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Posted: 9/5/2014 9:54:01 PM EDT
[#1]
So does the redundant system means either lock can open the safe? Do they have a dual system where lets say you turn the mechanical lock AND enter the passcode on the electronic?
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Posted: 9/5/2014 11:12:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: a1abdj]
[#2]
So does the redundant system means either lock can open the safe? A redundant lock is a single lock that has two sets of internals. This allows one to bypass the other in the event of a failure. In both of the posted photos of the gun safes, the lock is mounted behind the dial, and the keypad is connected into the same lock. The single lock has both mechanical and electronic internals. Do they have a dual system where lets say you turn the mechanical lock AND enter the passcode on the electronic? This would be considered dual custody, where you have two independent locks, each having to be unlocked to allow the safe to open. In some systems the linkage is adjustable to either require both locks to be open, or where either lock can open. In the latter set up, the second lock acts as a redundant to the first. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 9/6/2014 1:54:08 AM EDT
[#3]
I know this is the Amsec guy's thread, but on the topic of redundant locks I thought this was interesting. This is my Fort Knox, they're now using a 4 wheel S&G as the mechanical and have incorporated the LaGard electronic in their redundant lock. I assume this has something to do with LaGard no longer offering the redundant as an option and those using it are installing new old stock? Or at least that's what I have gathered from hearsay on the Interwebs. :)
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Posted: 9/6/2014 4:04:31 AM EDT
[#4]
That may be an S&G Dial, but there must still be a LaGard or LP Locks 4-wheel Digital/Mechanical Lock behind that dial. S&G doesn't make any such redundant lock. Unless someone is doing some aftermarket lock mod's, which I would be very afraid of from a reliability standpoint.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 9/6/2014 10:25:11 AM EDT
[#5]
Yeah, that's what was strange to me. I've been planning on taking the inside panel off to take a closer look. I will say though that it does even have a genuine S&G key. I could see possibly keeping the S&G dials from their other safes to keep them all uniform, but I couldn't see them cutting a key on a S&G key unless it was a S&G lock (not even sure if LaGard keys are the same). This is also an option directly from Fort Knox and not a conversion from the dealer. The dealer also isn't a locksmith and only knows enough about locks to swap mechanical to electric and vice versa (his own admission). Here's one of the keys that came with it, one day I'll remove the panel and take a pic of the actual lock:
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Posted: 9/6/2014 10:57:25 AM EDT
[#6]
I suspect that they have two independent locks in the Fort Knox, and that the S&G is connected to a linkage that provides a bypass to the electronic. I have never encountered a Fort Knox with redundant set up. They did use to have a dual lock safe where each lock controlled half of the boltwork. That was interesting.
I wouldn't mind seeing photos of the inside of that Fort Knox, but I wouldn't suggest posting them to the open forum. Safeguy may want to see them too. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/6/2014 11:09:59 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mingoglia:
Yeah, that's what was strange to me. I've been planning on taking the inside panel off to take a closer look. I will say though that it does even have a genuine S&G key. I could see possibly keeping the S&G dials from their other safes to keep them all uniform, but I couldn't see them cutting a key on a S&G key unless it was a S&G lock (not even sure if LaGard keys are the same). This is also an option directly from Fort Knox and not a conversion from the dealer. The dealer also isn't a locksmith and only knows enough about locks to swap mechanical to electric and vice versa (his own admission). Here's one of the keys that came with it, one day I'll remove the panel and take a pic of the actual lock: http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac28/mingoglia/misc/7BF4DC07-7C8B-4D1C-9ED4-85508C53FFF7_zpsknrc1sjj.jpg That's just an S&G dial belong used with the LA GARD redundant lock. If Fort Knox was using two independent locks, I guarantee you the electronic lock would be an S&G. Do you turn the dial after entering the combo? If so, it's only one lock. |
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Posted: 9/6/2014 11:20:37 AM EDT
[#8]
The Dial Key doesn't have anything to do with the lock behind the dial either. That wafer lock merely locks the dial so it can't rotate, nothing more.
It's possible that FK has designed a dual lock device, but it's not their typical style. We call that a "Yoke Lock", where two locks are connected to a common bar and linked so that either lock can make the bar clear the primary Locking Bar and allow opening. This mechanism is pretty complicated for a gunsafe. I'm betting there is a LaGard or LP Locks Duo lock inside there. We have a Yoke Lock system for commercial safe designs. This one simple question will answer the question... When you key the code on the keypad up top, do you turn the keypad to open the door, or do you need to turn the combo dial below to open the lock so you can open the door? If you have to turn the combo lock dial to open the safe after using the digital keypad, it's a 4-wheel electro-mechanical lock. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 9/6/2014 12:17:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Any chance of ever seeing a redundant ESL ?
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USA
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Posted: 9/6/2014 2:36:41 PM EDT
[#10]
TSG, I sent you a private message, can you please respond? Thank you!!
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Posted: 9/6/2014 5:46:52 PM EDT
[#11]
The few Youtube videos that I found show the LaGard redundant lock on their safes, complete with LG dial. Maybe they were running low on LG dials the day that safe was assembled.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 9/6/2014 8:57:47 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
The Dial Key doesn't have anything to do with the lock behind the dial either. That wafer lock merely locks the dial so it can't rotate, nothing more. It's possible that FK has designed a dual lock device, but it's not their typical style. We call that a "Yoke Lock", where two locks are connected to a common bar and linked so that either lock can make the bar clear the primary Locking Bar and allow opening. This mechanism is pretty complicated for a gunsafe. I'm betting there is a LaGard or LP Locks Duo lock inside there. We have a Yoke Lock system for commercial safe designs. This one simple question will answer the question... When you key the code on the keypad up top, do you turn the keypad to open the door, or do you need to turn the combo dial below to open the lock so you can open the door? If you have to turn the combo lock dial to open the safe after using the digital keypad, it's a 4-wheel electro-mechanical lock. After putting in the electronic code, I turn the mechanical dial just past 90 just like I would if I were dialing the mechanical code. I'll take that rear panel off and send the two of you a couple photos for your own curiosity. Mike |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 9/6/2014 9:41:49 PM EDT
[#13]
a1abdj and TheSafeGuy, you both have mail....
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Posted: 9/6/2014 10:20:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Yea, that's a LaGard 6441 Redundant Lock in the back. Kaba Mas owns the LaGard line.
Thanks for sending the pict's. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 9/7/2014 10:12:22 AM EDT
[#15]
TSG,
I am looking at a Mosler trtl-30 safe and in attempting to research it, came across the same safe at LackaSafe. http://www.lackasafe.com/products/used-safes-specials/used-mosler-2824-money-trtl30-high-security-safe Here they claim: "Strong Six Sided Torch and Power Tool Resistance. This safe was manufactured by Mosler with six sided protection. The only reason it is not a TRTL30"X6" is because that label did not exist when this safe was made. However, it will protect like a TRTL30X6." I seem unable to find any information that might corroborate this. Anyone heard of this or able to point me to a site with more info on this? Thanks |
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Posted: 9/7/2014 10:56:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By edho:
TSG, I am looking at a Mosler trtl-30 safe and in attempting to research it, came across the same safe at LackaSafe. http://www.lackasafe.com/products/used-safes-specials/used-mosler-2824-money-trtl30-high-security-safe Here they claim: "Strong Six Sided Torch and Power Tool Resistance. This safe was manufactured by Mosler with six sided protection. The only reason it is not a TRTL30"X6" is because that label did not exist when this safe was made. However, it will protect like a TRTL30X6." I seem unable to find any information that might corroborate this. Anyone heard of this or able to point me to a site with more info on this? Thanks History on such matters is very difficult to find. I know that the Mercantile & Broadform Insurance ratings written in the early 1950's referenced UL Burglary Safe Ratings, and included the TRTL30X6 UL Rating as their "H" or "I" rating (I don't have that info handy at the moment). So, for that Mosler safe to pre-date the Turtle rating , it would be a very old safe. It doesn't look that old (Turtle is the nickname we use for the torch resistant safes). This add for the Mosler Turtle is a little sketchy in my eyes. The only thing that I see that confuses the matter is the thick door. It could be a TRTL30 with a cladding (extra thick body shell). I will say this... most people that "say" they are equivalent to a UL standard, and don't have a real listing, are not living in reality. Getting a listing of this level is far more difficult that you can imagine. Just like Gunsafe manufacturers that say they "exceed UL RSC Ratings", yet have never been to UL, they are delusional. Getting a listing is far more than just excessive steel thickness. Mosler Safe Manufacturing went out of business in the mid-90's. I worked with Mosler on making private label safes for them a few years before they crashed. I know they were a stand-up company with a long and respected history, and I doubt they would ever make any such claim as depicted in this sales add. I toured their factories and had access to all of their Engineering resources at the time. I don't recall ever seeing any unlisted Turtle designs, and they were not included in the quote package. My take is this is a clad TL-15 or TL-30 plate safe, and nothing more. Clad safes were popular before we began making true composite safes. The practice was simple, build a TL safe, and then add a shell and fill it with concrete to make it heavier and tougher to defeat. The safe is probably worth the asking price, and it's not junk, but the add claims are probably an exaggeration. |
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Posted: 9/7/2014 11:03:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: a1abdj]
[#17]
Anyone heard of this or able to point me to a site with more info on this? Most of the people that know this stuff inside and out do not share it on websites. Part of what makes a safe secure is preventing the entire world from knowing how it works. The internet is really the worst place to research questions like this. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 9/7/2014 2:19:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Thanks. I think it is 1980ish so not likely X6 comparable.
It does have a TRTL-30 UL label, would the sides of a TRTL-30 likely offer significantly better protection than the sides of a tl-30? |
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Posted: 9/7/2014 2:31:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By edho:
Thanks. I think it is 1980ish so not likely X6 comparable. It does have a TRTL-30 UL label, would the sides of a TRTL-30 likely offer significantly better protection than the sides of a tl-30? Yes, the required construction standard at the time for a TRTL30 was a 1" plate body with a 3" cladding filled with 3500 psi concrete. I would assume that is why they talk up the body construction, although it probably met the requirement and no more. Clearly a plate body with a cladding is a good bit better, but high-strength concrete was not common back then, so it's probably not really badass fill. True composite high strength safe technology was just beginning in the late 80's. We brought the first US made composite to market in 1989. this was one of my first big innovation projects for AMSEC. Within 5 years we owned the TL15/ TL30 market, where it was 100% imports before that time.. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 9/7/2014 3:20:04 PM EDT
[#20]
Thank you.
Unrelated question. Further back in this thread was a discussion on a Florida jewelry store that was hit. Several of the safes were opened from the side or top. What happens to these damaged safes? Is there some way for them to be respectably repaired? I'm thinking an epoxy slurry with aggressive aggregate injected in between replacement metal that is welded on... |
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Posted: 9/7/2014 7:00:01 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By edho: Thank you. Unrelated question. Further back in this thread was a discussion on a Florida jewelry store that was hit. Several of the safes were opened from the side or top. What happens to these damaged safes? Is there some way for them to be respectably repaired? I'm thinking an epoxy slurry with aggressive aggregate injected in between replacement metal that is welded on... |
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Posted: 9/7/2014 7:20:55 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By edho:
Thank you. Unrelated question. Further back in this thread was a discussion on a Florida jewelry store that was hit. Several of the safes were opened from the side or top. What happens to these damaged safes? Is there some way for them to be respectably repaired? I'm thinking an epoxy slurry with aggressive aggregate injected in between replacement metal that is welded on... I think Frank addressed this way back when, the plate safes can be repaired/patched the others are toast. TSG/Frank correct me if I am wrong. |
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Posted: 9/7/2014 7:26:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: a1abdj]
[#23]
Can some safes be repaired after a burglary? Sure. Will that repair meet UL standards? Nope. UL can not attest to anything they don't physically test. If a safe sees simple damage, there's no reason not to repair it. If the safe sees extensive damage, especially that which results in a successful burglary, it's done.
Safes are like the air bags in your car. They are designed to offer protection against one serious event. One burglary or one fire. Once they are used for that one event, you dispose of it, and replace it. |
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Posted: 9/8/2014 12:30:20 AM EDT
[#24]
You may find it amusing that UL does nothing to regulate safes after they are shipped from the manufacturer. They have no jurisdiction, now rule of law, no police force. UL is a non-profit corporation that provides a system to regulate product safety and performance standards, nothing more. The obligations to follow UL rules ends when the listed unit leaves the manufacturers site. The public has no obligation to recognize or obey any of the rules and regulations imposed on the manufacturers. That doesn't mean there aren't safety concerns that, if compromised, might provide a legal standing for litigation. The UL standards are generally concerning human safety, and they bare a heavy influence in the judicial eye.
So, when you ask: "if I fix a burglarized safe, is it okay?", there is nobody that can answer that question. UL staff may offer a forceful and strong opinion, but they have no means to enforce those ideals. That's the way it really is, although there are many regulatory agencies in every part of our society that mandate UL compliant products are required for safety. An example might be electrical circuits, switches, outlets, etc., where building inspections might not allow building permits to issue if unsafe system components are not used, and the UL label is a recognized signature of compliance. Fire and Burglary ratings are a little different, since their performance won't typically cause someone risk of injury or death. My opinion, if the repair is done properly, I think an attacked safe can be restored. The trouble is that it's only an opinion with thoughts about what is adequate, and mine will differ from anyone else that might offer their opinion. Let the chaos reign. |
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Posted: 9/8/2014 1:49:19 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
You may find it amusing that UL does nothing to regulate safes after they are shipped from the manufacturer... So, when you ask: "if I fix a burglarized safe, is it okay?", there is nobody that can answer that question. ... The trouble is that it's only an opinion with thoughts about what is adequate, and mine will differ from anyone else that might offer their opinion. Let the chaos reign. Kind of like repairing a "lightly" wrecked car but you never know... Yeah, think I'd look at replacement as it did it's job. B2 Thanks for sticking around TheSafeGuy -- Ignore the idjits and your input has been invaluable for many that can focus for more than 2 minutes... Same w/ the a1abdj guy... 
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CA, USA
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Posted: 9/8/2014 2:06:48 PM EDT
[#26]
An open letter to TSG:
Dear TSG, I just want to say that I am royally ticked off, mad, angry, and all sorts of other levels of "upset" that I can't even think of right now. 
Never mind that you consistently provide good, reliable information...never mind that you speak from facts...never mind that because of your (and a1abdj, bgene, cj_the_pj, and others) incessant ability to make sense, I have decided to get a BF7240. And let's not talk about Security Safe (who are OUTSTANDING by the way) having my safe in stock and ready to be delivered in a few days. 
NO, No! The only reason that I am so upset is the fact that I do not have one of those TSG dressing plates for my new BF! So...Mr. TSG! I will PM / IM / WhateverM you with my address in the hopes that you will make one of these on your 3D printer to appease an "upset" customer. 
Now where did I put my checkbook for the postage for my plate?  
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DE, USA
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Posted: 9/8/2014 4:24:55 PM EDT
[#27]
Wow, just found this thread a few days ago while researching safes and have learned a lot. When I first got into guns a few years ago, I bought an el cheapo "safe" b/c I didn't know any better at the time. Now I am looking into getting at least a BF, or maybe even a TL rated safe. A few questions:
Safeguy, I've seen that the fire resistance of the BF is impressive, and earlier in this thread you stated that the Amvaults are significantly better yet. My question is this: is excellent fire protection pretty typical of TL rated composite safes in general? I understand if you don't want to post specifics about other brands, just wanted to get some idea. The reason I ask is that if I go the TL route, I will probably buy a used safe, which might mean buying what's available, when it's available at the right price. I've seen a bunch of TL rated safes from companies such as Diebold, Meilink, Original, Kaso, Tann, Chubb, ISM, and probably some others I've forgotten. Do you think many other TL rated composite safes could hold their own against the Amvault in fire testing? If not, would they at least provide comparable fire protection to the BF gunsafes? If I get a TL rated safe, it will probably have to go in the garage (where the car, and natural gas powered water heater are) due to size/weight, so I'd want really good fire protection. Next question, since there's been discussion about how much heat Tupperware can handle: how about tupperguns  . Do you think that Glock frames or Pmags would be ok in 300-350 degree temps, or no? Would it be a good idea to place polymer pistols and magazines near the bottom of a safe, for the cooler temperatures?
Thanks for all the info, like I said before, I am learning a ton of useful stuff in this thread. |
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DE, USA
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Posted: 9/8/2014 4:28:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Ok, one more question. Can you give us some more info regarding anchoring a safe to a concrete slab. I've seen several types of hardware used, not sure which is best. If a TL rated safe was bolted to a concrete garage floor, do you think thieves could break it loose by hooking a chain to it and trying to pull it out with a truck? Or would they just damage the truck? Safeguy and a1abdj, have either of you seen incidents (either in residential or commercial settings) where thieves attacked a safe this way?
In my garage, only the lower 10 or 12 inches of the safe would be up against cinder block, then above that there would be a gap between the safe and the wall (hope I described that ok). Was thinking I could fill that gap with some wallboard, that way at least they wouldn't be able to put a chain or strap all the way around the safe. Someone could still put a chain on the door handle or hinges, but I'm guessing that wouldn't work too well? |
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Posted: 9/8/2014 5:09:25 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mingoglia:
I know this is the Amsec guy's thread, but on the topic of redundant locks I thought this was interesting. This is my Fort Knox, they're now using a 4 wheel S&G as the mechanical and have incorporated the LaGard electronic in their redundant lock. I assume this has something to do with LaGard no longer offering the redundant as an option and those using it are installing new old stock? Or at least that's what I have gathered from hearsay on the Interwebs. :) I have sent you a PM answering your questions. As discussed within, Fort Knox is currently installing Lagard 6441 4-wheel Redundant locks manufactured to order 06/2014. |
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Posted: 9/8/2014 5:28:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 123456abcdef: My question is this: is excellent fire protection pretty typical of TL rated composite safes in general? I understand if you don't want to post specifics about other brands, just wanted to get some idea. The reason I ask is that if I go the TL route, I will probably buy a used safe, which might mean buying what's available, when it's available at the right price. I've seen a bunch of TL rated safes from companies such as Diebold, Meilink, Original, Kaso, Tann, Chubb, ISM, and probably some others I've forgotten. Do you think many other TL rated composite safes could hold their own against the Amvault in fire testing? If not, would they at least provide comparable fire protection to the BF gunsafes? If I get a TL rated safe, it will probably have to go in the garage (where the car, and natural gas powered water heater are) due to size/weight, so I'd want really good fire protection. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 123456abcdef: My question is this: is excellent fire protection pretty typical of TL rated composite safes in general? I understand if you don't want to post specifics about other brands, just wanted to get some idea. The reason I ask is that if I go the TL route, I will probably buy a used safe, which might mean buying what's available, when it's available at the right price. I've seen a bunch of TL rated safes from companies such as Diebold, Meilink, Original, Kaso, Tann, Chubb, ISM, and probably some others I've forgotten. Do you think many other TL rated composite safes could hold their own against the Amvault in fire testing? If not, would they at least provide comparable fire protection to the BF gunsafes? If I get a TL rated safe, it will probably have to go in the garage (where the car, and natural gas powered water heater are) due to size/weight, so I'd want really good fire protection. There are "tricks" to make a safe fire resistant. I can't discuss most of those secrets in open forums, or even our loyal customers for that matter. Our competitors are reading these threads just like you are, and they have not invested decades into fire testing to learn these tricks, so I have to respectfully decline to help them out by talking about all the little things we do to enhance fire resistance. I can only say that it's not that simple. How well does a Brand X composite safe work in true fire conditions would largely depend on how much they know about fire safe design and how much of that technology they employ. Most high-security safes are not built with fire resistance in mind, so it's not likely they are as good as the AMVault line. How much less resistance depends on a host of factors. Next question, since there's been discussion about how much heat Tupperware can handle: how about tupperguns . Do you think that Glock frames or Pmags would be ok in 300-350 degree temps, or no? Would it be a good idea to place polymer pistols and magazines near the bottom of a safe, for the cooler temperatures?The synthetic parts of most "plastic" guns are made with "6,6 Nylon", and that has a melting point of 425-430ºF. By contrast, wood flashes at around 570ºF. We have been running an extended series of Gunsafe fire tests for the last several months. As you know, we are also testing many competitors safes. I just finished another test series at ETL two weeks ago. I have the safes outfitted with several thermocouples to watch the temperature profiles in several areas in the safe body. It is interesting to note that everyone shares a few common performance behaviors before they go into thermal meltdown. One of those observations is that there is a notable gradient from ceiling to floor. Without taking the time to study the issue carefully, I can say that generally speaking the late burn temperatures at mid-height in the safe are lower than the temperature at the ceiling by 80-90º, and around 110-120º cooler at the floor. This gradient is NOT completely due to the concept that heat rises, and I won't say any more on that subject. The door back is usually hotter than the inner walls, particularly in the jamb areas. I'll let you make your assumptions given those general parameters. |
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DE, USA
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Posted: 9/9/2014 11:00:02 AM EDT
[#31]
Safeguy, thank you for the quick response.
What are your thoughts on older Amsec TL rated safes in terms of fire protection? (I sometimes see them on the used market). Are the current AMVaults significantly better than what you were making, say 15 or 20 years ago, or are they all about the same? Again, I understand you can't share specific details of the designs, just wanted to get a general idea. |
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Posted: 9/10/2014 1:09:46 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 123456abcdef:
Safeguy, thank you for the quick response. What are your thoughts on older Amsec TL rated safes in terms of fire protection? (I sometimes see them on the used market). Are the current AMVaults significantly better than what you were making, say 15 or 20 years ago, or are they all about the same? Again, I understand you can't share specific details of the designs, just wanted to get a general idea. There are different types of TL safes out there. Before we started making true composites safes in the late 80's, safes were mostly "clad plate safes" filled with concrete. Those safes rarely had any treatment to insulate the doors or improve door closure, so the fire resistance was better than a plate safe, but not really substantial enough to be called a fire resistant safe. We started making the AMVault line around 1996, but I actually passed our TL15 & TL30 Composites and had listings in 1989. Until the AMVault line was launched, we made the safes under the model designations ACE (TL15) and ACF (TL30). The actual fire tests were conducted on ACE and ACF models before the AMVault was conceived. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/11/2014 12:28:40 PM EDT
[#33]
Questions:
Anyone know of an online source for the recommended prybar to move a vault door? Do I want a 5-6 foot bar? I cannot find one. Safes that are advertised with a ball-bearing hard plate but otherwise don't specify. What kind of steel would that likely be? Would Manganese steel likely be better than something that just says "ball bearing hard plate?" |
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USA
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Posted: 9/11/2014 12:42:55 PM EDT
[#34]
Is a redundant lock that is all in one box and shares common parts really good for being redundant as compared to having two separate electronic and dial locks, or an electronic and a swiss key lock?
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USA
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Posted: 9/11/2014 1:55:01 PM EDT
[#35]
Any sense for which of these bars is best for moving saves and vault doors?
http://www.amazon.com/True-Temper-1175200-72-Inch-Diamond/dp/B002M91G3W/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t http://www.amazon.com/True-Temper-69-Inch-Digging-1160000/dp/B000VACVPG/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t http://www.amazon.com/True-Temper-1160200-60-Inch-Crowbar/dp/B00004S1WW/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t |
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Posted: 9/11/2014 6:17:04 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By clifton:
Any sense for which of these bars is best for moving saves and vault doors? http://www.amazon.com/True-Temper-1175200-72-Inch-Diamond/dp/B002M91G3W/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t http://www.amazon.com/True-Temper-69-Inch-Digging-1160000/dp/B000VACVPG/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t http://www.amazon.com/True-Temper-1160200-60-Inch-Crowbar/dp/B00004S1WW/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t I like the third one, the 60 inch wedge. The first is okay too, but the point on the other end is dangerous. You only need a flat blade at one end for all the work. It needs to be thin at the tip, less than 1/8" thick. |
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Posted: 9/11/2014 6:19:19 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By clifton:
Is a redundant lock that is all in one box and shares common parts really good for being redundant as compared to having two separate electronic and dial locks, or an electronic and a swiss key lock? The difference is, that two locks are not "redundant". The Redundant lock is all in one box, and is activated by either dialing the right mechanical combo or keying in the right code. With the dual lock, both locks must be opened to open the safe. If one fails you are locked out. The whole idea is to have a second chance. |
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Posted: 9/11/2014 7:07:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By clifton:Safes that are advertised with a ball-bearing hard plate but otherwise don't specify. What kind of steel would that likely be? Would Manganese steel likely be better than something that just says "ball bearing hard plate?" Lots of questions, you starting a safe company? Ball Bearing Hardplate is a misleading description. There is an endless array of Ball Bearing Hardplate design possibilities. It could be a soft mild steel plate with 5 little soft steel balls in the plate, all the way up to over 100-3/8" diameter Chrome Vanadium ball bearings in a 5/8" thick piece of 4130 tool steel with a Tungsten Carbide Matrix lock nose insert and heat treated to Rc 64. The first costs around $1.80, the latter can cost over $75.00 each. Buyer beware with this kind of advertising. These plates are often buried and welded in under the lock mount plate, so you can never inspect them to see what they look like. If the safe vendor has a UL rating, then there is little chance they are cheating with some cheesy POS. If they don't have a UL rating, you will never know what your getting and it may change at any time... 
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Posted: 9/11/2014 7:29:06 PM EDT
[#39]
Lots of questions, you starting a safe company? If he's asking about what type of prybar he should use to move a vault door, it sounds more like he's getting ready to kill himself. Don't do it. Professionals die doing this type of stuff. If you don't have enough experience or guidance to know what tools it takes, then you shouldn't ever put yourself in that position. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/11/2014 9:04:59 PM EDT
[#40]
So are the Amsec TL safes 50,000 psi steel, and the Amsec vault doors are 36,000 psi steel?
Can we assume that doors such as the Brown are 36,000 psi since they don't market something better? |
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USA
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Posted: 9/11/2014 9:44:03 PM EDT
[#41]
Why use a Golden Rod that uses 5 watts when you can just use a 5 watt LED light bulb and get free light with the heat? When the door is closed, the light will absorb into the walls and turn to heat.
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Posted: 9/11/2014 11:44:24 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By clifton:
So are the Amsec TL safes 50,000 psi steel, and the Amsec vault doors are 36,000 psi steel? Can we assume that doors such as the Brown are 36,000 psi since they don't market something better? I'm really not sure what your questions are here. Different safes have different types of steel. We make a wide array of TL safes, so you'll need to be more specific. We make Vault Doors in every TL construction that we make chests. I think you may be getting mixed up reading advertisements. Most steel safes are made from either plate steel or sheet metal. They may also have hardened steel, depending on the specific model and rating. The standard "mild steel" plate required to meet UL ratings is ASTM A36 steel, which has a nominal Yield Strength of 36 ksi, and an Ultimate Tensile Strength of 50 ksi. Yield Strength is the point where applied forces will cause permanent deformation, as in beyond the elastic range where it will return to the normal shape. The Ultimate Tensile Strength (UTS) is the point where the deformation force is great enough to break. I don't know what Brown may use, but if it's plate steel, it's probably similar to A36. The 36 ksi you refer to must be the Yeild Strength, not the UTS. Does that help? |
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USA
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Posted: 9/12/2014 9:51:28 AM EDT
[#43]
Yes. Since I heard both numbers, I must have confused yield with tensile. I was thinking of the VD8036BF door and was asking if that was A36 steel. I assume it is A36 because the catalog doesn't specify something fancier.
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USA
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Posted: 9/13/2014 5:46:56 PM EDT
[#44]
What is harder to get through - $100 worth of A36 or $100 worth of AR500?
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Posted: 9/13/2014 7:55:45 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By clifton:
What is harder to get through - $100 worth of A36 or $100 worth of AR500? That's like asking if it's easier to dig a hole thru 8" of concrete or two feet of assault. The answer depends on the tools, methods, time and a host of other parameters. If you are looking at steel on a cost per square foot basis, the AR plate is almost 3 times the cost of mild steel by the pound. Metals are sold by weight. So, the AR500 would be 1/3 the thickness of an A36 steel plate of the same cost. In the case of pry attacks, the thinner AR500 may not do as well just based on the bending strength. If you are considering sawing or drilling, the AR500 is considerably superior, even with the thinner barrier. Again, your question is not specific enough to provide a coherent answer... |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 9/13/2014 7:58:35 PM EDT
[#46]
With regards to electronic locks...
Can the communication cable between the keypad and lock be yanked and cause the cable to be ripped out, yielding an inoperable lock? With an inoperable lock, will this require my safe to be drilled/cut/destroyed in order to replace the cord? Or is there another method to access the lock? Thanks, Jake |
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Posted: 9/13/2014 8:31:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By snakyjake:
With regards to electronic locks... Can the communication cable between the keypad and lock be yanked and cause the cable to be ripped out, yielding an inoperable lock? With an inoperable lock, will this require my safe to be drilled/cut/destroyed in order to replace the cord? Or is there another method to access the lock? Thanks, Jake Yes, the cable can be destroyed or torn out of the safe and render the lock useless. That would require drilling, and no, there are no easy recovery methods short of drilling. However, that's no different that someone beating a dial into the door with a hammer. You are still looking at a drill job. The hammer attack would likely set the relocker on an RSC safe, and that would usually require two holes to remedy. Drilling a safe is not the big disaster that everyone seems to be concerned with. A competent safe tech can repair a drill hole and make it much better than the original barrier if they know what they are doing and have the conventional repair resources. If they are good, they will do all the drilling under the keypad/dial footprint, so there is no real concern with cosmetics and refinishing. If you ask me, this whole push for redundancy is hype to scare consumers into spending more. The failure rates on quality locks, both mechanical and electronic, is so low that it does not warrant these extraordinary measures. The repair costs are not so extreme that the cost of the redundant lock systems is probably not recovered over the long haul. More important, these redundant products have not been out very long, so we really don't know how they will perform long term. In manufacturing, simplicity is king. The additional complexity of the redundant mechanism could be (likely will be) a double-edged sword that reduces reliability. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 9/13/2014 11:13:51 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
If you ask me, this whole push for redundancy is hype to scare consumers into spending more. The failure rates on quality locks, both mechanical and electronic, is so low that it does not warrant these extraordinary measures. The repair costs are not so extreme that the cost of the redundant lock systems is probably not recovered over the long haul. More important, these redundant products have not been out very long, so we really don't know how they will perform long term. In manufacturing, simplicity is king. The additional complexity of the redundant mechanism could be (likely will be) a double-edged sword that reduces reliability. [/span][/span] You're obviously not taking into account the inevitable EMP attack and subsequent zombie attack rendering your electronic locks useless.. |
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Posted: 9/13/2014 11:47:24 PM EDT
[#49]
You're obviously not taking into account the inevitable EMP attack and subsequent zombie attack rendering your electronic locks useless.. The zombies are notorious for causing damage while changing the batteries.
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USA
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Posted: 9/14/2014 1:13:13 AM EDT
[#50]
You may have answered this in your past comments on "UL Equivalency," but can a well designed 1.5 inch A36 door, say with a hard plate and relockers, still pass TL-15 in 2014? Or is the current state of UL testing such that 1.5 inch A36 plates are obsolete and modern safes need to be steel layered with high strength concrete aggregated with carbide nuggets?
Also, there are so many ways to make hardplates - I read about ball bearings, hardened pins, carbide granuals, manganese-alloy steel, diamond impregnated surfaces, etc. What are some of your favorites? I mean not what you would pick for a mass produced product, but what is interesting for the fun of defeating a drill if you were building a one-off? As for redundancy - I really don't want to have to call a locksmith and wonder if the bill will be $600 or $1400. I don't want a new hole in my safe either, even under the keypad. I would much rather pay up front and then not worry about it. But anyone who thinks an EMP knocking out their electronic lock is something that they need to prepare for is nuts. Smith offers a 5 inch mechanical backup key for $175. Not sure if it is like the Swiss locks mentioned. |
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