Armory Sponsor
Posted: 7/19/2026 7:09:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer][Edited]
|
IMR4064 is what I settled on for my 308 loadings. All of them use IMR4064 - 155, 168, 175, 190 SMK's. As it turns out, I have ZERO pounds of IMR4064. The other situation is, there is no IMR4064 available for sale. Apparently, I have ignored my 308 for far too long. I have a whole bunch of H4350. Will that work? I always have fun reviewing and analyzing my inventory spreadsheet. It has morphed into much more than a simple log of what's in stock. UPDATE - Thanks to all of you for contributing and for the help, this thread has reached 47 posts in length with 20 recommended powders. In post #33, I stated that I've solved both the issue of a replacement powder that I already have on hand (TAC) and mention I have found a use for my H4350. When I get them loaded and tested I will post the results. Because of your help, I am sure the results will be just fine. |
Joined:
Mar 2026
Posts:
558
EE: 100% (1)
OH, USA
Joined:
Jan 2023
Posts:
3511
EE: 0% (0)
OK, USA
|
Originally Posted By Ohio_Man: If you’re near Northeast Ohio and or I don’t have to pay hazmat shit… I can hook you up with 4064 Varget was scarce for a while so I loaded up on 4064 as a direct replacement, and now I have a bunch. Great offer, thanks. Unfortunately, I am out on the left coast. |
|
VihtaVuori has a free online data source for their powders. I would suggest VV N140 and N150 instead of IMR-4064. VihtaVuori powders are cheaper than Hodgdon brands nowadays, which is a plus. They used to be "too expensive", which is why very few people tried them. N150 is my favorite powder for .308. |
|
Originally Posted By Trollslayer: The way this thread reads, I have almost too many options. I think I'll head over to GRT and see what that tool says about some of these options. Just discovered GRT, neat tool, there is a LOT to it... Been reloading N135, N140 (both single base) and they are great powders. I think N540 (500 series is double based) would be closer to Varget and MAYBE 4064. Good luck! |
Then President Biden added “The only garbage I see floating out there is [TRUMP] supporters.
|
Originally Posted By Trollslayer: The way this thread reads, I have almost too many options. I think I'll head over to GRT and see what that tool says about some of these options. In this case, I think you will find there are too many options that are good on paper, but luckily that are also available. With the way the world runs these days, it is even more difficult to predict when things like IMR4064 will come around again. So the real challenge is figuring out when, if ever, to bulk up on your new alternative powder. I just poked the market and would say you are in luck at the moment since many good alternatives are available. This means you can clamp down on those parameter tolerances in the models and not worry about cutting down the list. Good Luck and in for the reports on what your models and tests find! |
|
We see have a failure to communicate..... Forget Alliant powders. So erratic with domestic production and well imported Reloder stuff vaporware most of the time. IMR powders save for 3031 and 4350 which are Canadian made, and 8208 and 4227 which are made down under for Hodgdon. Are about the only powders in IMR line. 3031 was an old school 308 powder. I used when I started reloading the 308. Good results. Hodgdon Imported stuff from down under seems to be readily available like Varget not a fan of H4895 in 308 with heavier bullets Hodgdon Domestic stuff nothing offers IMHO decent results Ramshot TAC is possibility there was an interweb rumor that TAC was in Black Hills Match 308 at one time. VV is the most consistent offering these days. N140, N540, and some use N150. |
jme and I am a NRA Endowment Member
Don't be too timid and squeamish about your actions. All life is an experiment. The more experiments you make the better.
R W Emerson
Don't be too timid and squeamish about your actions. All life is an experiment. The more experiments you make the better.
R W Emerson
|
I have a strong incentive to try and make H4350 work. That is, I have 16 pounds of it that is otherwise unallocated to any cartridge since I stopped using it for 6mm. That's $1k in a premium powder. I can't seem to get past that. Also, the list of powders you guys have provided is too long. While that's encouraging, there's no way to test them all. GRT says it will work as well as any other powder, albeit a different powder charge and a very slightly different pressure curve. Still, it will be safe and have good velocity. Also, I intended my TAC and VARGET to be used in 223 rounds. I could use either or both and replace what I use, as they are available, however, that still leaves 16 pounds of H4350 sitting on the shelf. What that means is, I'm going to at least try it for all the reasons above. I will likely load TAC, VARGET and H4350 and test all three. I'll be looking for a technical discriminator with H4350 being preferred but not required. I'll let you guys know, no matter the outcome. Does that make sense? |
|
I'm in a similar position as you re: imr4064. I have a ramshot tac load that is pretty similar speed and accuracy wise to my 4064 load with168gr matchkings in 308. If you have any near you, try a pound of winchester staball match. After a few workups I have a consistent load that will put 10 rounds into just over 3/4 of an inch at 100yds. I have been impressed with staball match to say the least, that and it has been available recently. 
|
|
Originally Posted By GlockWrench: I'm in a similar position as you re: imr4064. I have a ramshot tac load that is pretty similar speed and accuracy wise to my 4064 load with168gr matchkings in 308. If you have any near you, try a pound of winchester staball match. After a few workups I have a consistent load that will put 10 rounds into just over 3/4 of an inch at 100yds. I have been impressed with staball match to say the least, that and it has been available recently. Sta-Ball match was up near the top of my list of powders to try until I spotted my H4350 conundrum. |
|
The only real problem with the 308 WIN and H4350, is it is too "slow" even with the SMK 175 to push. While it works great in the 30-06 with the bullets from about 165 and up, it doesn't have the best burn in a 308 WIN with a 24" bbl. I realize you have a good stash of it sitting there, but it doesn't really fit the bill. It will certainly toss a bullet downrange, but it will chase it with a significant puff of unburnt powder and that rarely gives good performance. ETA: I just noticed your GRT model shows roughly 85% burn, which matches experience. |
|
Originally Posted By RegionRat: The only real problem with the 308 WIN and H4350, is it is too "slow" even with the SMK 175 to push. While it works great in the 30-06 with the bullets from about 165 and up, it doesn't have the best burn in a 308 WIN with a 24" bbl. I realize you have a good stash of it sitting there, but it doesn't really fit the bill. It will certainly toss a bullet downrange, but it will chase it with a significant puff of unburnt powder and that rarely gives good performance. ETA: I just noticed your GRT model shows roughly 85% burn, which matches experience. I changed the GRT case to show a 32" barrel and even that still burned only 87.9% of a 45 gr load. On a lark, I also tried a case with the maximum allowed barrel length (2 meters, 78.7"). It still hadn't burned all the powder.  Using H4350 may be inefficient but 85% burned is better than sitting on the shelf at 0%. ARGH! When I ran the case for 155 gr bullets, GRT was even warning me about inconsistent combustion and possible errors in the simulation due to the low burn fraction. This may be a show stopper, as it has to work for all bullet weights (155 to 190 gr). I don't like the inefficiency or the very high loading density, but I am going to try it. If it's inaccurate, has highly variable velocity, ridiculously dirty, or fails to go as fast as predicted, I will have to use something else. When I do this test, I will also be testing Varget and TAC because I have those on hand. Certainly, you guys have given me a lot of other viable options. |
|
Originally Posted By Pointman91: OP, maybe you can find someone close to trade out some of your 4350? Do you have a local trader board there? Maybe post in the EE and hometown forum. It's a good idea, thanks. My best option is probably to sell or raffle it off at my gun club. I have no other options. It cannot be shipped (by me). I don't do Facebook, Craigs List, Etsy or anything like that. Living on the fringes of a BIG city, I do not want to advertise that I have gun powder at my home. |
|
H4350 is slower than the IMR variety, but many people used IMR-4350 with heavy bullets (190's and 200's) in 30"+ long barrels. Usually touching or jamming the rifling, getting 2550 fps in .308 using 190's from a 30" barrel. N140 works great in .223 and .308. Some people have used N150 in .223 combined with long barrels (24" to 30") and bullets seated long for loading one at a time prone tournaments. Some even jamming the bullets a little. Varget is so popular because it works so well in multiple calibers and is usually one of the more consistently accurate options. I avoid ball powders nowadays. Single base extruded powders have a forgiving load window and rarely spike pressures in the summertime. Try N140, even if you only by one pound to test it. N140 is a lot cheaper than IMR-4064, it's available and it works great. |
|
I went back to check the original application for all this H4350 - the 6XC cartridge. H4350 achieves burnout inside the bore when used in that cartridge in that barrel. So does the MAGNUM powder that has replaced the H4350. Looking again at 308, surprisingly, VARGET, W748 and N-150 achieve burnout "after muzzle passage". TAC, N-140 and the original IMR4064 achieve burnout inside the bore. Hmmm,... |
|
Originally Posted By Trollslayer: This is 45.0 gr of H4350 with a 175 SMK. It yields 2535 fps using my 24", 1/10" twist barrel. 47.0 gr yields 2647 fps and still has 14% margin but that is a FULL case (but not a compressed load). https://i.ibb.co/cKk0Cb5q/308-Win-175-SMK-H4350.jpg Sorry, replied to one of your posts and subsequent posts discuss this in part, will leave it though with my experience. Not sure but if I am seeing the GRT graph right, it looks like you run out of barrel before the powder is burned up (inefficient, dirty). I like burnout in the barrel, 10-20% before end, clean, efficient use of the powder). This also lends to better/more consistent pressures, ES, SD, groups. IMO... |
Then President Biden added “The only garbage I see floating out there is [TRUMP] supporters.
|
Originally Posted By RWEIII: Sorry, replied to one of your posts and subsequent posts discuss this in part, will leave it though with my experience. Not sure but if I am seeing the GRT graph right, it looks like you run out of barrel before the powder is burned up (inefficient, dirty). I like burnout in the barrel, 10-20% before end, clean, efficient use of the powder). This also lends to better/more consistent pressures, ES, SD, groups. IMO... TAC burns out at about 17" inside my 24" barrel. TAC offers a smidge higher muzzle velocity. I have a lot of TAC on hand. TAC is readily available online for resupply. I should document all these GRT cases I am running. P.S. - Thanks for the discussion, guys. With your help, I have now navigated a path thru my 308 dilemma. I have also solved the H4350 issue but I'll save that for another thread. |
Joined:
Nov 2022
Posts:
4984
EE: 100% (4)
SC, USA
|
Originally Posted By Redman556: BL-C(2) is a good one as well. It started out as a mil powder for the 7.62 NATO rounds, then was used in competition for decades. I was an active competitor from 1983 through 2003, competing in more than 150 high power tournaments. I never heard of a single person using BL-C(2). I'm sure someone did, but I never heard of it. The four main powders when I started were; IMR-4895 IMR-4064 H4895 IMR-3031 In the 1990's Varget became popular. Military issue M118 (173 grain FMJ's) was loaded with ball powder and shot for shit. Probably BL-C(2). It was opined that the dies used to produce the 173 grain M72/M118 FMJ's were worn out, but that doesn't make sense because dies are a wear item and replaced as needed. M852 shot much better, but Sierra 168's are hard to get not to shoot. |
|
Varget N 140 Staball Match. Is worth a look. Have had good luck with 748 but watch your temps. The price of H4895 and RL15 is outrageous and it is hard to find .the last time I saw RL15 3-4 months ago locally at a place with generally good powder prices it was over $70 per lb. Like pointed out prices have got so out of hand Vihtavuori is now a budget powder . 
|
|
Originally Posted By borderpatrol: I was an active competitor from 1983 through 2003, competing in more than 150 high power tournaments. I never heard of a single person using BL-C(2). I'm sure someone did, but I never heard of it. The four main powders when I started were; IMR-4895 IMR-4064 H4895 IMR-3031 In the 1990's Varget became popular. Military issue M118 (173 grain FMJ's) was loaded with ball powder and shot for shit. Probably BL-C(2). It was opined that the dies used to produce the 173 grain M72/M118 FMJ's were worn out, but that doesn't make sense because dies are a wear item and replaced as needed. M852 shot much better, but Sierra 168's are hard to get not to shoot. Originally Posted By borderpatrol: Originally Posted By Redman556: BL-C(2) is a good one as well. It started out as a mil powder for the 7.62 NATO rounds, then was used in competition for decades. I was an active competitor from 1983 through 2003, competing in more than 150 high power tournaments. I never heard of a single person using BL-C(2). I'm sure someone did, but I never heard of it. The four main powders when I started were; IMR-4895 IMR-4064 H4895 IMR-3031 In the 1990's Varget became popular. Military issue M118 (173 grain FMJ's) was loaded with ball powder and shot for shit. Probably BL-C(2). It was opined that the dies used to produce the 173 grain M72/M118 FMJ's were worn out, but that doesn't make sense because dies are a wear item and replaced as needed. M852 shot much better, but Sierra 168's are hard to get not to shoot. I saw it used in .223 at Perry, and used it some myself. Nobody ever ended up onstage with it, but yea, I have seen it. Most .223 and .308 powders are interchangeable. Except for the bullkier extruded ones like 4064. |
| I started with 4895 20 years ago and switched to 4064 about a year later. I couple of years ago I decided to try 2520 because I had grown tired of dealing with extruded powders and with the supply issue that came with it. My life is so much better, I can crank out loads so much easier and faster now. My ES is 24 fps and SD is 7 fps with 2520 and accuracy at 700 yards is damned fine! I no longer have access to anything further for the moment but I’m happy with the results. I have one keg of 2520 left and when that is finished I’ll switch over to StaBall match. |
If a 147 grn 9mm at 1000 FPS is the hammer of Thor then a 165 grn. 40 at 1200 fps must a lightening bolt from Zeus!
|
Originally Posted By Ghostface: I started with 4895 20 years ago and switched to 4064 about a year later. I couple of years ago I decided to try 2520 because I had grown tired of dealing with extruded powders and with the supply issue that came with it. My life is so much better, I can crank out loads so much easier and faster now. My ES is 24 fps and SD is 7 fps with 2520 and accuracy at 700 yards is damned fine! I no longer have access to anything further for the moment but I’m happy with the results. I have one keg of 2520 left and when that is finished I’ll switch over to StaBall match. I think I understand the switch to Sta-Ball Match but 2520 is readily available right now at around $40+/lb. One supplier has StaBall Match at under $40/lb. |
|
I had bought a ton of 2520 when I switched from 4064 in 2021, I’m on my lest keg of 2520. I get great accuracy from it and the temp sensitivity isn’t an issue for me as I do load development in the summer and I don’t typically run max loads. I bought a few kegs of StaBall match at a decent price last year so that is why I’m switching. I hope that makes sense. ETA I went with StaBall match because of the temp stability, might as well right? |
If a 147 grn 9mm at 1000 FPS is the hammer of Thor then a 165 grn. 40 at 1200 fps must a lightening bolt from Zeus!
|
Originally Posted By borderpatrol: VihtaVuori has a free online data source for their powders. I would suggest VV N140 and N150 instead of IMR-4064. VihtaVuori powders are cheaper than Hodgdon brands nowadays, which is a plus. They used to be "too expensive", which is why very few people tried them. N150 is my favorite powder for .308. VV Powders have been awesome since I started trying them after Hodgdon went crazy with their pricing. |
|
Originally Posted By RWEIII: Just discovered GRT, neat tool, there is a LOT to it... Been reloading N135, N140 (both single base) and they are great powders. I think N540 (500 series is double based) would be closer to Varget and MAYBE 4064. Good luck! Originally Posted By RWEIII: Originally Posted By Trollslayer: The way this thread reads, I have almost too many options. I think I'll head over to GRT and see what that tool says about some of these options. Just discovered GRT, neat tool, there is a LOT to it... Been reloading N135, N140 (both single base) and they are great powders. I think N540 (500 series is double based) would be closer to Varget and MAYBE 4064. Good luck! I've found GRT to not be quite as accurate as Quickload on the first try looking up loads, but on one hand GRT has better tools to actually dial in your loads and get the model to match your specific powder/rifle/lot # etc. I also like it's free and can get updates quicker on their discord server. |
|
Originally Posted By Trollslayer: I have a strong incentive to try and make H4350 work. That is, I have 16 pounds of it that is otherwise unallocated to any cartridge since I stopped using it for 6mm. That's $1k in a premium powder. I can't seem to get past that. Also, the list of powders you guys have provided to long. While that's encouraging, there's no way to test them all. GRT says it will work as well as any other powder, albeit a different powder charge and a very slightly different pressure curve. Still, it will be safe and have good velocity. Also, I intended my TAC and VARGET to be used in 223 rounds. I could use either or both and replace what I use, as they are available, however, that still leaves 16 pounds of H4350 sitting on the shelf. What that means is, I'm going to at least try it for all the reasons above. I will likely load TAC, VARGET and H4350 and test all three. I'll be looking for a technical discriminator with H4350 being preferred but not required. I'll let you guys know, no matter the outcome. Does that make sense? I think H4350 has too slow of burn rate for 308. My Dad sourced some H4350 for me when I thought I had a load developed for it, but turns out I didn't really. I found it too slow burning for my 7mm08 in the 150 gr bullets and almost too slow for some 30-06 with 180gr Barnes TTSX bullets I sourced from American Reloading a long time ago for stupid cheap. I'm gonna load those 30-06 up though, because I do think it will work. I might have to break down and actually buy a 6.5 Creed now that I have 8lbs of it. The Little Crow Gunworks youtube channel completely changed how I select powder now. I want powders that have complete burn by the time the bullet exits the barrel. I tried his methods and it's a solid way to rule out certain powders. |
|
Originally Posted By Trollslayer: This is 45.0 gr of H4350 with a 175 SMK. It yields 2535 fps using my 24", 1/10" twist barrel. 47.0 gr yields 2647 fps and still has 14% margin but that is a FULL case (but not a compressed load). https://i.ibb.co/cKk0Cb5q/308-Win-175-SMK-H4350.jpg You're only burning 85.2% of that powder. I'd be looking for one with a faster burn rate and aim for 100% burn. |
|
Originally Posted By memsu: I think H4350 has too slow of burn rate for 308. My Dad sourced some H4350 for me when I thought I had a load developed for it, but turns out I didn't really. I found it too slow burning for my 7mm08 in the 150 gr bullets and almost too slow for some 30-06 with 180gr Barnes TTSX bullets I sourced from American Reloading a long time ago for stupid cheap. I'm gonna load those 30-06 up though, because I do think it will work. I might have to break down and actually buy a 6.5 Creed now that I have 8lbs of it. The Little Crow Gunworks youtube channel completely changed how I select powder now. I want powders that have complete burn by the time the bullet exits the barrel. I tried his methods and it's a solid way to rule out certain powders. Originally Posted By memsu: Originally Posted By Trollslayer: I have a strong incentive to try and make H4350 work. That is, I have 16 pounds of it that is otherwise unallocated to any cartridge since I stopped using it for 6mm. That's $1k in a premium powder. I can't seem to get past that. Also, the list of powders you guys have provided to long. While that's encouraging, there's no way to test them all. GRT says it will work as well as any other powder, albeit a different powder charge and a very slightly different pressure curve. Still, it will be safe and have good velocity. Also, I intended my TAC and VARGET to be used in 223 rounds. I could use either or both and replace what I use, as they are available, however, that still leaves 16 pounds of H4350 sitting on the shelf. What that means is, I'm going to at least try it for all the reasons above. I will likely load TAC, VARGET and H4350 and test all three. I'll be looking for a technical discriminator with H4350 being preferred but not required. I'll let you guys know, no matter the outcome. Does that make sense? I think H4350 has too slow of burn rate for 308. My Dad sourced some H4350 for me when I thought I had a load developed for it, but turns out I didn't really. I found it too slow burning for my 7mm08 in the 150 gr bullets and almost too slow for some 30-06 with 180gr Barnes TTSX bullets I sourced from American Reloading a long time ago for stupid cheap. I'm gonna load those 30-06 up though, because I do think it will work. I might have to break down and actually buy a 6.5 Creed now that I have 8lbs of it. The Little Crow Gunworks youtube channel completely changed how I select powder now. I want powders that have complete burn by the time the bullet exits the barrel. I tried his methods and it's a solid way to rule out certain powders. +1 at least very high 90’s percent total burn is my goal. |
|
Thanks to all of you for contributing and for the help, this thread has reached 47 posts in length. As far back as post #33, I stated that I've solved both the issue of a replacement powder that I already have on hand (TAC) and mention I have found a use for my H4350. I compiled this list of 20 powders already recommended - VARGET TAC H4895 W748 IMR3031 Enduron4166 IMR4895 Reloader15 AA2495 H380 8208 N140 N135 ARComp N150 N540 StaBallMatch BL-C(2) AA2520 Benchmark |
Armory Sponsor