So someone in the Velocity Jungle Rig thread suggested we start a dedicated thread to talk about sustainment gear, related to the concept of the 'light fighter'.  Mostly foot infantry, mostly light infantry, sometimes fighting with limited support / resupply, etc. while still capable of being mobile.  (there is more to it than that, but you get the basic idea)

He suggested the following as topics to start with:  'Sustainment webbing, rucks, water, sleep system, signaling/comms, navigation……. Team/leadership level items that support some of those tasks.'

Basically anything gear related, especially personal gear each guy carried, that will help him beyond his basic fighting load.  And how it ties into and is incorporated with your preferred choice of load bearing equipment, etc.

So I started a thread.  Looking at you @shootindave

EDIT:  Below I will be adding links to threads that are offshoots to this thread that have specific information.  Or threads or webpages with specific information in general.

What would a civilian version of a "TAMs" look like

This is my setup for "platoon leader" position in Canadian Forces. Unit sop requires 4x mag, 2x frag, 2x smoke, admin pouch, radio, canteen and med. This covers it all. Tactical tailor mav gets worn over issued soft armour and plates.
Added a dump pouch and the knife that goes on my belt plus pistol and 2x mags. Fanny pack for misc e&e + snacks.

Small packs used to carry meal, rain gear, puffy sweater, socks, poncho + ammo and mission gear. Basically for shorter patrols.

Rucksack adds more sustainment: shelter, sleep kit, clothes, etc inside. Outside pouches have access to food, ammo, and mission gear. Plus defensive tools.

Ahhhh, the MAV.  I still rock those for my full sized chest rig.

There exists more than one lightfighter concept.
Originally it was a focus on field expedient solutions to, literally, lighten the load of the Infantryman based on "the more you know, the less you have to carry" mindset. I supported this concept, but the brass never allow for weight reduction. If you can show a gear weight reduction, the brass just see that as an opportunity to make you carry more shit.

Is that how you're using the term lightfighter?

Yea, that's the original definition.  I fully support this definition.  Specifically, this thread was about lightly or unsupported infantry type stuff, ie, you gotta carry everything you have, maybe get resupplied.  But your definition factors directly into this stuff too, because being able to carry enough gear to self-support yourself in the field, without access to motorized vehicles all the time, would require lightening your load.

You definition runs back decades, and alot of the younger guys might not have even heard it used that way.  So yea, incorporate that definition in with this for sure.  

Plan for a drone and an e-bike.

Saddle bags and rifle scabbard?

OST to get ideas on if I should attempt to update my gear or just go back to rocking an ALICE set up

E-bike for sure.  With a way to charge them in the field.  Even a single light dirtbike style E-bike used for re-supply for a squad would be a game changer, allowing a squad to be far more mobile and in the field away from roads far longer.

Drones, yes.  But if you carefully pay attention to Ukraine, the expected lifespan for an observation drone over the battlefield is being measured in minutes.  Most don't get more than 1 or 2 flights.  You might be better off investing in other force multipliers first.

This man knows how to party.

There's nothing wrong with ALICE gear.  

But it is NOT optimal.  Seriously, the newer British style stuff rides SIGNIFICANTLY better than ALICE gear.  

I'm tempted to donate one of my budget belt kit sets to be a loaner set to let people borrow it to try out the newer style kit.  Borrow it for a couple months and see how they like it.  Then they can mail it to the next guy or buy it from my on the cheap if they like it enough.  There's enough people on here that want to try the new style belt kit but are hesitant to drop $400+ on a set that it might be worth doing I think.

Very cool. Hopefully some good learning comes from this.

I have some things in the works I will try to document, and share in the coming weeks.

Integrating layers of kit is where it gets really interesting, imo.

Battle belt and plate carrier goes pretty easy, so long as you keep the belt pouches relatively low, and PC pouches from hanging over.  Adding a large pack may necessitate keeping the rear of the PC and belt a bit more slick.

Still tinkering with British style belt kit, armor, and packs.

This is one of the important things about hashing out all of this.  It will help a person new into gear transition from  'I bought a gun and a chest rig!'  to a fully integrated system that works well together.

That’s one of my hang ups on a chest rig.

With an Alice style belt kit, I can carry enough to not only fight, but sustain myself for 24 hours+. It seems to me that with most chest rigs, it’s purely a fighting load out and you need to add a backpack of some sort for the sustainment gear.

On the other side, chest rigs interface a lot better with modern packs with a good belt to put most of the weight on your hips.

I Am all for belt kits, but for intellectual honestly a Blackhawk commando, tag rifleman, arktis or surplus British ones offer almost the same capacity as a standard British belt kit or an alice kit (4 Mag pouches, no buttpack).

The way i see light fighter Is this: you Walk near a line, if you cross It on the other side there are frostbite, dehydration, Hunger. The Gear you carry should let you Walk as near the line as possible without crossing It. Then you are carrying a light load.

In my humble opinion, the way the GWOT was fought has heavily distorted the concept of what a fighting load is.

People tell me why they have rifles and gear, but the “why” does not match up with the “what” they have.

We are light fighters because thats all we can be. If you are a rifleman, have the rifleman’s gear that actually applies to who you are…….. not the gear of an assaulter with 10 billion dollars of support to your rear.

I Am not sure you can really blame the soldiers that fought there using what was Better suited to that kind of fight. And believe me that in the small insignificant microcosm that Is the soldiers Life It took a Little bit of time to adapt to It.

I think there are two errors that are made:
-forcing the same kind of training,sop and Gear in this case to a different kind of fighting (even if no One Is clairvoyant and the next war Will as usual be different than everyone thought or trained for)
-for civilians, trying to mimick what soldiers do/look, One should decide for his needs. Unluckily to.do that you should have ample knowledge about many subjects that not everyone has. When i Need car or General repair advice i ask my brother, when i Need cooking tips i ask my mother, when i need sewing suggestions my aunt is the go-to

Yeah, I agree.

I should have been more specific. I was eluding to your last point, civilians attempting to apply gear selection based upon fighting logistics that do not apply and will not be all that helpful/useful should their “why” they need the gear come about. Because you might try trading your rifle for a bottle of water by day two of the troubles without sustainment ability.

Yea, I have an oldschool Blackhawk Commando, you can definitely stuff a bunch in there.  Same with something like an TT MAV, set up the right way.

However, you will be hard pressed to carry as much as you can with a well set up belt kit with a buttpack and 2 water bottle pouches, especially once you add a poncho roll on top of that.

But they are DEFINITELY pros and cons - especially when dealing with vehicles or potentially full on urban combat (where belt kit is a bit bulky, dealing with doorways and stuff all the time)

I'm a big fan of belt kit, but I've got all the chest rigs and plate carriers too.  Both micro rigs and full sized 'go to war' chest rigs.  But I'm pretty rural, and do NOT intend to go anywhere near urban areas.  You live in an urban area, and intend to stay there if things fall apart (dumb), then sure, belt kit might not be your best option.  Build out a chest rig setup with basic sustainment and plan on running a small pack.

Let me throw something else into the mix re: chest rigs vs belt kits.

When we made the transition from the Alice to the LBV’s, I quickly went back to Alice when I could, simply from a heat perspective. Even the vented mesh LBV was substantially hotter when rucking, which is a core component of being a lightfighter.

Agreed.




I think we are attempting to work out alot of those issues of lack of knowledge on the many subjects that go into things in this thread.  There is alot of overlap, as some of the basics - water for instance, is pretty universal.  You need it.  Now how much you need, how you carry it, procure it, purify it, etc. - there are nuances and pros and cons to each variation.  And those choices are good to have, as what I do up here in the Appalachian mountains will be different than the dude in Arizona or the guy romping the winter landscape of Idaho, etc.  

But there are universals that people need to think about - and ALOT of civilians especially have zero idea about some of these things.  I have friends who have a chest rig with 3 mags and a belt setup with a pistol, 2 mags, 1 rifle mag, and an IFAK.  Cool.  I have that setup.  But that's his  'the Chinese Paratroopers are dropping, it's time to wolverine' setup.  His support gear is a civilian backpack that has a camelback, a 55F rated summer sleeping bag, small tent, cook pot, and a water purification pump.  Cool, he's way ahead of others.  But that's his ENTIRE support gear setup.  He's used it a couple times with short backpacking trips with me - again, way ahead of most people.  But, again.  That ain't going to cut it in the winter, nor long-term.  And he thinks he is going to be running a chest rig setup in the SE summer heat all the time without a way to carry water other than in his ruck.  With only 4 rifle magazines.  

And he's ahead of the game compared to most civilians.  He's ex-military, GWOT era.  Most of his friends - military and civilian - are of similar mindset with gear, and most are far worse off with support and sustainment gear.  Most of them don't even own a sleeping bag.  None have a way to purify water, other than one has a lifestraw.  Most of them own a single pair of boots and just replace them when worn out.  Most of their winter gear is heavily urban civilian oriented, or heavy carhartt style gear.  A couple of them don't even have a rain jacket.

This is one of the reasons I've been harping on sustainment gear so much - I've been looking around at my friends and their friends, and there is a huge lack of both knowledge - and for those with knowledge, actually fleshing out a personal sustainment and support load, much less thinking about long-term logistics.  And I'm talking about for people who really do think that there are hard times coming.  All the military guys have been spoiled by the GWOT era, living on FOBs and running vehicle born ops, and the civilians have no idea.  The best equipped for support gear out there are actually the civilians I know who are big into backpacking and / or homesteading.  At least they have their personal gear worked out.

Anyways.  It's a bit of a rant, but this is something that needs to be discussed, and good knowledge passed on to whoever needs it.  Both generalities and specifics.  

And this doesn't need to be limited to civilians use either - I fully want this to be good knowledge passed onto the next generation of military dudes who might end up having to fight on foot in a big war.  There's ALOT of knowledge to be passed on about the 'art of the footsoldier' by these older dudes who were doing it in the 80's and such.  The kind of institutional knowledge that doesn't exist anymore in alot of the military units.  I don't want American troops going into a big war unprepared.  'MURICA! and all that.

This is one of the reasons I'm circling back to belt kit.  I started with ALICE gear as a teenager, LARPing in the woods.  Went to chest rigs in my early 20's.  Now I'm in my 40's, and I don't recover from overheating as quickly, I'm circling back to belt kit.  And I don't want to break out my old ALICE gear, because the new stuff is significantly better.  

I live in the mountains, and while the heat usually isn't bad, I can go 5 miles away and I'm off the mountain and suddenly, I'm in the heat and humidity of the SE - in the 90's with 90% humidity in the summer.  No thank you Mr. Chest Rig, I'd rather not be a heat casualty.  

Plus I have to deal with the variable weather in the mountains - even in July, it dips down into the lower 60's at night.  It's always damp.  We have heavy winds - one of the record land wind speeds was recorded a few miles away, over 190mph.  The unofficial record was recorded there too, gusts over 230mph.  and it can get down into the -20's and -30's in the winter sometimes.  I've seen it go from the mid 70's to snowing in 12 hours before.  As a civilian without the huge logistics chain of the military, if I'm forced to be out running from Chinese Paratroopers, I want to at least keep basic shelter and insulation + a days food on me at all times.  Get stuck out overnight on the wrong night without that stuff, you are going to be in trouble.

Plus overheating and sweating it up while wearing a plate carrier and chest rig in the winter is almost as bad as dealing with the humid SE summer heat.

I'm thinking of picking up a Defense Mechanisms Load Carrying Platform.

This is a bit more beefy than a chest rig and I think would fall into a similar category as the old LBE/LBV.  I like that it can take a hybrid structured cummerbund that is interchangable with a plate carrier and that it can accept placards that are interchangable with a plate carrier.  Essentially, it provide a platform very similar to a plate carrier with less weight and bulk. You could make a long movement to your ORP carying the front and rear plate bag inside a ruck then switch the LCP's cummerbund and placard from the LCP platform to the Plate Bags for a fully good to go plate carrier.  That's my thinking anyways.

This issue with belt kit is that it does not play well with civilian vehicles.  Getting and out of a car and sitting for any period of time is going to suck in most belt kit.  I find that chest rigs are superior to belt kit in this regard.

That's very different than an LBE / LBV.  It's basically a front plate carrier without a plate, or a chest rig designed to run placards.  You might as well just run a chest rig.

If you're wanting to run a heavy chestrig, look at something like this.

https://www.optactical.com/plpejwchrig.html

Well, you can run a cummerbund on it, which I like for swapping the cummerbund and placard over to a plate carrier while maintaining essentially the same positions for all kit.

So on the topic of sustainment, light rifleman movements, or even just occupying a position while waiting on relief, what are some thoughts on a loadout and webbing for a kit to last 48, 72, 96 hours?

What are the options and tools that make sense in the absence of a 60L plus ruck?  Assume there's no cases of water being dropped off, summer or winter weather, pick one, and I guess I'm less interested in the martial portion of the loadout.  Martial gear is pretty well defined at this point.

I am not seeing a reason to ride in a car up to the point you need all your gear on to begin with. Why would I want to sit in a civilian vehicle for long periods of time in a contested area?

This is going to go more into the weeds on patrol bases, the fact that you are with like 12 other people…… what an actual patrol looks like and what you are looking to do. What the tempo of movement looks like…… a lot of stuff.

There are a few different resources to do training for these things so that a perspective can be gained.

Eta;

Thought experiment:

You and 12 other guys need to move 10 miles with all of your gear to gain a visual of a major transportation cross roads. You will setup a patrol base in the woods, about a mile away from the main objective, with multiple major terrain features between you.

For the next 7 days you go out in 4 man teams, for 24 hours to conduct surveillance of the roadway, the relieving 4 man squad has to do a night time link up with the squad they are relieving each night.

Back at the patrol base people are doing security, handling water, getting rest or whatever else needs to happen.

…………..

Doing scenario based training helps gain some perspective on gear, depending on what types of training people do.

IMO, you’re not going to be able to carry enough for much more than 24 hours without adding a pack of some sort. The amount of water and food alone will necessitate it.

You can mitigate the amount of water you need by carrying food that doesn’t need water to cook (think MRE’s) or cut the food weight with dehydrated stuff like Mountain House but now you need that much more water.

Backpackers will just depend on finding and filtering water whenever possible, but in a non permissive environment water sources will be watched.

You figure you've got time to travel in a vehicle, stop, and then put on your stuff?

The USA is it's highway system and roads, we're probably the most vehicle centric society on earth and so it would stand to reason that travel by car might be a necessity at some point or another.

Oh, and I wouldn't want to sit, stand, walk, run or even enter into a contested area if I could avoid it.

The problem is that the enemy doesn't always do you the favor of staying in place and so contested areas can change up quick.

This is about along the lines of what I'm thinking, maybe cut the 12 men to 6.  What kind of load has been found to be optimal for those 24-48 hours on observation?




Sorry, assume a smaller pack, like your standard assault pack to what's normally marketed as a three day pack.  Additionally, and maybe obviously, skip the notion of cooking, boiling water, anything that breaks the security of a cold camp.

Most people have never had to carry enough food and water for multiple days.  Or ways of obtaining more clean drinking water.

I generally see fighting gear needing at least 2 quarts of emergency water (more if in a really dry area), and a minimalist 24 hours EMERGENCY food supply.  Maybe half a regular day's calories.  And emergency water purification tablets to let you refill your water bottles in a true emergency.  This is held in reserve to keep you running for a day in a true emergency, should you have to drop your ruck and E&E or get cut off or pinned down in combat, etc.

Then your ruck / 3 day pack / assault pack having your regular water supply, however much food you need for your intended period out and about, and a water filter setup.

BTW, in the backpacking world, the general rule of thumb is that you need a minimum of 2 to 2.5 pounds worth of the most calorie dense food you can get to keep you going each day, minimum.  This is food you usually need to add water to.  And backpackers always lose weight on this kind of diet, having to make up for it with massive calorie splurges in down during long thru hikes.  That food is also quite bulky.  (MRE's weight about 1.25 pounds each btw.  So 3 MRE's will weigh in at 3.75 pounds / day)

Water is 2 pounds / quart.

So 4 quarts of water = 8 pounds.  3 days worth of backpacking food = 7.5 pounds (or 11.25 pounds for MREs)  These weights don't include water filter setup, bottles, bladders, etc.

So for just 3 days out and about, IF you stop to refill your water a couple times a day, you are looking at 16 to 20 pounds for JUST food and water alone.  

5 days in the field?  20.5 to 30 pounds.

The longest I ever carried food for while backpacking was 10 straight days, no resupply.  Cut down, hardcore minimalist diet with super calorie dense foods.  Tortillas, peanut butter, and honey.  Payday candy bars.  I was still carrying 25 pounds of food alone, plus another 8 in water when I was fully filled up.  Plus water bottles, filter, cook set, alcohol for alcohol stove, bear bag setup, etc.  Probably another 2 pounds worth there.  So my food and water setup for 10 days was almost 40 pounds when fully loaded.  





Your unit should probably have a good plan to re-supply themselves after whatever it is they are doing - drop off a food cache on the way in, resupply vehicles / bikes, whatever.

This takes into the idea that you are always going to have multiple loadouts worth of gear sitting around.  We may want to consider the idea of what you are wearing right now might be the only gear you will have access to long term.  ie, you might not have the luxury of swapping packs around for different missions.  Sure, if you can, fine.  But we should be planning on the contingency of that NOT being an option.  

Additionally, not cooking, boiling water, etc. is fine and great and all.  How many MRE's do you have stockpiled for your 6 man team?  48 hours with 6 men = 3 cases of MRE's.  

What?  No MRE's?  Are your guys going to be able to live off of tortillas, peanut butter, tuna, candy bars, canned nuts, etc?  Do you have that much stored up of that kind of food?  

What are you guys going to do month 3 of the Chinese Paratrooper invasion when you run out of no-cook food?  What about over the winter?

I'm not cracking on your statement btw.  It's technically correct.  For big army wartime.

I plan on going over some of my personal gear / load out for this thread, but I am going to take picture and such out in the field for more context. Maybe some this weekend, but for sure the following weekend.

Looks pretty close to how I set up a split front mav 15 years ago

This is how I've focused most of my gear. I've been backpacking since I was 8. I was Marine Corps infantry during the early GWOT.

I utilized an Alice belt and h harness most in the Marines because I was a saw gunner and could get away with it.

A chest rig actually works well with a backpacking ruck. I prefer a belt rig though or even a LBV. I hate to say it but I actually like them.

Some things I like in a fanny pack is a msr water filter, a sylny tarp instead of a poncho, socks, and food

Along with that I need binoculars and mres.

Food
Water
Socks
Shelter
Gun/Ammo
Observation

Garand thumb has some good videos on this

Carrying 24hrs of material on the belt? What Is the minimum you can survive on for a day? If you can live on a quart or two of water, two stripped mres and sleep on the ground maybe you can.

I think a small pack Is almost paramount, if not for the fact that It can be dropped as soon as possible everytime Is possible. If you embrace the British way of thinking you keep rations and water in the pack except for One canteen and some simple food on the belt that in case of need could sustain you a day (or male you survive for even more) if you are away from the daysack. The idea would be to also drop the belt kit and keep only the body armor with some ammo and a gunshot kit if there Is an objective to attack.


On a side note, i saw a video from a Channel a few days ago about ww3 in the pacific. One of those entertaining well filmed videos with zero practical informazioni. There was however a Marine that said how for jungle combat they are trying to make the individual carry items to purify water instead of carrying It. That would make team movement tied around places with water, which if i recall correctly attracts Animals, including large bipedal ones that could have camps set up near

Other sparse things i read on books that stuck in my mind over the years:

-Regarding Water, Bruce Norton's "force recon 1969" book states that when assembling kit for a Recon "water was packed last, as It was the most hated thing due to weight, but the most necessary"....well, i guess that a week worth of canned rations and spare prc25 batteries was no joke too. Yet they couldnt pack enough water and had to refill. The author First tour ended when he almost died from drinking Water from a pond the vietcong had poisoned by sticking dead rotting pigs to the bottom of It.

-i don't Remember the book but there are pictures of macv sog member John St.Martin, fully kitted up for a 48hr mission with description. He had only a BAR belt full of ammunition with 2/4 canteens hanging from it and a C4 tube charge slung Pancho villa style. His whole existence Gear for two days was carried in a Claymore bandolier cut in half (around a canteen pouch sized) with a rolled poncho tied under it. He would sleep wrapped in the poncho leaning on a tree.

-"poilu" Is the war diary written during war by a French that was called for war in 1914. He was a socialist already in his late 30s and managed to fight the whole war as a private/corporal. He writes than when doing long marches from rear to front line sometimes he would discard the rucksack and later Just pick up one that belonged to a deceased, as they were all packed the same. a soldiers personal items were in his coat pockets. Obviously weapon and ammo was not discarded.
I found this part interesting, but could never apply It. I know that the brits have some resupply bags packed all the same and taken as needed, even if it's not the same It streamlines logistics a Little. Maybe as a civilian in certain limited occasions prior caching of resupply items May be an idea.

No cracking offense taken.

Part of my interest is exactly what you said, big army is one thing, but in the context of this thread and civil martial considerations, what makes sense?

I suppose I haven't ever measured anything in "field" time.  I do have a substantial stock of doomer supplies, food, water, energy, but I have never tailor any of it towards the field.  I measure it in weeks for the family, not days per person, which is a thought to have moving forward.

And yeah, there's only what you've got right now to accommodate a bunch of scenarios, so what makes sense to keep in your stores when you don't have the trillion dollar supply chain behind you?  For both your gear and what you're carrying in it?

My experience is pretty limited to backpack camping with the kids, bring on the +60L pack.



I'd be really interested to see what you find useful.

The lack of Alice in a man’s life is only a result of lack of imagination sometimes,

Attached File

Yea.  People overlook classic gear like the MAV.  It's still what I run as a dedicated heavy chest rig.  Eventually I'll fab myself up a fully sewn on one.  But ain't nothing wrong with the MAV.

Go back and read what I said carefully.  I said to keep stuff on the belt that would allow you to fight for up to 24 hours IN AND EMERGENCY.  2 Quarts of water + 1,200-1,500 calories worth of emergency food (I said half day's worth of rations).  I didn't say it specifically, but my buttpack has a poncho and a poncho liner in it  (both lighter, less bulky non-military issue ones).  This gives you bare-bones emergency ability to keep going for a day.  It's not intended that you actually live off of that alone for the day.  This is your reserve.  (I also keep a dozen water purification tablets in there in case I have to / can refill my water)

I fully condone running a smaller patrol or assault pack with you main water and food, and probably better shelter items in it - plus the ability to procure more water for yourself.  Which you WILL have to be doing if you aren't part of a military unit that has very good logistics.  For instance, this has been one of the huge issues in Ukraine - Ukrainian troops have been complaining for over a year now that they aren't getting regular food and especially no regular water resupplies.  That they are being forced to fend for themselves for water.  Sure, it's not optimal for troops to have to do that, but when are things optimal?

So much going on in this thread. Lots of good stuff. Just my quick thoughts in regards to belt kit/LBE/Alice.  I thing of it being set up for a short patrol (4-8 hours) outside the FOB/property/basement or whatever.  If that turns into an overnighter, you can make it 24 hours. If you plan on being out longer than a few hours, always plus up with a pack. Pack size dependent on your planned duration. Good old METT-TC and all that. As said, food and water are the big weight and bulk factors.  And weather.  While you should always be prepared for some rain, going out when you know it’s gonna be raining sideways, you need to pack appropriately. As with cold weather too.

This is actually something I've been pondering upon myself.  

Most of the calorie dense, ready to eat foods out there don't have the longest shelf life.  Tubs of peanut butter have a shelf life of up to 5 years if stored correctly.  Foil packets of tuna and chicken have similar shelf lives.  There is a brand of flour tortillas - old el paso brand I think? - that are sealed in a nitrogen purged package, they have a shelf life of about a year.  MRE's of course.  The humanitarian rations - they aren't tasty, but they are stupid cheap right now.  Payday candy bars are a backpacking mainstay, they have a shelf life of 4 or 5 years and no chocolate to melt. Canned nuts - I'm a fan of those flavored almonds, I forget the brand, but they are the ones with the Wasabi almonds.  Those are calorie dense and have a decent shelf life.  

You can rehydrate (mostly) oatmeal (the quick-oats or little packets of flavored oatmeal) without heat, if you let them soak in a nalgene bottle for hours before eating it.  It's an old backpacking trick.  You can do the same thing with couscous and dehydrated mashed potatoes are almost instant, though hot water seriously makes all these better.

There are pre-cooked rice packets - the 'microwave in the package and eat' - at the store, they last a couple years on the shelf.

They are heavier, but Campbells Chunky canned soup lasts 3-5 years on the shelf, and if you are careful, some of them are quite calorie and protein packed.  You can eat those cold or dumped over any of the bulk carbs.

Ramen noodles, you can partially rehydrate them just soaking in water.  They are totally edible uncooked and hard btw.  Some people actually like spreading peanut butter on them and eating them that way.  Heathens.  But I mean, that's a way of doing bulk calories.  BTW, mixing honey in with peanut butter is a backpacking thing.  They also mix protein powder in with it sometimes, which also has a decent shelf life.  

You can freeze olive oil, a little nalgene bottle full of olive oil dumped on everything (or oil or fat of your choice) adds bulk calories too.  (you should see some of the concoctions hardcore backpackers come up with)

Certain kinds of chocolate have a long shelf life.  The little tins of Scho-Ka-Kola caffeine infused chocolate (you can get them cheap by the case from Varusteleka) last over 5 years and have a good shelf life + is actually really good chocolate.  Emergency field rations for the British homeguard, btw, was a bag of raisins and chocolate.  

Eventually you are going to be forced to go oldschool and cook your food.  You just aren't going to have constant resupply of field rations.  Knorr brand rice packets, you can cook those in about 5 minutes for instance.  

Then further down the road, just bulk white rice + whatever you have sitting around to send out with them.

***

The Germans during WW2 had a couple different levels of food.  Most of their food for their frontline infantry was provided via field kitchens.  Cooking regular food.

They also all carried a full day's ration, called the 'Iron Ration' or something like that.  This was their marching ration that they ate if they didn't have access to the field kitchens.  It was regularly rotated out, and consisted of a tin of 'canned meat' and a decent sized piece of hard bread.  

Also, they usually had an emergency ration, usually something like a tube of Erbswurst (a condensed 'sausage' made out of dried split pea soup mixed with some kind of meat and fat, like bacon and beef fat.  It's actually pretty dang good btw) or a condensed tomato soup, along with some hard tack.  You had to be directly ordered to break into this ration.  These rations have a decent shelf life.  Erbswurst isn't sold anymore, but you can make it at home pretty easily.  It's tasty, you can freeze it, and it has a regular shelf life outside of the freezer of something like 6 months to a year.  Hard tack is something else you can make at home.  Both end up having longer shelf lives if you vacuum seal them.  Hard tack, if done right, has an almost unlimited shelf life btw.  That dude on youtube who eats military rations ate some hard tack from the Civil War if I remember correctly.  Then again, he's been hospitalized for his ration eating antics a few times  

The paratroopers and such had more dedicated combat rations - special canned rations and food bars and such.  But those are more like MRE's in a sense.  

This whole subject is a massive subject in and of itself.  Alot of this was worked out by militaries back in the day, but most of their answers ended up with field kitchens or salt pork and hard tack (the civil war basically) or stuff like that.  You just aren't going to be able to store up enough actual field rations to feed all your bros going out and helping you gather in your soccer mom harem.  Not without cooking food in the field eventually or having an industrial base to supply everyone.  Do some math on how many PALLETS of MRE's you are going to need to feed a simple platoon of guys living in the field for a single month.  

12 MRE's / Case
48 Cases / Pallet
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576 MRE's / Pallet

192 Days / Food for one person

4,8 days / Food for a platoon of 40 dudes

You need 6.25 PALLETS of MRE's to keep a platoon of 40 dudes in the field for a single month.  

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Practical suggestion by me?  Well, everyone should have a week's worth of rations in MRE form.  For each person in your family.  You can get a case of those humanitarian rations for like $35 delivered.  They suck, but they keep you going and stupid cheap.  This will let you roll on in ANY emergency (emergency evacuation because a train derailed in your town carrying dangerous chemicals like happened to a couple guys on this forum?  Wildfire?  etc?)

This will give you a week to operate in the field if you had to also.  

Then a week or two of food you can eat backpacking style, without cooking.  Ramen, peanut butter, some candy bars, energy bars, nuts, packets of tuna and chicken, all the stuff mentioned above.  Again, these can be substituted for the MRE's.  

Then maybe a month of cookable backpacking style food.  Rice packets, mountain house, etc.  

At this point you have a couple months emergency food, which is good to have on hand anyways.  And give you a decent capability of being helpful in the field for whatever reason - Chinese Paratroopers to local disaster relief, etc.  

After that that?  *shrug*  learn to cook rice well in the field?  I'd probably go heavy on oatmeal at this point actually.  Easier to cook in the field, more protein.  

C'mon.  Be realistic.  The basement.  That is under your FOB (codename 'Mom's House'), that is on your property.  

That 4-8 hour patrol is where the poncho roll on top of your sustainment pouches on your belt kit really shine.  It lets you carry a few more clothing layers and some snacks for while you are out and about.  Plus whatever you have in your pockets for immediate snacking.  

I'd also probably still consider a minimalist assault pack or at least something like a camelback.  For more water, especially in the hot and humid areas like in the SE.  That water on your belt kit ain't going to last you 4-8 hours of patrolling when it's 95F and 95% humidity.  Which is 4-6 months of the year from NC all the way around the coast to the TX border.  

I like the battle belt to carry everything necessary for battle, mags, meds, canteen, ect. Everything else needed for sustainment goes in the ruck/backpack that you can drop/stash if need be. I think as a civilian in shtf, support would be unreliable at best so it'd be good old fashioned looting and pillaging/raiding for supplies.

Refer to METT-TC.  But you’re right, it’s very rare that two quarts of water are enough for any patrol.  Especially in light of this thread.  A simple camelbak/hydro carrier or a 2 quart canteen are always a great addition. Maybe even a wine bota for Joe.

One canteen (gas mask compatible) and one nalgene with steel cup on belt kit. At least two more hard containers of water in a pack. Add more depending.  

On belt kit, water pre-filter cloth, filter and tablets. Liquid IV flavor packs.

In ruck, another filter and more tablets. Liquid IV flavor packs added to food packs.

In team sustainment gear, 12v water pump that runs off the same battery as the HF radio. Large water container for dirty water with pump and large water can for filtered / treated water. Alice frames with cargo shelves / straps to carry water for the source or through the field.

* I would like to try the life straw water bottle with built in filter. Need to buy one for field testing. Lots of live stock in my area……. So filtering and treating is a pretty solid plan. Lol. Boiling even better if it can be done.

Scepter water cans off Amazon are good to go for larger containers.

I think I’m going to break out my water filtration kit and test it with water from our cisterns.

I always keep extra filters in storage.  I am designing all my systems off of Sawyer filters, so I can swap them out if I need to.  Those little Sawyer filters are cheap and all over the place.