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Posted: 5/16/2024 7:54:59 AM EDT
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First off, I don't believe even if ATF allows it today, they aren't going to change their mind tomorrow. That said, how do you tell which pre samples are now considered transferable? If I go into eforms and create a form 4 to myself and it allows to me to do so with a pre-sample - is that the test today? |
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Here are the instructions I was given yesterday (05/15/24) on the phone with ATF: Draft a letter asking and include the following: 1. Identify the gun make, model, SN, type (ie for post-68 SBS), and caliber. Identify the ownership (personal or corporate) and your connection to the owning entity. (LLC member or manager, personal ownership, etc.) 2. Be sure that the letter is wet (hand) signed, dated, and provide your email address. 3. Scan the letter and email to [email protected] |
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Quoted: Here are the instructions I was given yesterday (05/15/24) on the phone with ATF: Draft a letter asking and include the following: 1. Identify the gun make, model, SN, type (ie for post-68 SBS), and caliber. Identify the ownership (personal or corporate) and your connection to the owning entity. (LLC member or manager, personal ownership, etc.) 2. Be sure that the letter is wet (hand) signed, dated, and provide your email address. 3. Scan the letter and email to [email protected] Thanks! I made form 4s and 3s for all my pre and post sample MGs, this morning and never got an error or viewed a form that had a restricted stamp. (clicked view form before submitting/paying, just kept changing the firearm on the form) let's see if the ATF will put anything in writing |
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Quoted: First off, I don't believe even if ATF allows it today, they aren't going to change their mind tomorrow. That said, how do you tell which pre samples are now considered transferable? If I go into eforms and create a form 4 to myself and it allows to me to do so with a pre-sample - is that the test today? Go to e forms and create a xfer to another FFL. Then pull up your inventory to see select what you want to xfer. On the far right, there is a restrictions column. On mine, only restrictions now are for 922(o) guns. all dealer sample restrictions are gone. This includes MGs, SBS, silencers. I do not have a dealer sample SBR, nut I imagine if I did, restriction would be lifted. |
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Quoted: Go to e forms and create a xfer to another FFL. Then pull up your inventory to see select what you want to xfer. On the far right, there is a restrictions column. On mine, only restrictions now are for 922(o) guns. all dealer sample restrictions are gone. This includes MGs, SBS, silencers. I do not have a dealer sample SBR, nut I imagine if I did, restriction would be lifted. Only 1 out of my 11 pre-samples says RESTRICTED 922(O). I wonder how brave buyers are today about buying as a transferable what was a pre sample last week. |
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Quoted: Only 1 out of my 11 pre-samples says RESTRICTED 922(O). I wonder how brave buyers are today about buying as a transferable what was a pre sample last week. I had mentioned in the other thread that at some point, it will be hard to tell what was once a pre-sample without a FOIA on the gun (unless it's something like an M249). The MG game just gets more and more risky. |
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Quoted: I had mentioned in the other thread that at some point, it will be hard to tell what was once a pre-sample without a FOIA on the gun (unless it's something like an M249). The MG game just gets more and more risky. MP5s are my concern. I'd dump mine in a heartbeat if people are willing to pay remotely close to what they sold for at Morphy's. I sent a request letter for everything today. If I get positive answers in writing, I'll probably sell them all. |
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Quoted: Only 1 out of my 11 pre-samples says RESTRICTED 922(O). I wonder how brave buyers are today about buying as a transferable what was a pre sample last week. Quoted: Quoted: Go to e forms and create a xfer to another FFL. Then pull up your inventory to see select what you want to xfer. On the far right, there is a restrictions column. On mine, only restrictions now are for 922(o) guns. all dealer sample restrictions are gone. This includes MGs, SBS, silencers. I do not have a dealer sample SBR, nut I imagine if I did, restriction would be lifted. Only 1 out of my 11 pre-samples says RESTRICTED 922(O). I wonder how brave buyers are today about buying as a transferable what was a pre sample last week. I was under the impression that any "922(o)" restricted gun was post-86 ...... not pre |
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Quoted: I wonder how much this will temporarily drop prices. I'd love to have an MP5 to go with my M16. Most the other machineguns I want were produced 80+ years ago. It's not going to drop prices, there aren't that many being added as transferable. People will pay bigger bucks for a factory HK MP5. Most of my pre-sample MGs are 80+ years old and they are now listed as transferable MG34, MG42, BAR, Vickers.. |
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Quoted: MP5s are my concern. I'd dump mine in a heartbeat if people are willing to pay remotely close to what they sold for at Morphy's. I sent a request letter for everything today. If I get positive answers in writing, I'll probably sell them all. I don't blame you. I think with the variants of some guns that are now transferable, people are willing to pay more because of FOMO. That's probably why those Morphy's Auction MP5's went for so much. The news hit the market overnight for a lot of people (despite this being in the works for a while supposedly), and big pockets wanted to hop on that train before others caught on. It's been interesting to watch what some brokers' and dealers' inventories have done over the last week. |
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Quoted: MP5s are my concern. I'd dump mine in a heartbeat if people are willing to pay remotely close to what they sold for at Morphy's. I sent a request letter for everything today. If I get positive answers in writing, I'll probably sell them all. Just list it on Strum for your asking price with a guarantee (of sorts) that it will transfer to the buyer (an individual) via form 4 or you'll return their money. Then, other than a little time, you and the buyer wouldn't be out anything. And just my .02, if anyone who has any of these newly transferable samples they want to cash in on, I would suggest doing so as soon as possible. Just in case the feds change their minds and reclassify them again. Because once they do, (if they do) it will be the last guy it's registered to who will be stuck with it and prices will drop to, if not below the pre-sample prices they were just a couple of months ago. |
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Quoted: Wish I could join ya'll in talking about MGs and what's in my inventory....., but it's fun to read about what ya'll have and dream. You can do it. Look, I started off dead broke. Finding the $500 for the SOT involved a ton of overtime at my shitty job. But I did it. Then I had to make that money back. I started by finding out how much transfers cost and then undercut everybody. People started offering me a used gun here or there. If the price was right or I could negotiate it to right, I’d buy it and resell. Sometimes I found other great deals. Mags for half off. Factory fresh ammo in water-damaged boxes at some steep discount. Whatever. Then I organized my first group buy with a whopping $25 per can profit. Eventually I did another group buy. And another. And yet another. Then I slowly but surely brought prices up, $25 to $30 to $35 to… Eventually I did a 50-can buy at $100 profit each. That doesn’t seem like much, but my first basic transfers were ten bucks. I lived in an area where people dumped their gun’s boxes. So I gathered these up and sold them on eBay for $25-100 each. That was almost all profit. Or I’d hold them and supply a used gun with a proper but non-matching box. That added value. I discovered used holsters for cheap. Suddenly the Single Six which came in has a box, papers, and a holster. I could easily add $100 to the price for maybe $5-10 in additional cost. Starting out SUCKED, but that’s how I did it. And that’s how you could do it, too. If you really want it, I hope you do it. 
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Quoted: Wish I could join ya'll in talking about MGs and what's in my inventory....., but it's fun to read about what ya'll have and dream. The easiest way for most people is to skip one or more generations of new cars. Keep your older, paid off car and apply your monthly payment to guns. Still driving my 2002 Silverado HD, no payment since 2007. Payment was $750. 12 * 750 * 17 = lots of machine guns. You just have to decide what is most important to you. |
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Quoted: The easiest way for most people is to skip one or more generations of new cars. Keep your older, paid off car and apply your monthly payment to guns. Still driving my 2002 Silverado HD, no payment since 2007. Payment was $750. 12 * 750 * 17 = lots of machine guns. You just have to decide what is most important to you. This right here. It always baffles me when I see guys complaining about not having money for stuff as they post pics from inside newer vehicles. Guys whine about how much a MG costs yet have no problem dropping $50k + on a newer car. It's all about priorities. |
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Another idea: Put the gun to work for you. This isn’t the best idea with a rare C&R gun or something with unobtainable parts, but I rented my MGs to other shooters at shoots. $25 back then was two 20-round mags of 9 mm. My cost then was about $5/50 at that time with reloading. It was normal to see ten rentals. 10 renters x $25 = $250 gross 10 renters x 40 rounds = 400 rounds 400 rounds / 50 rounds per box = 8 boxes x $5 = $40 That’s $210 profit. I paid off my first MG in 12 shoots. Yes, times have changed. Paying off a gun is a years-long difficult option. But defraying expenses is not unrealistic. And while ammo and component prices have risen, so have rental prices. |
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Quoted: The easiest way for most people is to skip one or more generations of new cars. Keep your older, paid off car and apply your monthly payment to guns. Still driving my 2002 Silverado HD, no payment since 2007. Payment was $750. 12 * 750 * 17 = lots of machine guns. You just have to decide what is most important to you. ^^^^ THIS…and it applies to lots of things. Can’t afford to buy a house, but drive a brand new fancy pickup truck, and live in an apartment building…HahaHa! |
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Quoted: Here are the instructions I was given yesterday (05/15/24) on the phone with ATF: Draft a letter asking and include the following: 1. Identify the gun make, model, SN, type (ie for post-68 SBS), and caliber. Identify the ownership (personal or corporate) and your connection to the owning entity. (LLC member or manager, personal ownership, etc.) 2. Be sure that the letter is wet (hand) signed, dated, and provide your email address. 3. Scan the letter and email to [email protected] Sounds like they're trying to update the Registry. |
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Quoted: Sounds like they're trying to update the Registry. ATF has admitted that they have been trying to update the registry for a while. I'm sure a lot of forms have been fudged in the past that haven't been caught due to their records not being "digital." I've come across some fudd lore on other sites that MG transfers have been denied when ATF looks through their records for a serial number and "uh oh" that was actually a post-sample that got transferred to an individual in the past. In theory, by allowing these pre-samples to become transferable, they're getting more paperwork on these guns (especially the 1 of a kind variants) and keeping them rotating rather than disappearing when their owners go out of business or pass away. |
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Quoted: Go to e forms and create a xfer to another FFL. Then pull up your inventory to see select what you want to xfer. On the far right, there is a restrictions column. On mine, only restrictions now are for 922(o) guns. all dealer sample restrictions are gone. This includes MGs, SBS, silencers. I do not have a dealer sample SBR, nut I imagine if I did, restriction would be lifted. Thanks, this cleared up what someone else told me to do. Your directions works and the one Pre-86 MG in our inventory now shows no restrictions and looks just like the one transferrable we have in stock. Nice. |
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Quoted: Thanks, this cleared up what someone else told me to do. Your directions works and the one Pre-86 MG in our inventory now shows no restrictions and looks just like the one transferrable we have in stock. Nice. Cool. I'm surprised I'm not seeing any of these now transferable guns listed for sale anywhere. I still haven't received a response from the NFA branch confirming any of my serial numbers, but like you none are marked restricted and I can add them to Form 4 templates in eforms... |
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Quoted: I just posted an MP5 on Sturm, let's see if anyone is brave enough to bite. I wish I had the funds to take this on for you, but alas I am getting ready to write checks for the kids HS tuition for next year and that is straining enough. But I had a thought, why not initiate a form 4 to a trusted individual (I'm sure you have someone in your circle) and see if it clears. You, as the dealer, could always cancel the form4 even after approval. Or let it go through and transfer it back. |
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Quoted: I wish I had the funds to take this on for you, but alas I am getting ready to write checks for the kids HS tuition for next year and that is straining enough. But I had a thought, why not initiate a form 4 to a trusted individual (I'm sure you have someone in your circle) and see if it clears. You, as the dealer, could always cancel the form4 even after approval. Or let it go through and transfer it back. I'm a dealer, an LLC, I could Form 4 transfer it to myself. Upon approval I could withdraw it and wait a month for it to repopulate into my efile. The way I'm doing it I get to sit on someone elses $55K while they figure it out :) |
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The 3 pre-86 that my uncle and I are in possession were verified police agency usage before transferring into our inventory. Mp5 was Lake Oswego PD Swat team in the 1970's. Was ordered from J Curtis Earl. MG34 was J Curtis Earl also but ordered in the early 1970's by a Montana Sheriffs Dept and they wanted it due to the A.I.M happenings all around the area and also other areas of the US and Canada. They were worried about an Indian uprising and 8mm ammo was super duper cheap from the receipts at nearly a 4 cents a round. The next one is a Beretta PM12 that was Lake Oswego PD also as they wanted another MP5 and couldn't get anymore and this was offered. From the agency letterhead, they requested an MP5 and they couldn't get one so the Beretta was offered. The MG34 was similar to the other one my uncle transferred to another person and that was Amnesty registered and came from a ETO veteran. We sold it to someone in Oregon and when we did the paperwork, ATF in all of its graces said that its a Post-sample. We submitted the OG Amnesty paperwork copy from 1968 and they waited their sweet ass time to update it. By month 6, the buyer got uncomfortable and he backed out and went for a 1919 from another dealer in Oregon. We were told by another dealer at the SAR show last year that ATF contract workers accidently destroyed a lot of the Amnesty and Pre86 dealer sample records and that is why they are doing this whole thing right now. I'm kinda believing it possibly. In answer to the question, FOIA helps and keeping all of the paperwork helps but I also checked on the Eform and did a dry run on doing a transfer on those pre-86 and it didn't pop up as restricted on my end when trying to get it for an individual. |
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Quoted: In answer to the question, FOIA helps and keeping all of the paperwork helps but I also checked on the Eform and did a dry run on doing a transfer on those pre-86 and it didn't pop up as restricted on my end when trying to get it for an individual. I just did an Eform 4 to myself for a pre-sample BAR. Let's see how it goes. |
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Quoted: .... I still haven't received a response from the NFA branch confirming any of my serial numbers, but like you none are marked restricted and I can add them to Form 4 templates in eforms... I received an email after requesting a status to my initial request. They said a minimum of 90 days is needed to look into it. |
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Quoted: You can do it. Look, I started off dead broke. Finding the $500 for the SOT involved a ton of overtime at my shitty job. But I did it. Then I had to make that money back. I started by finding out how much transfers cost and then undercut everybody. People started offering me a used gun here or there. If the price was right or I could negotiate it to right, I’d buy it and resell. Sometimes I found other great deals. Mags for half off. Factory fresh ammo in water-damaged boxes at some steep discount. Whatever. Then I organized my first group buy with a whopping $25 per can profit. Eventually I did another group buy. And another. And yet another. Then I slowly but surely brought prices up, $25 to $30 to $35 to… Eventually I did a 50-can buy at $100 profit each. That doesn’t seem like much, but my first basic transfers were ten bucks. I lived in an area where people dumped their gun’s boxes. So I gathered these up and sold them on eBay for $25-100 each. That was almost all profit. Or I’d hold them and supply a used gun with a proper but non-matching box. That added value. I discovered used holsters for cheap. Suddenly the Single Six which came in has a box, papers, and a holster. I could easily add $100 to the price for maybe $5-10 in additional cost. Starting out SUCKED, but that’s how I did it. And that’s how you could do it, too. If you really want it, I hope you do it. That is a good story - glad someone has made a go of it. I have cautiously looked at being a dealer/SOT and I chicken out every time I get close. I think you need to invest a lot of time and effort into making a business strong and if its a hobby-ish business it can be a financial trap. Maybe in retirement I could set aside more time with such a project. I am also no sure how well sharing home address and SOT/dealer is perceived these days. Seems like on one side the ATF wants everyone that could sell a gun with any perceived gains to have an FFL, but then again, having an FFL at your home as a small business is also frowned upon and subject to "surprise audits" and paperwork errors equivalent to adulteration of a federal document,- which way is it acceptable? |
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Quoted: Why would that one not be a new transferable? Was it actually a dealer sample? I'm pretty sure the ATF has no real idea which 1968-86 imported weapons went directly to LE Agencies and which ended up in an LE Agency armory after passing thru an Importer and dealer ..... Are/were LE Agencies ever allowed to import direct ? |
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Quoted: Yes, and they still are. They've always been exempt from the restrictions imposed by the 1968 Gun Control Act. Yup. I imagine agencies run into issues with foreign manufacturers who are unwilling to make MG sales to law enforcement in the US, though. Plus, I'm sure some departments would rather buy "American-made." Occasionally, they do manage to get cool toys, such as G36's and FN EGLM's. |
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Quoted: Emailed the ATF yesterday asking if our one pre-sample is now civilian ownable. I'll keep this thread up-to-date on how long it takes to get a response. Manufacturer: Carl Walther Model: MP-K Serial Number: 227xx Type: MG Caliber/Gauge: 9mm Owner: WCMG, LLC Just spend the $200, it's way faster. I submitted 6 form 4s to myself on pre-samples that were no longer listed as pre samples in my efile last week. They all came back disapproved, and my efile inventory is updated as restricted to sales samples. I got the refunds for the $200 stamps back today. |
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Quoted: Yes, and they still are. They've always been exempt from the restrictions imposed by the 1968 Gun Control Act. I was looking into that for the museum, we’re trying to partner with the local city to create a parallel gov museum that subleases a room from the 501 (c) 3 private museum. While I know we could directly import, I don’t understand how we’d register it in that scenario? Form 2 isn’t applicable as a gov museum isn’t a SOT, Form 1 we’re not the maker, form 5 isn’t applicable, so is the only option in that case to form 10 it? |
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Quoted: While I know we could directly import, I don't understand how we'd register it in that scenario? Form 2 isn't applicable as a gov museum isn't a SOT, Form 1 we're not the maker, form 5 isn't applicable, so is the only option in that case to form 10 it? Anything a government entity registers on Form 10 is forever limited only for transfer to other government entities (not even SOTs) so try to avoid that. It's an option for an MP40 someone finds in their attic (if there are no better options such as a prior registration, or capture papers). |
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Quoted: Form 6 is for direct importation, and that should register it to the importer as well. Anything a government entity registers on Form 10 is forever limited only for transfer to other government entities (not even SOTs) so try to avoid that. It's an option for an MP40 someone finds in their attic (if there are no better options such as a prior registration, or capture papers). I’m aware of the restrictions on the form 10, I’m just thinking let’s say the museum wanted to import directly a factory Bulgarian RPG 7 for a GWOT or Vietnam war display. If they submit a form 6 and ATF approved it, what mechanism would they have to register that? A partially filled out form 2? Or are you suggesting ATF would take the form 6 and register it on the museums behalf? I ask as I’m a 08/01, I’ve imported suppressors before as a manufacturing sample to a 07/02, and I’m happy to donate my time to the museum, but it doesn’t make sense to pay 3,000 dollars plus a SOT to pull a DD import license for one RPG if the museum could do it directly. But at the same time I don’t really see a current mechanism for governmental entities to register imported NFA items without putting it on a form 10. This is a very niche technical question but before asking ATF I didn’t know if you had any experience as you’ve been with your LE agency for quite some time while also obviously being very into NFA. |
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Quoted: I'm aware of the restrictions on the form 10, I'm just thinking let's say the museum wanted to import directly a factory Bulgarian RPG 7 for a GWOT or Vietnam war display. If they submit a form 6 and ATF approved it, what mechanism would they have to register that? A partially filled out form 2? Or are you suggesting ATF would take the form 6 and register it on the museums behalf? Quoted: I'm aware of the restrictions on the form 10, I'm just thinking let's say the museum wanted to import directly a factory Bulgarian RPG 7 for a GWOT or Vietnam war display. If they submit a form 6 and ATF approved it, what mechanism would they have to register that? A partially filled out form 2? Or are you suggesting ATF would take the form 6 and register it on the museums behalf? Form 2 is only for SOTs so a government museum would not use that. Form 1 would be for anything they make themselves, tax-exempt. (LE agencies use Form 1 as well.) I ask as I'm a 08/01, I've imported suppressors before as a manufacturing sample to a 07/02, and I'm happy to donate my time to the museum, but it doesn't make sense to pay 3,000 dollars plus a SOT to pull a DD import license for one RPG if the museum could do it directly. But at the same time I don't really see a current mechanism for governmental entities to register imported NFA items without putting it on a form 10. 3. If a licensee is applying to import an article for subsequent transfer to a known final recipient (e.g., an individual, commercial entity, or government agency), the licensee must complete items 1 through 16, and identify the final recipient by name and address in item 10 So when you imported the suppressors, did you list another transferee (the 07/02 SOT) in item 10?Did you additionally Form 3 transfer the suppressors from your 08/01 to them, or just do the Form 6? It does look to me like the default use of Form 6 is to import and register to the submitter (if there's no other party involved). This is a very niche technical question but before asking ATF I didn't know if you had any experience as you've been with your LE agency for quite some time while also obviously being very into NFA. I'm interested in learning the right answer though. |
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