User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
SC, USA
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Posted: 2/20/2006 10:31:09 PM EDT
[#1]
I have looked all over the ATF's website and over my form 1 and see nothing about filling out a citizenship form. Do I do one, where do I download it, or is that only if you are appling for an FFL...any help would be great....
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Posted: 2/20/2006 10:41:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: fq1234]
[#2]
Yes, send it. Here it is |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 2/21/2006 10:03:23 AM EDT
[#3]
And I put my name in both places...I dont need another person? right...print my name twice and sign...
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Posted: 2/21/2006 10:38:06 AM EDT
[#4]
Is there a list or chart someplace that shows barrel length = overall length?
For instance 7" barrel length = xx" overall length 10.5" barrel length = xx" overall length 11.5" barrel length = xx" overall length 14.5" barrel length = xx" overall length and so on.... Are different brands/styles of stock part of the mix? Since you can't estimate length anymore, do you have to do precise measuring? For instance if a Brand C stock is .5" shorter then Brand D will that make a difference? |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 2/21/2006 10:45:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: INTrooper4255]
[#5]
I called LMT and had them measure a MRP CQB with a 10.5 inch barrel. That was the only thing that I could think of. If you know which rifle and upper you are going to purchase, just call the manufacturer. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 2/21/2006 6:10:35 PM EDT
[#6]
bushmaster posts sizes on there website....an 11.5" should have and overall length of 27.75 "
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Posted: 2/22/2006 7:40:35 AM EDT
[#7]
Thanks. I don't see that listed on their page anyplace, I don't even see the 11.5 shown as an option for complete rifles on their LE page. But I appreciate the help. |
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Posted: 2/22/2006 8:32:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Lancelot]
[#8]
Okay Bushmaster shows the 16" Carbine to have an overall length of 34.75" with the stock extended, and 31.75" with the stock retracted. I don't know if that length includes the flash hider or not.
A 10.5" barrel is 5.5" shorter then the 16" barrel. So doing the math: 10.5" barrel 34.75 - 5.5 = 29.25 Extended 31.75 - 5.5 = 26.25 Retracted 11.5" barrel 34.75 - 4.5 = 30.25 Extended 31.75 - 4.5 = 27.25 Retracted 14.5" barrel 33.5" Extended 30.25 Retracted And just for grins.... the 7" barrel is 9" shorter then the 16" so: 7" barrel 34.75 - 9 = 25.75 Extended 31.75 - 9 = 21.25 Retracted Since the indication is you have to give them a number, not just a range, does this look close enough? Would you use the extended or retracted length? From Bushmaster via email: The 11.5" Short Barreled Rifles with 6 position stocks are 27-3/4"OAL with the stock retracted and 31-5/8" OAL with the stock extended. Thank you, Jim Eden, Tech Support 1-800-883-6229 |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 2/22/2006 9:50:56 AM EDT
[#9]
When I called LMT and told then that I was purchasing an LMT MRP CQB with a 10.5 inch barrel, he put me on hold and measured one with the stock extended and told me that the overall length was 31.5 inches.
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WI, USA
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Posted: 2/22/2006 10:27:35 PM EDT
[#10]
thanks for this posting, forms ordered
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SC, USA
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Posted: 2/22/2006 10:30:18 PM EDT
[#11]
i got that size from here... http://www.bushmaster.com/electronic-documents/2006CatalogV1/P80-Cover%20LEmodels.pdf it shows that 27.75 should be for a retracted stock... thats what i'm putting on my form 1... i think your method of math should work enough for the ATFs approval. they just dont want things like >16 they want something fairly close...
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SC, USA
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Posted: 2/22/2006 10:31:15 PM EDT
[#12]
and it will include flash hider... should be total length
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Posted: 2/22/2006 10:52:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: fq1234]
[#13]
BATF measures AO length with the stock open, not retracted. CA, MI, and maybe a few others measure the length closed, but not the Feds. You should use the OA lenght of your rifle with the stock in the open position.
Since BATF doesn't count the FH for barrel length towards the 16 inch barrel minimum (ie why a 14.5 inch barrel with nonperm. attached FH doesn't count as 16 inch), I doubt they would count it when measuring the length of a SBR (unless of course it is perm. attached). |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 8:32:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Lancelot]
[#14]
Per Bushmaster
16" Barrel = 32.5" OAL stock closed 14.5" Barrel with Izzy = 30.875 OAL stock closed 11.5" Barrel = 27.75" OAL stock closed (4.75" shorter then the 16") My math had the 11.5 at 27.25 so I was close. I wonder if the .5 is the flash hider? And is close, close enough on a Form 1? Makes that <16" look better all the time.... |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:23:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: boomfab]
[#15]
o
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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:28:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: fq1234]
[#16]
I'd love to have a copy of the letter for myself. Do you happen to have the letter that this letter is in response to? Damn, that letter arrive pretty quickly. It was written in WV on the 21st and arrived by the 24th in MO. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:30:52 PM EDT
[#17]
Bureau Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives Attention: Firearms Technology Branch 244 Needy Road Martinsburg, West Virginia 25401 Subject: Short-barrel rifle (”SBR”) markings I am writing to you to seek clarification on a NFA related questions. I am planning to register several firearms as SBR. These firearms are a HK94 rifle and a SP89 pistol. Both are originally manufactured and imported by Heckler & Koch (“HK”), Chantilly, VA and marked so accordingly on the receiver. To register these firearms as a SBR, I would have to fill out a Form 1 “Application to Make and Register a Firearm”. Once the Form 1 was approved by the NFA Branch I was planning to reduce the barrel length of the HK94 rifle to 9” and to purchase a stock for the SP89 pistol that would allow me to fire the firearm from the shoulder. As the instructions on Form 1 clearly point out in section 2.h.: “Serial Numbers and other Markings. If an existing firearm is being modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number of the firearm into item 4g and the name and address of the original manufacturer into item 4a. Do not Alter or Modify the Existing Serial Number. If the NFA firearm is being made from parts, your name and address are to be entered into 4a and a serial number you create is to be entered into item 4g.” I would enter “HK Chantilly, VA” into item 4a. as the manufactured of the firearm and leave the serial number unaltered. My question now relates to any additional markings that would or would not have to be placed on the actual firearms once the Form 1 has been approved and the necessary alterations to the firearm have taken place. Do I as the applicant on Form 1 have to engrave the receiver with my name, city and state? The instructions on From 1 do not mention any additional markings that would be required to be placed on the actual firearm that has not been assembled from parts. I contacted Rob Howard, a legal examiner at the NFA Branch, and he told me that no further markings, beside the original manufacture’s markings (incl. the original serial number) would be required and that I would not have to add my name, city and state to the receiver. I am seeking written confirmation of this statement from the technology branch to ensure that my NFA firearms are correctly marked. Thank you very much for addressing my question and please let me know if you require further information. Regards, XXXXXX |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:38:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: boomfab]
[#18]
As I said. It is NOT my letter. From HKPRO |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:45:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: fq1234]
[#19]
No matter who it was addressed to, it was quick. I'm used to waiting months on the BATF to accomplish anything. Most of my Form 1s have taken atleast a week to go from DC to PA after approved (1-2 hour drive). My point - everything seems to be speeding up. ETA - Thanks for posting the original letter, it clears a few things up. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:48:37 PM EDT
[#20]
So,do we now agree...it is NOT needed????
I REALLY don't want ot do this if it's not needed! |
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Posted: 2/25/2006 2:53:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SSeric02]
[#21]
Another question on overall lengths: Are different receiver extensions and collapsible stocks different lengths? For example, is the Colt M4 stock with mil-spec 4 position extension the same length as a CMT M4 stock with mil-spec 6 position extension or a Bushmaster M4-type stock with a non mil-spec 6 position extension?
The reason I ask is that the overall length of the Colt Commando with 11.5 barrel is different than what Bushmaster states for their 11.5 barreled carbines. From Colt's website: OVERALL LENGTH 30 in (76.0 cm) Stock Retracted 26.8 in (68.0 cm) BARREL LENGTH 11.5 in (29.0 cm) |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 2/25/2006 10:27:58 AM EDT
[#22]
thanks for your great comments... but you misunderstood. all I was saying is that the bushy site i was referencing was for TOTAL length...not weather thats what you need for the ATF or if the ATF counts the FH....but you knew that because you a vet right
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Posted: 2/25/2006 1:43:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: fq1234]
[#23]
Your post was vague. Try to be a little more clear, maybe try complete sentences or thoughts, and then we may be able to understand what you are saying. Even if I were a vet, I wouldn't be able to read your mind. Do you have a problem with vets? |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 2/25/2006 3:23:09 PM EDT
[#24]
"Since BATF doesn't count the FH for barrel length towards the 16 inch barrel minimum (ie why a 14.5 inch barrel with nonperm. attached FH doesn't count as 16 inch), I doubt they would count it when measuring the length of a SBR (unless of course it is perm. attached)." [/quo
-you do not include a flash hider when measuring a barrel because it is NOT part of the "barrel"....but when measuring a complete rifle why would you not include the flash hider when it IS part of the complete rifle. and I meant Vet in reference to you saying that I was a newbie... and you must be a vetern...(of this website,...of gunsmithing...of what ever) ...NOT meaning of the military. I'm just trying to learn and add some thoughts with my experience....it is clear that when it comes to this stuff there is not exactly a very clear method provided by the government to complete some of these tasks...so excuse me if my experience is not at the level of yours. my apologies to all... |
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Posted: 2/25/2006 3:52:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Just trying to help.
A rifle can be considered an SBR even if it has a barrel longer than 16 inches. If the overall length of the rifle is below 26 inches, it is also an SBR. This is why they ask for the OAL on the Form 1. Bushmaster sells an 18 inch barrel for the mini uzi. Since folding stocks weren't allowed during the AWB, these barrels allowed mini uzi owners to remove the thumbhole stock completely and still maintain an OAL over 26 inches. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2006 12:01:22 PM EDT
[#26]
My thought or question is...and maybe you guys that have been doing this for a while know is...if you have a rifle with a barrel over sixteen inches but an overall length of less than 26 when the stock is closed but more than 26 when the stock is opened...wouldnt the ATF be more concerned with the shorter measurement..like you were saying....even with a 16" barrel and overall length of less than 26 makes it a SBR....i would just hate to put down the longer length and then get inspected and they wanted the shorter length...i thought the reason these regulations went into affect was becuase of concealability of a firearm so thats why i thought they would want the shortest measurement....any thooughts
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Posted: 2/28/2006 2:03:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: fq1234]
[#28]
I have several corp form 4s. The most recent one was approved less than a month ago (for a silencer). I did not sent in fingerprint cards or photos. I also did not fill out the back side of the form, it is unnecessary for a corp transfer. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/1/2006 12:43:15 PM EDT
[#29]
From what I am hearing ..
The check/MO needs to pay to "Department of Treasury" The form 1 can now be mailed to the following address inWVA: National Firearms Act Branch 244 Needy Road Martinsburg, West Virginia 25401 I've also read that another individual mailed his form to WVA and received approval in 5 weeks. Therefore I took a chance and mailed my form 1 application to W. VA on March 1st, 2006. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=14&t=270966 |
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Posted: 3/2/2006 9:53:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: gsu2720]
[#30]
Is there a general consensus from the group as to the legality of owning multiple Short barreled uppers for one SBR receiver if you also own other AR rifles? I have sent off my forms, but I want more than one upper. I have a couple other AR rifles, and don't want to get in any trouble.
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Posted: 3/3/2006 1:02:17 AM EDT
[#31]
Hi folks - considering submitting my SBR paperwork, and I Just read through the FAQ and 19 pages of this thread, and had a few questions:
First off, it's the lower receiver that is registered, correct ? That means if I want multiple lower receivers, I have to pay the tax, and send in the SBR paperwork for each one, correct ? Assuming the above is right, is the process generally quicker after the first one is approved ? Last, but not least, as per the letter posted on the latter pages of this thread, I wanted to confirm that ENGRAVING YOUR INFO on the receiver is NOT required, correct ? Thanks! |
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Posted: 3/3/2006 6:15:22 AM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 3/3/2006 10:00:49 AM EDT
[#33]
My first one took a long time, so have all my others. I don't think the followups are quicker except on the rare occasions where someone contacts the examiner and asks them to use the fingerprint cards that were used in another very recent application. The new office in West Virginia is reported to be quicker than the old DC office. My only application to go through them wasn't quick because there was a problem with the form. Once they actually sent the form back (5 months later), they approved it and got it back to me in less than a week. |
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Posted: 3/4/2006 12:18:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Thanks for the info.
Is it ok to put: '.223 (5.56)' for caliber, or is that something that might get the form sent back to me for correction ? |
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Posted: 3/4/2006 4:47:51 PM EDT
[#35]
tag. Am am thinking about a 7.5 and a 14.5 I only own one lower though. |
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Posted: 3/4/2006 4:56:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: M4Madness]
[#36]
The BATF letter that I've seen says that you shouldn't have spare short barrel uppers around if you also own a non-SBR AR-15. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS WASHINGTON, DC 20226 MAR 29 2000 Dear Mr. : This refers to your letter of January 22, 1999, requesting information on the legality of possessing a registered full auto AR15 and also possessing one or more semiautomatic pre-1994 assembled AR15 rifles. You appended a number of specific questions relating to this subject which will be answered in the order received. Is it legal to own both? There are no provisions under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) or the National Firearms Act (NFA) that prevent an individual from possessing an AR15 registered machinegun and one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles at the same time. If legal to own both, which spare parts for the registered gun can you also own? Any weapon which shoots automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger meets the definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) of the NFA. An AR15 rifle which is assembled with certain M16 machinegun fire control components, and which is capable of shooting automatically is a machinegun as defined. The definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. Thus, an AR15 rifle possessed with separate M16 machinegun components can meet the definition of a machinegun, if the rifle shoots automatically when the components are installed. The fact that a person lawfully possesses a registered NFA firearm does not grant authorization to possess additional non-registered firearms. A person who possesses a registered M16 machinegun and a semiautomatic AR15 and a separate quantity of M16 machinegun components could be in possession of two machineguns. We advise any person who possesses an AR15 rifle not to possess M16 fire control components (trigger, hammer, disconnector, selector, and bolt carrier). If a person possessed only the M16 machinegun and spare M16 fire control components for that machinegun, the person would possess only one machinegun. Is it legal to use the upper receiver off of the semi-auto AR's on the registered AR if they are different lengths and calibers than listed on the Form 4's? Before changing the caliber of a registered machinegun you should notify the NFA Branch in writing of the proposed change. Can you have several short barrel uppers (less than 16 inches) for the registered AR and still own semi-auto AR's? The definition of a firearm in section 5845 of the NFA includes a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. An individual possessing more than one short (less than 16 inches) barreled upper receiver for a registered AR15 machinegun (or SBR) along with one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles would have under their possession of control an unregistered short barreled rifle, a violation of the NFA. If you change the barrel length or caliber do I need to notify your office if the change is not a permanent one? This question was answered under Question 3. We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us. Sincerely yours, [signed] Edward M. Owen, Jr. Chief, Firearms Technology Branch |
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Posted: 3/4/2006 8:43:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: gsu2720]
[#37]
M4Madness, thanks for posting that letter. That is a ridiculous regulation.
 Oh well, I see my stamp collection growing in the future.
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USA
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Posted: 3/4/2006 11:49:22 PM EDT
[#38]
Gack. This is getting absurd.
I thought it was settled law (per the Thompson case) that so long as the parts could be assembled into a legal configuration, having the parts was legal. Simply having the possibility of assembling an illegal configuration was not enough, that combination of parts had to have no other option BUT an illegal configuration to be a problem. Simply having a sufficiently varied collection of legal guns & spare parts should not make one illegal. |
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Posted: 3/5/2006 1:02:50 AM EDT
[#39]
DO I need a stamp for each upper? I only have one lower at the moment but I am thinking about 2 sbr uppers.
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Posted: 3/5/2006 8:38:15 AM EDT
[#40]
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USA
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Posted: 3/5/2006 8:39:55 AM EDT
[#41]
You don't register AR uppers. You register the lower receiver.
Used to be you could regster the gun (lower) as having a variable barrel length. Now the process (not the law, maybe not even the regulations) has changed so they reject any application that has "variable" for barrel length. Perhaps they're now trying to use that to raise (bogus) legal questions about what gun that spare short upper will go on, since you declared your SBR as having a particular length. Gee, it would be nice to have some legal right to keep & bear arms without infringement... |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 3/6/2006 1:19:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Interested in getting an 11.5" upper and have a couple questions after reading this thread. First, does anyone know how hard it would be for me to become a significant enough part of my Father's existing corp so I could go the corp route without having to form a new separate corp? If that's not an option, how hard and time consuming is it to form a corporation and where would I start?
Second, I may eventually want to convert the same rifle to select fire. Is it possible to include that on the same form as the SBR or would I have to submit two sets of forms, one for the SBR and one for full auto capabilities and pay for two "stamps"? Thanks in advance for taking the time to help. |
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Posted: 3/6/2006 2:58:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: fq1234]
[#43]
The only legal way to convert your existing receiver to select fire would be to purchase a Registered Drop in Auto Sear or a Registered Lightning Link. Both will already be in the ATF registry and will require a $200 transfer fee to be transferred to you. You are probably looking at $7,000 - 11,000 depending on which registered part you find. You could also buy a Registered Machine Gun Receiver for $10,000 and up depending on the manufacturer. If you go this route, you will not need to register the receiver as a SBR unless you separated the Sear/Link from the rifle. When the Sear/Link is installed, the gun is a machinegun and can have any length barrel you want.
If you go the corporate route, the corporation will own the SBR, not you. You may possess it if you are a member/employee of the corporation. You would probably want to consult your Father and his lawyer before doing this. If it were me, I'd simply form my own corporation and keep things separate. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 3/6/2006 3:23:07 PM EDT
[#44]
I don't see me being able to afford full auto parts for a while then, so maybe just going the SBR route is best for me at this time. I honestly have no real world use for full auto anyway, so it would only really be a novelty thing for me to play with on rare occasions. The 11.5 SBR conversion is something I can use at work. They probably wouldn't even let me carry it if I went select fire. They're pretty much adamant about only swat having select fire capabilities. Unfortunatley, judging by the gun/shooting knowledge and decision making abilities of some of my counterparts I fully understand...
As for the corporate thing I may just go the full form, pics, fingerprint route. I have nothing to hide and no reasons to be denied as an individual. Just thought the corporate route might possibly speed things up a bit. I'm active LE in good standing and getting Chief LEO sign off should be no problem. I'm in no real hurry so I'll look into forming my own corp, but may end up just going the full individual route... And thanks for the reply. |
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Posted: 3/6/2006 6:27:35 PM EDT
[#45]
Sorry for the dumb questions. I only own one lower. one AR15. f I want to SBR it do I have to mention a specific length barrel on the application?
Like if I buy a 7.5" upper and put it on the form then decide to get a 14.5". Will the ATF raid my house and kill my beloved doggie because its longer than the 7.5"? |
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Posted: 3/6/2006 8:19:18 PM EDT
[#46]
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Posted: 3/6/2006 8:38:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: WildBoar]
[#47]
OK. but If I buy another upper with a different barrel length at a later time, can they pull a WACO on me? I am nervous as hell about thsi hwole thing but I really want a SBR with Supressor. |
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Posted: 3/6/2006 11:50:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: WildBoar]
[#49]
SO basically we have to pick a barrel lenght and stick with it? Do we have to write in and list the barrel lenght somewhere on the form? If they come to inspect for whatever reason and I have a 14.5" normally but they day they inspect I have a 7.5" on it. Can they technically screw me over becuase the paperwork says something else? I only have ONE lower . Period. NO more. Just one. I understand thet for each lower I own I will need to register it for each SBR upper. I uinderstand that but its a moot point for me at the moment.
Is there anywhere on the application a barrel lenght I have to write in and is it set in stone so to speak? Whatever I write in, I am stuck with? |
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Posted: 3/6/2006 11:55:00 PM EDT
[#50]
Not if the SBR is the only lower that you have. If it is, tell the ATF in a letter that you are changing the length of the barrel and/or the caliber.
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