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Posted: 7/6/2025 8:13:39 AM EDT
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Hi All, I haven't done much work with tubes lately, but a customer who knew I was familiar with NV recently asked me to modify a couple of PVS-14s for the 3 pad Chinese tubes, which involves adding an extra pad contact and some wires to connect up the variable gain. Long story short - I'm highly impressed. They hold their own against my Omni V, and perhaps subjectively outperform it. Noise is a bit "angrier" than my Gen3, in that it seems to have a lower persistence, but at full gain ( around 50,000 ) they definitely outperform the older Gen3 compared to the Gen3 at full gain. The PVS-14 is close enough to meet the spec to drive the three pad tubes, so gain control works fine. The Petzval radius seems a little different (eg, Not 38mm) to a normal MX11769, and so there's a little softening of the image at the periphery, but otherwise the performance gain was about what the FOM claimed. They have a slightly different contrast, due to different spectrum characteristics I imagine, and they are white phosphor, but they are definitely up there in darker starlight and indoors. They also have extended spectral sensitivity though I haven't tried closer to 1micron yet - though when asking friends they suggested sensitivity above 1 micron. It's been a while - has anyone detailed their technological performance in recent years? I can't see them taking over. They are selling at a competitive price, by which I mean that even without tariffs they have similar costs to Photonis and US pricing for Gen3, or even higher, but the quality and performance were much better than I've seen in the past. David |
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They're pretty prolific here in Canada due to cost compared to the higher price point that Photonis commands. I've watched them get better and better but I've noticed a few things with some NNVTs I've looked through that make me more hesitant to choose them. While the static image is quite clean, in one of the tubes I looked through dynamic movement creates ghosting. It's almost like there's a refresh rate that isn't fast enough and it's generating ghost outline images behind the real image that goes away once it's back to a static image (which I'm not sure how it's possible in an analogue tube). It could be due to the lens (which were supposed to be milspec Carson lenses so if they were, I doubt the lenses are what is causing it). I've seen it a bit with other NNVT tubes but this particular one was very exaggerated. You mentioned the noise which to my eyes is worse than gen 3 and significantly worse than Photonis (it's incredible how little scintillation Photonis tubes have which creates such a calm image). Image resolution still isn't quite to either Photonis or gen 3. You REALLY get what you pay for in NNVT tubes. If you're willing to pay a LOT for a high quality tube, it'll get close to old gen 3 or Photonis (and at that point, might as well buy Photonis). But there's a lot of junk NNVT tubes that are horrendous in resolution and SNR. Edit: I forgot to mention that buyers also have to pay close attention to which series of NNVT tube they are buying. A lot of NNVT tubes aren't autogated, which should be a default tech level for any modern tube by now. The image and specs of AG NNVT tubes on average are worse than the non-AG NNVT tubes (at least a little while ago when I was looking into them more, perhaps they figured out how to make them better and the AG tubes are on par now). A good buddy of mine (Opfor Night Solutions) wrote up an article about a year ago on the NNVTs: https://nightsolutions.ca/blogs/articles/chinese-gen-3-a-generation-behind-for-now |
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Originally Posted By CDN_Datawraith: They're pretty prolific here in Canada due to cost compared to the higher price point that Photonis commands. I've watched them get better and better but I've noticed a few things with some NNVTs I've looked through that make me more hesitant to choose them. While the static image is quite clean, in one of the tubes I looked through dynamic movement creates ghosting. It's almost like there's a refresh rate that isn't fast enough and it's generating ghost outline images behind the real image that goes away once it's back to a static image (which I'm not sure how it's possible in an analogue tube). It could be due to the lens (which were supposed to be milspec Carson lenses so if they were, I doubt the lenses are what is causing it). I've seen it a bit with other NNVT tubes but this particular one was very exaggerated. You mentioned the noise which to my eyes is worse than gen 3 and significantly worse than Photonis (it's incredible how little scintillation Photonis tubes have which creates such a calm image). Image resolution still isn't quite to either Photonis or gen 3. You REALLY get what you pay for in NNVT tubes. If you're willing to pay a LOT for a high quality tube, it'll get close to old gen 3 or Photonis (and at that point, might as well buy Photonis). But there's a lot of junk NNVT tubes that are horrendous in resolution and SNR. Having seen a few of the Chinese tubes, I would agree with this. If Photonis new high gain is available and within budget, it's definitely the better way to go. |
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You kind of get what you pay for with Chinese merchandise... Hence why it's nice to see some performing tubes - They've come a long way and are roughly where US tubes were performance-wise about 20 years ago. That's a pretty significant step and highlights they are building a huge capability for night fighting - Omni V is plenty capable in the field even if it's not at the top of the recent technology tree. Now I imagine they have the same problem as India where much of their army simply doesn't have access to NODs but that will change... There's some characteristics different though - as I noted, the Petzval radius didn't seem quite right and I'll try to make something up to measure that - so I'm wondering what housings these are for. There was definitely more peripheral blur than I was anticipating, but that's the worst of the operational issues I noted. I can't measure these tubes, but visually the one I tested held it's own against an Omni V, so pretty impressive. The brightness if turned down wasn't stable after power-off-power-on and didn't use the full range of the 180K pot, but otherwise worked well enough. @CDN_Datawraith , thanks for linking - Interesting article. If you know them, mention the GaAs PC is thicker, and doesn't let visible light through, so even if the color is the same, you can tell Gen2 and Gen3 tubes apart by the reflections of the MCP beneath the PC when looking closely at a point light source up close to the tube - eg, With all Gen2 tubes, they are slightly transparent (metal PC) so if you hold your eye next to the PC at an angle, and look at something like an indoor light, you'll see multiple reflections getting dimmer as it goes out in a hexagonal geometric pattern - with Gen3, you only get one image, or maybe a couple of close reflections due to the glass thickness and coatings, but that's it - they only progress in one direction. |
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From what I've heard and people I've talked to, the PLA is going full digital rather than analog NV for their grunts (only their SOF guys get the good analog stuff) and they're working on digital fusion units that they'll give every grunt. As for housings, they were probably designed with Argus housings and lenses in mind, seeing as that's China's largest domestic NV housing and lens manufacturer. Maybe I'm just a snob but the older OMNIs are definitely showing their age. I turned down a pair of pretty nice high spec OMNI VIIs as they couldn't actually match up to my 6 year old Photonis Echo+ when I compared them in person (even ultra low-light). The resolution just wasn't there. How I wish I could get my hands on some of the unicorn L3 Supergain 4000 FOM tubes though... I'll let him know! |
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Originally Posted By CDN_Datawraith: From what I've heard and people I've talked to, the PLA is going full digital rather than analog NV for their grunts (only their SOF guys get the good analog stuff) and they're working on digital fusion units that they'll give every grunt. All the best digital stuff from China is still at Gen1 levels. Nothing even close to Gen2 yet. But high end Gen1 is quite capable when there's some moonlight. And thermal is getting really cheap. If you fusion a near-Gen1 with even a 256x192 thermal, it's going to be effective, though you might need to take the windscreens and windows out of vehicles so they can drive them :) |
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Originally Posted By cj7hawk: I won't make fun of that - some night vision is better than no night vision. Otherwise you end up like the Indian army. All the best digital stuff from China is still at Gen1 levels. Nothing even close to Gen2 yet. But high end Gen1 is quite capable when there's some moonlight. And thermal is getting really cheap. If you fusion a near-Gen1 with even a 256x192 thermal, it's going to be effective, though you might need to take the windscreens and windows out of vehicles so they can drive them :) Never underestimate your adversary... digital without the IR filter can see all the way up to 1200 or 1300 nm... so in some ways is a cheap SWIR... The 300 dollar thermals from Amazon work, they are no IR Patrol... but they work, and sometimes, like you've said, its just having NV vs. not having NVD at all.. G. |
| I have several NNVT setups now, and they rock. I see ZERO reason to spend 2500+ for tubes. Yes, I own several 2500+ intensifier tubes, and there is very little difference to justify spending a lot of money on tubes. |
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They have "Bright Source Protection". I didn't know the diff, so Google AI said: Bright Source Protection (BSP) is a passive system that reduces the overall voltage to the tube, while autogating is an active, rapid on-off pulsing of the power supply. Autogating maintains higher image clarity and sharpness in dynamic lighting conditions, whereas BSP can cause the entire image to dim and blur, and it has a slower reaction time. Bright Source Protection (BSP) How it works: A passive electronic function that reduces the voltage to the photocathode when exposed to bright light, like a streetlight. Effect: Slow to react, it can cause the entire image to dim and bloom or create large halos around bright sources. Primary function: To protect the night vision tube from damage due to sudden, bright light. Autogating How it works: An active system that rapidly pulses the power to the tube on and off at high frequencies, which are imperceptible to the human eye. Effect: Provides the user with a sharper, more defined image by allowing the device to adjust exposure in real-time. It helps prevent temporary blindness and maintains situational awareness in varying light conditions. Primary function: To maintain image clarity and quality in high-light or dynamic environments, while also protecting the tube. |
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I just finished setting up a set of PVS-14 + NNVT Gen2+ tube based bino's for a customer. One of the PVS-14's was dead-on optically - so much so it would be within 1MOA if used as a front-mounted clip on. That's rare, and is purely co-incidental that I noticed that when collimating them. The only question I have about the Gen3 NNVT is around the lifetime of the GaAs photocathode - The US had GaAs in the 60s but couldn't use it due to very short lifetimes. That was originally corrected by the AlO film on the MCP and later by the autogating where if done in a specific way, causes the positive ions to burrow back out of the PC to prevent PC poisoning and giving US Gen3 it's longer lifespans ( around 5000hrs ) by the early 1990s and subsequent Gen4 by the early 2000s when they worked out how to keep the lifespan up without the protective film. Of course, the Chinese probably never developed the film based tech so are more likely to be using autogating. You can detect autogating from outside of the NOD with an oscilloscope and a bit of aluminum foil and a grounding line to the NOD - so it's easy enough to check. I didn't bother with the tubes I had - they are supposed to be autogating, and it's not that difficult to build, especially given the level of technology available in China today. But that alone won't account for the extended lifespan and it will be interesting to see if the Chinese have managed to get their tubes beyond 1000 hrs. |
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As far as I'm aware they are "gen 2" mostly without autogating and mostly with auto brightness shut out. In this regard they are similar to most Russian tubes but with better lp/mm. I did hear a rumour they were a knock off Photonis XR5 tubes or similar. I would be careful buying these without clear information. I have spoken with distributors on two continents and they are very evasive about ABC Vs autogating. In fact some, will tell you its "more or less" the same thing. Edit: Caveat - this info was ~ 9 moths ago so perhaps its out of date. |
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I don't think it's out of date. I think it's the nature of many Chinese sellers to allow the buyer to come to the wrong conclusion if it's in their advantage. Culturally, they don't seem to see that as dishonest since no lies are told and it's the buyer who didn't do their homework. Not all, but when I buy Chinese products, I come to expect Chinese service is a part of the price. That said, if they say it *is* something it generally is, so it's the specs you can see, not the specs you can't that you need to consider. From what I've seen they have Autogating in Gen2 and Gen3, and as with most things, what you pay is what you get. But that's a commercial perspective. From a tactical perspective, they test just fine and have some of the undocumented advantage that Photonis have also, at least in the Gen2. I'd guess they have a very similar technology to what Photonis have and I wonder if they figured it out themselves, or stole it. But in Australia, the Chinese tubes are starting to pick up customers, and the ones I've tried are no slouch, and pass every test I throw at them ( except lifespan, but I'm not about to try accelerated testing... ) |
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