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PSA AAC 55g FMJ versus Midsouth Shooters Varmint Nightmare and H-335- UPDATE POSTED- THEY SHOOT! (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 2/20/2022 8:23:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Landshark9025][Edited]
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Trip info on Page 2 Update on Page 2 - These things shoot really well. Sub MOA from a 55g FMJ is possible. As many of you know, Palmetto State Armory has started selling projectiles. I ordered 1,000 of the 55g FMJ as I wanted to work up a plinking load with H-335. H-335 seems to be more readily available and I'd like to save my 8208-xbr. Currently, my "go-to" 223 load is a 55g SP Midsouth Shooters Supply Varmint Nightmare - which wouldn't surprise me if it was a Hornady 2266 repackaged, over 25g of 8208-xbr. This generally nets me about 1.25-1.5 MOA at 100 yards depending on if I weigh the charges vs. run them through the LnL AP, mixed cases, etc. I consider myself an "intermediate" reloader. I fully understand how to prep brass, weigh charges, etc. I've never gotten really great SDs out of 223, but I've also never used virgin brass or sorted LC brass by year. I will get single digit SD from my Grendel or my 300 BO when making hunting loads. I'm not a great shot, but decent. Summary: Bases of the PSA AAC 55g FMJ are not square. Accuracy is not good at all. 3-4" groups at 100 yards that look more like patterns. I wish I had only ordered 250 of them. The remaining 965 or so I have left will be taking up space until I'm either desperate or have an extra 1,000 primers and some powder to get rid of. Disclaimer: I have no dog in the fight brand wise. I'm a PSA fan, but also a MSS fan. PSA does a LOT for our community so I WANTED these to work as I believe they deserve our support. MSS seems like a nice, family run business. Generally, these retailers are my "go-to" behind my LGS (I always shop local first on everything.) Initial observation: They come packaged in neat ziplock bags of 250 rounds. I pulled 25 at random out of one bag and weighed them and found the weights to be very consistent. Of the 20, the low was 55.1g, the high was 55.2g. This looked promising, but I looked at one standing upright on the scale platform and thought "That doesn't look like it is pointing straight up." So I lined them up on the ceramic stove top and used an Apple trackpad as a straight edge: Attached File Attached File They looked much worse in real life. For comparison, here is 25 Midsouth Varmint Nightmare: Attached File Attached File So, I worked up a load using: Cases - 1x LC, mixed years Primer - CCI #41 Powder - H-335. Starting load of 23.0g, going up in .5g increments to 25.0g. All charges were hand thrown and trickled up using an RCBS 505 scale. Firearm - Home built AR. Seekins 1:8 223 Wylde barrel, Aero Precision upper, PSA Meme lower, 2A lightweight and adjustable BCG, CMMG two stage trigger. I built this gun for new shooters and with 69g SMK is capable of .75 MOA. I shot them in "kind of a" Round Robin in that I shot five rounds of 23.0g with Varmint Nightmare, then five rounds of 23.0g with AAC, then five rounds of 23.5g Varmint Nightmare, then 5 rounds of 23.5g AAC, etc. For a rest I used one of these on a 6' folding table and chair. So, that was pretty steady. I'll post the chrono data, but I'm not sure why my ES and SD are all so high. However, the target tells the tale. I may have to post images on a followup post. 23.0g Varmint Nightmare: Average2651.6 Extreme Spread134 Standard Dev.54.9 Group size: 1.34 AAC: Average2683.6 Extreme Spread51 Standard Dev.21.9 Group size: 3.66 23.5g Varmint Nightmare: Average2767.2 Extreme Spread120 Standard Dev.50.2 Group size: .98. This was my best group. Attached File AAC: Average2786.5 Extreme Spread36 Standard Dev.15.8 Group size: 3.04 For comparison: Attached File One of the holes is obscured by the caliper, but it doesn't matter. Here they are for comparison: Attached File 24.0g Varmint Nightmare: Average2832.8Extreme Spread99 Standard Dev.40.9 Group size: 1.28 AAC: Average2807.8 Extreme Spread85 Standard Dev.33.7 Group size: 4.81 24.5g Varmint Nightmare: Average2891.6 Extreme Spread91 Standard Dev.39.8 Group size: 1.33 AAC: Average2868.6 Extreme Spread74 Standard Dev.27.1 Group size: 4.13 25.0 Varmint Nightmare: Average2948.6 Extreme Spread91 Standard Dev.35.7 Group size: 2.03 This was the worst group and the closest in size to the AAC, however you can see that while mathematically it's "close", visually it's completely different. Attached File AAC: Average2962.8 Extreme Spread96 Standard Dev.39.6 Group size: 3.34 Attached File I'm happy to upload the remaining photos if you all think that would be helpful, but I think the above kind of tells the tale. All are similar when compared side by side. Again, I WANTED these to work because I like PSA and believe they are good people. But for my use, I'll stick with the Varmint Nightmare. ETA: more images. |
There is not a more violent principle in the world than conscience misinformed. - Matthew Henry
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
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Originally Posted By BoSanders: They are new to this whole ammo and components thing.I have no doubt they'll get it figured out. Look how long it took RMR to get their 69g to market. I think there's still some kinks with that one too. |
There is not a more violent principle in the world than conscience misinformed. - Matthew Henry
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
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Those PSA bullets remind me of a bunch of Winchester 55 grain FMJBT bullets I bought years ago. Lead sticking out of the bottom of some, flush on some, a depression (lack of lead) in the bottoms of others. Shot like total crap. Never bought anymore Winchester 55 grain FMJ bullets. With bullets like that it really doesn't matter what powder you try, the accuracy issue it the bullet. |
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Jackets on the varmint soft points are drawn from one direction, jackets on the fmj are drawn from the other. The first leads itself to very consistent bases, the second not at all. You may be a little spoiled by the performance of the soft points, and not as aware that fmj is as bad as it is generally. 2-4 moa with xm193 isn't outside the norm. And your loads might be a little low on the velocity to even make a xm193 comparison. I wouldn't knock PSA too hard for QC on those projectiles. |
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Originally Posted By xjronx: Jackets on the varmint soft points are drawn from one direction, jackets on the fmj are drawn from the other. The first leads itself to very consistent bases, the second not at all. You may be a little spoiled by the performance of the soft points, and not as aware that fmj is as bad as it is generally. 2-4 moa with xm193 isn't outside the norm. And your loads might be a little low on the velocity to even make a xm193 comparison. I wouldn't knock PSA too hard for QC on those projectiles. I am sure they will get it sorted out. In the meantime, for those folks shooting inside 25 or 50 yards, such as a buddy of mine who has an AR pistol with a red dot, these would be fine. Or if you are trying to hit an 8" or 10" plate at 100 yards. |
There is not a more violent principle in the world than conscience misinformed. - Matthew Henry
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
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Mean radius mo betta. Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony: Mean radius mo betta. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/Landshark_1_OT_jpg-2287512.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/Landshark_2_OT_jpg-2287514.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/Landshark_3_OT_jpg-2287515.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/Landshark_4_OT_jpg-2287516.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/Landshark_5_OT_jpg-2287517.JPG Thank you. |
There is not a more violent principle in the world than conscience misinformed. - Matthew Henry
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
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Originally Posted By FritzTKatt: If it was factory, I'd chalk it up to just being ball ammo. Since they're hand loads I'd expect more like 2-1/2moa on the bad end. What happens if you cull the cockeyed ones? |
There is not a more violent principle in the world than conscience misinformed. - Matthew Henry
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
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Originally Posted By Landshark9025: I was wondering that myself, but didn't want to hassle. Now you've done it. I'll find 10 that look good and load them up at 23.5g. That seemed to be the best charge with both. It will be a couple of weeks though. Will update this thread then. Really though, 4moa is just the bad end of factory fmj. So it’s not like you’re completely out in left field throwing dogturds at the target. Then what happens if you somehow shot 5 of 10 being cockeyed, when only 5/100 are bad? Then you get down to more like 2-1/2moa without the cockeyed ones. Easy enough to set the bullet on the table before seating if you’re loading single. Kinda in a bad spot if you want to load them progressive, but then I guess that depends on how much you really enjoy just loading versus your financial situation. |
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UPDATE: At the suggestion of @fritztkatt I went looking for 10 bullets that "by my eyes" would line up evenly. The theory being if they stand straight and uniform, maybe they will shoot better. After going through more than 100, I was able to sort out these. I used a white background to make it easier for me to see. PSA 55g FMJ Attached File Attached File For reference here are the Midsouth Varmint Nightmare under same photo conditions Attached File Attached File You'll notice, that with the high res photos, they are still pretty inconsistent. Zoom out to where they look "actual size" and they looked pretty good. So, next up was to hand weigh 20 charges of H-335 at 23.5g as that was the best charge for both. Then shoot five of one, five of the other, five of the first and five of the second. I didn't bother with the chrony this time. NOTE: On the Varmint Nightmare I completely messed up the first two shots. Just wasn't settled in. I'm counting them as "called" as I swore after the shot broke. Still, there is actually 10 shots on that target. Discounting the two it's a 1.4" group. So, about average for me. I can do a bit better if I take all day, but I was a bit rushed yesterday. On the PSA, there's nine holes as one of them was off the top. I used new cardboard backers just in case. It wasn't that far off, so we're looking at like 4.5". These are both a bit high as I didn't have the can on. Attached File Attached File Be all that as it may, there is still a wild difference between the two. And while 3-4 MOA is "average for bulk ammo", given the PSA FMJs are the same price as the Varmint Nightmare, the only advantage for the PSA would be if they are available and nothing else is. I just don't see getting better than 3-4 MOA out of these and for me, I need a bit better. I'm not going to bag on PSA or give them a bad review. As others have said "that's average". And 3-4 MOA may be considered a "win" for them at this stage. I'm super happy to see other players entering the market and I don't want to do anything to dissuade that. The minute they start selling primers as components, I'll give those a go as well. As mentioned, I WANT them to succeed. Competition is good and we need someone to motivate Vista and other established brands. These just aren't quite there yet for me. |
There is not a more violent principle in the world than conscience misinformed. - Matthew Henry
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
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Originally Posted By Burnsy87: Good research and write-ups OP. Thanks for doing the work Originally Posted By Burnsy87: Good research and write-ups OP. Thanks for doing the work Originally Posted By dryflash3: Thanks for the update. After about nine years, it's about time I give something back, eh @dryflash3 ? lol |
There is not a more violent principle in the world than conscience misinformed. - Matthew Henry
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
Global Warming Hoax Skeptic before it was cool
Joined:
Jun 2007
Posts:
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EE: 100% (1)
WA, USA
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Originally Posted By Landshark9025: UPDATE: At the suggestion of @fritztkatt I went looking for 10 bullets that "by my eyes" would line up evenly. The theory being if they stand straight and uniform, maybe they will shoot better. After going through more than 100, I was able to sort out these. I used a white background to make it easier for me to see. PSA 55g FMJ https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/365808/IMG_0139_jpeg-2320433.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/365808/IMG_0141_jpeg-2320434.JPG For reference here are the Midsouth Varmint Nightmare under same photo conditions https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/365808/IMG_0142_jpeg-2320435.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/365808/IMG_0143_jpeg-2320436.JPG You'll notice, that with the high res photos, they are still pretty inconsistent. Zoom out to where they look "actual size" and they looked pretty good. So, next up was to hand weigh 20 charges of H-335 at 23.5g as that was the best charge for both. Then shoot five of one, five of the other, five of the first and five of the second. I didn't bother with the chrony this time. NOTE: On the Varmint Nightmare I completely messed up the first two shots. Just wasn't settled in. I'm counting them as "called" as I swore after the shot broke. Still, there is actually 10 shots on that target. Discounting the two it's a 1.4" group. So, about average for me. I can do a bit better if I take all day, but I was a bit rushed yesterday. On the PSA, there's nine holes as one of them was off the top. I used new cardboard backers just in case. It wasn't that far off, so we're looking at like 4.5". These are both a bit high as I didn't have the can on. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/365808/IMG_0157_jpeg-2320452.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/365808/IMG_0158_jpeg-2320471.JPG Be all that as it may, there is still a wild difference between the two. And while 3-4 MOA is "average for bulk ammo", given the PSA FMJs are the same price as the Varmint Nightmare, the only advantage for the PSA would be if they are available and nothing else is. I just don't see getting better than 3-4 MOA out of these and for me, I need a bit better. I'm not going to bag on PSA or give them a bad review. As others have said "that's average". And 3-4 MOA may be considered a "win" for them at this stage. I'm super happy to see other players entering the market and I don't want to do anything to dissuade that. The minute they start selling primers as components, I'll give those a go as well. As mentioned, I WANT them to succeed. Competition is good and we need someone to motivate Vista and other established brands. These just aren't quite there yet for me. Well, at least you know they’re just not that high quality, even cherry picked. It’s disappointing. I was hoping you’d get down to more like 2moa. I had missed that they cost the same as a JSP. Definitely not worth the money when other options are available. Maybe PSA will get their setup tuned in better and produce a higher quality product in the coming months. |
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Great review! 55 FMJ bullets have always been iffy but they were 5-7 cents a piece, and the Varmint Nightmare were 10 cents. The only 55 FMJ bullets that I have ever seen get close to 1 MOA were from Lapua, and that is from a bolt gun that will shoot .25 MOA with match bullets. In this crazy market, the VN bullet is a great value, and I wouldn't even consider anything FMJ for accuracy purposes. |
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Originally Posted By BoSanders: What advantages do those varmint nightmare bullets offer over traditional FMJ's? I've seen them mentioned alot as of late.Also do they feed reliably in AR's?
I'm pretty sure they are repackaged Hornady. Likely seconds. I don't mean to sound like a salesman, but they are almost all I shoot in 223 (couple hundred 69g) so they are my defacto "control group". |
There is not a more violent principle in the world than conscience misinformed. - Matthew Henry
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
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Originally Posted By Landshark9025: The below are my personal opinions. I've been shooting them for more than five years.
I'm pretty sure they are repackaged Hornady. Likely seconds. I don't mean to sound like a salesman, but they are almost all I shoot in 223 (couple hundred 69g) so they are my defacto "control group". Okay.I’m gonna try some out.Thanks for the info. |
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Originally Posted By BoSanders: They are new to this whole ammo and components thing.I have no doubt they’ll get it figured out. Customers should not have to be guinea pigs while a manufacturer is "figuring it out." If a company wants its customers to be beta-testers, then the company should be upfront about it and offer the the product at a reduced price while they are "figuring it out." OP, thanks for posting your data. I was thinking of evaluating these bullets, but thanks to your data, I won't be wasting my time being a guinea pig. .... |
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In God We Trust. Everyone else must post data.
In God We Trust. Everyone else must post data.
| Thanks for the writeup, well done. At the current price of powder and primers, I hate to waste them on bullets that aren’t that accurate. But I was in the local Sportsman’s Warehouse yesterday, and they wanted $100 for a box of 250 Nosler Custom Competition 69 gr BTHPs! I did recently order some Hornady 55 gr FMJ’s from MidSouth on sale for $46.99 for 5 boxes of 100, not bulk plastic bagged. And a year ago, grabbed 4,000 Wolf 55 gr FMJ’s for $204 + shipping, so I can see shooting 2-3 MOA groups if bullets are under .10. But by far prefer the MidSouth Hornady 62 gr BTHP for .13 per and capable of sub MOA, or RMR’s 69 gr BTHP at .15 each for similar accuracy. Nosler s at .40 each are a no go. My 1 in 12” twist bolt gun loves the Hornady 50 gr SPSX, MidSouth has them for .15 and it shoots 5 of them under half an inch at 100 yards with 26.0 gr of TAC, when I do my part. |
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Originally Posted By Molon: Customers should not have to be guinea pigs while a manufacturer is "figuring it out." If a company wants its customers to be beta-testers, then the company should be upfront about it and offer the the product at a reduced price while they are "figuring it out. Sig would like a word |
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Originally Posted By snakeyes711: Pics of the bottom pls. Will you try the 115gr. 9mm?   I have no intention of testing the 9mm. All my 9mm is cast boolits so it is not an apples to apples comparison. I currently have enough lead and alloy to last a long time. However, given that pistol bullets would not have the same issue on the base due to different construction (I think? Never bought a FMJ pistol bullet and only bought at most 2k of plated years ago), I would probably buy them with confidence- if I was the pistol bullet buying type. Remember, the weights of these were very good. The rest of it appeared so as well. It's just the bases, I think. I'll leave the pistol bullets to someone else. Josiah did reach out to me today asking the lot number. Likely a result of @strikefirst hitting the Bat Signal. If there is anything to report, I will. Again, if 3.5-4 MOA works for you, these could be a viable option. When I shot 2gun matches the targets were all 50 yards and in and speed was the rule, so these would have been fine. For me, I need to be able to make sure a novice can hit a 6" plate at 100 yards and if they miss, know it's them. Different goal. Expect a new thread if they start selling and shipping small rifle primers..lol |
There is not a more violent principle in the world than conscience misinformed. - Matthew Henry
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
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Below are pictures and a video of what comes off of 55gr FMJ 5.56mm AAC Ammunitions line. The video shows the machine running and what they look like as they come off of the machine. It doesn't match with the photos that you are showing. We think that this could be packaging issue where the projectiles were damaged in transit or were damaged another way. Here is what we would offer to you. We would like to give you an all expenses paid trip (flight,hotel,food,reimbursement for time) to have you come to the factory and see what is being made. You can take the projectiles off the line at random as they are being made and load them yourself. We would then take you to our nearby 100yd range and have you test them. We are consistently getting approximately 2 MOA in our testing and believe you will as well. .gif)  
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Palmetto State Armory
3760 Fernandina Rd
Columbia, SC 29210
Web Sales: 1-803-724-6950
3760 Fernandina Rd
Columbia, SC 29210
Web Sales: 1-803-724-6950
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@palmettostatearmory I just read your post to my wife who said "Wow. That's like Publisher's Clearing House coming...for you. Whatever will you do?" Me: "I will GO THERE!" That's an incredible offer and zooming in on those, the do look different. Will need to figure out logistics and I will be putting in for some time off. |
There is not a more violent principle in the world than conscience misinformed. - Matthew Henry
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
|
Originally Posted By PalmettoStateArmory: Below are pictures and a video of what comes off of 55gr FMJ 5.56mm AAC Ammunitions line. The video shows the machine running and what they look like as they come off of the machine. It doesn't match with the photos that you are showing. We think that this could be packaging issue where the projectiles were damaged in transit or were damaged another way. Here is what we would offer to you. We would like to give you an all expenses paid trip (flight,hotel,food,reimbursement for time) to have you come to the factory and see what is being made. You can take the projectiles off the line at random as they are being made and load them yourself. We would then take you to our nearby 100yd range and have you test them. We are consistently getting approximately 2 MOA in our testing and believe you will as well. https://palmetto-content.s3.amazonaws.com/ezgif.com-gif-maker+(1).gif https://palmetto-content.s3.amazonaws.com/thumbnail_Resized_20220325_100801.jpeg https://palmetto-content.s3.amazonaws.com/thumbnail_Resized_20220325_101120.jpeg Now that ladies and gentlemen is what’s called “Putting Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.” |
Global Warming Hoax Skeptic before it was cool
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I know that PSA stands by their products, but this offer is above and beyond good customer service. Looking forward to OP's report after his visit. |
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Originally Posted By Strikefirst: W O W Please keep us updated! I tagged Josiah because he helped me a few months back with a lost shipment. I figured they'd help but this is a whole other level of service! @landshark9025 I expect inside pictures man! All, I will update the thread when I have the trip scheduled and thereafter with results. |
There is not a more violent principle in the world than conscience misinformed. - Matthew Henry
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. - C.S Lewis
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Well done PSA. 2 coworkers of mine have fallen in love with PSA. Their FFL loves them too. |
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PSA AAC 55g FMJ versus Midsouth Shooters Varmint Nightmare and H-335- UPDATE POSTED- THEY SHOOT! (Page 1 of 3)
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