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Posted: 7/7/2024 11:10:08 AM EST
I am being defeated.
I picked up a 1981 Jeep CJ several years ago, and its been parked under my barn since I brought it home. I bought it as a non-running project, but it was supposedly running when it was previously parked. One of the first things I noticed when I got it home, the ignition switch on the steering column was bad. I *think* that's what got it parked originally, but I can't verify this. I went ahead and replaced the ignition assembly, verified it would turn the engine over, and pretty much got sidetracked on other projects. I've finally gotten motivated to try and get it running again, but it isn't going well. First issue I've run into, I'm having issues with the engine turning over just on battery power. Even with the addition of a jump back, its still sluggish, so I will probably have to either replace the starter or have it rebuilt. I've changed the starter solenoid and replaced the power cable to the starter itself, but didn't make much difference. Not that it matters much, even when I can get it spinning fast enough, I can't get it to fire. I've pulled the cap & rotor, and verified I have spark to all 6 cylinders, but can't get the engine to fire on starter fluid. I feel like I likely have a timing issue, but not sure how to get it back correctly timed. Looking at the pics below, I don't believe the distributor/vacuum timing advance is even facing in the correct orientation...which may be my problem. I've verified I have good compression on all 6 cylinders, from 170-180psi. Suggestions?  Attached File   
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Posted: 7/7/2024 11:16:06 AM EST
[#1]
ran when parked. famous last words.
 No shit, it ran just before you parked it?! anyways. is that a points distrubutor? check the points, probably corroded over and not opening. (i see 3 wires, so its probably electronic now) and what's the second hot wire for that's broken on the coil lead? quite the mess you have there judging by the wire condition, you better check your ground as well, may help your slow turnover. If not anything, pull all the plugs and let the starter spin the motor. give you a good idea on what's going on, and check spark easily. if it does fire up, you've got vacuum leaks galore, and your fuel line is....questionably safe |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 11:20:00 AM EST
[#2]
Move timing mark to TDC, pull dist cap, and see where the rotor is pointing.
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Posted: 7/7/2024 11:23:35 AM EST
[#3]
Did you pull the plugs and lube the cylinders before all this stuff? You are going to have some rust on the cylinder walls, some lubrication will help keep the damage to a dull roar. Starting fluid doesn't help, that dries out the cylinder and will eat up your rings in a hurry.
Might even be smart to static prime the oiling system. Not sure how you do that on this engine. Ditto to replacing the ground. Pull the ground strap, clean up the areas where it attaches on the engine and frame or firewall, replace with new. I would also go ahead and put a new points/condenser set in it as they are probably bad from age. Also, take the coil off and have it bench checked. It's not unusual to have a coil go bad.....weak ignition is a thing and it's possible you have enough to see spark but not enough energy to make spark under compression. Do you have a service manual? I would think you could set it up at TDC on #1, check the point gap and internal timing, and set it up with the rotor pointing at the correct spark plug wire, close enough to get it started. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 11:25:33 AM EST
[#4]
I'm not an expert but watch lots of will it run's.
Get #1 cylinder to top dead center by removing spark plug and turn engine until #1 is TDC. Look where rotor is pointing.Is it at #1? Bet rotor is pointing 180 degrees away. If so remove distributor and turn 180 degrees. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 11:26:29 AM EST
[#5]
Timing chain...
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Posted: 7/7/2024 11:29:15 AM EST
[#6]
Go to Jeepforum.com. There’s a huge subforum on CJ’s along with every other Jeep made. It was a huge asset to bringing my 86 CJ back to life.
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Posted: 7/7/2024 11:31:37 AM EST
[#7]
As mentioned check terminals and ground.
First thing I did on my cj after purchase. Pull out fuel pump, cap the hole and put an electric fuel pump on. Put new plug wires and plugs in. Change distributor to an electronic. Set to TDC and time it. Of course put a good in line fuel filter in. Rebuild carb or just get a new or built one . I bet it runs great |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 11:35:26 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Move timing mark to TDC, pull dist cap, and see where the rotor is pointing. This sounds to me like the quickest and simplest check to start with. Best to get it on #1 TDC and see if the rotor is pointing at the correct cylinder on the cap. Where your vacuum advance can is pointing in relation to pictures you see isn't that important as it's dependent on how the distributor gear is stabbed into the camshaft. When checking the position of the rotor I would also roll the engine back and forth to see if there is slop in the timing chain. If there is the rotor won't move for a few degrees after the balancer. That slop makes for cam timing issues and could indicate it's jumped a tooth on the timing gears. I'm not sure on a 258, but a lot of engines that era used phenolic gear teeth that deteriorate over time. Your compression figures seem to say this isn't an issue though! |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 11:52:00 AM EST
[#9]
If you’re going to check where the rotor is pointing with #1 at tdc you need to make sure it’s at tdc on the compression stroke. Remove the spark plug, rotate engine the correct direction while checking for air being pushed out of spark plug hole.
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Posted: 7/7/2024 12:18:13 PM EST
[#10]
Don't start changing parts and assume the starter is bad. Before doing anything turn it over by hand with the spark plugs out. If there is high resistance borescope the cylinders and see if they are rusted up. Check back after you have done that.
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Posted: 7/7/2024 1:12:58 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't start changing parts and assume the starter is bad. Before doing anything turn it over by hand with the spark plugs out. If there is high resistance borescope the cylinders and see if they are rusted up. Check back after you have done that. Before I started anything, I sprayed oil in all the cylinders and made sure I could turn it over with a breaker bar....no issues there. Motor turns over great with all the plugs removed. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 1:15:07 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Move timing mark to TDC, pull dist cap, and see where the rotor is pointing. I found TDC, I painted the mark white and have it lined up...  Attached File Attached File....and here is where the rotor is pointing:  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 1:27:39 PM EST
[#13]
I may be wrong but I think it should be pointing basically the opposite direction if you are a TDC on cylinder #1. Are you sure #1 is at TDC on the compression stroker?
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Posted: 7/7/2024 1:34:19 PM EST
[#14]
If i've got this right #1 cylinder is the first cylinder in front of the engine.
If thats the case your timing is off a lot. Loosen the hold down and turn the distributer counter clockwise 1 whole position. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 1:44:33 PM EST
[#15]
The first thing I do to get an old engine going is fill it up with ATF. I'll dump it right down the carb. Usually moisture gets in the cylinders in which the valves are open. If you soak it before you try and crank it, your going to do the least damage. This breaks up any rust and lubes up the rings. I usually fill it and keep topping it off. That atf will soak past the rings and get in the oil pan. Eventually, I pull the plugs and start rotating it by hand, adding more ATF, and making a mess all over the floor. Once I am happy everything is lubed up, I change the oil.
Since you've already cranked it, I would pull the plugs and squirt atf in the cylinders. Rotate it over by hand and stick your thumb over the #1spark plug hole. You can use the thumb technique to check compression on all 6. If you have any, odds are it's enough to run. When you feel compression on #1, line up the timing mark and pull the distributor cap. Check to make sure that the rotor is pointing at #1. That should get you close enough to get it to fire. You said that you had spark. Was that before your hiatus or after? If it sat for any amount of time, I'd check the points and verify spark again. I'd probably clean and set or replace them again anyway, if I hadn't done it. Fuel: Whatever is in the tank is bad. You don't want to run trash through your carb. Disconnect the fuel line and run it into a bucket. I always pull the carb and clean it up. You don't need to go crazy. I usually just pull the bowl, clean the needle, and clean everything I can get to from the outside. Spray carb cleaner in every hole you see and reinstall. Rig a temporary fuel solution or get a squirt bottle with two stroke fuel to bottle feed it. Assuming your battery is good, check your cables and connections, including those to the starter. Look up how to perform a voltage drop test. If it's still cranking slow, it may need a starter. This thing will start. They are super simple machines. You got this. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 1:54:32 PM EST
[#16]
It looks 30 degrees off. Loosen up the distributor and turn it clockwise until the rotor lines up with #1.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 1:58:54 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It looks 30 degrees off. Loosen up the distributor and turn it clockwise until the rotor lines up with #1. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/155324/1000014086_jpg-3260570.JPG Not sure there is enough to turn it 30 degrees off, might have to take distributor out and reposition it. Usually you can only get a couple of degrees by turning it. OP at one point was the distributor ever taken out? Yeah but if he can get it turned to #1 would be cool. But after looking at the pics, looks like it will swing over there, you can see the wires going to the distributor are tight like it was moved. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 2:04:03 PM EST
[#18]
Looking closer, your firing order is all jacked up. I think it should be 1 5 3 6 2 4. It's probably stamped on the intake.
Pull the wires and plug #1 into where the rotor is pointing and then reorder the wires properly. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 2:06:37 PM EST
[#19]
Or pull the distributor and start over. I am not sure what is proper but I always point #1 at the #1 cylinder.
You may try cranking it with the cap off and see if the rotor turns. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 2:07:31 PM EST
[#20]
How does it crank with the spark plugs in and no ignition?
If it spins normally, not the starter, but if ignition and fuel is slowing it down, timing. It doesn't matter where your rotor is pointing as long as it's pointing to the number 1 cylinder plug wire on the cap with engine at TDC. Good practice is to have the rotor pointing to cylinder 1 when installing a distributor. Wish I was closer, I'd go help you out. Love old Jeeps. BTW, no starting fluid or Brake cleaner. Use premix or plain gas to get it going. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 2:08:47 PM EST
[#21]
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Posted: 7/7/2024 2:08:55 PM EST
[#22]
Check the grounds . Block to chassis and battery to block and chassis
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Posted: 7/7/2024 2:11:30 PM EST
[#23]
Take all that stock ignition crap off, throw it in the garbage.
Get an HEI distributor/wires off eBay that has the jeep distributor gear already installed (this’ll save you quite a bit of diagnostics on the factory duraspark system and they’re like $100) literally a one wire hookup Verify that you’re going to time it correctly upon your installation of it You don’t even really “need” the vac advance on it at this point, worry about it later Run a heavy gauge ground from the battery to the frame, then to the engine block, bonus points for running another to the grill assembly. That’ll pretty much just rule out the inevitable turn signal grounding issues and radiator electrolysis issues (ask how I know) Enjoy a running jeep, your 5,000 other small issues will follow shortly after the first drive lol |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 2:30:34 PM EST
[#24]
Are you on TDC of compression or exhaust stroke. Assuming that your wires are on the cap wrong and the firing order diagram above is right it looks like it’s on the exhaust stroke.
To clarify the obvious, when we say the rotor should be pointing at #1, we mean #1 terminal on the cap, not at #1 cylinder. <<< Retired master auto mechanic |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 2:31:37 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I found TDC, I painted the mark white and have it lined up... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/15608/20240707_123905_jpg-3260532.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/15608/20240707_123907_jpg-3260534.JPG ....and here is where the rotor is pointing: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/15608/20240707_123917_jpg-3260536.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/15608/20240707_124005_jpg-3260538.JPG If you want, you can just remove the plug wires from the cap and reinstall them making cylinder #1 where your rotor bug is pointing to right now and reinstall the other wires accordingly to the firing order chart posted above for a 258 six. I'm guessing with the rotor bug being 180° off that the timing chain has slipped and they usually slip when you shut the engine off. Hence, ran when parked. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 2:32:17 PM EST
[#26]
All sound advice. Did 81 jeeps have a plastic valve cover? I had a 4.0 XJ eat the distributor gear once.
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Posted: 7/7/2024 2:32:50 PM EST
[#27]
Can't fix one of the simplest vehicles ever built? Avatar checks out....
 Just raggin' you Dawg fan. I just checked the pics from my '84. The vac advance can should be pointing to around the 4 o'clock position for starters. #1 plug wire should be in about the 6 o'clock position, both looking at it from the passenger side. So yeah, your timing is way off. As others have said, you also have bad fuel, a lifetime of chasing vacuum leaks and grounding issues. The solutions to the cables are found at Jeepcables.com. There used to be CJ pre-cut lines out there, but I only see kits for XJs now. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 3:10:40 PM EST
[#28]
Progress!
I repositioned the distributor, and was able to get I to pop off a couple times on starter fluid.  Attached FileI'm still having issues with getting it to turn over fast enough, though....and that's even with adding a jump box. I may try running a wire directly to the starter and bypassing the solenoid, not sure if it will make a difference. If I can get that sorted, I'll pull run a fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to an external tank....not sure how much gas is in the tank now, but I'm sure it's all bad. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 3:19:35 PM EST
[#29]
Timing too far advanced will make it hard to crank too. Good chance of it backfiring through the carb whil trying to get the timing right and causing a fire so be ready for that. Usually if the fuel source is in the intake you can just crank the engine more and suck the flame in and put it out. Don’t have a bunch of gas or starting fluid all over the outside of the darn /intake area.
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Posted: 7/7/2024 3:26:01 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Timing too far advanced will make it hard to crank too. Good chance of it backfiring through the carb whil trying to get the timing right and causing a fire so be ready for that. Usually if the fuel source is in the intake you can just crank the engine more and suck the flame in and put it out. Don’t have a bunch of gas or starting fluid all over the outside of the darn /intake area. ^^^^pay attention to this man. I almost burned up a 351 Ford once because if a backfire. Also, as others have said, check the ground strap. I made a lot of unnecessary repairs to my tractor once because of a bad ground strap. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 3:28:40 PM EST
[#31]
Best thing ever for the 258 is the HEI swap. Did it on my '79 cj5.
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Posted: 7/7/2024 4:37:19 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Progress! I repositioned the distributor, and was able to get I to pop off a couple times on starter fluid. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/15608/20240707_154500_jpg-3260646.JPG I'm still having issues with getting it to turn over fast enough, though....and that's even with adding a jump box. I may try running a wire directly to the starter and bypassing the solenoid, not sure if it will make a difference. If I can get that sorted, I'll pull run a fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to an external tank....not sure how much gas is in the tank now, but I'm sure it's all bad. Fresh Battery and fresh fuel for the win. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 4:51:52 PM EST
[#33]
Jason, the 258 sixes starters could get loaded with dirt and clay. The friction would cause a slow crank. Thought I needed a new starter, battery,etc. My go to mechanic pulled the starter, took it apart and knocked all the crap out and she never gave me any more problems.
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Posted: 7/7/2024 4:55:15 PM EST
[#34]
When you lined up the timing mark, were you on TDC? You had compression on #1 while you came up on the timing mark?
The wires are now about 180 out from where your rotor was, which is fine if you were TDC on the exhaust stroke before. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 5:12:28 PM EST
[#35]
Do you have a multimeter?
A voltage drop test is an easy way to find where you're loosing Vs. You just set it to DC voltage and put the terminal ends at two different points on the circuit. You can tell where the bad connection is. Start with one probe touching the post itself and the other to the terminal. Have someone crank it. You should see .2 Vs or less. Then move down the cable, checking different connections. Then do the ground side. If you find something over .2 clean and reinstall or solder. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 5:15:50 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Timing too far advanced will make it hard to crank too. Good chance of it backfiring through the carb whil trying to get the timing right and causing a fire so be ready for that. Usually if the fuel source is in the intake you can just crank the engine more and suck the flame in and put it out. Don’t have a bunch of gas or starting fluid all over the outside of the darn /intake area. We played around with it a little more, and it did backfire out of the carb a couple of times. I still need to troubleshoot the timing, but it's definitely closer than before. In the meantime, I'll check the ground strap and go ahead and pull the starter. Looking through my extra parts, I found a couple extra starters...worst case, I can try the other one and see if it does the same.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 5:34:18 PM EST
[#37]
Keep at it, shes a keeper for sure.
Don't be worried once it fires up and only shows like 5-10 psi oil pressure. That is plenty for that 4.2. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 5:52:23 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: on the factory duraspark system check the back of the duraspark box and see if the potting material is smooth or "bubbled". if bubbled, either do the swap to HEI ( a good move), or get a replacement module. the bubbles generally show them as bad, or will soon be bad. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 5:54:43 PM EST
[#39]
What's all needed to convert over to an HEI system?
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Posted: 7/7/2024 5:58:40 PM EST
[#40]
Are you POSITIVE the distributor isn’t 180 out?
Popping up into intake with no-run is classic symptom of this. Because spark is firing during cam overlap TDC cycle and NOT the compression TDC cycle. This lights off the intake track fuel and NOT the fuel in compressed cylinder |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 6:13:14 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's all needed to convert over to an HEI system? about a $100 online for a complete, ready to run dizzy. Don't forget new plug wires. also- fun fact about the old Ford starters... the body is the same, so a replacement is as close as a nose cone swap! I have several CJs including 2 that have the old Buick odd-fire V6 and 3 with the 258 |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 6:39:15 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: about a $100 online for a complete, ready to run dizzy. Don't forget new plug wires. also- fun fact about the old Ford starters... the body is the same, so a replacement is as close as a nose cone swap! I have several CJs including 2 that have the old Buick odd-fire V6 and 3 with the 258 Does his model fall under the ones that benefit from the Nutter mod? If so, might as well do that too. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 7:34:26 PM EST
[#43]
probably not. My 82 model 7 was a non electric carb model. I replaced the Carter carbs on my 258s due to just being worn out. $84 from scamazon.
edit to add- my 83 cj5 was electric carb, so was the 85 model 7. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 7:36:22 PM EST
[#44]
Stop the starting fluid
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Posted: 7/7/2024 7:52:03 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not an expert but watch lots of will it run's. Get #1 cylinder to top dead center by removing spark plug and turn engine until #1 is TDC. Look where rotor is pointing.Is it at #1? Bet rotor is pointing 180 degrees away. If so remove distributor and turn 180 degrees. Top dead center ON THE COMPRESSION STROKE. The piston also goes to TDC on the exhaust stroke. Finger over the plug hole and have someone "bump" the starter until pressure is felt, then line up "0" on the timing marks. At that point, the distributor rotor should be point at the #1 terminal in the cap. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 8:28:32 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Top dead center ON THE COMPRESSION STROKE. The piston also goes to TDC on the exhaust stroke. Finger over the plug hole and have someone "bump" the starter until pressure is felt, the line up "0" on the timing marks. At that point, the distributor rotor should be point at the #1 terminal in the cap. |
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Posted: 7/9/2024 11:40:25 AM EST
[#47]
If you do the HEI swap, a lot of those chinese distributors have bad distributor gears on them that will really screw stuff up, so be aware of that before you start throwing chinese shit on there.
I've kept the original distributor on all of my CJ's, done what used to be the TFI upgrade, that is also called the "Team Rush" upgrade. Basically a hotter coil, bigger cap, better wires, and you get the same benefits of HEI without having to swap the distributor to some questionable chinese POS. https://www.jeepforum.com/threads/teamrush.669377/ Cheap, uses local auto parts store stuff that can easily be replaced in the future if needed (if you have problems with that chinese HEI, where are you going to get replacement parts?) The factory duraspark modules tend to be ok, but if you lose one, do NOT buy a parts store replacement. Get an HEI module (again, cheap, reliable, available everywhere) Unfortunately, looks like Jeephammers old "junkyardgenius" website is gone. https://www.jeepforum.com/threads/stealth-hei-module.682291/ I think once you get your timing right you'll be fine. CJ-8.com is the only Jeep forum I visit anymore. It's still old school CJ guys, where Jeepforum got bought out by vertical scope and went downhill. |
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Posted: 7/9/2024 11:49:49 AM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does his model fall under the ones that benefit from the Nutter mod? If so, might as well do that too. |
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Posted: 7/9/2024 1:09:18 PM EST
[#49]
Can't help you unless I know for sure (as others have posted) that you're on the compression stroke. You have not said yet that you were. Remove spark plug from #1, place thumb/finger over spark plug hole while turning engine over. You'll know when you get the compression stroke. Use your painted white line to put the engine at TDC (top dead center) of the COMPRESSION STROKE.
Just putting the engine at TDC won't help you. It must be on the COMPRESSION STROKE. |
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Posted: 7/9/2024 1:14:51 PM EST
[#50]
I had an 85 CJ7 loved it and hated it.
Money pit. |
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