So If someone has a paper'ed Form-4'd Pre-86 Dealer Sample Keeper - How do you know if its been switched over to transferable from Dealer Sample?

Call the ATF NFA Branch and ask?

Is the criteria for what qualified been well documented somewhere for reference?

I've heard some say to check them in E-Forms.
Part of me doesn't want to check on mine.
ETA. It wouldn't be on a Form 4. Pre May Dealer Samples are on Form 3s.

Are you asking if your pre-86 becomes a transferable?
It doesn't.. unless I'm missing something.

Also you can't 100% trust the Eform site colors.. I've seen mine change red and not red.

ATF pulled something out of its ass in our favor for once claiming premay guns that spent time a significant amount at LE agency’s are actually transferable now.

This all came down in the last two months but Ian at forgotten weapons said this has been going on behind the scenes with NFATCA and ATF for the last 4 years.

I just sold a beautiful premay sample Uzi back in March at presample prices that apparently is now transferable :/

One of my friends had half a dozen premay’s restrictions removed.

They had to be directly imported by a LE Agency to be eligible.

Here is Ian's video for those out of the loop.

Oh damn.. Got a '82 MP5. That would be inane if it was transferable. I've heard about some premay from a LE being transferable but there was a lot of debate behind it. I'll have to look that up.

I would think Sig rifles, HKs, Beretta PM12s/AR70s, some factory UZIs that were imported for police sales Walther MPLs?- Is there a list???

What about things like Post 68 Madsen M50s imported for movies?  Those count?

I suspect lots of PDs had a wide variety from 68-86.

10 HK53A3 just became fully transferable!  Holy fuck!  I never thought I’d see this happen!


18Z50….soon to have an HK53!

I'm going to a FIOA to check. Been meaning to do that for a while..
I am still questioning the list on eForms.. Has one that I wouldn't have though transferred to the police be unmarked under Restriction.

This is borderline unbelievable. To have the number of transferables increase is great news. Unfortunately I don’t anticipate it having a meaningful impact on prices, but nevertheless, great news.

The now transferrable factory MP5 that sold at Morphy's went for $80k.

It won't lower prices of existing transferables, but will markedly increase the value of those previously pre-86 dealer samples, as seen in the most recent Morphy auction. The thing is, how exactly are folks with "keeper" guns going to know they might have a transferable? I don't imagine a lot of them are following this news. Similarly, as stated here:

https://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?/topic/28590-an-estimated-4000-pre-sample-machine-guns-to-be-re-classified-as-transferable/&do=findComment&comment=256441

Folks who might have one of these 4000 MG's have to manually email the ATF to verify their status. We know the ATF has the ability to re-determine status on their own, as a user on another forum received a letter about their once transferable M60 being reclassified as a dealer sample via a letter. But the odds of a three-letter agency doing that for all 4000? Not a chance.

I confirmed all 4 of my Pre-mays are transferable

Including my M249 Saw

The guy that paid  650,000 for that one transferable SAW isn’t loving this too much

I checked on a HK53 and it didn't have the restricted warning in eForms. I submitted to my trust via eForm 4 yesterday...we'll see what happens.

It would be form 4 if you got it from an FFL who gave up their license before deciding to sell it.

All my Pre-May MGs no longer have restrictions, including silencers and SBS.

I wonder if this also applies to dealer sample SBR, SBS, AOW, and silencers.

This is going to end up fubar.  There will be some people who get fucked and pay extra for some of these that end up back to restricted....or maybe the ATF changes their minds later...or maybe some get marked as transferable by mistake on eforms then people get screwed later.

My risk tolerance is not high enough to mess with these...

The thing is, with enough time it would be hard to tell what guns were previously pre-may unless they are something very specific like an M249 or each transferor keeps a meticulous record for that gun. The MG community already plays with fire with the numerous modern colt M4 receiver guns that are transferable because the company played weird games with serial numbers, among other examples. MG's are not for the risk-averse, especially with the current ATF.

I don't disagree this is generally a high risk game even under the best of conditions.

- Tons of scammers out there trying to take your money.
- Sending tens if not a hundred thousand dollars to somebody for an item you can't historically take possession of for months or years
- Unscrupulous dealers or individual sellers who will purposely conceal mechanical issues, condition, etc. in a willful attempt to defraud a buyer.
- Sellers who were previously taken advantage of (maybe never realized) and are now passing along a gun with an issue to a new buyer.
- Previous guns that manufacturers (Colt, Olympic, etc.), Dealers (Rodman, Greenburg, etc.), or individual owners(RLL to DIASs, HK RR Guns becoming Registered Packs, etc.)  have damaged or destroyed the legal transferable pedigree of guns in a mis-guided attempt to turn lead into gold.
- Machineguns that were "manufactured" under changing guidance and laws over the decades.  You should register this receiver, you should register that part, these parts and receiver are married together, these parts can be separated, you can replace this part but not that part.  
- A mess of an NFRTR where you can't really rely upon the government records.
- An obtuse regulatory agency (BATFE) that loathes the product they regulate.
- Courts have historically taken machineguns have no 2nd Amendment protection so they could all be wiped out with new legislation.

This pre-sample to transferable change now just add a whole new element of risk as the transferable "pool" of machineguns just took on 4000 more guns with long term questionable legal pedigree.

Some will be obvious as there was previously no transferable example (like that HK VP70 on gunbroker).   However other less exotic guns buyers are now going to need to scrutinize if that Thompson they are looking at  is really unquestionably "transferable" or if its a dealer selling a former pre-May gun to an individual who chose not to disclose its historical status change to the buyer.  Some of these guns may even get washed through a couple transfers and the 2nd or 3rd buyer gets left holding that bag if the winds blow back the other way in the future.

Personally  I wouldn't knowingly buy one of these now new transferable / previously pre-may machineguns at historically transferable (and then some) pricing.

Ah ok.
So a guy gives up his license, keeps a Pre May, then decides he doesn't want it a year later. Since he doesn't have a license, he has to form 4 it to another dealer.

Yes, technically he can still have a FFL, but let his SOT lapse, which prevents him from doing a tax-free xfer.

Anyone know if this applies to pre-May MGs that are still owned by LE agencies? Seems like there might be a good number that could become available that are still in agency hands.

It should apply. I think the original objective is to target MG's imported for those agencies specifically. Whether or not these agencies care to transfer them later on is another story.

However, what we're also seeing is a jumble of random pre-May and post-May samples getting transferable status, which is... odd? One thing's for sure: a lot of dealers are going to capitalize on this if they want that risk.

Just to add a little more confusion…

    If a PD purchased them through a dealer, are they samples?  The dealer could have bought demos that are samples, yes, and they’re not transferable.  If the PD liked the demo(s) and said to order them X amount of whatever, technically they are not samples.  The dealer acted as an intermediary for the purchase is all.

    I have no skin in this game currently.  If the opportunity presents itself in the future, I would like to know the details so that I don’t get the shit end of the stick.

My HK53 was changed to transferable.

Out of curiosity, do you know its history and does it fit the narrative of being a direct Police acquisition?

I am just curious as I would like to know the rules of engagement should I happen upon such a gun in the wild - Most of the retired SOTs I ran into at the Atlanta show this week were already well aware of the new changes and pricing accordingly or thinking about it.  Word travels fast in the NFA community around here.

In my case, 10 HK53A3 purchased by a northeastern Ohio sheriff office.  Guns were purchased direct from HK in 1984 and were given to another Sheriff Office in 2005 as unwanted surplus.  Guns were then traded for Glocks in 2016.

Guns were never dealer samples at any time in chain of life.

What are you basing this on, looking at your eForm inventory?  Did the Director sent you a private letter that nobody else has received?   The 1968 import restrictions were not repealed unless you have documentation to the contrary?

Yes.



No, I do not need a letter from anyone to look at the restrictions column on my eForm inventory.



AFAIK, Congress has not repealed 922(l).

You know that eForm inventory is wrong all the time and has been for years.  Post-samples listed with no restrictions is an obvious example.  You also know that the 68 GCA is in effect regardless of what your inventory says.

My physical inventory is actually correct, though it took several inspections to get there. The actual line items like MFG will probably never get corrected.

Is it possible there is a list of them out there?

Anyone have any luck on getting confirmation of status back from ATF? I sent a letter and email a while ago regarding an item owned by my agency and have heard nothing. I have the form showing it came directly from HK to my agency in 1985 so it seems like it should apply to this but I want documentation for when we trade it.

Same as anyone else asking for a list. Not a chance. It’s privileged tax data.

As a LEO? Who knows. ATF hasn’t publicly made a statement to my knowledge. We tested our guns by eforming them to our employees. 33 flipped for us. Approved tax paid transfers. Do you have a local dealer you could transfer it to?

Did you submit a FOIA request or just sent a letter to ATF?

A letter by email to NFA Branch from our armorer

That’s not likely going to get you anywhere. You’ll need to submit a FOIA request.

Ok, I’ll have to look into that

Just a guess, but someone who paid $650K for what amounts to a collectable toy probably isn't going to care if it's worth $650K, $850K or $250K - he just probably wanted the gun for his collection.

Agreed. And if I was in the buyer’s position I would buy another to dollar cost average.

Congrats on the transferable uzi.

Also I say run with letter they gave you and turn that SBS into full auto haha

You might be surprised at what cheap bastards some rich guys are.
There's an old Simpsons episode where Homer has written a software program that Bill Gates wants, and Gates "buys out" Homer Simpson by having a group of thugs beat up Homer until he relinquishes the program.  Gates' comment to Homer, "I didn't get to be the richest man in the world by writing checks to people." (OWTTE)  I've known some people who had that mind set.

ETA: The real Bill Gates has, of course, given away tens of billions of dollars to various charities.

Got my letter back from the ATF, our Pre-86 Dealer Sample Walther Maschinenpistole Kurz (MPK) is not transferrable.  Bummer.