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What Bullpups are as reliable or more reliable than a mid-level AR15? For HD/SHTF? Is it.... (Page 2 of 2)
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Originally Posted By tavorsterling: Cool, but I didn't get into this hobby because I wanted to save money. Sure if you want the cheapest thing go with an AR15. A collection built upon the cheapest things you can buy is a miserable collection. I, and imagine others, are happy to spend money to get different things we like. Collecting is a totally different ball game. Thats why I have a AUG. But if one is wanting a IAR setup probably not the best choice. Unless someone is just really into AUGs. Juice isn't worth the squeeze for me. I went Lima 6 for fun with a FRT. But I also own a MG so just different things to play with. My vote is buy them all. |
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder: I’ve never seen an answer to that question, and I’ve looked pretty hard. Do the Austrians ever get their 24” barrels really hot? Are there any photos of them with barrel bags (or somewhere to put a hot barrel that’s swapped out)? Another factor hurting the AUG for IAR/LMG use is the lack of available chrome lined barrels for it. I got one of the FN 24” barrels with the Ratworx/Manticore bipod back in 2017 and it’s chrome lined, but subsequent production is not. This goes to show that, although you might select a firearm model based upon its military pedigree, the actual product offered in your nation may have significant differences. The U.S. made stocks that were breaking would be another example. That may be resolved now, but Steyr never even made any official statement regarding the situation. It does shoot very smoothly with a 24” barrel and bipod though, and it’s easy to carry.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu_-AT7nPpkhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/13082/FF34C1B0-0F24-49A9-B12A-33655490CEEC-351552.JPG If you really don’t care about price, and want something for sustained fire, get something belt fed with multiple barrels.  That looked really smooth shooting. And on the whole barrel swapping note I think even the US military just disregarded the whole barrel swapping feature. EDIT: Will add that if op is wanting FRT capabilities in a bullpup think the AUG is the only game in town. Haven't seen one for the hellion and X95. |
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The AUG LMG also fires from an open bolt, along with a QD barrel, makes it a better LMG than a IAR or RPK, imho. I don't know if any countries ever adopted it, but it was intended to be a LMG. The RPK and IAR are different philosophies than the AUG LMG, as automatic rifles, so it's not a complete straight across comparison. It's like comparing a MG42 to a BAR and a Bren. All are "machine guns" but had different intended uses. Ultimately depends on how you define LMG, Light automatic rifle, etc. You could get a nato mag AUG and mod it to take quad mags like that one YouTuber did haha. Quad mags are cool, but they have been around for a century or so and ever really caught on, so probably would just run 40 round stick mags. You can run drums in bullpups too, but usually the decrease in reliability and bulk isn't worth it over stick mags. |
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Originally Posted By tavorsterling: The AUG LMG also fires from an open bolt, along with a QD barrel, makes it a better LMG than a IAR or RPK, imho. I don't know if any countries ever adopted it, but it was intended to be a LMG. The RPK and IAR are different philosophies than the AUG LMG, as automatic rifles, so it's not a complete straight across comparison. It's like comparing a MG42 to a BAR and a Bren. All are "machine guns" but had different intended uses. Ultimately depends on how you define LMG, Light automatic rifle, etc. You could get a nato mag AUG and mod it to take quad mags like that one YouTuber did haha. Quad mags are cool, but they have been around for a century or so and ever really caught on, so probably would just run 40 round stick mags. You can run drums in bullpups too, but usually the decrease in reliability and bulk isn't worth it over stick mags. I think the issue is that the IAR role was designed to replace the LMG role in a rifleman team, meaning the IAR and LMG role were equivalent. The Marines gave up their M249's for IAR rifles at the squad level. Then the decision was to roll out that the IAR to replace the other Riflemen positions, later, so effectively the only difference between a maneuver marine and the suppression marine is the 0311 or 0331 job code (and maybe more ammo). |
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Originally Posted By tavorsterling: I just installed a Jard trigger in my Aug and it makes it a really nice trigger. Haven't shot it yet, but excited. Not quite as good as a Jard WLVRN or geissele X95, but really close. Now that is sad to hear as I have both the WLVRN and SAR upgraded triggerpacks.. |
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Originally Posted By swampfoxoutdoors: That looked really smooth shooting. And on the whole barrel swapping note I think even the US military just disregarded the whole barrel swapping feature. EDIT: Will add that if op is wanting FRT capabilities in a bullpup think the AUG is the only game in town. Haven't seen one for the hellion and X95. Ive seen rumblings of "In development" For the Tavor and Hellion |
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Originally Posted By tavorsterling: The AUG LMG also fires from an open bolt, along with a QD barrel, makes it a better LMG than a IAR or RPK, imho. Originally Posted By tavorsterling: The AUG LMG also fires from an open bolt, along with a QD barrel, makes it a better LMG than a IAR or RPK, imho. I don't know if any countries ever adopted it, but it was intended to be a LMG. Interestingly, during the U.S. IAR trials, LWRC's entry switched between closed-bolt and open-bolt operation depending on whether the selector was currently set to SEMI or AUTO. (The German FG42 worked the same way in WWII.) FN submitted one that'd switch operation based on current temperature. Neither system was adopted for the HK M27 IAR though. The RPK and IAR are different philosophies than the AUG LMG, as automatic rifles, so it's not a complete straight across comparison. It's like comparing a MG42 to a BAR and a Bren. All are "machine guns" but had different intended uses. Same with Austria's MG74 (which is like an MG3 aka MG42). Had Austria adopted the AUG LMG or AUG HBAR, it would be their LMG/IAR while the MG74 would remain their 7.62 NATO GPMG, so not directly comparable. They fill different roles. Ultimately depends on how you define LMG, Light automatic rifle, etc. It all depends on how things are being defined, but I tend to agree with @FrozenIceman insofar as IAR/LMG weapons are generally used for the same role within a squad and therefore are usually directly comparable. If you've got an M249 that's pretty much the height of LMG capabilites (and weight) while your AUG LMG or HBAR is less capable for sustained fire, but would generally serve in the exact same role. M27 IAR vs M249 get compared all the time. AUG and M27 both offer greater first-round-hit probability compared to the M249 (and Uruguay actually uses their AUG HBARs like DMRs). As far as AUG vs RPK or IAR, if you've got a QD barrel, but no spare barrels then does it matter if the barrel can QD? No? Then direct comparison. lol You can run drums in bullpups too, but usually the decrease in reliability and bulk isn't worth it over stick mags. Originally Posted By swampfoxoutdoors: That looked really smooth shooting. And on the whole barrel swapping note I think even the US military just disregarded the whole barrel swapping feature. They still keep that feature around on the belt-feds. For a while SOCOM was running the MK46 Mod 0 which basically killed their QD barrel capability (because there was no attached handle to remove a hot barrel with) but I think they realized their mistake, as this was corrected with the MK46 Mod 1 a few years later. |
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Some people will surely scoff, but I'd go with the RDB for HD. Spend the money you saved buying it over the AUG/Tavor on a decent red dot and suppressor. I have well over 3k rounds through mine without issues other than in the very beginning with me screwing around will all the gas setting, so thats on me. If I had to pick one if I was jumping out of a helicopter to fight in some 3rd world shit hole, then yeah id go with the Aug or Tavor. But for HD, the RDB is plenty reliable enough. |
Doesn't mean that much to me to mean that much to you.
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Originally Posted By swampvol: Some people will surely scoff, but I'd go with the RDB for HD. Spend the money you saved buying it over the AUG/Tavor on a decent red dot and suppressor. I have well over 3k rounds through mine without issues other than in the very beginning with me screwing around will all the gas setting, so thats on me. If I had to pick one if I was jumping out of a helicopter to fight in some 3rd world shit hole, then yeah id go with the Aug or Tavor. But for HD, the RDB is plenty reliable enough. The Rdb is also my HD gun so dont feel alone
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: The Rdb is also my HD gun so dont feel alone I actually keep a supressed 8" 300blk with supers by my bed, but if I didnt have that then it would be the RDB. Compared to the others it is lighter, has a better trigger and supresses a lot better. And a plus over a shorty 5.56 AR is with it's 17" barrel I wouldnt feel the need for expensive soft points to get the job done when regular bulk m193 would work just fine. |
Doesn't mean that much to me to mean that much to you.
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AR15 owner / user since 1984. Tons of ARs have passed through my hands over the years. AUG owner / user since 1990. Probably have owned at least a dozen AUGs over the years. The AUG is arguably MORE reliable than a top tier AR15 (KAC or LMT). My experience with five personally owned Tavors, one personally owned FN2000, and some other randoms didn't yield the results I wanted. There are a lot of reasons to select an AUG over an AR15 especially as a civilian. The major argument against it is "buht i can getz AR partz in Z-POC at the local swap meet". Cool. The only actual downside of the AUG over an AR equipped with a SSA-E trigger is the AUG's trigger feel. The rest is really training related. You can get fast with mag loads, etc. |
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: I remember in the old Battlefield Las Vegas thread the Op mentioning how the AUG just keeps on going with nothing needing replacement. But again, this is just pure round count in a controlled environment without any rough handling of the rifle. I like the AUG because it stays VERY clean during firing. 200 rounds and it looks freshly cleaned and oiled. 20 rounds in my best AR and it is filthy. My only concern is durability during rough handling. I know what the AR can survive but Ive never seen the AUG thrown around. Id like to see a torture test where a typical AR and a new production AUG (and maybe other bullpups like Tavor etc) are drop tested side by side. You forgot about the 80s Steyr torture test demos and ad promos. I know there is a pic of an AUG shooting after coming out of water. There is a video of the AUG getting driven over by a truck. It is something like the Uzi advert. |
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: I remember in the old Battlefield Las Vegas thread the Op mentioning how the AUG just keeps on going with nothing needing replacement. But again, this is just pure round count in a controlled environment without any rough handling of the rifle. I like the AUG because it stays VERY clean during firing. 200 rounds and it looks freshly cleaned and oiled. 20 rounds in my best AR and it is filthy. My only concern is durability during rough handling. I know what the AR can survive but Ive never seen the AUG thrown around. Id like to see a torture test where a typical AR and a new production AUG (and maybe other bullpups like Tavor etc) are drop tested side by side. https://www.mediafire.com/file/r6xjht7gfczas1a/Australian_Army_AUG_Evaluation_Report_-_Complete%252C_OCR%2527d.pdf/file |
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: The Rdb is also my HD gun so dont feel alone Same, supressed RDB is my bump in the night gun, and actually my favorite rifle to shoot overall. If I had to go do serious social work in the field for six months...I'd take an AUG. My RDB has been totally reliable, but I just can't shake the feeling it's not as robust as an AUG. I really wish for Kel-Tec to come out with a Gen 2 with just a few tweaks. Seal the charging handle, add a dust cover to the ejection port. Maybe a more robust magazine release and fewer contacts with the barrel. |
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: I don't think that's something you can just assume. The U.S. alone has tens of millions of AR-15s in civilian hands, thousands of commercial ranges, training schools, rental fleets, and competitive shooters. Collectively, civilian shooters almost certainly put an enormous number of rounds downrange every year. Unless you have data comparing total military and civilian round counts, it's hard to argue that civilian use isn't comparable. Ukraine isn't Vietnam for small arms. The dominant killers are drones, artillery, and mines, not rifles. Unless a weapon is catastrophically unreliable, there's very little public reporting on how one service rifle performs versus another. The absence of detailed reports on the DT doesn't really tell us much...Seen Keltecs in some photos too.. Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: Originally Posted By voyager3: Like it or not, no amount of civilian use puts a comparable mileage on a comparable number of guns under comparable range of conditions. It's a great way to find and fix any teething problems. Do you think AR15 would be the workhorse it is today without the decades of Western militaries' institutional experience? With that said, I've read about some number of DTs making it to Ukraine, but unfortunately no details about the number, how they were used and how they performed. I don't think that's something you can just assume. The U.S. alone has tens of millions of AR-15s in civilian hands, thousands of commercial ranges, training schools, rental fleets, and competitive shooters. Collectively, civilian shooters almost certainly put an enormous number of rounds downrange every year. Unless you have data comparing total military and civilian round counts, it's hard to argue that civilian use isn't comparable. Ukraine isn't Vietnam for small arms. The dominant killers are drones, artillery, and mines, not rifles. Unless a weapon is catastrophically unreliable, there's very little public reporting on how one service rifle performs versus another. The absence of detailed reports on the DT doesn't really tell us much...Seen Keltecs in some photos too.. Only 12% of casualties are from small arms. That figure was before the mass adoption of drones so it’s probably less now. |
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Originally Posted By GaryT1776: AR15 owner / user since 1984. Tons of ARs have passed through my hands over the years. AUG owner / user since 1990. Probably have owned at least a dozen AUGs over the years. The AUG is arguably MORE reliable than a top tier AR15 (KAC or LMT). My experience with five personally owned Tavors, one personally owned FN2000, and some other randoms didn't yield the results I wanted. There are a lot of reasons to select an AUG over an AR15 especially as a civilian. The major argument against it is "buht i can getz AR partz in Z-POC at the local swap meet". Cool. The only actual downside of the AUG over an AR equipped with a SSA-E trigger is the AUG's trigger feel. The rest is really training related. You can get fast with mag loads, etc. lol yea, some people think they’ll be navigating some post apocalyptic earth like Caine from king fu. People overthink this stuff. Any modern assault style firearm from a reputable company is going to be good enough for 99.9% of situations. For HD, you’re looking at a very short event with maybe a few rounds. |
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: Ive seen rumblings of "In development" For the Tavor and Hellion Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: Originally Posted By swampfoxoutdoors: That looked really smooth shooting. And on the whole barrel swapping note I think even the US military just disregarded the whole barrel swapping feature. EDIT: Will add that if op is wanting FRT capabilities in a bullpup think the AUG is the only game in town. Haven't seen one for the hellion and X95. Ive seen rumblings of "In development" For the Tavor and Hellion @Odinforever2000 Any idea on which company? Been hoping for this since FRTs began rolling out. |
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Originally Posted By Citadel-SC: lol yea, some people think they’ll be navigating some post apocalyptic earth like Caine from king fu. People overthink this stuff. Any modern assault style firearm from a reputable company is going to be good enough for 99.9% of situations. For HD, you’re looking at a very short event with maybe a few rounds. Originally Posted By Citadel-SC: Originally Posted By GaryT1776: AR15 owner / user since 1984. Tons of ARs have passed through my hands over the years. AUG owner / user since 1990. Probably have owned at least a dozen AUGs over the years. The AUG is arguably MORE reliable than a top tier AR15 (KAC or LMT). My experience with five personally owned Tavors, one personally owned FN2000, and some other randoms didn't yield the results I wanted. There are a lot of reasons to select an AUG over an AR15 especially as a civilian. The major argument against it is "buht i can getz AR partz in Z-POC at the local swap meet". Cool. The only actual downside of the AUG over an AR equipped with a SSA-E trigger is the AUG's trigger feel. The rest is really training related. You can get fast with mag loads, etc. lol yea, some people think they’ll be navigating some post apocalyptic earth like Caine from king fu. People overthink this stuff. Any modern assault style firearm from a reputable company is going to be good enough for 99.9% of situations. For HD, you’re looking at a very short event with maybe a few rounds. 100%. The reality vs fantasy aspect of some people's mindset is amusing. Even the guy that has very high training round counts (I consider anything above about 800-1000 rounds a month = 10,000-12,000 a year high) will be able to source parts. Additionally, if you can afford $4500-6000 a year in training ammo you can afford to buy a $400 barrel, $330 bolt, etc. Lastly, just buy a second identical gun. Train with one and replace parts as needed. Zero the other one and hide in your Zombie Proof Bunker eating eBay MREs and watching Tremors. |
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Originally Posted By GaryT1776: 100%. The reality vs fantasy aspect of some people's mindset is amusing. Even the guy that has very high training round counts (I consider anything above about 800-1000 rounds a month = 10,000-12,000 a year high) will be able to source parts. Additionally, if you can afford $4500-6000 a year in training ammo you can afford to buy a $400 barrel, $330 bolt, etc. Lastly, just buy a second identical gun. Train with one and replace parts as needed. Zero the other one and hide in your Zombie Proof Bunker eating eBay MREs and watching Tremors. I agree with most of this...Except the cost of the barrel and bolt is firearm specific.. |
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Originally Posted By Actiondiver: PS90. It has been tested to 100,000 rounds & was still chugging along. Wieldable with one hand while tending injured, opening a door, etc. 50 rounds before you need a reload. Light enough to carry a long distance & mount an optic like the mini ACOGs. 5.7 is not a serious caliber for defensive use. |
| I owned the Tavor SAR and Aug . I still own the AUG. I did a down size of what I had in the collection. 1000+ rounds through both. Never a stoppage. I know not a lot of rounds through them. I don't blast. I plink. lol. Both are great for what they are. I personally would grab my Colt SoCom over either. I just handle it better. Lighter also. G2 super trigger. But I like my Tavor. I love my AUG. kippe yi ah. |
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Originally Posted By WarDawg: I owned the Tavor SAR and Aug . I still own the AUG. I did a down size of what I had in the collection. 1000+ rounds through both. Never a stoppage. I know not a lot of rounds through them. I don't blast. I plink. lol. Both are great for what they are. I personally would grab my Colt SoCom over either. I just handle it better. Lighter also. G2 super trigger. But I like my Tavor. I love my AUG. kippe yi ah. Colt SOCOM is a great AR. Different animal all together than the AUG. I've owned a bunch of both. |
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder: XM8 uses short stroke piston operation. It’s basically a G36. The G36 is extremely reliable. It’s plastic so it can catch fire when hot enough, but it still functions while on fire (until enough of it cooks that it gets out of alignment and can’t anymore). lol HK filmed a pretty impressive video showing this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTbTyFloelc3:11 is about where it fails. 900 rounds! The curious thing is that polymer is thermally nonconductive, so catching fire seems a rather unintuitive outcome. I have to wonder what specific material in its build profile ignited. |
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Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: The curious thing is that polymer is thermally nonconductive, so catching fire seems a rather unintuitive outcome. I have to wonder what specific material in its build profile ignited. |
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Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: The curious thing is that polymer is thermally nonconductive, so catching fire seems a rather unintuitive outcome. I have to wonder what specific material in its build profile ignited. Plastic is a thermal insulator. Plastic usually has a melt point before its burn point, however if you heat it super fast it won't have time to melt off. Plastic is a Hydrocarbon chain, I.E. made from oil. Carbon and Oxygen are the two primary ingredients needed to burn regular things. |
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I have two Augs that have been flawless for me and both are converted for wrong-handed shooting b/c I’m a southpaw. One has more rounds through it than the other. This thread got me thinking b/c my HD rifle is a mid-grade AR. It’s not even my suppressed lefty Stag SBR. I guess subconsciously I’m old fashioned or just basic. PS- I always have to be careful when bragging about how good the Augs are since one of them is in the range of the stock cracking fiasco. No signs yet so here’s hoping. |
What Bullpups are as reliable or more reliable than a mid-level AR15? For HD/SHTF? Is it.... (Page 2 of 2)
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