Hi y'all,


I am acquiring some 7.62 NATO M61 AP tips, and my seller is offering me (same price) a choice between the Israeli IMI-production projectiles, and U.S.-made Lake City projectiles.  I am quite familiar with the Israeli offering, and while no AP tips could be called "common" at all anymore, the Israeli model is certainly the one almost always encountered for reloading in this country.  

I have a good bit of experience and have worked up loads for the Israeli projectiles, and so I know them well.  These are the ones that sometimes don't have a painted tip, and have the double cannelure, apparently for loading as either .30-06 or 7.62 NATO ammo.  I have also sectioned them and tested them, and they perform well, though I am a bit confused about the blunt tip of the penetrator core, as it seems that a spearpoint shape (like the .30-06 M2 AP) would be more effective.  I also am not a big fan of the steel jackets on the Israeli projectiles.  While this is NOT for blasting ammo, and I am sure that the few test rounds I have fired did not have an adverse effect on my chrome-lined barrels, I still prefer to shoot projectiles with a brass jacket.

Concerning the Lake City M61 projectile, on the other hand, I have basically no knowledge.  My seller sent me pictures of them, and they have just 1 cannelure, a very pronounced boat tail, and a black-painted tip.  I have heard of the FN, Hirtenberger, and Bofors designs of 7.62 NATO AP (I believe the Bofors is a different design and designation, while the FN and Hirtenberger are types of M61), but until now have never even read that there is a Lake City design.  Perhaps it is not a different design, and is just a projectile of either the FN (spearpoint penetrator) or Hirtenberger (blunt tip, the type our Israeli friend produce) produced at Lake City, but I am hoping someone here has experience or insight into Lake City M61 tips.  What I would really like is to see a picture of a sectioned one of those bullets for a look at the core, and also to know whether the jacket material is steel or brass.

I am leaning toward the Lake City because it looks so nice, is American-made, may have a softer jacket, may contain a better-penetrating core, and is just plain cool, but I want to hear some input from y'all fine folks before I make my decision.

Thanks in advance!

Well... Me being me, I would buy X amount of both and see what shoots best out of whatever rifle they will be shot out of. Are these demilled/pulls or new?

FPNI.... accuracy trumps all.  

Google is your friend as there are ALOT of cross section thrreads out there.  

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ammo_Cross_Sections/index.htm

Accuracy is exactly what I'm after, and my 20" AR-10 prints excellent groups with the load I've worked up using the Israeli tips.  However, velocity is pretty important with AP stuff, and being able to get both is great.

I didn't end up finding that stuff, and also, I don't use Google.  I don't trust those anti-American leftist (I know, redundant) scum with my personal information, and CERTAINLY not with my searches on gun stuff.

Fair enough...... but then they know you have logged on here...... so.......  ?

So you want others to do the work (and get tracked) and post links here so you can look at them?  
But you'll still end up on "gun sites"  like you are now............
So I'm not sure how I can help further help with your request:
"...What I would really like is to see a picture of a sectioned one of those bullets for a look at the core, and also to know whether the jacket material is steel or brass....."
 

@wolfgangross since I understand one might call him an expert on this subject.

My Israeli m61 load follows. Remington surplus case from the 60's, cci large rifle mag primer, 43 grains xbr8208.  2.80 oal. 2860 fps from a 22 inch bartlein barreled custom .308 with no pressure signs.  Never chronyd it in my FAL, but I'd bet it will clock in about 2800 gove or take.  Runs about 1.5 moa.  As always, Work up safely.

Thanks a lot, that would be awesome!

@wolfganggross ** extra G in there.

When I was in the military I had a huge cartridge collection. I've got 5 of the 7.62 NATO M61 cartridges from the US. Original ones at that. Where is a good source for the bullets?  I see them here from time to time but I miss out on them. I also had some Israeli, some FN and even a few Portuguese. They all had the double cannelure as you mentioned. The M61's look like the .30 M2 AP to me. If anybody has any links to some of either of these I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

Use the tacked "where to find" thread at the top of the page to ask WTF questions, don't get this thread locked.

Sweet, and thanks for your service!  Did you end up sectioning any of those?  The Israeli M61s I had taken apart showed a blunt, "Hirtenberger-style" core, but on here I am learning that some "Israeli/Portuguese" projectiles have the pointed FN-style core.

The link I posted above is from Wolfganggross:

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ammo_Cross_Sections/index.htm

Those are his...... Wolfganggross........  

My izzy M61's are pointed.

I never got into sectioning any of them.