont run it till empty. You top it off between shots. Which is an advantage to a mag. You fire a few shots, move, top it of and go again. You’re right about shotgun shells being bulky and heavy. That’s probably the biggest reason they’re not preferred as combat weapons. Other reasons are their short range, and lack of soft armor penetration. |
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Originally Posted By giantpune: They'd be more popular if the guy holding the patent for the 12ga double stack mags had spread that love around a bit more. He had a great idea, then fell flat on his face capitalizing on it. What he really ended up doing is seeing to it that no other manufacturer could bring them to market. We as consumers get fucked. Mossberg was about the only big name we saw with double stack 12ga mags for their 590. I've got a folding stock vepr and run mostly csspecs metal mags. The SMG ones are kinda trash. They can be worked over, boiled, stretched, sanded, etc to make them run better. Those are the ones the race gunners with the 3ft mags are sticking together. When it comes to the saiga12, the izhmash 8rd are best but I have had excellent luck with 10rd agp mags and are the only mags other then factory that I'll use |
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Originally Posted By jeffb1911: First problem is the shotgun shell itself. None are designedto withstand the deformation of being carried in a cruiser ready state. It definitely has to be treated well. Pressure from the mag spring and time in magazine are sure to play a roll, as well as quality of the hull. Seems like they could manufacture hulls to withstand this better, or go back to full brass $$$. I would think someone would be working on this with all the drone stuff out there. A drone that could fly around the deploy 50 rounds would be handy. |
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Originally Posted By joemama74: I would think someone would be working on this with all the drone stuff out there. A drone that could fly around the deploy 50 rounds would be handy. They do have some utility in door breaching, but they’re inferior to explosive “slap charges” in that regard. |
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Originally Posted By jeffb1911: Second problem is actual need. Statistics show that shotgun fights are settled with under two rounds, and rarely with more than a full magazine, unless the shooter misses a lot. When Jeff Cooper did an article on the Striker/Sweet Sweeper abomination (Dont remember which one exactly, but a clockwork revolver design in 12ga) he said that reloading the gun would never be an issue due to being 12 rounds of Twelve gauge unless they plan on missing most shots. He said if anyone ever had to reload after emptying it with 12 good hits, he will personally buy him the drink of his choice. This. Gamers--go have fun, get in an arms race that innovates shotgunny stuff and eventually trickles down. For real world use, I don't need any of the capabilities provided by big heavy cumbersome magazines. Heck, I don't even have tube extensions on my defensive shotguns. Re-reading the quote, I'd be interested in the "rarely with more than a full magazine" example. Let's hear some stories about non-military fights that required more than a full tube (minus the Hollywood Bank Robbery). Maybe there's a handful. None are typical. |
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| Mainly weight. Reliability with some. I have a Black Ace Tactical built on a Mossberg receiver with 10 round magazines, folding stock, breacher muzzle. It doesn’t have the weird mag well like some of the factory mag fed guns have. It’s heavy with 10 +1 loaded up, but it is reliable. More of a toy than practical. I much prefer my Mossberg 8 +1 tube fed over the magazine. |
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Originally Posted By TNC: I can see a limited use case for WA hunters who like carrying a shotgun for grouse: it's illegal to carry a loaded long gun in the vehicle in WA, so you could have the shotgun staged, ready to insert a mag and get into action quickly. That's a pretty common rule Big reason i bought a break action myself. |
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The russian ones are built like a brick shithouse. Add in the steel mags, and its an absolute tank. They also can have nice triggers and swap furniture thanks to aftermarket support. The tavor checks a lot of boxes. 15+1 capacity, plus you can stuff more rounds in either of the lower tubes to top them off. Its shorter than anything else with a stock thats not an SBS, and has the full 18" barrel still. Here they are with a RIA turkish mag fed bullpup and the 590 shockwave with the massive 5+1 capacity.   
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Originally Posted By VaFish: How many shot you going to get off on a grouse that flash off when you jump out of the truck? Have a semi auto with the action open, drop one shell in ans you exit the truck, shoot the grouse. Or stop hunting from a truck and get out and walk in the woods like a real hunter. Originally Posted By VaFish: Originally Posted By TNC: I can see a limited use case for WA hunters who like carrying a shotgun for grouse: it's illegal to carry a loaded long gun in the vehicle in WA, so you could have the shotgun staged, ready to insert a mag and get into action quickly. How many shot you going to get off on a grouse that flash off when you jump out of the truck? Have a semi auto with the action open, drop one shell in ans you exit the truck, shoot the grouse. Or stop hunting from a truck and get out and walk in the woods like a real hunter. I know this is hoing to sound crazy, but sometimes you drive to, and between, hunting areas. |
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Originally Posted By joemama74: It definitely has to be treated well. Pressure from the mag spring and time in magazine are sure to play a roll, as well as quality of the hull. Seems like they could manufacture hulls to withstand this better, or go back to full brass $$$. I would think someone would be working on this with all the drone stuff out there. A drone that could fly around the deploy 50 rounds would be handy. Maybe im just using sturdy buck and slugs but I just checked an agp and izhmash magazine that has been full loaded for 2 years and there isn't any shell deformation. With available us data, in police usage, the average amount of 12ga rounds needed to stop a threat is 1. Current Ukraine conflict has renewed interest in the shotgun platform for both trench warfare and last line of defense against drones. Especially now with the high usage of fiberoptic drones which jammers do not work on. Israel just did a large purchase of gen12s for drone defense. Even on our side of the pond there has been heightened interest based on the cartels usage of drones. In a cqb scenario (which is zero percent of us) a semi auto 12ga is the most lethal platform that could be utilized. I wish the 12ga was more popular but its hard to argue with the practicality of an sbr. If someone's training and reps are with a ar rifle its hard to justify a platform with a range of 150yds or less along with the fact the 12ga recoil isn't for everyone. |
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Originally Posted By gumby510: Maybe im just using sturdy buck and slugs but I just checked an agp and izhmash magazine that has been full loaded for 2 years and there isn't any shell deformation. I’ve tried Federal FliteControl 00 Buck and it didn’t hold up as well as the S&B. |
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder: Loaded with what shells? And what’s the capacity of each mag? I’ve tried Federal FliteControl 00 Buck and it didn’t hold up as well as the S&B. Originally Posted By KitBuilder: Originally Posted By gumby510: Maybe im just using sturdy buck and slugs but I just checked an agp and izhmash magazine that has been full loaded for 2 years and there isn't any shell deformation. I’ve tried Federal FliteControl 00 Buck and it didn’t hold up as well as the S&B. S&B cases seem to be pretty thick honestly. Downside is they are sized a bit longer. I picked up a bunch of 00 Buckshot for a good price. Otherwise mag fed shotguns just feel like toys to me due to reliability. My Civet 12 is fun as hell to shoot lol. JTS mags are cheap and work well. Slapped on an XS Sights rail since the factory one had a shitty polymer ghost ring. Magpul friend/stock. Best $200 shotgun ever, made by Norinco. It's a modified 870. It kinda sucks you need to load these with an open bolt. With a Saiga 12 it's a bit combersome. I found the Iraqi Reload Method to be quickest (it takes some upper body strength though) I haven't had the best experience with the bolt hold open experience. It likes to slam the bolt shut pretty easy. As for the Civet 12 I only need to slide the forend back. |
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Originally Posted By Capt_Destro: S&B cases seem to be pretty thick honestly. Downside is they are sized a bit longer. I picked up a bunch of 00 Buckshot for a good price. Originally Posted By Capt_Destro: S&B cases seem to be pretty thick honestly. Downside is they are sized a bit longer. I picked up a bunch of 00 Buckshot for a good price. It kinda sucks you need to load these with an open bolt. With a Saiga 12 it's a bit combersome. I found the Iraqi Reload Method to be quickest. I don't trust the bolt hold open. I can load my Russian Molot 8 or 10rd mags while they’re full and the bolt is closed. Is that unusual? (My SGM 25rd drum can’t do that though.) |
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder: Loaded with what shells? And what’s the capacity of each mag? I’ve tried Federal FliteControl 00 Buck and it didn’t hold up as well as the S&B. Federal tactical S&b Remington ultimate defense Mili Hornady Mili are slugs and the rest are buckshot with the majority being Federal tactical and remington ultimate defense 8 pellet 00. All loaded to 8rds in izhmash or 10rds in agp mags |
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder: Yeah the S&B shells fit my stick mags, but not drums (VEPR-12 or USAS-12) due to their longer length. The auto BHO on my VEPR-12 has been 100% reliable so far. I can load my Russian Molot 8 or 10rd mags while they’re full and the bolt is closed. Is that unusual? (My SGM 25rd drum can’t do that though.) With your molot mags that is normal its the same with the izhmash 8rd for the saiga. Other non factory mags tend to make them as short as possible for the round count to where the factory mags are just short of being 1 more round so you can load them on a closed bolt. |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: I think we'll end up w/ skinny single stacks of mini-shells. 5-7 rnds, like a deep MP5 mag. I always thought a rimless 12 or 20 would be the way forward. Makes mags a bit easier. I just don't think the market is there for it. The mini shells should have been a thing decades ago. I'm hoping they become popular enough to drop the cost a bit so we might get more cool guns designed for them. |
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder: Yeah the S&B shells fit my stick mags, but not drums (VEPR-12 or USAS-12) due to their longer length. The auto BHO on my VEPR-12 has been 100% reliable so far. I can load my Russian Molot 8 or 10rd mags while they’re full and the bolt is closed. Is that unusual? (My SGM 25rd drum can’t do that though.) I feel like the VEPR it's a different story. Imo VEPR style shotguns > Saiga since reloading is a heck of a lot easier. I think it's a better design than Saiga's rock and lock. Though my experience is mainly with the Lynx these days. The JTS with mag well makes it a bit easier. Doing a rock and lock with a shell hitting the bolt carrier feels awkward. I have ripped the feed lips off a magazine before  I can only guess that the shell caught on the lip of the reciever and acted like a lever. The feed lips are pressed into polymer mags via a circle indentation.All of the shells proceeded to shoot out of the mag. |
| My Civet won't feed the 5th round from the mag. The 1st 4 feed fine, the last one pivots to the right off the carrier & smacks into the receiver. |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: I think we'll end up w/ skinny single stacks of mini-shells. 5-7 rnds, like a deep MP5 mag. That's a good idea that would probably be marketable if it's reliable. As already noted, the ten round standard 12ga mags are huge; they take up a lot of belt/plate carrier space. It's been quite a while but I seem to recall there was some effort put into rimless 12ga shells some years back when some companies were looking at mag fed shotguns for the military contract that the 590 won as well as developing specialty shells (exploding shells for barrier penetration). I want to say they were essentially high brass looking but with a rimless design for regular shells (buck and slug) and the whole shells were brass for the specialty rounds. I can't recall where I saw them though.... I'm apparently getting old. 
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Originally Posted By backbencher: I think we'll end up w/ skinny single stacks of mini-shells. 5-7 rnds, like a deep MP5 mag. Aguila says 1400# of energy for their mini slugs. That’s still better than a 44 mag.  An AR12 with a stick mag of 10 mini slugs would be pretty wicked. |
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Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Aguila says 1400# of energy for their mini slugs. That’s still better than a 44 mag. An AR12 with a stick mag of 10 mini slugs would be pretty wicked. I don't see that idea taking off anytime soon. At least, not until "mini shells" become more standardized and produced by more than 2 companies. People aren't really gonna want to buy a 12ga that only works if you can find super special ammo like that. And they're really gonna need to step up the variety of loadings for the mini shells to cover more of what you can get in normal size shells. |
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Originally Posted By sandboxmedic: It's been quite a while but I seem to recall there was some effort put into rimless 12ga shells some years back |
Logically, why haven’t box mag fed shotguns taken off? (Page 1 of 2)
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