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Posted: 5/26/2024 7:52:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: caduckgunner]
Yes, I know this is kind of a gun question in the night vision forum, but it's a specific to night vision. I currently have a older MI rail, and it's a complete POS. I have tried the fixed MI said to do, but the rail keeps sliding forward off the mounting nut. MI customer service stopped responding to me, so I guess I guess it's time to move on to another handguard. I believe the current issue is the weight from my ATPIAL-C and surefire on the front of the handguard, and the shitty mounting design. So I am looking for something that can hold the weight and mounts to the barrel nut with screws. I'd like to keep the budget some what lower as I just ordered 2 Tanto housing for my ANVIS.
Here are a few I was looking at. Thoughts and recommendations appreciated. Looking for something between 12"-14". No, I won't be buying anything from MI. https://bkingsfirearms.com/shop/ar15handguards/parallax-tactical-super-slim-ffssr-13-5-gen-3-m-lok-handguard/ https://bkingsfirearms.com/shop/ar15handguards/bkf-ar15-mod-1-13-m-lok-handguard/ https://www.primaryarms.com/aero-precision-enhanced-mlok-ar15-handguard-gen-2-black-12.7in I can't find BAR nuts in stock |
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[Last Edit: Inimicalone]
[#1]
I'm using a forward control designs RHF12.8 with a surefire m952v and a holosun ls117ir.
It's rock solid. Eta: it's 205 before shipping and tax. |
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[#3]
Get that Aero handguard coupled with their enhanced upper. The only thing more rigid would be a monolothic upper.
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[#4]
BCM MCMR
But I'm really confused on what is wrong with the MI. I'm not sure what you are describing is a result of "weight" and not simply a user error on the install. MI should be gtg. I don't have one though. The BCMs are locked mechanically from twisting in any direction and can't slide off. They are rock solid. |
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[#5]
RIS II all the things... except Mk12s.
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[#6]
Originally Posted By DR2341: BCM MCMR But I'm really confused on what is wrong with the MI. I'm not sure what you are describing is a result of "weight" and not simply a user error on the install. MI should be gtg. I don't have one though. The BCMs are locked mechanically from twisting in any direction and can't slide off. They are rock solid. View Quote ![]() |
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[Last Edit: WUPHF]
[#7]
Basically any modern handguard, to include newer MI handguards, won’t have that sliding problem.
Frankly, it’s an old, somewhat shitty design. Many cheaper handguards on the market these days utilize a similar pinch type friction fit without anything to physically stop the rail from sliding forward. Stay away from cheap crap and you’ll be fine. If you’re dead set on mounting screws through the handguard into a barrel nut, I vote Noveske. |
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[#8]
Originally Posted By caduckgunner: It's an older MI hand guard, and a shitty design. They sent me this little metal tab to stop the hand guard from sliding forward when I shot. As you can see below it didn't work. This is a known problem with this style of hand guard. Their customer service rep never responded when I asked if there were any other things I could try to stop this from happening. Never heard back, even though I have emailed a couple times, so I will spend my money with someone else. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/83781/IMG_3489_jpeg-3224625.JPG View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By caduckgunner: Originally Posted By DR2341: BCM MCMR But I'm really confused on what is wrong with the MI. I'm not sure what you are describing is a result of "weight" and not simply a user error on the install. MI should be gtg. I don't have one though. The BCMs are locked mechanically from twisting in any direction and can't slide off. They are rock solid. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/83781/IMG_3489_jpeg-3224625.JPG While admittedly not great CS, I highly doubt there’s anything they can tell you nor any parts they can send you that’ll fix the problem. It’s an old, outdated design. Frankly, it’s not a problem you should run into with any brand name manufacturers in 2024. |
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[Last Edit: DDS87]
[#9]
Originally Posted By DR2341: BCM MCMR .... The BCMs are locked mechanically from twisting in any direction and can't slide off. They are rock solid. View Quote No. This is the difference between a light, frail rail seeming "rock solid" because of a tight friction fit on a short, stubby barrel nut with minimal contact area and how easy it is to flex the rail near the end where the aiming device is. ETA: Screwing directly into the upper or barrel nut is not strictly necessary to keep a rail from sliding. The FCD (CMT) fared better but definitely not the stiffest either. Other tests suggest that the MI Nightfighter is rigid only in relation to other MI rails, the Aero Enhanced pseudomonolithic with the matching upper is the best value for this, Wedge Locks do very well, and the SOLGW M89/L89 series is among the best out of non-monolithic designs. |
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[#10]
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[Last Edit: Magsz18]
[#11]
So, you bought an MI handguard that is on the lower end of the price scale and you had issues with it?
You're still looking at sub 100 dollar rails. Why? There's already enough variance in laser accuracy due to the size of the projected dot at distance. Why potentially make things worse with deflection? I'd spend some extra coin for a "proven" system. Geissele MK16. Anything using the Hodge barrel nut/lockup rail design, SOLGW, ZEV, ETC. Or, bypass the rail altogether and go with an optic mount that has a diving board. There are some really good memorial day sales going on right now. So, now's your chance. |
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Mike_Golf says: "You're not an ethical hunter and likely an asshole to boot."
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[#12]
Originally Posted By shenendoah_rifleman: Get that Aero handguard coupled with their enhanced upper. The only thing more rigid would be a monolothic upper. View Quote I'd Agree. I use both the Enhanced Upper, and the BAR Nut on threaded Uppers - both are rock solid. Giant anti-rotation setup at 12'Oclock, and 8 beefy Torqx screws all around. |
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[Last Edit: caduckgunner]
[#13]
Originally Posted By Magsz18: So, you bought an MI handguard that is on the lower end of the price scale and you had issues with it? You're still looking at sub 100 dollar rails. Why? There's already enough variance in laser accuracy due to the size of the projected dot at distance. Why potentially make things worse with deflection? I'd spend some extra coin for a "proven" system. Geissele MK16. Anything using the Hodge barrel nut/lockup rail design, SOLGW, ZEV, ETC. Or, bypass the rail altogether and go with an optic mount that has a diving board. There are some really good memorial day sales going on right now. So, now's your chance. View Quote |
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[#14]
Originally Posted By mickdonaldson: I'd Agree. I use both the Enhanced Upper, and the BAR Nut on threaded Uppers - both are rock solid. Giant anti-rotation setup at 12'Oclock, and 8 beefy Torqx screws all around. View Quote |
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[#15]
Originally Posted By caduckgunner: I bought the handguard years ago. I more bothered by the poor customer service. If the CS guy would have bothered to respond with something as simple as "sorry, but that is why we have change the current design" I would have been fine with it. But no response at all, I just don't need to spend my money there. That is why I am asking for suggestions. I have seen the "diving board" before, but have no idea what it's called to even look it up. And the 3 handguards I posted as examples are all on sale. Granted I don't know what they regularly go for, as the listed price is hardly ever the street price. View Quote Understandable. Once bitten, twice shy. I get it. I'd really shop hard and look at some of the higher end offerings. Bite the bullet, spend an extra hundred and get a rail that you can hammer with if need be. :) As far as the diving boards go: Unity w/ HRF Concepts Skiff Jagerwerkz Kastle w/ diving board. GBRS SC Defense OMM Off of the top of my head, those are a few options to look into. |
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Mike_Golf says: "You're not an ethical hunter and likely an asshole to boot."
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[#16]
Originally Posted By caduckgunner: Seam's no one has BAR nuts in stock, and I am having a hard time finding the handguards with the BAR nut included. If I have to buy a new upper, my cost doubles. At that point, are there any handguards that will work better? I know I saw some geissele for around that price point. View Quote I think you are going to run into problems due to penny pinching. Think of how much you spent on NODs? On the laserbox? Paying $250 instead of $100 for a handguard meant to work with those items as a system is well worth it. The m4e1 upper and handguard together are sub $250, and thats typically what youll be paying for any of the really good handguards anyway. You have to consider you are paying for parts engineered to do things the M16/AR15 was never designed to do, while being ergonomic and lightweight. Its not an easy task either in engineering or production, hence the price increase over the cheap handguards |
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[#17]
Originally Posted By Magsz18: Understandable. Once bitten, twice shy. I get it. I'd really shop hard and look at some of the higher end offerings. Bite the bullet, spend an extra hundred and get a rail that you can hammer with if need be. :) As far as the diving boards go: Unity w/ HRF Concepts Skiff Jagerwerkz Kastle w/ diving board. GBRS SC Defense OMM Off of the top of my head, those are a few options to look into. View Quote Just adding that NoiseFighters released an extended "diving board" riser meant for the same purpose as well. |
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[#18]
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Mike_Golf says: "You're not an ethical hunter and likely an asshole to boot."
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[#19]
SOLGW M89 and L89 are two of the most rigid rails I have ever worked with short of the URX4.
I’ve had no issues with my MK16 rails either. |
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[#20]
Originally Posted By shenendoah_rifleman: I think you are going to run into problems due to penny pinching. Think of how much you spent on NODs? On the laserbox? Paying $250 instead of $100 for a handguard meant to work with those items as a system is well worth it. The m4e1 upper and handguard together are sub $250, and thats typically what youll be paying for any of the really good handguards anyway. You have to consider you are paying for parts engineered to do things the M16/AR15 was never designed to do, while being ergonomic and lightweight. Its not an easy task either in engineering or production, hence the price increase over the cheap handguards View Quote |
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[#21]
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[Last Edit: caduckgunner]
[#22]
......
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[#23]
Originally Posted By caduckgunner: Do you have a link? I don't see it on their website. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By caduckgunner: Originally Posted By DDS87: Just adding that NoiseFighters released an extended "diving board" riser meant for the same purpose as well. It was on a big banner on their site for me. Apparently the CliffhangIR is sold exclusively through Primary Arms: CliffhangIR |
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[#24]
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[#25]
Originally Posted By DDS87: No. This is the difference between a light, frail rail seeming "rock solid" because of a tight friction fit on a short, stubby barrel nut with minimal contact area and how easy it is to flex the rail near the end where the aiming device is. View Quote Sillyness. Yes a quad rail will be stiffer but that is not the question here. You can bend almost any rail. But the only people who put that much torque on the handguard while shooting are high power shooters with a sling and they still deflect the FF tube but there isn't a sighting device on that tube. Basically no one is torque the crap out of their handguards while shooting with a MFAL. They are holding it. The OPs issue is the handguard walking off. The BCMs can't because they have screws mechanically preventing it from sliding forward. That test in the link has about a much merit as a burn down test. |
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[Last Edit: hugh1]
[#26]
I have a AR10 rail similar to yours, it came with a tube of Loctite. A thin coat on the barrel nut before putting the tube on seems to have worked. I've put a couple of thousand rounds through the weapon.
If you want to remove the tube run the bolts in from the nut side putting a peace of steel in the slot and you can jack the thing apart a little then just tap the tube and it will break lose. ![]() Edit; Don't use to much loctite so it does not get down into the threads on the nut. |
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[#27]
Of the rails we / I have used and tested, other than a monolithic or semi-monolithic design (e.g., Cobalt, where the rail is technically a separate part but is designed for a matching proprietary upper with a “sleeve” that the rail locks into), older Geissele designs like the MK 4 / MK 8 (or my personal favorites, the “OG” 416 SMR and MK 1s) as well as the KAC URX4s are among some of the best rails to mount lasers to in terms of rigidity, stability, and minimal deflection, particularly when using barricades, cover, etc.
Doesn’t mean they’re the only ones and there aren’t others, or even potentially ones that are better, but of the ones I’ve tried, they’ve been the best. That being said, unfortunately for most folks unless they happen to be a real KAC fanatic and have all the URX-specific tools, the URX4 is going to more or less be an armorer install, versus a rail most folks with basic AR tools can swap out at home. As for the Geisseles, “Bendy Boi” memes aside, while still good, from a laser mounting-only perspective, the newer MK 13 / MK 16-style Geissele rails are a little less rigid than the older MK 4 / MK 8-style rails, which contributes to them being so light weight and the MK 8s only have four M-LOK “facets” as opposed to the MK 16’s six—but again, if you’re looking at only this one factor in isolation, the older design rails are probably “better.” Something to consider about HK 416-derived and “inspired” handguard designs like the Geissele, is that the 416’s rail and the 416 in general is one a very very few fighting rifles built with handguard laser zero retention as a primary design factor / consideration, because the handguard was initially designed to be removed and replaced during routine servicing of the piston op-rod, for an organization that placed / places an extremely high priority on night vision fighting tools, and especially at the time, IR aiming lasers, which is part of what makes the HK 416 so interesting from a “night fighting” perspective. And while some users may debate the degree of success HK was able to achieve in terms of zero retention during frequent removal and reinstallation, it doesn’t change the fact that the general design is / was inherently designed to optimize aiming laser mounting and maintaining zero, which appears to carry over even into HK 416 “inspired” handguard mounting designs (the Geissele barrel nut is essentially an HK 416 barrel nut adapted to a standard AR upper’s thread configuration and Geissele barrel nut wrenches can be used for the 416 and vice versa, and many many other manufacturers have since come out with rail designs utilizing very similar barrel nuts). ~Augee |
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