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Posted: 6/3/2024 5:55:36 AM EDT
| What can be expected from a newer production Ruger Mini 14 accuracy wise? |
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Originally Posted By cschaeff: The new ones are pretty good. The old ones sucked. I've owned both. The new one shoots better than most people using it. Buy with confidence. |
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Many folks complain about the accuracy of ancient "Pencil-Barrel" Mini-14s. Let's dismiss anecdotal comments from folks who can't shoot accurately. Let's dismiss comments from folks who shot Mini-14's with damaged muzzle rifling due to improper cleaning tools/techniques. A damaged muzzle plays havoc with accuracy on any firearm. So, let's understand that the original Mini-14 was designed as a lightweight Carbine, and NOT a Battle Rifle. This "lightweight barrel" aspect, as regards the "Pencil Barrel" kinda worked against tight, rapid-fire shot groups. It was a deliberate "trade-off" against weight. Again, the Mini was not designed as a "Battle Rifle". When the Mini-14 was introduced, it was most often compared against the similar (and then-common/inexpensive) M-1 .30 Cal Carbine. Most reviewers back then considered the Mini-14 as a considerable improvement over the M-1 Carbine. Most modern reviewers will say the same. Suggest that if you have a Mini-14 that fails in accuracy, examine the rifling at its muzzle. if not sharp, do a DIY muzzle re-crown. Also, determine the Rate-of-Twist of your Mini's barrel; links abound. Try to begin to use the "optimal" bullet weight for your particular Mini-14's barrel/ROT. Lastly, Ruger is "diminishing" support for some early Minis. If you have a "problematic' Mini, send it back to Ruger NOW, before it's no longer supported. Strongly suggest that you ask Ruger to supply "fitted" factory parts if/when sending the Mini back to Ruger. Your Owner's Manual, available at ruger.com, will instruct as to essential "fitted' spare parts. |
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Originally Posted By raf: Many folks complain about the accuracy of ancient "Pencil-Barrel" Mini-14s. Let's dismiss anecdotal comments from folks who can't shoot accurately. Let's dismiss comments from folks who shot Mini-14's with damaged muzzle rifling due to improper cleaning tools/techniques. A damaged muzzle plays havoc with accuracy on any firearm. So, let's understand that the original Mini-14 was designed as a lightweight Carbine, and NOT a Battle Rifle. This "lightweight barrel" aspect, as regards the "Pencil Barrel" kinda worked against tight, rapid-fire shot groups. It was a deliberate "trade-off" against weight. Again, the Mini was not designed as a "Battle Rifle". When the Mini-14 was introduced, it was most often compared against the similar (and then-common/inexpensive) M-1 .30 Cal Carbine. Most reviewers back then considered the Mini-14 as a considerable improvement over the M-1 Carbine. Most modern reviewers will say the same. Suggest that if you have a Mini-14 that fails in accuracy, examine the rifling at its muzzle. if not sharp, do a DIY muzzle re-crown. Also, determine the Rate-of-Twist of your Mini's barrel; links abound. Try to begin to use the "optimal" bullet weight for your particular Mini-14's barrel/ROT. Lastly, Ruger is "diminishing" support for some early Minis. If you have a "problematic' Mini, send it back to Ruger NOW, before it's no longer supported. Strongly suggest that you ask Ruger to supply "fitted" factory parts if/when sending the Mini back to Ruger. Your Owner's Manual, available at ruger.com, will instruct as to essential "fitted' spare parts. I have a 180 series Mini that wouldn't shoot for shit. I followed most of the fudd conventional advice about struts, crown, shimming and even gas block pressure and guess what it did absolutely nothing other than lighten my wallet. Now what actually did work is chopping the barrel. After I cut the barrel down to 14.5 and pinned/welded a brake, the gun magically went from 4-5 MOA to about 1.5 - imagine that. |
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Originally Posted By PRYDE: I have a 180 series Mini that wouldn't shoot for shit. I followed most of the fudd conventional advice about struts, crown, shimming and even gas block pressure and guess what it did absolutely nothing other than lighten my wallet. Now what actually did work is chopping the barrel. After I cut the barrel down to 14.5 and pinned/welded a brake, the gun magically went from 4-5 MOA to about 1.5 - imagine that. Originally Posted By PRYDE: Originally Posted By raf: Many folks complain about the accuracy of ancient "Pencil-Barrel" Mini-14s. Let's dismiss anecdotal comments from folks who can't shoot accurately. Let's dismiss comments from folks who shot Mini-14's with damaged muzzle rifling due to improper cleaning tools/techniques. A damaged muzzle plays havoc with accuracy on any firearm. So, let's understand that the original Mini-14 was designed as a lightweight Carbine, and NOT a Battle Rifle. This "lightweight barrel" aspect, as regards the "Pencil Barrel" kinda worked against tight, rapid-fire shot groups. It was a deliberate "trade-off" against weight. Again, the Mini was not designed as a "Battle Rifle". When the Mini-14 was introduced, it was most often compared against the similar (and then-common/inexpensive) M-1 .30 Cal Carbine. Most reviewers back then considered the Mini-14 as a considerable improvement over the M-1 Carbine. Most modern reviewers will say the same. Suggest that if you have a Mini-14 that fails in accuracy, examine the rifling at its muzzle. if not sharp, do a DIY muzzle re-crown. Also, determine the Rate-of-Twist of your Mini's barrel; links abound. Try to begin to use the "optimal" bullet weight for your particular Mini-14's barrel/ROT. Lastly, Ruger is "diminishing" support for some early Minis. If you have a "problematic' Mini, send it back to Ruger NOW, before it's no longer supported. Strongly suggest that you ask Ruger to supply "fitted" factory parts if/when sending the Mini back to Ruger. Your Owner's Manual, available at ruger.com, will instruct as to essential "fitted' spare parts. I have a 180 series Mini that wouldn't shoot for shit. I followed most of the fudd conventional advice about struts, crown, shimming and even gas block pressure and guess what it did absolutely nothing other than lighten my wallet. Now what actually did work is chopping the barrel. After I cut the barrel down to 14.5 and pinned/welded a brake, the gun magically went from 4-5 MOA to about 1.5 - imagine that. Some have claimed that the 180 series of Minis was considerably more accurate than later series Minis which were very different in construction. I have heard this from at least a couple of folks who own and shoot both. They supplied side-by-side pix of the component parts that were changed beginning with the 181 series Mini, and the differences are both obvious and significant. Really, two different Minis. I'd be very interested as to how you tinkered in adjusting "gas block pressure" on your 180 series Mini. Please feel free to expand on this with as much detail as possible. It's too bad that you wound up "chopping the barrel" on your 180 series Mini-14. They are relatively scarce, being the first year of production, and when sold often fetch surprising prices-- if unmolested. @PRYDE |
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Originally Posted By raf: It's sometimes the case that "chopping" the Mini-14 "Pencil Barrel" will improve accuracy. Even an "unchopped" Pencil Barrel often benefits from some additional mass at the muzzle, like the Choate combo front sight/muzzle device. Be that as it may, "chopping the barrel" is considered by many to be a "last ditch" modification, since it is irreversible and reduces the effective range of the Mini-14. Maybe the crown of the original barrel was damaged, and cutting the barrel gave you a new crown. Some have claimed that the 180 series of Minis was considerably more accurate than later series Minis which were very different in construction. I have heard this from at least a couple of folks who own and shoot both. They supplied side-by-side pix of the component parts that were changed beginning with the 181 series Mini, and the differences are both obvious and significant. Really, two different Minis. I'd be very interested as to how you tinkered in adjusting "gas block pressure" on your 180 series Mini. Please feel free to expand on this with as much detail as possible. It's too bad that you wound up "chopping the barrel" on your 180 series Mini-14. They are relatively scarce, being the first year of production, and when sold often fetch surprising prices-- if unmolested. Couple of things that need to be addressed here: You are making a couple of assumptions that are incorrect and have been factually proven by modern testing. 1- Crown: Yes I did in fact clean up the crown prior to chopping it and it had little to no effect, see this article posted in 2018 that pretty much proves that a crown only has a negligible effect on accuracy. 1 MOA groups with bad crown 2- "Effective range": ask yourself, if your "effective range" on your gun is 600y but you are shooting 4-5 inch groups at 100y, how effective is your gun? Testing on this site has proven that 11.5 inch AR15 barrels are effective out to about 300 yards. Are you going to be "effective" shooting 25 inch groups at that range with a mini-14? The actual loss of velocity from 18" to 14.5" is only about 200 fps, which is not enough to make a difference within the actual usable range of the gun effective range per barrel length I appreciate the effort you put forth to try and help others but it would probably do you some good to critically think for yourself about some of the recommendations you make, instead of parroting incorrect information that has been shared on dying legacy forums for decades. The conventional wisdom to fix accuracy by "evenly torqueing the gas block" and "buying a barrel strut" is wrong and has always been wrong and many poor souls have spent money chasing bad advice to no positive effect. |
| I had an early production Mini-14 that I glass bedded into the action, and sent the trigger off to have a trigger job done. After all that, it regularly shot 1.25-1.5 inches at 100 yards. Most groups were around 1.5 inches with a rare group a wee bit under 1.25", and occasional groups 1.75-2". I wish I had known that I had a rifle with exceptional accuracy (for an early Mini-14) before I sold it. |
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Originally Posted By PRYDE: Couple of things that need to be addressed here: You are making a couple of assumptions that are incorrect and have been factually proven by modern testing. 1- Crown: Yes I did in fact clean up the crown prior to chopping it and it had little to no effect, see this article posted in 2018 that pretty much proves that a crown only has a negligible effect on accuracy. 1 MOA groups with bad crown 2- "Effective range": ask yourself, if your "effective range" on your gun is 600y but you are shooting 4-5 inch groups at 100y, how effective is your gun? Testing on this site has proven that 11.5 inch AR15 barrels are effective out to about 300 yards. Are you going to be "effective" shooting 25 inch groups at that range with a mini-14? The actual loss of velocity from 18" to 14.5" is only about 200 fps, which is not enough to make a difference within the actual usable range of the gun effective range per barrel length I appreciate the effort you put forth to try and help others but it would probably do you some good to critically think for yourself about some of the recommendations you make, instead of parroting incorrect information that has been shared on dying legacy forums for decades. The conventional wisdom to fix accuracy by "evenly torqueing the gas block" and "buying a barrel strut" is wrong and has always been wrong and many poor souls have spent money chasing bad advice to no positive effect. Originally Posted By PRYDE: Originally Posted By raf: It's sometimes the case that "chopping" the Mini-14 "Pencil Barrel" will improve accuracy. Even an "unchopped" Pencil Barrel often benefits from some additional mass at the muzzle, like the Choate combo front sight/muzzle device. Be that as it may, "chopping the barrel" is considered by many to be a "last ditch" modification, since it is irreversible and reduces the effective range of the Mini-14. Maybe the crown of the original barrel was damaged, and cutting the barrel gave you a new crown. Some have claimed that the 180 series of Minis was considerably more accurate than later series Minis which were very different in construction. I have heard this from at least a couple of folks who own and shoot both. They supplied side-by-side pix of the component parts that were changed beginning with the 181 series Mini, and the differences are both obvious and significant. Really, two different Minis. I'd be very interested as to how you tinkered in adjusting "gas block pressure" on your 180 series Mini. Please feel free to expand on this with as much detail as possible. It's too bad that you wound up "chopping the barrel" on your 180 series Mini-14. They are relatively scarce, being the first year of production, and when sold often fetch surprising prices-- if unmolested. Couple of things that need to be addressed here: You are making a couple of assumptions that are incorrect and have been factually proven by modern testing. 1- Crown: Yes I did in fact clean up the crown prior to chopping it and it had little to no effect, see this article posted in 2018 that pretty much proves that a crown only has a negligible effect on accuracy. 1 MOA groups with bad crown 2- "Effective range": ask yourself, if your "effective range" on your gun is 600y but you are shooting 4-5 inch groups at 100y, how effective is your gun? Testing on this site has proven that 11.5 inch AR15 barrels are effective out to about 300 yards. Are you going to be "effective" shooting 25 inch groups at that range with a mini-14? The actual loss of velocity from 18" to 14.5" is only about 200 fps, which is not enough to make a difference within the actual usable range of the gun effective range per barrel length I appreciate the effort you put forth to try and help others but it would probably do you some good to critically think for yourself about some of the recommendations you make, instead of parroting incorrect information that has been shared on dying legacy forums for decades. The conventional wisdom to fix accuracy by "evenly torqueing the gas block" and "buying a barrel strut" is wrong and has always been wrong and many poor souls have spent money chasing bad advice to no positive effect. With all due respect, I do not believe I am or have been "...parroting incorrect information...". I have done these mods myself and have seen the positive changes in accuracy for myself. Moreover, there numerous other folks who can say the same thing. Since you are "skeptical" of my statements, I invite you invite you to go to both of these forums and start a thread there with your statements above as a basis. See what you think of the responses from the folks who will eventually show up and have done many of the same mods I've suggested to their personal Minis. Fair enough? 1) Ruger Forum and 2) PerfectUnion |
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Originally Posted By raf: I read your post and the two links supplied with great care. With all due respect, I do not believe I am or have been "...parroting incorrect information...". I have done these mods myself and have seen the positive changes in accuracy for myself. Moreover, there numerous other folks who can say the same thing. Since you are "skeptical" of my statements, I invite you invite you to go to both of these forums and start a thread there with your statements above as a basis. See what you think of the responses from the folks who will eventually show up and have done many of the same mods I've suggested to their personal Minis. Fair enough? 1) Ruger Forum and 2) PerfectUnion The information presented in those 2 links refutes the incorrect statements you have been making, and you have not and continue not to address the merits of those statements. Instead you are asking me to go onto another forum to start a debate with other people who are just as stubborn and set in the old incorrect ways of thinking as you are. I appreciate the offer but no thanks. |
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Originally Posted By PRYDE: I have a 180 series Mini that wouldn't shoot for shit. I followed most of the fudd conventional advice about struts, crown, shimming and even gas block pressure and guess what it did absolutely nothing other than lighten my wallet. Now what actually did work is chopping the barrel. After I cut the barrel down to 14.5 and pinned/welded a brake, the gun magically went from 4-5 MOA to about 1.5 - imagine that. Originally Posted By PRYDE: Originally Posted By raf: Many folks complain about the accuracy of ancient "Pencil-Barrel" Mini-14s. Let's dismiss anecdotal comments from folks who can't shoot accurately. Let's dismiss comments from folks who shot Mini-14's with damaged muzzle rifling due to improper cleaning tools/techniques. A damaged muzzle plays havoc with accuracy on any firearm. So, let's understand that the original Mini-14 was designed as a lightweight Carbine, and NOT a Battle Rifle. This "lightweight barrel" aspect, as regards the "Pencil Barrel" kinda worked against tight, rapid-fire shot groups. It was a deliberate "trade-off" against weight. Again, the Mini was not designed as a "Battle Rifle". When the Mini-14 was introduced, it was most often compared against the similar (and then-common/inexpensive) M-1 .30 Cal Carbine. Most reviewers back then considered the Mini-14 as a considerable improvement over the M-1 Carbine. Most modern reviewers will say the same. Suggest that if you have a Mini-14 that fails in accuracy, examine the rifling at its muzzle. if not sharp, do a DIY muzzle re-crown. Also, determine the Rate-of-Twist of your Mini's barrel; links abound. Try to begin to use the "optimal" bullet weight for your particular Mini-14's barrel/ROT. Lastly, Ruger is "diminishing" support for some early Minis. If you have a "problematic' Mini, send it back to Ruger NOW, before it's no longer supported. Strongly suggest that you ask Ruger to supply "fitted" factory parts if/when sending the Mini back to Ruger. Your Owner's Manual, available at ruger.com, will instruct as to essential "fitted' spare parts. I have a 180 series Mini that wouldn't shoot for shit. I followed most of the fudd conventional advice about struts, crown, shimming and even gas block pressure and guess what it did absolutely nothing other than lighten my wallet. Now what actually did work is chopping the barrel. After I cut the barrel down to 14.5 and pinned/welded a brake, the gun magically went from 4-5 MOA to about 1.5 - imagine that. What does your 180 weigh now that you've chopped it? Have heard the 180 series is significantly lighter than its sisters. |
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Originally Posted By PRYDE: I have a 180 series Mini that wouldn't shoot for shit. I followed most of the fudd conventional advice about struts, crown, shimming and even gas block pressure and guess what it did absolutely nothing other than lighten my wallet. Now what actually did work is chopping the barrel. After I cut the barrel down to 14.5 and pinned/welded a brake, the gun magically went from 4-5 MOA to about 1.5 - imagine that. I have an SBR Mini-14 that was a pencil GB - cut it to 13 (I think) to make a AC556K folder clone - It shoots very well despite short sight radius. It might be because less whip with the short barrel. |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: What does your 180 weigh now that you've chopped it? Have heard the 180 series is significantly lighter than its sisters. The 4 inch barrel stub I cut off the end weights 3.6 ounces. It is quite a handy gun with the short barrel. |
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Originally Posted By PRYDE: The information presented in those 2 links refutes the incorrect statements you have been making, and you have not and continue not to address the merits of those statements. Instead you are asking me to go onto another forum to start a debate with other people who are just as stubborn and set in the old incorrect ways of thinking as you are. I appreciate the offer but no thanks. Originally Posted By PRYDE: Originally Posted By raf: I read your post and the two links supplied with great care. With all due respect, I do not believe I am or have been "...parroting incorrect information...". I have done these mods myself and have seen the positive changes in accuracy for myself. Moreover, there numerous other folks who can say the same thing. Since you are "skeptical" of my statements, I invite you invite you to go to both of these forums and start a thread there with your statements above as a basis. See what you think of the responses from the folks who will eventually show up and have done many of the same mods I've suggested to their personal Minis. Fair enough? 1) Ruger Forum and 2) PerfectUnion The information presented in those 2 links refutes the incorrect statements you have been making, and you have not and continue not to address the merits of those statements. Instead you are asking me to go onto another forum to start a debate with other people who are just as stubborn and set in the old incorrect ways of thinking as you are. I appreciate the offer but no thanks. You may have an "issue" with my personal comments (or even with me, personally) but investigating other sites/forums which contain posts by very knowledgeable folks can't hurt you and may inform you. You direct refusal to do this reasonable suggestion suggests a distinct bias on your part, and an unwillingness to see new facts as they appear. One of us may be mired in the past but submit it's not me. As it is, I regretfully consider your Ruger Mini comments as to be ill-informed and very mistaken comments. No Personal insult intended. |
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Originally Posted By TonyRumore: I imagine if we were to take two 4" Mini's and modified them both with all the go-to accurizing tricks, that one might become a 2" gun and the other might remain a 4" gun. Tony |
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| My 584 Series gun is shooting 1.5"-2" groups at 100yds, bulk/crap, brass 55gr fmj. Gun is factory, replaced handguard and loosened up gas block screws, WAAAAY too tight from factory. I sighted in with Leupy 3x10x40 X3 for accuracy check, some groups were 1.25". Gun now wears Romeo5 red dot/GG&G mount, prefer the lighter set up. |
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Originally Posted By jenk009: My 584 Series gun is shooting 1.5"-2" groups at 100yds, bulk/crap, brass 55gr fmj. Gun is factory, replaced handguard and loosened up gas block screws, WAAAAY too tight from factory. I sighted in with Leupy 3x10x40 X3 for accuracy check, some groups were 1.25". Gun now wears Romeo5 red dot/GG&G mount, prefer the lighter set up. Many users have claimed improved accuracy after torquing Gas block screws to about 25 In/Lbs. |
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Originally Posted By birdbarian: This isn't GD. Correct, the Armory has a higher standard of performance and documentation. The standard of performance and standardization of target used here was created by Molon, with his "white paper" called "The trouble with 3 shot groups". 4/24/2006, (how about that). When I say that my Mini 14 does "X" the procedure I use is based on the teaching of Molon's paper. Molon's teaching guides the shooter to be able to shoot well and be able to repeat the results on demand. Shooting well and consistently is the essence of a good shooter. I am a better rifleman as I use the methods shared by Molon. I still have a ways to go..... |
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Originally Posted By raf: This. A lot of accuracy depends on the quality of the ammo used, but this is true of most any firearm. Originally Posted By raf: Originally Posted By cschaeff: The new ones are pretty good. The old ones sucked. I've owned both. The new one shoots better than most people using it. Buy with confidence. This. I reload my own ammo. I only found one load of factory ammo My Mini's have liked. It was Chicom. Obviously, it is no longer imported. Any factory ammo I buy is for the brass. kwg |
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