Ah, I see what you mean.

Yuuuuup.

Yea, most attaching packs to packs is iffy.  It works if it's well designed / supported well / attached the right way / not overly loaded down.

My thinking is a partial lid / backpack combo.  Where part of the assault pack lies up on top of the pack, with the other part draped down the top of the back of the pack.  Maybe make the top part of the pack a SAW style pouch for linked ammo or a half dozen AR mags, and have that sitting on top of the pack, to support that heavy weight.  If you position it right, you should have head clearance for prone.  Then the bottom part of the pack that is draped down the back of the pack is the storage pouch with 2 canteen bottle pouches on the sides.  Think a SAW pouch on top of a buttpack, with water bottle pouches attached to the sides of the buttpack.

Yea.  It's relatively easy to differentiate woodland and multicam for instance.  However, ATACS FG and multicam or British DPM and Woodland (or desert night as mentioned) are significantly harder to tell apart unless right up on someone.

No offense, but your proposal sounds complicated and rather expensive to make instead of my proposed "stacked but independent" pack concept.  Perhaps I am not fully seeing the construction/value of your concept.  Again, no offense.

I think it useful to consider the circumstances under which such auxiliary pack systems may be used in conjunction with the "Jungle Rig" .

As originally envisioned, the belt-mounted "Jungle rig" is intended for short-term use, especially in hot/humid climates.

Adding any sort of backpack kinda works against that concept in hot/humid environments.  That said, adding such an additional pack may be required, even in hot/humid environments, as long as such a pack, or pack(s) can be easily doffed.  

Unless extreme conditions are encountered, such as Cold/Wet and/or Arctic conditions, I believe a reasonable backpack system can be designed to accommodate the "Jungle rig" and work well with it.

In a true Cold/Wet and/or Arctic environment, perhaps the "Jungle rig" may not be suitable, since the volume/size of the required backpack and its load bearing waistbelt may be an over-riding concern.   I can envision some packs being designed to work with the "Jungle rig" that may work for all but the most extreme environments.

Bonus points if such "detachable" packs can be donned by the user without doffing the base "Jungle rig", and without the help of a buddy.  That alone would be a huge improvement over what currently exists.

Early days with this concept, although similar rigs have been made in the past.  Suggest keeping the items easy to use, and simple (inexpensive) to construct.

I probably didn't explain it well.  I'm trying to figure out how to have the 'assault pack' ride on top of the main pack, as the weight of some of the items that you'd want to pack in the 'assault pack' (ammo and water) weight alot and would cause the smaller pack to not be stable on the back / sides of the main pack.

I get what you are saying about 2 different packs, basically a packing cube on the bottom of the pack frame - similar to the old ALICE sleep system carrier concept, but bigger and as the main sustainment 'pack'.  Then room to nest, above that, a small assault pack.  That is probably the best solution to this problem, I'll agree with you on that.  But what I'm saying above is something that people can throw on packs they already have, as most people aren't going to go buy a new pack.  

I'd add to your idea taller side pockets (the 'rocket' pockets as on the British packs) and a rear compression panel and a top lid similar to the ALICE pack or whatever.  This would create a hollow 'void' under the lid and between the side pockets to nest in an assault pack that was designed to fit in there.  Or alternatively you could use it as a pack-shelf style heavy hauler if you had to.  Lug those .50 ammo cans or whatever.

No, perhaps I did not explain "my" concept well enough.  Large pack "on top" and easily doffed, while small pack below it being retained.

Small pack below the large pack, and so reduced balance issues.  Likely same external dimensions, except that "small" pack of reduced height.  Large pack easily doffed if need be; Bonus points for easily doffing small pack, if need be.

Extra bonus points for being able to don either pack without assistance or doffing of Jungle rig to do so.

Both packs being designed to ride well with one another, and in conjunction with underlying "Jungle rig" platform.   Small pack, alone, rides on "shelf" of Jungle rig.

Add-on "rocket" pockets can be taken too far if it inhibits user's arm movement.  Within the constraints of this proposed concept, likely better to have an Upper Large pack as wide as possible, and without "rockets".  The lower, smaller pack takes the place of the "rockets" and needs no re-configuration (or additional harness) to perform its function.

Without pix, this may be hard to envision. My apologies.

As far as hauling 5-gal gas/water can and/or multiple ammo cans goes, a very stout rig will be necessary to do such, most likely with a decent frame and shoulder straps, along with multiple securing straps. I've tried doing so.

Are you talking about something like a Haley flat pack (or similar ) that would kind of “nest” inside the frame of a larger ruck?

This is an interesting discussion too. I have some mutlicam stuff because I think it is more effective and versatile where I live. I like woodland because it’s not used by any government agencies anymore. I think it’s a little too dark though. I wish they made a woodland without the black in it.

I don’t think I would be waving flags at anyone if we’re talking about any kind of scenario with possible hostile elements around. I’d rather not be seen, and I wouldn’t trust anyone else not to be using a false flag.

Me too.  There are some foreign woodland patterns that come close - Polish Woodland and Italian Vegetato come to mind.  

Kryptek Mandrake is a good solid woodland option.

ATACS IX isn't a bad choice, it's kinda a 'tiger stripe + ATACS FG + woodland all get together and make a love child' pattern.  

Heck, even running ATACS FG instead of multicam is better than multicam in that scenario.  Though the Ruskies use it as an issue pattern.

Pencott Greenzone is a really good color too.  I quite like it.

I'm hoping to eventually do a run of smocks - both pull-over and full on British style smocks - in WW2 German Splinter and Rhodesian Brushstroke.  (trigger the appropriate people!)  I just need to get these other projects done first to clear up time for patterning.

The reason US Woodland is the go-to item is a mixture of nostalgia, it works decently in alot of the country, it's retro-cool, and there is alot of gear - and most importantly, CHEAP uniforms in it.  Try finding ANY uniforms in some of the above patterns, much less cheap ones.  You can get decent, new Woodland BDU's for $35 shipped.  Try that in any of the gucci camos.

Also, I'm going to point out that, while it's technically BETTER to have all-matching camo that's perfect for your locale - the camo TOP is most important when it comes to target ID and such.  Wearing multicam bottoms with some other top is WAY better than just multicam.





50/50 chance you will be waving a 'shoot me!' sign at an enemy.....

Ok guys!  The time is finally come!  I'm about to post the for-sale ad in the equipment exchange for the belt kits I've been putting together.  I wanted to post this first so that I can link to it in the ad for more detailed info.  I'll update this post with the for sale link when I get it done.

Posted on EE:  https://www.ar15.com/forums/Equipment-Exchange/Multiple-Jungle-British-Belt-Kit-Sets-ALICE/90-2422003/



Total of 9 British style belt kits.  All using surplus British (and Dutch) surplus pouches, sewn directly to a modern padded belt.  

Each comes with a new surplus PLCE harness, except one that is a used surplus harness and one that is a prototype of one of my custom modern harnesses.  All of the PLCE harnesses are modified with 2 extra front straps, to make them 8 point harnesses (the extra straps are removable if you only want 6) and I added sternum straps to each one.

I made these to fill a niche that people kept asking for - a budget option without resorting to airsoft quality gear for someone to get into the belt kit world.  With popular options like the Velocity Systems kit running into the $600+ range and shipping from England making the cost of gear coming straight from England outrageous, I could understand why.  So I gathered up all of my surplus pouches I've collected over the years and started sewing these up over the last few months.  

Each of these belt kits are solid options - I rejected about 20% of the pouches I had as I thought they were used too much.  Some of these pouches are new, some in almost new condition, and most in the solid 'good' category.  There isn't anything wrong with the pouches, I went through and checked them pretty closely and I washed the used ones (using a non-IR reflecting detergent).

Each of them are unique (I found out the hard way that none of the surplus pouches, even the ones made by the same companies in the same years were anywhere near regular) and as this project was also partly teaching me to sew tactical gear and working on solid designs for modern padded belts, some of the sewing looks rough.  It's all solid - I am warrantying the sewing for life btw - but if you look closely, some of it doesn't LOOK pretty, especially with the binding tape (Half of the binding tape was done by hand, which is a massive pain, then half of it was done teaching myself to use a binding tape adapter on my sewing machine, which has a steep learning curve.  I had to trash a few belts after having to go back in and redo the binding tape a half dozen times on them before I started getting halfway decent.) I am self-conscious about how it looks, because I am a perfectionist, but the stitching is solid, with the tension done right and using modern American made bonded nylon T69 thread.  Same with the materials, they are all American stuff, real cordura and such. I also have gone overboard with trying to make these as sturdy as possible - it is my goal to provide quality kit that is designed to last for the long-term. I hate stuff falling apart.

Also, the sewing of the pouches themselves to the belt itself looks funky. Again, it's solid, but the pouches are all off, dimension wise, and with the thickness of the fabric stack, I could barely clear the fabric stack with my presser foot, even with my industrial machine with an extra-high presser foot.  So it would roll off-line really easily, making the stitching not perfectly straight. Same with the pouches not being perfectly straight from the factory, some were tilted a bit.

I have over-stitched everything, and the British pouches are in good condition and quite well built. These belt kits will probably outlast most of us. All of the inside-facing material (the part against the skin) is uncoated cordura or packcloth. I got what I could find, as pickings for uncoated fabric like this is slim, so enjoy the various camo patterns that no one will see.

The one custom harness I have in there is the first 'production' prototype of my custom harnesses I am working on.  I still need to go in and clean up the stitch lines - figure out EXACTLY where I need stitching, as I over-do it.  And there are a couple minor tweaks, but that's the basic design I am currently working with.  The binding tape was done by hand, it was done before I got the binding tape adapter for my machine, so it isn't perfectly straight and pretty.

My next set of goals with my sewing is to fine-tune my stitching - specifically making it LOOK good. I do alot better when it comes to new production stuff, my stitching on things like MOLLE and regular seams is pretty good.  Binding tape is my nemesis.

I have a few more projects I'm doing, a few buttpacks and buttpack-rigged belt kits for people. I will be ordering a bunch of British pouches for more budget kits - I have a line on a bunch of new British Desert camo pouches for cheap that I'm thinking about getting an dyeing OD Green-ish, then making sets of belt kit.  My next sets should be really nice - the last few I did in this run I was starting to be proud of finally. Like I said, I'm a perfectionist, but it's getting to the point that I can put out quality stuff.

Let me know if you have any specific questions about the kits. I also am requesting feedback, ideas, suggestions, etc.

Those look awesome! Makes me want an industrial machine even more now, damn you

They are way better than a domestic.  Though a good, older domestic isn't bad.

You can get an older, used industrial machine pretty cheap if you are patient and shop around.  It helps if you are in a heavily populated area.  Even the really old stuff - 1930's and such - will still do good work, depending on the machine.

I'm going to eventually be releasing patterns for some basic kit items so that people can roll their own with this stuff.  However, unless you REALLY shop around and / or use alternative materials, you will find out that material costs on a small scale like this is HUGE.  In some cases it's cheaper to just buy the item that was mass produced.  But I want people to be self-sufficient and be able to make their own gear.  We need to start bringing industry back into the USA, and that includes sewing.  ALOT of the stuff we buy will get cut off if we end up in a war with China - especially sewn items.  And we are quickly losing the experience and knowledge base we had back in the day when we used to have the largest sewing industry in the world here in the USA.  People forget that the last people who really worked in that industry were laid off in the 90's - 30 years ago.  Think about that for a minute.  Most of the people who worked in that industry are now over 60.  Another decade or two and we will not even have the memory of that skill base.

I'm right there with you. I happen to be right next to a manufacturer of "gear" so I could potentially be able to contract something but I would rather know what I'm doing for myself. I'm "ok" on a domestic machine making cotton based things. But cordura or something of the like is kinda lost on me because of the limitations I have with what I got.

I'll be watching for a sam culpepper tutorial

Double.

-bad intenet

If you stick to, say, 500d cordura or packcloth and keep it to 2 or 3 layers and limit your webbing, you can do basic stuff with a domestic.  If you want super simple gear, and are careful with your designs, you'd be surprised what you can make with a domestic.  It might not end up being pretty or gucci, but totally useable.  

For instance, a chi-com style chest rig is totally doable on a domestic.  The most you'd have to do would be 4 layers of fabric or 2 layers of fabric and a layer of webbing.  That's doable on most domestics.

I can agree with that. But my particular machine will struggle with about 4 layers of canvas. Maybe I have the wrong needle, maybe wrong settings. I'm not completely sure, but I'm fairly sure it wouldn't do cap's pack or any of your belt kits. I can sew in a straight line, that's about all you can get out of me until I get some kits coming my way

Yea, you won't be able to do the belt kits and harnesses I do.  I have one of the nicer old domestic machines out there, all-metal.  Modern new engine, and I was seriously pushing it's limits.  I getcha.  

On IFF.  Yeah that's an issue.  Hard to get some kind of universal C&P out there- to the good guys only.  No easy answer here.  You have to set your SOP to a level of risk you can live with, and hope for the best.  

One example.  We were training guys who wanted to try out for Ranger school in the National Forest one time.  Full kit with rifles, practicing patrol procedures.  We bumped two Fuds out walking with scoped bolt actions.  Evidently we strayed outside of Forest and onto their land.  They hailed us at about 50-60 m and asked us what we were doing on their property.  I yelled back we were training guys up for Ranger School.  Then they were like no shit? we'd be interested in that too.  So all's well in this case but it could have turned ugly in a hurry.  

This was a "simultaneous sighting", in that we saw each other at roughly the same time, and both halted in place to "parly".  Neither one of us wanted to fire up the other (at least without provocation), so you just identify yourselves.  If that passes the smell test, then you might send someone closer for more discussion.  Or not.  Gonna depend entirely on you.  If you are both "locals" then perhaps arrangements could be worked out.  Boundaries set, running challenge and passwords established, and so forth.  If one of you is "passing through" then a route might be suggested.  If they need shelter, then that has to be discussed.  

Another time we had set up a patrol base for an overnighter.  The instructor would sneak outside the perimeter, and the wonder back up, like a refugee, dazed and confused, but trying to enter our perimeter.  We politely but firmly told him to get fucked.  One guy covers while the other parlays.  Sure helped to have NV (me) and Thermal (my buddy) to see his stupid ass as far out as possible, so we could react to his stupid shit.  

Guys get lost and separated on exercise all the time.  You have a common term like "ranger" that you stage whisper to each other.  If the guy doesn't fire, then you approach closer, within talking distance and give the current challenge and password.   Or you give numbers that add up to 7, or whatever.  You say "3", he answers "4".  He says "2", you answer "5".  Then you say a sentence with the challenge word, and he says something with the password in it.  Use your imagination.  Or just "fuck me naked, sure glad to see you guys".  Usually good ice-breaker.  

What cammo a person has on may or may not tell you anything.  You're gonna need something past that.  You can look at the Ukraine vids for some ideas.  Cut down signal panels, chem lites, bird calls, running challenge and passwords, local radio freq's, color bands on hats or arm sleeves.  Of course if all else fails, there's just the universal sign of raising up your weapon's hand, to show you mean no harm, and see how they reciprocate.  Then call out and see how they respond.  If they are locals, find common ground, folks, places you both know, etc.  If they're not, try to get a read on what their intentions are.  If they are very stiff and refuse to engage, they're either scared shitless or preparing to attack.  Remember Southern Narc's violence indicators?  "Target" glancing, facial "grooming", and finally weight shift.

It goes without saying, practicing this stuff beforehand is a good idea.  Brief the "strangers" to act in all sorts of goofy ways.  Remember those "survival scenario" playing cards?  Having group discussions beforehand can work much of this out.

On sewing machines.  Your limiting factors are usually presser foot height, needle size, and thread diameter.  If you can get the work under the presser foot, it will usually sew it.  If the needle will punch through, and if the thread will lock up roughly in the center of the work, GTG.  If the needle breaks, and/or the thread won't pull through (lays on bottom), then you're pretty much fucked.  

To get the maximum out of your home sewing machine.  Get the biggest needle that will fit in there; probably a no. 18, ball point.  Get "extra heavy-duty nylon thread".  Walk machine through by hand if necessary.  The most important part is when the thread take up lever pivots up, thereby setting the thread lock up in the work.  Use a slow, steady motion to set needle into work, but a sharp pull to help lever set the thread.  So you roll the hand wheel down steadily then re-grip and give it a sharp tug (!).  You can even get into a sort of rhythm doing it (!!).  Yeah, it's a pain in the ass, but will work.

Quick sewing question:  I'm beginning my sewing experience by sewing protective grosgrain ribbon onto the seared but exposed edges of typical GI ALICE and MOLLE pouches.  The material is not all that thick; only two layers of fabric plus the wrapped-around grosgrain ribbon--4 layers total.  Assuming correct (#18 round-tip) needle, and correct Tex 70 bonded thread, how many stitches per inch would be optimal?  I think that a single line of stitches would be sufficient to secure the grosgrain ribbon.  Suggestions most welcome!  @diz  @marnsdorff

Sounds like you got it set up.  I'd shoot for 6 spi as a general rule.

TYVM!

TBH, I'm just eyeballing it.  Looking at the higher end tactical gear and trying to make it look like that, when it comes to number of stitches.  

If in doubt, I shy on the 'a little more' stitches per inch.

As for stitching and grosgrain ribbon - sure, one stitch line will secure it.  I do two though - especially on grosgrain edge ribbon.  Because if one line of stitching fails, if that edge binding comes off, that's a pain in the ass to fix.  And in some situations, is a vital part of the construction of that item.

This is something I'm going to be working on dialing in here btw, stitches per inch.  I understand gear design and construction pretty well now, my actual sewing isn't bad, I understand tension and such.  I now want to work on 3 things:

1.  Edge binding, especially using the edge adapter tool.  I get it solidly on there now, but the stitching is not perfectly straight and spaced all the time.  It's one of the most visible parts on the gear, and it just doesn't LOOK good.  Which is half the battle, even if the construction quality should be the most important bit.  

2.  I need to clean up my regular stitching a bit.  I tend to ad-hoc it a little, which results in extra stitch lines here and there.  I need to dial in exactly what I need to do for each piece I'm doing, ie, 'I need a single stitch line here'  and  'I need a bartack line here'.  And now that I am standardizing what I'm making, I can start to do that more.

3.  Stitches per inch.  I really do need to dial this in to a standard.

If I can complete those 3 things, I will be able to honestly say that I am actually good at this kind of sewing.

I just don't like the thicker belts and the back MOLLE panels that some of these Jungle Kit are including. I'd much prefer just the straight up old school ALICE style belt with a "Y" harness just updated to a MOLLE system.

The DZ Rig set up for me. With two 30 oz canteens filled, comes in right at 26 pounds. Feels like 10 pounds while worn.
The DG3 pack is about 80% set up. I keep altering things due to weight.

Pistols, pistol mags, 3 Knives, Poncho, Survival tin, and other things are carried on my person, whether that be on my Wilderness Tactical Instructor belt that fits comfortably under the DZ Rig, or my numerous pants pockets.

Understand that the rig is set up for my wandering around the miles of woods, fields, beaver ponds, old strip mines and trails that I am fortunate enough to have right across the road from my property. I used to hunt it for deer, turkey, grouse, and small game but now just practice bushcrafting, hiking, exploring, and playing around. Things would change for other scenarios.

Starting at the 2 Left side Magazine pouches, I have two 25 round 7.62 NATO mags in each one. The M4 single mag pouch attached to front pouch webbing has a CAT Tourniquet.
An ALICE Compass pouch is attached to the left chest strap and holds a Suunto MC2 Compass. 1:24000 Topo Map in Waterproof case attached to chest strap and rides comfortably and secure under the strap.
Attached File


The 2 Right side mag pouches also has an M4 mag pouch attached, holding a CAT tourniquet, shears, and rubber gloves. A small pouch is attached to the waist belt holding 8 power binoculars.
Front pouch holds other IFAK goods shown, and rear mag pouch holds six 700 calories each meal bars.
Attached File


Both Canteen Pouches hold Pathfinder 39 oz Canteens, nesting cup, stove, and lid with a cotton cloth for straining water, cleaning, and keeping all the metal from making noise. Left pouch also holds spoon/fork, canteen hanger, and Silkyboy wood saw in M4 pouch. Right pouch also has 20 packs of instant coffee, and purification tablets.
Attached File


Rear pouch holds Israeli Folding Rocket Stove, lots of Paracord and bankline, emergency Blanket, Knot Tying Cards, Tin holding 6 Fire starting wafers, Ferro Rod and Striker, Titanium Trowel, 2 rolls of trip wire, toothpaste, brush and floss, 25 Combat Wipes, 24 Stormproof Matches in Waterproof case, 50 Water Purifier Tablets, 8 Trioxane Bars, an Expandable Bellows, 2 metal pencil sharpeners, 10 expandible towels, Hand Sanitizer, and 8 packs of IV Inhancer Powder.
Attached File

Thicker belt?  Like, thickness of the belt, or tall-thickness?  

I too don't like the back molle panels.  That's why the panels I'm making are straight mesh except for the webbing.

Why a Y harness instead of at least an H harness?

Nice.  I like the bushcraft setup.

How are the Range bars?  What kind of shelf life do they have?

They are very good tasting (to me), filling, and don't seem to freeze or melt. Worth the money (again, to me).
The ingredients are well thought out. The added sugar actually is Organic Honey. The Coffee ones add caffeine, so it helps with energy out in the field.
This is a FAQ answer about shelf life from their website;
Each Range meal bar is marked with a 15 month shelf life. Ultimately, our testing extended to 18 months, with no indication of food safety issues such as rancidity. We based the 15 month shelf life on food quality considerations, such as increased dryness in the bar texture, caused by protein cross linking over time.

Thanks for the info and pics on your loadout

Well it’s finally done.  Sorry for the wall of text, but I thought I would break down what I could to show that any old guy can make gear.

Last year I made my own PLCE (pics somewhere back in this thread).  Figured now it was time to make my own pack.  I won’t go into all the detail of making it. I used a Singer 4452 domestic sewing machine. It held up very well. There were less areas with multiple layers of material on this compared to my PLCE build. I really tried to break it down into working in sections, setting plans on what I would work on, and stuck to it. Overall, I have about 26 hours into this build.  The hardest part was sewing all the pieces together to make the final body of the pack.  Materials are 500D Cordura, a lightweight yellow ripstop for the interior, spacer mesh for the back panel, and 1/4 inch foam.  I doubled the foam for the back for a total of 1/2 padding, and used just the 1/4 foam for the shoulder straps. There are two tunnels made out of webbing for the aluminum frame stays.  After I bent these, I coated the ends with Flex seal to protect the corners. I have two lids. One is an Alice type lid that I will keep on hand to keep with the lack if I do need it. The other is a CROSSFIRE daypack lid that was generously gifted by Diz.  That will take the normal place on top of the pack. If I did want to take it off to use as a daypack away from camp, I could still use the other lid to keep the elements out.The one thing I had to adjust for after the fact was the lids. I guess because the main attachment points are at the sides, it left a gap in the center. I had to create a center attachment point to hold them in place. The stitching would be give a QC nightmares, but most of what is visible is straight.  You’ll see on one side where I joined the panels, a row of molle doesn’t line up.  Doesn’t effect functionality, but it is the one flaw that is noticeable. The bias tape on the harness is marginal at best.  I may just remake it entirely. It’s functional, just not pretty.

As you can see in the pics, the pack is scalable. In its smallest form, I can run it just with the Alice lid. I can then size up with the daypack lid and Sustainment pouches on all sides.  I have loops for compression straps to keep them all tight.  I Imagine the only time I might use the sustainment pouches is in the winter when I need more warming layers.  I would probably only use two pouches n the sides, but the capabilities for more pouches are there. I could even load up two 2 quart canteen pouches on the sides too.

I have taken it on several shake down walks. My typical dog walk circuit is a mile, 3/4 of which is around a pond and through a gas line right of way. Gives me some elevation changes and allows me to walk on sidewalks and grass/dirt.  I would say it carries very well.  I know I am being overly critical, but isn’t that always the way when you make something yourself? I’ve done two walks with 18 pounds and two walks with 26 pounds. The last one I did while wearing my PLCE. It acts as a shelf as advertised and takes some of the weight of the pack.  

I plan on making a video breaking it down some more. But please go ahead and fire away with questions, comments, and other feedback.

And now the pics……

Interesting.  Do they freeze freeze well?  Ie, if I put a few boxes in my deep freeze, will they get messed up for longish term storage?  Or you probably don't know.

I've been looking into different things like this for emergencies.  

About 15 years ago, I bought a couple cases of these meal replacement protein shakes that someone was making, that were sealed in thick MRE style mylar packaging.  Those things are still good today, I tried one of them a few months ago.  It's a full meal replacement shake, about 800 calories, ton of protein and all the vitamins and such you need if you took 2 per day.  Unlike most protein shakes, this one had carbs in it.  And they were individually packaged in that MRE style packaging.  I wish they were still in business.  They actually tasted good too.  I was surprised at how shelf stable they ended up being.

I don’t know how they would be after long term freezing.

I’m looking to get some of these liquid meals soon:
https://www.recpak.co/

I like the idea of using the Range bars more though, just because of the not having to use any of my water to prepare meals.
Especially in a true survival situation out in nature.

Hey man, that looks good for your first pack.  Packs get a little complicated, though in the end they are like any other 'pouch' - just scaled up in size.  But the shoulder straps and stays and such make it more complicated.

I've been tempted to take an old ALICE pack I have here apart to get a pattern from.  Or a British NI patrol pack I have.  Play around with making my own pack.  But I have a ton of packs, and I don't want to go to the trouble of patterning and prototyping them while I have so much else going on with other projects.  The design of these things probably take as much time as actually making them, even with examples to get basic ideas from.

Your comments about working in sections and that it took you about 26 hours is something people don't realize about this kind of work.  It takes ALOT of time to put together a new design for something, something you haven't done before.  If you guys knew the amount of time I spent R&Ding some of these belts and pouches and such that I've been working on, it would blow your minds.  Mass producing the same pouch or whatever 500 times is one thing, with multiple people doing each step.  One person does the cutting, one the MOLLE, one the side panels, one the suspension, one the frame, and one putting together the whole thing, with another doing binding tape.  Maybe even another doing final clean up, etc.  That's the idea of how this gear is made on a large scale, and why you can get a Diz rig for the price you can get them at.  Well.  That and mass-orders of materials, which cuts you 20-30% off the materials costs.  And cheap overseas labor, as they are made overseas.  (quite nicely too)  A team working like that can probably bang out a complete pack with 3-5 working hours invested.  

However, one guy designing and making a single item like the above REALLY complicates things, and you end up with 26 hours invested.  Let's say you just paid yourself $15 / hour to do that pack, that pack in labor alone would cost $390 in labor costs alone.  Materials, you are probably looking at, what, another $100 in material costs?  So adding everything up, that would be a $500 pack, BEFORE business profits were added in to the figure.

Now I bet if you had to do that pack over again, you could probably cut your time to down under 20 hours.  But still.  

This is why cottage industry gear costs so much.

Those belts I have up for sale?  I probably have $75-100 in labor costs penciled in for each one.  I've probably got 10 hours invested into each set by the time I was done, I had to teach myself a bunch of stuff about sewing pouches onto belts while doing it.  So I'm making probably $7.50 and $10 / hour by the time I get those sold.  Before taxes and fees.

But I'm ok with that, I used that as a learning experience to teach myself ALOT about sewing tactical gear.  And someone is going to get a really good deal, as those belt kits are actually really nice for the money.  

So question.  Where did you get the aluminum stays?  And any changes you'd make on the pack, now that you have it done?

Also looking forward to video.

I don't mine stuff that requires water.  There is a TON of water up here in the mountains.  Go down into any valley and there is water somewhere in there.

But, I do get you with what you said about the range bars.  Which is also why I am looking at them.

Damn that's nice work CAP6888!  It took me several years before I attempted a whole ruck build.  Good job.

Nice load out Devil Dog.  Let me know which way you'd like to jump with the rucksack.  Be glad to get you into the panels you want.  

Go for it Raf!

And congrats to Marnsdorf for getting his first rigs out for sale.

Didn’t mean to imply that I never use “add water” meals.
Have a bunch of Mountain House meals and these ones by a family owned business that I think tastes better and has more nutritional value:
https://www.nextmilemeals.com/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=9820542656&utm_content=95297050450&utm_term=next%20mile%20meals&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAlcyuBhBnEiwAOGZ2S1MvuaIOs_yoU_6ilH4vJyAFMFy6Kx-CYN9iPBOOpgC61_tJDZOJbxoCszIQAvD_BwE

Hot meals like hot coffee are great for morale and comfort.

Thanks for the offer Diz. I purchased 2 each of the auxiliary bags to hold stuff I want to get to quick without going into the pack. IE: gortex, pack cover, Grayl Geopress, main 10x10 tarp and stakes, and a camo mesh.
Pics and load out will be up soon as I get the stuff that I will predominantly be carrying in it sorted out.

First and foremost, many thanks to @Diz and @Marnsdorff for their help and suggestions.  I really appreciate it guys.

Aluminum is just some 1 inch flat bar (1/8 inch thick) from Home Depot.  Thanks to Google, got an ideas to use two large landscaping spikes in a vise to create a jig to shape them.  Really easy.

As far as changes, I would have given myself 1 inch clearance at the seams to seam it together. Think it would have been easier.  Something is janky with the draw cord sleeve across the back.  Actually the back near the top edge has so much going on, I think that may be the issue.  With that being said, maybe if I made the pack another inch or two taller it may have alleviated that.  I’m still not happy with the shoulder straps.  I mean they are comfortable and work, but something is off.  Maybe need to redesign the curves? Not sure. At least when I do that I will be better at the bias tape.  I didn’t get a picture of the inside, but I tried to make some mesh pockets with elastic at the top.  It didn’t turn out right.  When it was laid flat, it held closed, but when upright, it gets loose.  Not a huge deal since I ended up putting the lashing straps and Alice lid in one side and a ziploc with a hygiene kit in the other so they work fine.

I the end I’m happy with my work.  I’ve spent the better part of my life searching for the perfect pack.  Eberlestock has been the closest. But the pack sizes either don’t work with my gear, or the size is wrong for my needs.  And of course it doesn’t work with belt kit. The Savotta packs looked close to what I built, but I still couldn’t find one that seemed like the size I wanted.  Either too small or too big. I really wanted to get one of the DG packs, but I prefer internal frames to external frames.  I know it can carry more, and everyone swears how comfortable the DG packs are, but it’s not what I was looking for at the moment. With all that being said, there is something about making something yourself.  The satisfaction is so great.  I really took my time with this.  It definitely checks all the boxes of what I was looking for in a pack.  Hopefully it holds up and keeps carrying well.

Hey, thanks man.

Yea, I getcha.  I'm probably spoiled up here in the mountains   :-D

Also, those range meal bars are expensive!  Though I guess per calorie not horrible compared to other bars.

Yea man, no problem.  One of my goals doing all this is to spread the idea for people to start learning to sew, whether it be gear, clothing, repairs, etc.  I'm glad someone else is doing some bigger projects too. The more we do stuff, the more it will inspire others to try stuff.




Yea, I figured you would have some little nitpicks.  It always happens with first prototypes.  Especially on the more technical, having to deal with body curves like the shoulder straps is funky.  You will almost always need to do prototypes and actually try them on.




Same here.  I am looking for that 'perfect' smaller pack.  Something bigger than a minimalist assault pack, but not a full on pack.  I have a Crossfire, I'm fine with using that for a ruck.  I have a half dozen different backpacking packs and a smattering of other packs.  ALICE, NI Patrol Pack, oldschool Becker, Kelty MAP 3500, HPG Umlindi, etc.  If I do a pack, I'm probably going to redo an ALICE pack, because this turkish one I have is a bit rough, so I'll use it as a pattern to make a new one.  And then I'd do my dream 'patrol pack' - basically a HPG Umlindi, with a cinch and flap lid like yours instead of the zipper lid.  British utility pouch sized pockets on the sides for water bottles, maybe sized slightly bigger to allow 2 quart canteens.  Mag pouches above those, not sure what kind for sure, maybe just a simple 2 x single rifle mag pouch for low profile, or go bigger like a SAW pouch.  And I'm tossed up between MOLLE on the back with a beavertail / compression panel....or doing a few pockets, kinda like the old Becker patrol packs, but possibly laid out slightly different.

Basically a modern, modified hybrid between the HPG Umlindi, a NI Patrol Pack, and the old Becker and ALICE packs.  

Another possible layout I've been rolling around in my head is a narrow water bottle pouch, but tall, on the sides, up close to where my back would be, designed to hold the bigger 1.5L nalgene bottles.  And some kind of narrow pouch next to those.  I like the idea of the larger nalgene bottles for bulk water carrying.

Main concern I have with adding packs and bags to belt kits is stacking more layers over your shoulder pocket, it tends to cause issues with shouldering a rifle, and adds strain to the shoulders if they don’t integrate well with the belt yoke.

It’s why I prefer smaller packs that attach to either the yoke, or the back of a plate carrier. Day pack isn’t too hateful to keep on your person, particularly if it’s got a stiffener and ties into the belt kit like the DZ rig allows. I’ve worked out some convenient means of quick-detach for easy access without removing the armor, but re-attaching is only semi-convenient, especially if you’ve got any weight in the pack. Retrofit cobra buckles tied into the shoulder straps, and some smaller fastex buckles/webbing to tether the bottom of the bag.

With a day pack and belt kit, you’ve got 48 hours worth of gear and sustainment, maybe 72, depending on your loadout. It’s enough for my purposes, I can deal with having to remove the harness to get into the pack, it’s not as annoying as removing a plate carrier. The belt rigs excel at foot patrols, it’s the best option for jungle warfare, it’s just that carrying anything in the jungle fucking sucks.

Cold weather, belt rig isn’t a bad choice, unless you’re in a vehicle. You’d probably run armor under your outermost layer, with LBE overtop.

Wet, ehh… Not ideal, but nothing is, really, once you’re swimming.

I'm actually throwing around the idea of a 'bum roll' or 'poncho roll' and a truly minimalist daypack on top of that if I want to carry more, but not carry my main ruck.  I've been forgetting about the poncho roll the British use.  With a minimalist day pack, you don't have the strap issues you are talking about.

Sick pack, cap. Really impressive stuff. I would put a bid on it in if you were to sell it for a v2.

*coughcough* do it *coughcough*

$250

Fight me

Edit- (Don't really, I avoid fights if I can help it)

@parrisisland1978

Thank you for the link.  I have been looking for that very thing.  I recently got back on keto and have been trying to figure out how to avoid the high carb MH meals on the trail.  

Also, thanks for the loadout info.

Yeah I'm stoked to see other peeps get into this stuff.  It is very rewarding to see something you actually made yourself.  I had much the same pathway, in that I got out, and wasn't quite happy with whatever I could find (or afford), so I started making stuff myself.  

As far as fit up and so forth.  That's just part of the process.  While I'm sure there are fancy programs that can figure most of this stuff out, part of the game is to figure it out yourself.  And that's just a lot of trial and error.  When I tried to duplicate my first harness and container, I spent nearly a whole 50 yd roll of cordura before I had a workable prototype.  Each flap or part was made 5-6 times until I got all the shrinkage and geometry right.  Things that look like straight lines end up being compound curves, in several dimensions.  So yeah, other than a fancy engineering degree, there's only one way of figuring it out.  You take your best guess, sew it all together, and figure out why it doesn't look or fit right.  

The highlight for me, was completely rebuilding a surplus MT-1XX military free fall rig.  The feeling of being under canopy, on that first jump, was unbelievable.

Wow! Thanks for the vote of confidence!  I’m not really looking to do this as a side hustle. I enjoyed making it for myself. I would be too critical of my work to sell it without being perfect.