Hey ARFCOM Hive Mind,

I'm going to put together a very small bare bones light weight survival tin or pouch for carry in my pants cargo pocket for rucks so that even if I get seperated from all my gear (pack, PLCE, chest rig, etc.) I'd still have something on me to help me have a chance at a survival.  Does anyone have something along those lines that they carry on their person and if so what are you carrying it in? Are you using a metal tin or a soft pouch? What kind of metal tin or soft pouch are you using?  

I bought a Magpul water proof daka pouch in a size small, but it's a bit bigger than I wanted for my survival items. I'm thinking about getting a tin so that I could boil water in it if worse came to worse, but my concern is having a hard metal tin container in my cargo pocket and then the discomfort of that if I hit the deck hard, but maybe I'm not justified in being concerned about that?  

At any rate, thanks for your thoughts and recommendations.

Solkoa or Hardcase produce aluminum boxes for this purpose.

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Here is my SOLKOA container and it holds just enough to get by.

Contents;

Photon Micro Light Red
Signal Mirror (really thin)
Flat whistle
Micro multi tool
Tiny roll of duct tape
Folded up LOKSAK
Cut down orange heatsheet blanket
Ferrocerium rod
Sparklite
P38 type can opener
Tinderquick tabs filling in voids in the box as many as I needed
Katadyn Micropur MP1 Water Purifier Tablets as many as I could fit
Safety Pins
Sewing needle
Micro button compass
Kevlar line
Brass wire
Scalpel Blade
Loperamide Hydrochloride 2mg for diarrhea control as many as I could get in there
Triple Antibiotic small one use pouch
Fresnel Lens
Small cut down sheet of rite in the rain paper
Micro pen with a tape cover on the tip (the kind you get out of a Swiss army knife)

Its sealed with a strip of electrical tape at the lid, two velcro straps around it and the riggers bands.

This kit assumes you are carrying some other basic items on your person like a small knife (there is a small blade on the micro tool in the kit but its small), maybe you have a bottle for water (although you could improvise with the bag in the kit), a tourniquet maybe and properly clothed for the environment.

This is definitely not intended for long term survival and is more of a fall back that you can quickly move from one article of clothing to another (convenience factor) to assist you if you lose a pack or other load bearing equipment with other survival items in those.

It has its advantages in being very lightweight, small and water resistant.

The hard case survival version is thinner material but about the same size, I have pretty much duplicate kit in one of those.

Go with the pouch you bought for the job and tell us what you think after testing. Having a bag a little larger than the actual kit gives you more room to carry things you may find, be they berries, bullets, firestarter, mushrooms, etc.

I'm currently testing out a smock based kit that simply has a survival kit spread out among my pockets.

i carried one in the army, a reasonably large metal tin with classified Content, Standard issue for everyone, vacuum sealed in one of those ribbed food bags.

For hiking/reserve/outdoor i carried a reasonably sized survival kit inside a m258 decon kit waterproof plastic pouch because i heard of those and i have seen also some marines carrying them. i assembled stuffed full of items, the water boiling/cooking part being a folded aluminum foil food tray (i have practiced with it and it worked, to practice those things i usually went for a walk with a pack on some circular hiking routes, then when i went back to the starting area near when i parked i tried to stay overnight using only the survival items, so if there was some kind of dangerous situation due to the lack of equipment or skills i just went back to the car.).  a few years later i went to a (don't laugh ) 36 hr. airsoft game, i packed all my items and my Alice belt kit and smock were full so there was no place for the survival kit that didn't fit trousers pockets, the only alternative was to hang it from a trousers belt loop with its spring clip. I said to myself "well, we are a small team and the playing field is just a few square kilometers of woodland, it's impossible i will need it, i'll leave it at home".  obviously i dind't need it, however a few days later i realized i failed the basic rule of consistently carrying the items you need (what Paul Harrell calls "program compliance"). When i was younger i got genuinely lost for a few hours (that's a story for another day) without any useful item and it was not a pleasant wxperience.
That say i completely reassessed my survival kit and the possible scenarios i could encounter and made a smaller one contained in one of those mini cigars metal boxes that is sized like a 10 pack of cigarettes, taped and closed with large heat shrink tube, with contents more inline with Andy Mcnab's survival kit or lofty wiseman's, that i am able to carry everytime. i have made the assessment however that i almost always keep the survival kit in a garment that has other things in it, i may lose the web gear, but if i lose the garment i will lose both the survival kit and whatever contingency gear i could have in there. If your assessment is different you surely could use a larger, better stocked one. Only remember to assemble it yourself for your needs and not rely on pre made ones and to always carry it.

Some days ago was my older daughter's birthday, knowing her adventouruos spirit her friends gifted her this survival kit that is contained in a pouch sized like a buttpack. mostly cheap items, however they may be usable. I said to her to check and try the content, assess her possible needs in case of some emergency and improve it before sticking it in the back of her car.

I dug out my old packing list for the smock to list whatever item our survival kit could be used in conjunction with. In no particular order and Just listed without listing content placement, many things vacuum sealed with food bags:

-poncho
-thermal undershirt, briefs and socks
-ifak (us type content, no minor injury items)
-soft bag with paracord and tape and some other things i cant Remember
-water filter
-pilot type flask with taped purification tabs
-24hr worth of datrex type Emergency bars
-boonie
-wool watch cap
-mosquito headnet
-weapon cleaning kit
-survival kit (Sorry, classified content (
-1 energy bar
-cut down signal panel
-TAMS with writing utensils and notepad
-map case with map
-compass
-SOP multiuse necklace (paracord loop with whistle,  keychain Light, lighter, spare batteries, button Compass, long enough that when worn around the neck items are at belly button height)
-up to two spare magazines

I like a small altoids tin with a small selection of important items.  I won't carry a hard container bigger than this.  Something like a mini-bic lighter, one of those folding razor blades, fresnel lens, some spyderwire fishing line, a couple pieces of tinder, etc.  Wrapped with paracord like in the following link, but I will first wrap some quality duct tape around the altoids tin before doing the paracord.

https://www.survivalresources.com/wrapping-a-survival-kit-tin.html

If I'm out doing anything serious, I usually have a swiss army knife and a compass and a bic lighter dummy corded to my pockets too.  Those 3 items will take you a long ways.

If you need more than that, you're better off distributing the items around your clothing.  Anything big enough to boil in is going to be to big to stash anywhere but in your dedicated gear.

You could also double-up altoids tins in 2 different places.  One with say basic firestarting stuff, another with a basic emergency medical stash (most importantly anti-diarrheal stuff)

For the smock like my cultured brother above, I have a couple of the small Maxpedition pocket organizers that fit perfect in the bottom smock pockets and BDU thigh pockets.  Those work great for organizing smaller items.  

You could do a quasi-drop leg (like, not a drop leg like the thigh holsters, but something that drops down just below the regular pouches) that holds a bigger emergency survival kit.  In my pack, I just have a little pouch with some extra misc. items if I don't have them elsewhere.

That's more like my smallest bushcraft pack. My smock is just a choice between an oversized BDU top and Some Slovenian surplus thing, Neither has that kind of room. Which smock are you using?

Survival kits are so varied. So varied, in fact, that how to carry it and pouch choices have to be exactly paired with the contents, or, as mentioned, your bag is larger. I have a few kits of varying sizes.

Choices for contents will be as different as favorite knives. Currently, the smock setup used with either, is a first aid kit for cuts with compress bandages, toilet paper, compass, wool gloves, a small survival kit with the regular shit in it, and an emergency blanket.

I'm getting away from the tactical a little, but I believe there's considerable overlap between bushcraft/fieldcraft/wilderness survival and military survival.

A rig like this is the step above that.

I use a SOL tin survival kit. I tried looking for the link, but apparently it’s not a regular item any longer. Its volume is probably three times that of an Altoids tin. It’s a bit longer and deeper.  It came with a pretty decent survival kit which I added a bit to.  Combined that with a few other things into a vacuum seal bag.  Easily fits in a cargo pants pocket or lower smock/BDU pocket.

This.  

And for the true light infantry / prepared citizen / etc. - even moreso, especially if you are rural.

But there is a distinct difference - the military survival is usually survival for a few days before you get rescued.  Same with true wilderness 'survival'.  

Bushcraft / long term survival is quite a bit difference in both mindset and materials you need.  Though there is definitely overlap here too.

I think the lightfighter concept interfaces directly with long term survival and bushcraft practices. The less resupply you need, the lighter the fighter you can be.

That was the army packing list and the smock was made by SOD, but as many others It was patterned after the KSK smock originally made for german special forces, that have 6 cargo pockets plus the poachers pocket and more .

By way of tins, my philosophy is to have certain sizes (3) for certain situations (IE: In the woods so it fits in a cargo pocket, Just in case so there's a little one in my shirt pocket, etc.).
The following from largest to smallest.
Bear with me, this will more than likely be more than one post.

LARGE TIN  20 OUNCE  7 1/8 x 4 5/8 x 2 ½ INCHES
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LARGE TIN CONTENTS
1- MYLAR BLANKET
2- ONE LITER WATER BLADDER
16- ONE LITER WATER PURIFIER TABLETS
1- WATER FILTER STRAW WITH PURIFIER DROPS
1-MAGNESIUM BLOCK WITH FERRO ROD & STRIKER
1-METAL PENCIL SHARPENER
1-EXPANDABLE BELLOWS
15-EXPANDABLE TOWELS
2-RAZOR
1-MAGNIFYING GLASS
1-MINI BIC LIGHTERS
12-WATERPROOF MATCHES & STRIKER
7-TINDER QUICK PIECES
15 FEET- PARA CORD
1-DECK OF KNOT TYING CARDS
1- PIECE CORDAGE WITH INTERNAL JUTE
2- ROLLS TRIP WIRE
1- 24 INCH WIRE SAW
1- WHISTLE
2- 4 HOUR BEESWAX CANDLE
1- 3 PACK STERI-STRIPS
2- ALCOHOL SWABS
1- P-38 CAN OPENER

MEDIUM TIN 5 ½ X 3 ¾ X 1 3/8
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MEDIUM TIN CONTENTS
1- MYLAR BLANKET
1- ONE LITER WATER BLADDER
4- ONE LITER WATER PURIFIER TABLETS
1-MAGNESIUM BLOCK WITH FERRO ROD & STRIKER
1-METAL PENCIL SHARPENER
1-EXPANDABLE BELLOWS
2-EXPANDABLE TOWELS
1-RAZOR
1-MAGNIFYING GLASS
1-MINI BIC LIGHTERS
6-WATERPROOF MATCHES & STRIKER
7-TINDER QUICK PIECES
1-DECK OF KNOT TYING CARDS
1- PIECE CORDAGE WITH INTERNAL JUTE
1- 24 INCH WIRE SAW
1- WHISTLE
1- 4 HOUR BEESWAX CANDLE
1- P-38 CAN OPENER

SMALL TIN     4-3/8 X 3-1/8 X 1-1/8
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SMALL TIN CONTENTS
1- MYLAR BLANKET
1- ONE LITER WATER BLADDER
4- ONE LITER WATER PURIFIER TABLETS
1-MAGNESIUM BLOCK WITH FERRO ROD & STRIKER
1-METAL PENCIL SHARPENER
1-EXPANDABLE BELLOWS
2-EXPANDABLE TOWELS
1-RAZOR
1-MAGNIFYING GLASS
2-MINI BIC LIGHTER
3-WATERPROOF MATCHES & STRIKER
5-TINDER QUICK PIECES
1-DECK OF KNOT TYING CARDS
1- PIECE CORDAGE WITH INTERNAL JUTE
2-RANGER BANDS
1- PIECE VINYL TAPE

I like the suggestions above. I also suggest to check Prepared pathfinder video on his military time survival kit (carried in a metal tin that originally housed the counterpart of a claymore clacker) as well as his Sas E&E pouch made following lofty wiseman's book advice and how they can work in conjunction.

I had a brief message exchange today with a former colleague, asking if he'd remember about some carried survival items and he told me if i'd forgot the lessons .

The lessons would be that survival is implemented from the whole uniform carried kit (it is very unlikely to be separated from your clothing while retaining the survival kit).

He also reminded me that survival means having or collecting water (i'd say that carrying water in a condom gets old very fast), having food, cold protection, fire, means of navigation, means of signaling, medical items. And also reminded me that in the survival tin there are the less useful items (except the classified ones) and that the commando saw and the fishing kit are unlikely to be ever used, well he didn't word it that way

The idea of surviving from a single little tin is cool, but if you choose that you either make compromises or you use a larger one.

That said, again i like the ones showed above by ParrisIsland1978. well thought and organized with a purpose.

I totally agree that the tins are not meant to be the do all end all, but are just one of many layers of the survival onion.

Note that certain absolute must haves are not in the tin. Compass, real knife, multi tool, etc. Those items are always on me, even when I’m in a suit and tie. Just like a pistol, back up pistol, and spare mags.

When in “the bush” the water containers, first aid, rations, long gun, poncho, cordage, etc., etc. are all brought.

I have a little similar set up I can through in a pocket if needed, and carry it on body when I'm in the woods: It's in a Tuff Possum pouch and I've owned a few of their things and honestly love them.

Mine has an altoids tin in it with some basic and back up EDC gear, plus extras. It lives in my work bag so I always have it nearby.
paracord wrapped up
2x ranger bands as tinder and hold the tin closed, plus hold a lighter and small folding knife to it. Those razors are all but useless for cutting anything besides yourself.
water purifying tablets
small flashlight
storm matches and striker
flint
tinder packets
compass
cash (tinder or most problems in the suburbs can be solved with money)
small med kit with immodium, allergy, pain relief stuff, nothing crazy.

I figure 2-3 ways to make a fire, navigate, cut something, etc should be enough considering this is already a back up to a back up to a back up.

This has turned into a really great thread.  Thanks everyone, excellent stuff from everyone here.

I may have to mod something I have to have more pockets. I love the concept. How does it react to full blown combat kit?

You can mod up BDU tops with extra pockets around the bottom.

And how they wear with full sized kit totally depends on the kit and how you set everything up.  You also don't want to load all the pockets up.  What all those pockets are great for is allowing you to spread your gear out over multiple pockets so you can actually access the pockets and pull stuff out without rooting around through a bunch of stuff in the pockets.  It also gives you options to put larger items like gloves, beanies, even rain jacket / liners / windjackets in the pockets of your smock.  A windjacket, rain liner, a pair of wool gloves, and a beanie in the pockets of your smock goes a LONG ways if you throw them all on in an emergency overnighter with no other gear.

Smocks tend to be much longer than even field jackets - which drops the bottom pockets down just below your belt kit if everything works out.

This is why smocks are great. Just wish I could find a version that works well in hot weather.

Eventually one of my projects is one specifically designed for hot weather.  Light, single layer, quick drying fabric and tons of venting.  

I'm a big smock nut, and have played around with most of the popular ones and took close looks at alot of the others.  Gives me lots of ideas.

Most of the item are flat and soft, with the survival tin carried in a shoulder pocket the only hard thing is the canteen that was carried in a smock kidney pouch. It was a Sop i dind't like, but no one forces you to do that, you can carry a simple soft container with a large enough hole to fill it like the soft CANTENE or the simple ones that are always given away as advertising. When later we were authorized to carry the smaller pilot flask it was better as it was thinner and in the same pouch you could fit a simple filter and the datrex bars. If you care you can use a surplus swiss m82 canteen that is slightly bigger and comes with a cup or a surplus old spanish canteen cup will fit that pilot flask.
As a civilian carrying a rigid canteen in the smock is something i did not do.
We were working out of chest rigs and no armor so the canteen was in a place of limited discomfort. If you carry a belt kit or a vest or armor the other soft items are not much of a hassle atleast in my experience.

These pictures (not mine, a friend of a friend) are a good sample. It was prior to a Nato exercise that involved a jump and airfield seizure, it gives a good general idea of the items carried. those are not my items but i can guess:

Smock has survival tin in shoulder pocket, you see the multiuse necklace in front, boonie and balaclava are probably carried in chest pockets. Bottom row you see canteen, utility/repairs bag with tape and cord and such, emergency food, ifak. Poncho and thermal clothing are palced flat in poacher pocket

Maps and TAMS in trousers pocket (many carried in the smock). i think pocket knife clipped to pocket was removed for jumping.

This is the rig


Ruck not pictured, i am pretty sure he also wore a standalone camelbak type bladder pack under the smock (because they get punctured, again as a civilian i never wore them under the smock again.)

I think these folks offer some items pertinent to this thread: CountyComm

Note that some containers offered by CountyComm are certified as "food grade" items.  

Altoid tins (and others) not so much.

Disclaimer: NO financial interest.

Thanks Joe, I appreciate the time you spend to explain things. I have a few ideas to work with.

This has been my thing for the past 20 years or so, and I'll give a little flowchart about how it evolved since I was a teenager in case you're interested

I started out with an SAS survival tin (based on the old tobacco tins which are larger than an altoids tin) and discovered the included components were atrocious because the company was understandably focused on reducing cost and increasing profit margin.   I definitely felt like I could do better than the included components and after seeing a bunch of commercial survival kit comparisons and ratings on the old equipped to survive / doug ritter's site I was inspired to slowly replace each component with something better.  Either higher quality, or smaller form factor so I could carry a wider variety of items.   In my mind, I wanted a stand alone tin that could get me through any situation even if I had nothing else.

Was pretty proud at how much I could cram into the little tin, but then I tried carrying it.  It was too big for a normal pocket, so it would have to be in a belt pouch (which I didn't like), a smock / jacket pocket or cargo pocket.  I don't wear jackets all the time and I discovered that in my cargo pocket the thing was heavy and bounced around my leg like a brick so it was uncomfortable. The appeal of tins are that you could theoretically boil small amounts of water in them, yet if I don't have it with me it doesn't do me any good.

I learned the hard way that, as with many things in life, people do not like to be inconvenienced and if it isn't compact, light and convenient you'll never have it if you need it. Besides, it was unrealistic that I'd have just my PSK tin and not my EDC at least.  After that, I decided the tin concept probably was better as a thought exercise than practical, and the sort of person who would spend the time to meticulously put together a tin is the sort of person who is least likely to ever need one in the first place.  Other form factors would be better, especially if you have a whole cargo pocket to work with, but before exploring such form factors I wanted to take a final whack at the tin approach.

I will copy and paste a couple of posts from another forum in case any of the information is useful.  

This first post was an exercise in a "cargo pocket" sized PSK, the rules were the kit had to fit into a single cargo pocket.

________________________________________________________________


As I post this, it should be noted that this is the culmination of a legacy mindset. I am drifting away from dedicated tins, and towards a distribution of items on my person, however for posterity I want to show what I've come up with as far as the classic tin oriented kits in case it helps others or gives them ideas.

Here we see the two tins that comprise the core of the kit (Steak and Shake gift card tins) with an altoids tin for size reference. They have the same length and width as the "SAS" type tins, but are shallower, with the same depth as an altoids tin:



While too small to include shelter, they do contain items that can be used to create shelter if in an environment that allows for that (more on that later) should the tins be all I have for whatever reason. Still, even a humble space blanket will do more to waterproof an improvised shelter than an hour of hard work piling debris at a fraction of the time and energy, so I decided to also include some sort of shelter on my person where possible.

In this case, an emergency hypothermia shelter, usually in the form of a Palmer Furnace if the temperatures get down to the point where hypothermia is a concern. Here in the southeast US, that's generally spring, fall and winter. Details of the contents will be presented below the introduction. In the summer, it's often too hot for me to get to sleep at night, and I am currently working on ideas for a summer based emergency shelter (focused more on bug and rain protection) that will fit into a cargo pocket. (Author's note: Since writing this, I have purchased a minimalist bug-bivy that fits into the same cargo pocket in lieu of the palmer furnace for the hot summer months here in the southeast. Vacuum sealed, it does not bulge the cargo pocket noticeably which was a goal of mine, but the bivy I chose (Lixada brand) is very small even for my 5'7 / 175 lbs frame, such that my arms push out the sides and can potentially be bitten through the netting, and therefore is only suitable for emergency use when the alternative is nothing)



Everything here fits in a single cargo pocket (actually with enough room to spare that I can include an Evernew / Platypus roll up 1L bottle, Silky pocketboy saw, and other bits and bobs that I will not include in the spirit of this exercise) so it should meet the criteria for the exercise, however admittedly I do not carry the items all in a single cargo pocket in practice because realistically that would be silly bulky and uncomfortable to walk with for any length of time. Instead, I distribute them among my pockets, but importantly, this means they are on my person rather than in my pack. That is why this approach is comprised of two smaller tins rather than a Triangia mess tin or something similar - as useful as the Triangia is for boiling water, it's so big it would have to be in a cargo pocket, jacket pocket or belt pouch and I know I'd never carry that in practice because I don't like how it feels against my leg, how blocky it is, or heavy it would be full of stuff. I prefer lower profile (even eschewing belt pouches which are admittedly practical) so the casual person would think nothing of my appearance out on a trail. I found even the ubiquitous "SAS" tin, which is only marginally thicker than these, is too thick to be practical for a front or back pocket, and can be stuffed with so many things that the weight of it bouncing on my leg in a cargo pocket is uncomfortable walking. That is not to disparage those who choose to take that approach, but the tradeoffs are not worth it for me and I am a firm believer that if it's not convenient, I will not carry it and so I will not have it should I need it.

The pair of tins on the other hand, will fit in ANY pocket I decide to put them in (front pocket, back, cargo, jacket, belt pouch, etc), helping distribute the weight and contents. My cargo pockets are relegated to carrying softer items like the aforementioned shelter, and an IFAK (not included as part of this exercise) as they are softer and lighter against my leg.

On philosophy of use, in practice I am moving towards less gear, and towards things that serve to complement my EDC rather than working as a stand alone kit that assumes nothing about whatever else I might be carrying like these, however I had envisioned these tins as part of something like a military pilots survival kit (hence the OD color) where this is all the user has and E&E may be a potential task. This is a reflection of my fondness for military survival kits when I was younger. In a civilian setting, orange would be a better color and staying put is often the better choice, and so some of the items (such as the wipes, body powder, moleskin, etc) may make less sense in that context. Trying to evade capture in a hypothetical scenario is hard enough without chafing and swamp butt ;) other things do make more sense in the civilian setting (tenacious repair tape, silnylon repair patch, etc), so forgive the slightly hodgepodge nature of the contents.

Onto the kits...

The tins are wrapped with several layers of electrical tape, but I am also experimenting with vacuum sealing them too, and it affords the opportunity to include a thin heatsheets type blanket to the exterior of one tin, and bug repellent wipes to the exterior of the other. Over the years I have experimented with including bug repellent wipes inside the tins (in it's own tiny ziplock or vacuum sealed bag) and found they have ALWAYS leaked and stunk up the inside of the tins, so I moved away from that approach. Unfortunately I don't have pictures of the bug repellent wipes but rest assured I consider them essential.

The first kit comes in at right around one pound and includes the primary components




I had a choice between a small fixed blade that compromised on either handle length, or blade length, and quickly discovered using those little knives to carve a handle out in the field was very time consuming and I wasn't a fan of that approach after my hand cramped up doing it. The SOG access card is unnecessarily "tactical" but lays very flat and immediately gives you a useful blade length, relatively comfortable handle, reliable axis like lockup, and in testing performed every bit as well as the little fixed blade and held an edge better (though they are in two completely price categories so it's a bit of an unfair comparison). One thing I did decide after experimenting is that if I ever did use a small knife with the intent to fashion a handle in the field, I would cheat and bring along a couple of wood screws, carve a flat into a piece of wood and just screw that bad boy down with a couple of the tiny wood screws, much faster and easier than trying to create a notch and end up with a wobbly lash.

I did break the tip on my test article while trying to explore it's limits, but that hardness that was beneficial for edge retention has it's tradeoffs, which is to be expected. Understanding it's limits, I was satisfied overall and prefer it to the classic lockback style knives or small folding razors you sometimes see in military survival kits.




The multi tool was selected simply because it was flat, can easily grip the tin for use over a fire for boiling water and un-hook myself if I should find myself in an unfortunate situation like Carleigh in Alone Season 5! It can also be used with the tiny hex bit to tighten up the knife should it loosen up during use, and can be used to tighten the small flathead wood screws.

The Corona carbide knife sharpener is the best ferro rod striker I've tried, and can touch up a blade in the field. The hole aligns well with either of the two saw blades and makes a pretty comfortable handle that's much faster than having to fashion one out of wood. The wing nut, aligned properly, acts as a thumb rest. The leatherman saw is better for notching, while the thinner sierra saw is better for finer and deeper cuts if trying to shape wood for a specific purpose.



If anyone has ever used a pocket chainsaw, they know they aren't great, but they are light years better than the wire saws that are sometimes included in these sorts of kits, and lay flat coiled in the bottom of the tin. I got rid of the bulky handles and used Lash-It larksheaded through the end holes so I can use wooden toggles for handles. I was worried that they would abrade but after messing around with it they seem to hold up fine and I have plenty more if I do discover any issues. In the future I want to try and experiment with making a bucksaw out of this to see if that makes life easier.



The second tin includes some supplementary items, to address minor first aid, hygiene, bug repellent, repair, and so on




The Palmer Furnace as a hypothermia shelter has been discussed here many times and I certainly didn't come up with it, but in my testing it performed well enough to be included. For those who haven't seen the other threads, you create your own microclimate by sitting cross legged, wrapping yourself in a poncho or blanket, lean against a tree, your pack or something else, and burning a candle between your legs. It's not particularly comfortable sitting there for hours, and you won't be getting any sleep but it will get you through the night alive in a pinch. In my case, two wicks from a home made beeswax candle was able to get the interior temperature up to the mid 80s when it was just above 32 outside (no wind, dry clothes), I have not tested it yet post cold water immersion but other members here have. The sitting pad is uninsulated so not ideal, but it stores very compact, can help comfort, and the rubber bands are used to keep the arm holes of the SOL poncho closed.




If you wrap the wick beforehand with some fluffed up tinder quik, you can get it going in the cold even with a spark.



_______________________________________________




For completeness, I'll go into the IFAK mentioned above that rides in my other cargo pocket as it's one component of a comprehensive approach to distribute critical items on my person as part of the commonly used layered approach in which we survive out of our pockets.  I don't mind a redundant IFAK in a go-bag but I firmly believe it belongs on your person along with your EDC, emergency shelter and other misc survival gear if you're out and about.  If you're not going out into the wild, it's acceptable to have the survival components nearby and easily accessible.  The booboo kit shown is not normally on my person, but in my bag.





The IFAK is DIY, flat packed and vacuum sealed with a subtle curve so it can fit inside any cargo pocket without sticking out noticeably. Alternatively, it will fit in any typical backpack pocket, fanny pack, chest pack, or a small sling bag. If I'm wearing slacks with no cargo pocket, I have a similar setup inside an ankle rig. It's pretty basic, includes gloves (I also EDC a separate set of gloves in my back pocket), tourniquet, hemostatic gauze, small field dressing and chest seals. Didn't include any airways in this one.

The booboo kit is separate and likewise small enough to slip in a back pocket or any other handy spot. The flat spray bottle of ethyl alcohol is to deactivate various nasties in any fluids I may have gotten on me or my clothes or equipment (does not work against all threats, but a wide variety of them). Taking inspiration from Rock6's excellent setup he showed in another forum I've added a pair of Victorinox swisscard scissors and AllaQuix hemostatic gauze into the booboo kit.

I usually have the little travel sized containers of the basic analgesics nearby (tylenol, advil, etc) as well as prescription meds (antibiotics) to bring when appropriate, so I didn't include those here but I could always stuff a couple of the single dose packets of the analgesics inside if I felt the need. I don't EDC a rescue hook or shears but I do have them in my first responder bag, which also includes other basics (airways, eye wash / wound wash, wraps, stuff for taking vitals, electrolytes, ice packs, headlamp, sharpie, second IFAK and boobookit, et al)
Misc Musings...


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Today I generally shy away from the tins. I do wear a Wazoo cache belt now in lieu of tins, though part of it has to remain empty for holster clip purposes. Primarily it carries whirl pak bags and purification tablets, a small firestarter and tinder as part of the PACE approach for fire, small compass, MicroSD to USB adapter and 1TB microSD card with an encrypted backup of all my important files, and more.

I still prefer a layered approach as is common, and now I'll generally just plus up my EDC if I know I'm going out in a situation in which I might need to (ie, vacuum sealed palmer furnace or bug bivy in one cargo pocket, IFAK in the other, wazoo cache belt, plus normal EDC), but I also generally keep a small fanny pack (ie, small enough that it could be stuffed into a cargo pocket to give an idea) full of the essentials that serves as a sub-load organizer that I can throw in an EDC / Travel / Weekender bag that may not be outdoor oriented, such that I can always take it out and put it on if I need to, but while it's in the bag the fanny pack just acts like an organizer pouch.

As mentioned earlier, those who have the forethought to prepare themselves thoughtfully prior to setting out (building a kit, learning how to use it, etc) are the ones who are least likely to find themselves in a situation in which they need "survival" equipment, but are also the most likely to have it should they need it. An exception here is ultralight hikers, who typically are thoughtful enough to use other best practices (letting friends know where they're going, checking the weather, hiking in an area where they may encounter others should an emergency arise, etc) who specifically choose not to carry redundant emergency equipment after their risk assessment.

Those who aren't thoughtful or are inexperienced could benefit from survival equipment, but are less likely to take it with them when they should (so being small and unobtrusive helps), and are also less likely to know how to utilize it effectively (keep the instructions in there!)

As others have mentioned in the thread, there can be considerable overlap with regards to philosophy of use between survival kits, daypacks, bug out bags, go bags, get home bags, et al. Your "survival kit" might be a whole backpack full of stuff, or it might be what you can stuff in a cargo pocket, but one key delineation conceptually is accessibility. Most people who are venturing outdoors already carry routinely used items that would be found in a "survival kit" in their normal loadout, like bug spray and so on. Those items will be used, so they need to be easily accessible, while survival kit items are unlikely to be needed under normal circumstances, and so some ease of access may be sacrificed for compactness. As some philosophies of use regarding survival kits involve duplication / overlap of normally carried items, they might be unattractive to some crowds (ultralight hikers, etc).  

Still, there are niche instances in which a separate survival kit from your normal gear would potentially be a good idea -- particularly in cases where you

1. May be separated from your main bag routinely (Pilots and Aircrew, Paramotorists, Kayakers and Boaters, Tubers, rough terrain hiking)

2. Are doing something in which you don't expect you'd be out long enough to carry a main bag ("Just a short dayhike" / trip from base camp / hunting / walkabout / guided tours in the wilderness / tubing down a river in swim shorts, etc). Here, the survival kit becomes the "main" kit.

3. Are reliant on transportation because they're going distances too far to walk practically (Long Hunters, multi-day expeditions on horseback, guided tours in the wilderness, etc)

4. Are performing tasks in which your main gear is typically dominated by mission oriented equipment , and normally have support, but may be cut off from that support (Smoke jumpers and wildland firefighters, Search and Rescue personnel, Soldiers, Prepared Citizens)

5. Travelers who routinely carry inadequate EDC or other gear -- inexperienced / casual outdoorsmen, ultralight hikers who don't do an adequate risk assessment or encounter unexpected situations despite proper risk assessment, however these type of people are unlikely to think to bring an emergency kit or rationalize not needing one.

A copy and pasted update regarding the palmer furnace mentioned in the last post...


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For those who use the SOL ponchos as the basis for a palmer furnace, I was able to find a larger SOL heatsheets like poncho that should allow larger people to use the system (I'm 5'7 / 175 lbs and the original SOL poncho was only just large enough in my experiment), and best of all it's about half the price so it's pretty affordable to use one to practice with. Both ponchos offer better tear resistance than mylar (think stretching a trash bag), with the exception of the armpit seam; pull it apart and it will run down the seam. Though, if that happens you're no worse off than you would have been using an emergency blanket. Of course, you could use all sorts of things as a basis for a palmer furnace, from macgyvering a large contractor bag with a face hole torn out of it, a regular military poncho, emergency blanket, etc. but I wanted something that would fit in a cargo pocket ready to go without being bulky or even noticeable, with the mentality that if it isn't light and compact you won't have it when you need it.


This picture makes the new poncho look bigger, but that's because of how it comes packed (newer poncho is flat packed here, while the SOL poncho is doubled over). Both can be compressed down further, especially if vacuum sealed.



Length Difference:




For those who haven't seen the older thread, this was used as a basis for a hypothermia shelter that fits into a cargo pocket. The poncho has advantages over a more conventional emergency blanket, being easier to don and stay in place hands free, especially in wind




The rubber bands keep the arm holes closed for you when you tuck your arms inside.



It's a good idea to toss some tinder around your wick so you can light the system with a spark as well as a flame, and an extra flame source inside (I just tossed some matches in mine) so that it remains dry even if you're immersed in water.







No wind in my original test run (thankfully) and dry clothes. I haven't done a cold water immersion test yet, but for this test the outside was right around 32f and drizzling so definitely hypothermia territory had I been out there with just the clothes on my back, inside with two wicks burning got up to mid 80s. Only cold spots are what was pressed up against the mylar like poncho and my toes which was to be expected, and only complaint was I wish the SOL poncho was longer, and sitting in the same position for that long kinda sucked, but I knew that going into it. I used a DIY beeswax candle, so I don't recall the details of the wicks used. The tin is altoids tin sized, but no hinges (so you can add more beeswax for longer burn time) but there are commercial beeswax candles available.

I've since added some toe warmers and a xerovest inflatable mylar vest. The xerovest is probably not necessary but it packs down super flat (on par with a lot of the mylar blankets) and the inflated cells provide a little trapped air insulation and help prevent direct contact with the mylar where you can get cold spots due to conduction. It isn't cheap though ($18 for a disposable item!!! If you buy two, one to practice with, that's silly expensive) and it runs quite small. The closure is a one-time use adhesive strip, and at 5'7" I can barely get it closed when inflated significantly -- so if you wear anything bigger than a medium T-Shirt, forget about trying to close it. Might be better just to leave it open anyway since it's easier to stay safe with a flame between your legs. I think the original intent was to be used under an insulative layer like a jacket in which case you're definitely not going to be able to inflate it fully unless your jacket is oversized. This product has a lot of potential though, I just wish this company made larger versions that can be reused, it really wouldn't be that difficult. The left and right halves are inflated independently.



This guy came up with a clever way of making a valve that will deflate and reinflate the halves, so the test and evaluation one can be reused. I didn't unpack the one I have for use because I'd never be able to pack it down that small.



It all slips into a cargo pocket, thanks to the vacuum seal (I sealed the Xerovest separately and just slide the toe warmers in there), but would just as easily slide into a a slip pocket of a pack or something.


If a palmer furnace is something you are planning on integrating into your system, I highly recommend you buy two sets so you can practice with one and gain some insight as to its capabilities and limitations.  You don't want your first experience with it to be when you actually need it in a life threatening situation.


Hope it gives some ideas!

See my #24 post for "Food Grade" tins of various sizes.

County COMM often offers "sales" on items and discounts (and a discount "loyalty" program) for signing-up to their incessant e-mails.  

Suggest making use of their food-grade metal survival kit container is wise, both in carriage and possibly cooking.  Multi-use is often desirable.

Disclaimer: NO financial interest.

Now, while I'm OK with what County Comm offers, I'd appreciate links to similar vendors/mfrs.

Great stuff.

@Burncycle

Outstanding info. Thanks for taking the time to type that up and for sharing your insight.

Browsing an App where people sell their old stuff i bought this set of tins from a belgian guy for a whopping 12€ shipped.

The mess tin Is an esee tin, the One marked 2 i Guess it's BCB as It should be the Golden One which Is patterned After the ww2 tea ration tin. I am shamed, but the altoids tin Is my First as they are not sold in Italy (has been lunedì with Red reflective tape), the ABL (belgian army) marked One Is thick gage steel and looks like a miniature of their old ration tin (maybe Emergency ration?), the colored One Is a Tampax box , the tiny ones has Feu (Fire) written.
I was curious about the esee One

Because It Is supposed to be patterned After the British mess tin. If you are accustomed to Lofty Wiseman's SAS escape pouch you know that he carried and altoids tin survival kit plus a survival kit in a belt pouch sized like the green One on the left. One of the mess tins Is carried as It does it's primary work plus It offers protection to the content.
Other things in picture for comparison: altoids tin, US m258a1 decontamination kit case that was a popular container (i carried It too) and the One with red shrink wrap Is what i carry now (basic non perishable things in a cigarillos metal tin). As i said i shifted from the m258a1 to that smaller tin as once i left It home because i had no Place in my coat.

The two sizes of British tins vs. The esee One. The esee has a simple lid without basket.

Good thing Is that the smaller esee fits in a British pouch along with a swiss issue canteen which Is around 25 fl.oz., so you could make a survival pouch with a canteen. The swiss One Is High, the pouch needs a Little effort to be closed, a pilot flask definitely world fit Better and with modern materials you could fit the rest of the kit inside the smaller esee tin



Lofty Wiseman's book can be found here.  Pages 30 and 34 talks about those survival kits.

I like the look of the British tins.

@wsix
Pricey but ultra lightweight, watertight, and kind of British like.
Mine is considered luxury gear and goes in my ruck.
https://www.valtcan.com/products/valtcan-titanium-camping-lunch-bento-box-1200ml-with-airtight-lid-seal-and-cover-foldable-handle-for-heating-on-fire-camp-backpacking-container-40-oz-ultralight-254g?utm_campaign=gs-2019-06-21&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwurS3BhCGARIsADdUH52Ofm_xwf7FXhsktRur8UeCWn5OnrVKbNfqF7T9dlrM5k3iCzcwM-gaAl2jEALw_wcB

That is nice. Maybe Santa will hook me up.



ETA- a couple questions. Do you store food in that or fire starter or what? I've never cooked with Ti, so I'm curious as to how bad food sticks to it, how hard it is to clean, and does it impart or hold any flavors?

I recall cooking an omelette with onions in an aluminum copy of the old GI mess kit and the eggs stuck badly and even after I got it clean it smelt of onions. I've since tossed it.

I keep a rag and a pouch of freeze dried food in it.
It’s never had anything cooked in it because I am too lazy to have to clean it.🤣
I pour the hot water right into the food pouch.

I didn't know Marine's ate off clean dishes. Wild.

A pack of Marlborough's with a lighter, a condom and a hundo in the cellophane.
That would cover any situation in every country, environment, ethnicity and race on the planet.
Bribery, arson, cash and sex.

A hundo won't buy anything, anywhere. That's dinner at a restaurant.

It's a fun joke though.

Hahahaha
We had C-rats back then.
You would eat the cold item first,
make a little stove using your John Wayne from the can it came in, and cook the main item in it’s can, eat it and then use that can for an ashtray for the after meal cigarettes that were in the ration.
Easy peasy.

Other countries has those as well (pictured set are belgian). Aluminium or steel exist, more refined civilian ones too.

This design was the thing that prompted the brits to use the webbing pouches since 1958 as a shelf for the pack.

This guy, ex British soldier that moves to the US has some insight.

I'm kinda liking the "rectangular" Brit-style 2-piece mess kit for being able to stow lots of stuff within it and all of it inside a suitable pouch, possibly along with other items.  Makes for efficient use of space, and possibly a useful alternative to other milsurp cook sets.

Lotsa surplus items (from various countries) available from UK/Europe, with commensurate horrid shipping prices.

Would be interested in RKIs commenting on various size Brit (or other, very similar) "rectangular" mess kits, hopefully supplying outside dimensions and proper nomenclature/country of origin which would aid in searching.  Would also appreciate comments from users concerning Stainless steel vice aluminum construction.  Can see pros and cons to both types of metals.

Links to trusted US vendors (or other vendors who do not charge exorbitant shipping prices) would be appreciated.

It might be possible for a user to make aluminum lids for such rectangular cook set items.  Vid on YouTube about how to do it HERE Such DIY lids can also be made for many other items, including GI canteen cups and loads of Euro cook sets.   Some kits may allow/require 2 different sized lids, and often such lids "nest" within themselves, thus requiring only a bit more room inside the pouch.

I have come to "appreciate" lids on cooking/heating vessels for a number of reasons.  YMMV.

I like the concept of “Altoids” type survival tins and I think they’re a great training item. That said, the best survival kit is the one on your “first line” gear as part of your EDC. I’ve found the tins are a great concept in theory, but shitty in practice. The whole “container for boiling” is overrated. I would rather have a good collapsible container, coffee filters, and purification tablets, as that actually works, it’s efficient and fast to get potable water you can transport.

A small pouch, fanny pack, or even HPG Kit Bag provides a lot more “E&E Survival Kit” than a tin and they can integrate well with your combat kit or ruck.

First is your line-one/EDC kit:



You can then augment with a small fanny pack/pouch to cover some of your other essentials:












Just a little perspective I’ve learned over the years.

ROCK6