User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:33:35 AM EST
[#1]
First, and most important, glad you weren't seriously hurt.
Second, it really does look like someone took a dremel to the feed ramp of that barrel. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:34:40 AM EST
[#2]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Always thought a powerhouse like a 10mm would be better in a steel framed 1911 type pistol. Agreed, the 10mm belongs in a steel framed pistol... OP, I hope you do send in the 'remains' to Glock for inspection, I'd like to hear their thoughts on the feedramps... Like the early Delta's that cracked? Like the Witness that cracks? This is an ammo issue, not a gun issue. DT is producing loads that are not safe in early G20's. mines never cracked.. and its from 87 ish. So what exactly are you saying? Delta's cracking with hot 10mm loads is well documented. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:35:58 AM EST
[#3]
Quoted:
Quoted:
so the issue is clearly DoubleTap ammo It wouldn't terribly surprise me if it came down to that. I just can't understand why people buy hyper-velocity ammo loaded to insane pressure levels and run them through their gun thinking it will magically cause the bad guy to explode. [ETA] It never seems to occur to them that bad things can happen when you push the envelope like that. I've called the Speer folks a time or two to get their input on the acceptable range of velocities for the Gold Dot, i.e., at what speed, hi/low, can it be relied on to expand as designed. I wonder what a call to Nosler would turn up regarding this from the DT site: Caliber : 10mm Bullet : 135gr. Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point. Ballistics : 1600fps / 767 ft.lbs. - Glock 20 The 1600fps is in excess of what Nosler recommends. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:36:37 AM EST
[#4]
The original barrel looks like it was throated out by hand.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:37:00 AM EST
[#5]
Quoted:
Someone dicked with that feed ramp. Someone. I agree, it sure looks like a polish job gone wrong to me. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:37:08 AM EST
[#6]
I'm having trouble reading your font.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:37:13 AM EST
[#7]
An excellent Kaboom story! I've had case failures before, but never due to an unsupported chamber (outside of an opening early CZ V22). That is pretty dramatic!
I've never seen such a good comparative example of old versus new Glock barrels. Bet you'll be flinching for a while! |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:37:29 AM EST
[#8]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Always thought a powerhouse like a 10mm would be better in a steel framed 1911 type pistol. Agreed, the 10mm belongs in a steel framed pistol... OP, I hope you do send in the 'remains' to Glock for inspection, I'd like to hear their thoughts on the feedramps... Like the early Delta's that cracked? Like the Witness that cracks? This is an ammo issue, not a gun issue. DT is producing loads that are not safe in early G20's. The early Delta's did suffer stress cracks but once the rail section above the slide stop was removed the cracking issue disappeared... I'd surmise it allowed the weapon the ability to flex, but either way, the DoubleTap is indeed nuclear grade boom... So is it reasonable to assume that for one of these early Delta's, super hot loads like DT makes is unsafe or might damage the gun? That's all I'm saying, DT is making ammo that's NOT safe to fire in all the pistols chambered in 10mm.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:38:29 AM EST
[#9]
So you intentionally shot a weapon that you had a very good idea that was unsafe, and was surprised it kBoomed on you??? If you're going to try and blow up a gun, use a damn Ransom Rest.
Yeah, |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:40:41 AM EST
[#10]
Quoted:
That was close to really, really bad. Glock strikes again... All the other brands have incidents too. As the guy says, its probably due to bad ammo. You think another pistol won't KB with ammo too hot ? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:41:03 AM EST
[#11]
why do people even bother with 10mm? For CCW or home defense a .230 gr .45 +p Ranger T will get the job done. Huge expansion great penetration, easy to control and .45 auto is cheap compared to 10mm
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:44:26 AM EST
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Always thought a powerhouse like a 10mm would be better in a steel framed 1911 type pistol. Agreed, the 10mm belongs in a steel framed pistol... OP, I hope you do send in the 'remains' to Glock for inspection, I'd like to hear their thoughts on the feedramps... Like the early Delta's that cracked? Like the Witness that cracks? This is an ammo issue, not a gun issue. DT is producing loads that are not safe in early G20's. The early Delta's did suffer stress cracks but once the rail section above the slide stop was removed the cracking issue disappeared... I'd surmise it allowed the weapon the ability to flex, but either way, the DoubleTap is indeed nuclear grade boom... So is it reasonable to assume that for one of these early Delta's, super hot loads like DT makes is unsafe or might damage the gun? That's all I'm saying, DT is making ammo that's NOT safe to fire in all the pistols chambered in 10mm. I can't disagree, the early 10mm's were subject to damage due to their rail not cut out and a DT round might indeed cause damage. Later versions of the Delta with the cut out don't seem to show the same incidence of cracks. My personal Delta is only an example of one but it is a later version with the cut and is running strong with near 1k through it, but I admit, I handload and I'm not 'quite' at DT levels... 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:44:41 AM EST
[#13]
No need for a 10mm except for animals and people in cars.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:44:53 AM EST
[#14]
You're a whole lot more adventurous than I am. If I ever had a piece of brass bulged like the one in your picture, I would have never fired that load in that chamber again. Not being critical of you, just a statement of fact.
Jane |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:47:04 AM EST
[#15]
glad you werent hurt worse
your orig barrel looks like it was worked on @ some point. i'd pull some of the dbl tap ammo & see what load they have.... my thoughts are its a brass issue or they are too hot. i shoot GA & reloaded ammo & never had an issue...other than some brass bulged, but a lot less than yours. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:48:05 AM EST
[#16]
Holy shit! Wow, glad you are ok! Has any ne seen any problems with the third gen G20's ? I got one in my nightstand drawer with DT ammo...shit. Gonna remove it now...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:48:33 AM EST
[#17]
Quoted:
why do people even bother with 10mm? For CCW or home defense a .230 gr .45 +p Ranger T will get the job done. Huge expansion great penetration, easy to control and .45 auto is cheap compared to 10mm Less holdover at 100 yards plus. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:48:39 AM EST
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Always thought a powerhouse like a 10mm would be better in a steel framed 1911 type pistol. Agreed, the 10mm belongs in a steel framed pistol... OP, I hope you do send in the 'remains' to Glock for inspection, I'd like to hear their thoughts on the feedramps... Like the early Delta's that cracked? Like the Witness that cracks? This is an ammo issue, not a gun issue. DT is producing loads that are not safe in early G20's. mines never cracked.. and its from 87 ish. So what exactly are you saying? Delta's cracking with hot 10mm loads is well documented. shitty double spring design (total spring weight was too light and it beats it self apart), swapped that out and never had an issue. thats with all the norma hot loads I could find and hot loads I still run threw her. Also Colts QC at the time was shit. So a lot of stuff went out half assed. Bad fire control parts, rough machining and almost in spec parts. On my DE I need up replacing almost everything but Frame/slide/barrel and grips. and she's getting ready for a new coat of ceracote in FDE. maybe ill post pics when she is done. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:49:22 AM EST
[#19]
Sorry about what happened, thanks for posting it and informing us.. I have a Gen3 20, AND... a bunch of DT ammo.... time to get rid if the DT ammo.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:49:41 AM EST
[#20]
Just for reference my gen 3 Glock 20 Barrel made last september.
  |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:49:45 AM EST
[#21]
Quoted:
why do people even bother with 10mm? For CCW or home defense a .230 gr .45 +p Ranger T will get the job done. Huge expansion great penetration, easy to control and .45 auto is cheap compared to 10mm 10mm introduced me to the joys of reloading. But your point still stands. Reloaded .45ACP < reloaded 10mm. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:49:45 AM EST
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
so the issue is clearly DoubleTap ammo It wouldn't terribly surprise me if it came down to that. I just can't understand why people buy hyper-velocity ammo loaded to insane pressure levels and run them through their gun thinking it will magically cause the bad guy to explode. [ETA] It never seems to occur to them that bad things can happen when you push the envelope like that. Didn't see that Double Tap publishes PSI on their rounds. The original (Norma) loads were pretty hot (40,000 CUP....didn't give it in PSI). SAAMI specs are 37,500 psi max for 10mm and 35,000 for 40SW (most modern 10mm loads don't approach the max...at least from feel as compared to the original Norma or Win. Silvertips). Have to wonder if Double Tap is using the oldest loads as their 'safe' max. AFARR |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:49:49 AM EST
[#23]
Wow... I can't get over that bulged brass. I've never seen one that far bulged.
Holy fuck. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:50:12 AM EST
[#24]
For the record, I'm not implying DoubleTap's ammo was the cause.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:51:36 AM EST
[#25]
Quoted:
Wow... I can't get over that bulged brass. I've never seen one that far bulged. Holy fuck. That was the worst of the worst. Not typical, but it was fired from that gun. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:51:43 AM EST
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
so the issue is clearly DoubleTap ammo It wouldn't terribly surprise me if it came down to that. I just can't understand why people buy hyper-velocity ammo loaded to insane pressure levels and run them through their gun thinking it will magically cause the bad guy to explode. [ETA] It never seems to occur to them that bad things can happen when you push the envelope like that. look up the original specs for 10mm ammo. the original Norma stuff was pretty damned hot. the factory 10mm ammo you can get now sucks balls, except for Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, CorBon and a couple of others. the factory Glock barrels are not fully supported like they should be. most people with a Glock 10mm swap barrels for a Storm Lake(my favorite) or KKM with a fully supported chamber so we can shoot 10mm ammo the way it was designed to be. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:52:53 AM EST
[#27]
I don't even know what to say, you luckily discovered signs that the brass stopped just shy of rupture and causing a catastrophic failure of the weapon and you decide that loading the rounds into an unsupported chamber and risking permanent disability at the very least to your hands to what?
See if what you already knew to be true was true. If you heard the ice on a frozen pond cracking under you would bounce on it to verify the fact? 
It sucks that your gun is ruined but I know you must realize that you got off easy. Do the world a favor and crush that fucked up barrel. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:56:10 AM EST
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Always thought a powerhouse like a 10mm would be better in a steel framed 1911 type pistol. Agreed, the 10mm belongs in a steel framed pistol... OP, I hope you do send in the 'remains' to Glock for inspection, I'd like to hear their thoughts on the feedramps... Like the early Delta's that cracked? Like the Witness that cracks? This is an ammo issue, not a gun issue. DT is producing loads that are not safe in early G20's. mines never cracked.. and its from 87 ish. So what exactly are you saying? Delta's cracking with hot 10mm loads is well documented. Colt Commanders in 9mm and 45 also cracked, as did Colt Gov't in all calibers. the square corners in the top of the slide stop cutout are just stress risers waiting to fracture. this is why Colt and many other 1911 companies now cut the rail bridge out. it wasn't just Delta's cracking. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 10:56:41 AM EST
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Looks like you'll be sending your Glock back to Glock, after all? Anyhow, I'm a reloader and I've read reports of guys weighing Double Tap brass and finding it to be a good deal lighter (less metal in critical areas?) than other factory brands. You can probably google it. After seeing deformations, once, maybe twice, I would have called it a day. Speed (pressure) kills. Chris If DoubleTap's brass is light or thin, and they are loading it to max pressure, it would tend to implicate them instead of Glock. They are known for loading very hot rounds. Since there is only a max pressure threshold to contend with, as long as their ammo meets this SAAMI threshold in their testing protocols, then they're GTG. Here's where the problem comes in with running at the 'red line'. All guns (barrels) are different and we're not shooting in a controlled enviroment. Ammo sits in the sun while at the range, air temps spike, barrels might have more fouling inside, bullet diameters aren't uniform, lead hardness isn't always the same, brass might have a microscopic weak spot in the web area, all sorts of things come into play, in potentially creating higher than normal pressure levels. I've reloaded ~4000 rounds for my 1991 G-22 40 cal, some of it...crazy hot loads, but I generally don't load my ammo to the Nth degree and DT seems to pride themselves on doing just this. On top of this, you were asked to send the weapon back for inspection and you failed to do so, so if the barrel was the culprit (way under supported chamber) than it's ultimately on you, in my opinion. Glad you weren't more seriously hurt. Chris |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:00:57 AM EST
[#30]
Can those of you with an early 2nd generation G20 do me a favor and post a photo of your feed ramp / chamber?
Thanks! |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:03:24 AM EST
[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Someone dicked with that feed ramp. Someone. I found a photo of another 2nd generation G20 barrel that looked identical. While it is possible the dealer sold me a used gun as a new one, I believe it was new. And I believe the barrel came from the factory that way. As much as I hate Glocks, I have to wonder about that feed ramp. It doesn't look "factory" to me and if it is, I'd be very concerned about what is going on at Glock now. Does anyone have a Glock of the same generation and caliber that they would be willing to take pics of their feed ramp and a round in the chamber like the OP did for comparison? To the OP, document everything that happened and take as many pics of that gun as you can from every angle before contacting Glock. Then you will need to document everything that Glock tells you. Like I said, I hate Glock but that feed ramp doesn't look factory. It looks milled and someone didn't polish it at all. In any event, this is why I prefer steel or aluminum frame guns. they hold up much better to this kind of situation than plastic does. Glad you only suffered minor injuries OP. As others said, it could have been much worse. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:04:29 AM EST
[#32]
Quoted:
No need for a 10mm except for animals and people in cars. So it is a perfect South Florida round. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:04:35 AM EST
[#33]
Thank you for your honesty.
DT owes you. Glock will be kind. I own 3 9mm glocks love them. I have a g21 too. I shoot 10mm out of a after market Barrel. I would never have fired a Double Tap brand if I had previously seen that bulge. Glad you are OK. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:07:01 AM EST
[#34]
Holy crap, glad you didn't get hurt too bad.
Is that DoubleTap 10mm loaded hotter than normal? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:08:58 AM EST
[#35]
Quoted:
No need for a 10mm except for animals and people in cars. 10mm is perfect round for possum and anteaters. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:09:03 AM EST
[#36]
Quoted: Colt Commanders in 9mm and 45 also cracked, as did Colt Gov't in all calibers. the square corners in the top of the slide stop cutout are just stress risers waiting to fracture. this is my Colt and many other 1911 companies now cut the rail bridge out. it wasn't just Delta's cracking. When you have that many manufacturers have failures in their guns with one caliber, that is what I would call a "hint". |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:10:39 AM EST
[#37]
Quoted:
Can those of you with an early 2nd generation G20 do me a favor and post a photo of your feed ramp / chamber blow yourselves up, then post pics? Thanks! |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:11:02 AM EST
[#38]
Sorry to see this happened and glad you didn't get hurt worse than you did.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:11:31 AM EST
[#39]
Why in God's name would put a barrel back in that gun that you had any doubts about?
And why didn't you send it back in the first place? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:16:30 AM EST
[#40]
Glad you are okay. Seriously.
Please tell you were wearing protective eyewear. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:17:05 AM EST
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Colt Commanders in 9mm and 45 also cracked, as did Colt Gov't in all calibers. the square corners in the top of the slide stop cutout are just stress risers waiting to fracture. this is my Colt and many other 1911 companies now cut the rail bridge out. it wasn't just Delta's cracking. When you have that many manufacturers have failures in their guns with one caliber, that is what I would call a "hint". A hint? That you are boldly sailing towards the place on the map that features a frisky whale or Kraken? A place shrouded in the Fog of Awesome? A fabled land of mist and lore- a place that (those who have visited) call 10mmatopia? Anyhoo, OP how old is your recoil spring? Is it a factory assembly? I have never been too impressed with the chamber support on my G20 and I suspect the gun is undersprung. Good to hear you weren't seriously injured. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:21:16 AM EST
[#42]
Quoted:
I'm having trouble reading your font. Dude, chill. OP just had a KB. He cant hear, thats why he is yelling! Glad you weren't seriously hurt OP. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:22:52 AM EST
[#43]
Quoted:
Just for reference my gen 3 Glock 20 Barrel made last september. that barrel looks fine. i'd shoot double tap in it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:23:04 AM EST
[#44]
Out of curiosity...
WhyTF weren't you wearing some gloves when you did this? (known likely defective firearm and a tendency to KB) Glad you weren't too jacked up because of it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:27:29 AM EST
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Colt Commanders in 9mm and 45 also cracked, as did Colt Gov't in all calibers. the square corners in the top of the slide stop cutout are just stress risers waiting to fracture. this is my Colt and many other 1911 companies now cut the rail bridge out. it wasn't just Delta's cracking. When you have that many manufacturers have failures in their guns with one caliber, that is what I would call a "hint". it wasnt just one caliber, it was all calibers. I've been cutting that slide stop bridge out of customers guns for 25+ years. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:28:52 AM EST
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Colt Commanders in 9mm and 45 also cracked, as did Colt Gov't in all calibers. the square corners in the top of the slide stop cutout are just stress risers waiting to fracture. this is my Colt and many other 1911 companies now cut the rail bridge out. it wasn't just Delta's cracking. When you have that many manufacturers have failures in their guns with one caliber, that is what I would call a "hint". A hint? That you are boldly sailing towards the place on the map that features a frisky whale or Kraken? A place shrouded in the Fog of Awesome? A fabled land of mist and lore- a place that (those who have visited) call 10mmatopia? Anyhoo, OP how old is your recoil spring? Is it a factory assembly? I have never been too impressed with the chamber support on my G20 and I suspect the gun is undersprung. Good to hear you weren't seriously injured. get a 24# recoil spring for it |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:30:32 AM EST
[#47]
Interesting, I bought my G20 back in 91-92(?) S/N UT4xxUS and the barrel looks like your original one, with the two relief cuts on the sides of the chamber.
I have never fired Double tap ammo thru it but have never had a case bulge at all, it was sent back in late '93 for the safety upgrade. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:33:05 AM EST
[#48]
Quoted:
so you put back in a barrel that was unsupported, and knowing that fired it? WOW just WOW.. This! you realized it truely was defective then decided to shoot it anyway. wwwttffff |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:36:18 AM EST
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Colt Commanders in 9mm and 45 also cracked, as did Colt Gov't in all calibers. the square corners in the top of the slide stop cutout are just stress risers waiting to fracture. this is my Colt and many other 1911 companies now cut the rail bridge out. it wasn't just Delta's cracking. When you have that many manufacturers have failures in their guns with one caliber, that is what I would call a "hint". A hint? That you are boldly sailing towards the place on the map that features a frisky whale or Kraken? A place shrouded in the Fog of Awesome? A fabled land of mist and lore- a place that (those who have visited) call 10mmatopia? Anyhoo, OP how old is your recoil spring? Is it a factory assembly? I have never been too impressed with the chamber support on my G20 and I suspect the gun is undersprung. Good to hear you weren't seriously injured. I agree that the G20 is undersprung. I was having some mild case-bulging issues with Silvertips and 155-grain DoubleTap in a factory barrel. I replaced the factory setup with a stronger recoil spring and a steel guide rod, and the problem went away. I suspect the slightly longer dwell time lets the pressure drop just enough before the gun starts to unlock. I've fired very hot Buffalo Bore 10mm though the gun as it's sprung now, with absolutely no issues. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2011 11:38:37 AM EST
[#50]
I've had a number of glock-aide drinkers tell me their gun buldges brass. Apparently "Glock perfection" involves bulged brass due to oversized feedramps. oversided feedramps make a pistol more reliable but there is a limit to what gap the brass case will span before it bulges. BULGED BRASS IS BAD NEWS Brass flows like putty under load, that's why you can form brass for wildcat rifle cartridges by fireforming. If your brass is pregnant looking, then don't shoot the gun. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
