Obviously it depends and there is a threshold. However a lot of packs geared towards the military are hellishly expensive and many users still end up going back to the ALICE format. For the right price its ruggedness and simplicity still takes the win. The external pouches allow for practical organization and ease of access, by adding extra pouches or a MOLLE compatible hybrid system one can take organisation to the next level. For someone like me that always meant simple things like spending my 15 minute break getting a quick brew on or doing foot admin rather than spending almost all of it unpacking and repacking my main pack to get some or other item. It really helps having necessary items organised and accessible in the dark so you don't end up with your pack contents strewn around. For me and I suspect many a hybrid concept ie traditional ALICE  with added PALS is the sweet spot. Additionally if you update the suspension system and add load lifters (to the pack itself) not the frame there's not much that a modern system can offer that supercedes the balance of ruggedness and ease  of use over the ALICE.

I have a very simple concept for eliminating the one glaring shortfall of the ALICE system, which is the fact that the frame is only suited to people of average height and hope to work with a fabricator to make a reality soon.
As someone said, the manufacturer who can develop and build quality versions and sell these at an affordable will be on to something. There will be huge crossover appeal with for instance the Bushcrafting community etc.

BECAUSE WE HAVE TO HAVE THE BEST THAT'S WHY.

Plus looking cool in the apocalypse is 90% of surviving.  

Honestly, I'd be happy with my Hill People Gear packs if I weren't trying to integrate them with a set of belt kit.  My bigger HPG rucks won't work with a set of belt kit, so I'm re-thinking my whole gear setup.

I really like my crossfire pack, at least the frame and suspension.  The bag is NOT bad, it's 90% of what I want, I'd actually be ok with it.  However, it's not QUITE large enough, and I can't add all the pouches exactly where I want.  So I'm re-thinking that.  But that's down the road.  Right now it's my main ruck for belt kit related work.  

The Medium ALICE is a project I'm working on, because I don't have a good 'patrol pack'.  Something between the minimalist assault pack setup I have and my Crossfire ruck.  I have a HPG pack (the Umlindi) that technically would work, but it doesn't have any exterior pouches that I'd like to have for that kind of thing.  I have a British surplus NI patrol pack and an oldschool Becker Patrol Pack, but without the frame liner.  Those technically would work, but I do want something nicer.  I'd actually consider one of the new Becker packs, the Bongo Gear ones, or one of the British patrol packs, but since I am sewing now, I might as well sew me up something there, especially if other people want a few, doing some for them will pay for my pack.  I'm going to do the modded medium alice on a frame, and eventually convert that design over to one with internal stays to eventually make an internal framed patrol pack, see which one I end up liking the best.  So because of my sewing, I'm a bit different than other people.  

I think a smartly modded medium alice will make a great patrol pack.  Something akin to the British gucci packs, the munro and such packs I think they are called?  Something of a mix between those, a medium ALICE, and a becker patrol pack.  I'm going to play around with them on a frame at first, then see about the internal framed ones.

This.  Go price out a patrol pack that is well made and that has a suspension that is more than just a frame sheet.  A new production commercial one, not a military surplus one.  (there are a few good, quality surplus packs out there that fill this role decently if you are on a budget.  Go get a British surplus NI Patrol Pack, you can get them in good condition for $50-80.  If you want to stay on a budget and make it gucci, get a couple PLCE utility pouches for $10-15 each and sew them to the front of the pack, you can do it by hand, it's not hard.  That's a solid little setup for carrying on top of belt kit for $100.  Seriously.  This or a surplus medium ALICE with a couple mods (MOLLE 2 straps and belt) is the way to go on a budget)

Anyways, a new production commercial pack is going to cost you $$$$$$.  Especially US made ones.  

Most of the good patrol packs - the medium ALICE sized stuff - is going to be similarish to an ALICE anyways.  Look at the British Munro packs - they are basically a Medium ALICE covered with PALS instead of pouches.  The modded ones, they just add 3 pouches like on an ALICE, along with some other stuff.  

The Becker Patrol pack is a heavily modded Medium ALICE, basically.  

The question is, do you want an external frame or internal stays?  Pros and cons to both, especially if running a belt kit.

Here's a Platatac SPUR Patrol Pack.  It's basically a Medium ALICE, but with zippers instead of the flapped top.  4 external pouches instead of 3.  Different suspension system, kinda a hybrid internal / external frame thing.  $390.00 new.  

Is there anything I can use to treat the inside of a pack lid to fix this?

Attached File


Or is it just grab a stiff brush and scrub it all off?

Scrub it all off.

They have replacement panels specifically to replace that piece.  Someone is selling them on ebay.  It's a relatively easy swap from what I can tell.

Otherwise just scrub it off.  It's the waterproof coating they used back in the day falling apart and flaking off the inside of the lid.  It's worth replacing one way or the other, whether you do it with the made for the lid replacement piece or getting some cordura or something with a waterproof coating to replace it with.

Spray flexseal?





replacement lids exist since 1987 as a standalone military issue item. If you want you can buy a surplus One that Is most likely intact, unstitch the old One and sew the new One.

Flap, pouch, field pack

8465-01-248-0979 for the medium Od One
8465-01-248-0978 for the large od One
8465-01-333-9772 for the (medium or radio carrier) woodland one

Boys, I present to you....the Sacrificial ALICE.  

One of our members on here graciously donated a spare ALICE that is just beat up enough but also intact enough to make a good sacrificial ALICE pack for this project.  I'll be taking it apart and pulling the pattern from it.  

I plan on open sourcing the pattern btw.  (Eventually I'm going to be open sourcing most if not all my patterns along with how-to walkthroughs on making each item)

So mega thanks to the guy who sent it to me.  You know who you are.

I still need to get a few more items to use for T&E on the project.  I've collected most of the stuff I need already.  I still need a 1606 frame and a set of MOLLE 2 straps.  Otherwise I'll be ready to go on the ALICE project as soon as I get this current run of belt kits finished.

2 Pack replacement lids, $11.00

https://www.ebay.com/itm/305066358196

Scrubbed it off.

And if you are so inclined, the Flexseal mod does work decently if you have realistic expectations. It leaves the lid a touch stiff, and will eventually crack and peel, as well. But it does work. Still, for these old sacks, I see a good, sturdy, contractor grade trash bag as being an even easier, and more weather proof, option yet.

I do this with the contractor (or trash compactor, which is better, if you have a small enough pack) bags in all my packs.  It's worth it.

May I suggest also lengthening the pack to the full legth of the frame, or adding an additional "claymore" pouch at the bottom for rain covers or a place to put the trash that needs to be carried out of the AO?

I'm planning on trying to come up with a workable sleep system carrier pouch that will tuck in under the pack and fill the rest of the room on the longer frames like that one.  Which you can use for whatever, not just your sleeping bags.

"Separate" Sleep System Pouch", if not an easily available MOLLE (Molle 1 Sleep System Carrier or MOLLE "Waistpack" for a far smaller system) items ought to be easily attachable/detachable from bottom of pack, assuming pack (like ALICE packs) has/have such provisions.  Such pouch is an "independent" item, capable of "reasonably" protecting the "sleep system" from the elements, and ought to have appropriate "D" rings for independent transport via shoulder strap.

 Bonus points for extra-cost features which will protect sleeping system from complete water immersion.

GI "Dry bags" and very stout (thickness) commercial trash bags are fine while supply is available.

I will be making it compatible with the MOLLE sleep pouch.

And I'm throwing around the idea of an option of making a sleep system pouch out of one of the nice military spec X-pac fabrics - which is truly waterproof and seam-tapable.  IE, you can have a roll-top, completely waterproof sleep system pouch.

You just hafta tok wit da Italian accent...

So the removable sleep system idea. Didn't the early ILBE have something similar?  Or was that the Army system?

Personally (and I say this from years in Boy Scouts and thousands of miles hiked.... I am NOT infantry), I like something sized like the current assault packs (either the FILBE or the MOLLE 2 versions, the smaller daypack ones).  Make them frame compatible- maybe even shrink the frame a little vice squeezing them into the current frames, and plus them up with get to medium ALICE volume.  If those add-ons can attach to the frame, instead of the pack, you can cut weight by not having tons of MOLLE strapping.  Have a single strap to attach to the pack to improve stability (maybe 3 points of attachment  2 to frame and 1 to pack?).

Smaller frame, less straps, and you have a modular system that sheds weight but allows versatility.


Just a thought after a tall beer sitting in the airpory.

Dunno about the ILBE, but the MOLLE 2 system has a removable sleep system carrier pouch.  LBT has a much nicer one.  Also twice as much.

I've dabbled around with the idea of a streamlined assault pack sized pack on a frame, that you can add a bigger over-pack onto as a full sized ruck.  There are a ton of issues with that idea though.  Extra weight, balance issues, access to the smaller pack's contents with the bigger pack on there, etc.  It's still something I keep running around in my head.

I'm going to be playing around with this medium alice idea, with the removable sleep system pouch under the alice.  I'm also going to play around with the idea of a food sustainment pouch to go on top, under the newly floating lid this new ALICE is going to have, nestled in the top of the pouch.  So you can dump you bulky sleep system and your heavy food supply pouch at a basecamp, then roll with your patrol / plused up assault pack (the Medium ALICE)

This will let you extend the medium ALICE to something akin the size of a Large ALICE if you need to, while retaining the classic size of the Medium ALICE.

Just to add:  The MOLLE I pack had a shorter main pack with detachable Sleeping System Carrier, while the MOLLE II had a much longer pack, which had a zippered compartment for the sleeping system.  IIRC, the MOLLE II pack has an internal divider which used adjustable paracord and which could separate top and bottom of pack, or the paracord could be removed altogether and then the MOLLE II was a simple bloody great sack with no internal division.

I don't recall if USMC ILBE pack had a separate Sleep Sys Compartment at its' bottom or not.  Excellent pack if not wearing body armor; possibly one of the best US Mil packs.

USMC FILBE pack similar to Army MOLLE II.  Both current issue.

MOLLE I Sleep Sys Carriers have not been made for some time, although still available at reasonable prices--for now.  Concept is still valid, especially given "adaptation" of such pouches/carriers to the older ALICE platform.  Suggest having new-made ALICE packs be capable of using old MOLLE I Sleep Sys Cariers, as well as possibly new and improved Sleep Sys Carriers.

Being able to integrate "Legacy" gear onto new-built platforms causes some headaches, but expands the potential number of buyers, since at least some of their existing gear is not made obsolete.

Recall that the MOLLE system was specifically designed to incorporate as many ALICE items as possible, with only a few "adaptors" needed for "legacy" items, including ancient M-10 belt-hook items.  Likewise, some MOLLE items could be retrofitted onto ALICE platforms.

In some sense, what you are trying to do with re-imagining an improved ALICE Medium pack is reminiscent of how the MOLLE I pack was originally configured but using an ALICE Medium pack as a basis.  Might be worth your while to take a look at MOLLE I User's Manual for inspiration. See HERE

Allow me to suggest that before going "all-in" on re-creating Improved Alice packs, obtaining a genuine MOLLE I pack might be to your best interest.  Still around but pay close attention to Vendor pix.   The two types of packs require somewhat different frames, but the MOLLE I pack can be mounted on easily obtained plastic frames, as long as the user uses easily available MOLLE Shoulder Straps and Waist Belt.  Typical ALICE pack can use metal or specifically made plastic frames, but affordable shoulder straps and waist belts for most metal frames are scarce.

Suggest you investigate making affordable, DECENT shoulder straps for metal ALICE frames, as that could be a "bread-and-butter" money-maker in the long run.

OK, been blathering long enough.  I'm a big fan of your and Diz efforts.  All best wishes!

Sorry, you're right, MOLLE 1 carrier.

Yea, kinda.  Not specifically, but that flavor is there.  The Medium ALICE is a tried and true pack, especially with a few little tweaks.  

The ability to expand space below it for a sleep system carrier without destroying the qualities of the original ALICE pack would be mint.  

I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel, just tweaking a good design.  I will not, however, compromise what made the original Medium ALICE so good.  

BTW, I found a source for actual 400D High Tenacity packcloth, in Ranger Green and Coyote, for when I get around to making these, if anyone wants to go that route.  It's not expensive either.

I'm also going to potentially play around with 420D ROBIC, which is a new-ish ripstop packcloth that's supposed to be pretty legit.

Well, I've made my "pitch" towards at least examining MOLLE I pack as a possible substitute for a modded ALICE.  It's for sure ALICE packs are "going away" due to age and use.  Unfortunately, so are the folks who used ALICE packs in their youth and have an affinity for them.  IMHO, and owning many iterations of Lg and Med ALICE packs, with various frames, the MOLLE I pack is far better, with a few tweaks, than any ALICE Medium pack.  With Sleeping System Carrier and side-mounted Sustainment Pouches affixed, better than even the LG ALICE pack.  The MOLLE packs have the advantage of using decent, cheap, and available frames, shoulder straps, and load bearing waistbelts.   You owe it to yourself to closely examine a MOLLE I pack and see what you think.

FWIW, I would not be so "insistent" in my remarks if I didn't support your efforts, and also consider you a friend.

This is really true but many still have an affinity for old ALICE.  Including myself.

Naw man, you're fine.  I'm a guy who's very open to legit criticism and ideas / suggestions, as long as people aren't an asshole about it.  

I'll see if I can find a MOLLE 1 pack cheap and take a look at it, never hurts to see if I can find some improvements.

Realize that a modern, modded ALICE is going to be a different beast than a stock ALICE, especially if I can figure out a good sleep system addition for it.  

I'm also planning on using the available frames, shoulder straps, and load bearing waistbands that are out there for the various packs and such.  

Also, I have a guy who's going to pay me to clone a FILBE pack in Woodland camo.  So I'll be playing around with the FILBE too.

MOLLE I packs are getting hard to find, since MOLLE I was superseded by MOLLE II.

Again, posting as a friend and supporter; I would not make so much of a fuss unless I didn't think it worth your considering.

This might be a MOLLE I Main Pack: https://thunderheadoutfitters.com/molle-main-pack-woodland/

There's a few MOLLE I Main packs for sale on eBay.  Inspect pix closely; you are looking for a MOLLE Main Pack without the integral, zippered sleep system compartment found on the MOLLE II Main pack.  Round arc of zipper for sleep system compartment on MOLLE II is a tell-tale.

As always, ask questions of vendor.  Most MOLLE I packs were made in Woodland camo, but some "collectors' items" were made in Desert Camo.

Yeah, I have examples of both.

@raf, I think something is wrong with the hot link. Says site is unsecure/unavailable.

Second link after the edit brings a "404 Error".

OK, thanks. Did not get that msg personally but deleted suspect link.

Understood.  I have many leather USGI 1911 holsters.  Some new-made, some antiques.  All treated with Pecard leather oil to forestall/reduce leather cracking /deterioration.  That said, I have more "modern" holsters for "field " use.

Time marches on.

"thunderhead" link works for me, but "Out of Stock".  Decent reference pic, though.

This popped up in my feed today.  Basically they stripped the pockets off and replaced it with a layer of laser cut molle.  I know we mostly frown upon that, but just figured I would share.

Yea, I saw that too.  Cool idea, even if I'm not a big fan of the laser cut molle.  Out of the box thinking if nothing else.

Has anyone thought of a "hybrid" PALS set-up, with nylon webbing being on top and bottom, and laser cut items in-between?

That would work if you knew exactly what size pouches were going to be on there.

Additionally, it kinda messes with the whole idea of laser cutting - not having to sew webbing on straight.  If the panel were big enough, sure, it would make sense.  But most pouches aren't going to be bigger that a few slots, and doing a row of webbing + a panel + another piece of weebing?  instead of just 3 pieces of webbing.

So once you've worked out your patterning etc, would you be open to making one in classic Tiger Stripe? That's be sick!

Ya, definitely.  I'm planning on Woodland, Multicam, Ranger Green, Atacs ix, Multicam Tropic, and Tiger Stripe to be standard color options.  But I will do them in whatever camo that is available if someone wants.  

I might add more standard color options if demand is there.

OK great! Has to have Tiger Stripe webbing too.

Edit: Multicam Tropic, Tiger Stripe, M-81 hmmm.

Yea, that's the new airborne rucksack.  Got a buddy who has one, he likes it.  It fixes alot of the issues the MOLLE 2 pack had.

It's bigger than the Medium ALICE though.  It's close to a large ALICE.

"* Jump Harness sold separately **May be delivered unassembled"   Probably a blessing for most, as the harness is quite heavy.  If removing the jump harness (as most non-jumpers are likely to do), take many pix and notes since re-installation is quite complicated.  Like many GI packs, the MOLLE 4K can benefit from some user-installed horizontal compression straps with dual-adjust side-release QD buckles.  MOLLE 4K pack may be vertically unsuitable (too long) for most "Belt-Kits".  Perhaps MOLLE "Medium" pack as more suitable.

Y/T vid on rigging MOLLE 4K for jumping:

@marnsdorff I’ve got a goruck bag in the 420d robic nylon.  It’s super light & comfy to wear.  It’s my dad bag so it pulls a lot of duty hauling water & snacks.  I’m the 1 or 2 rain storms I’ve been in with it noting on the inside has gotten wet.  I’ll probably do some spray on waterproofing before fall sports start.

Yea I'm going to play around with that a bit.  

Also I found a source for Ranger Green packcloth, the good stuff like used on the oldschool ALICE packs.  But in Ranger Green.

Awesome.

The Molle 4,000 is legit,  but if you ain't jumping it, get rid of all that shit!  We're probably talking a couple of lbs of webbing and hardware.  I'd even cut out the two attachment straps and metal hardware.  It will also fit nicely on a CF frame, just sayin'.  

How well does the Molle 4000 work with belt kit?

It's not bad.  Some factors to consider.  Which frameset you choose (ALICE, DEI, CF, other); your lumbar measurement (16-17" optimum); type of belt kit (Brit PLCE style optimum); and what load out you have to carry (over 45 lbs will suck no matter what you do).  

So yeah, if you have a decent belt kit, and a decent frameset, the 4K is a decent rucksack.  It's just not quite what I would do, not that that means anything.  I started nibbling around the edges, and ended up taking it completely apart.  But that is just because I prefer to do things a certain way, not that it wouldn't work, as is.  

But for sure, after that first 10K hump, you're gonna want to dump all that cool-guy jump shit.

Resurrect the HSGI Trash Can.