Called my friend that works at a Toyota dealer. He said the heater break is common, it's a motor for the air controller. It's not very expensive but I'll have to tear down the paneling in the rear to fix it. I've had the same Nissan Altima for 16 years with the only major repair being the exhaust manifold which I replaced, and the only other issues have been an O2 sensor that went bad. Also the paint sucks on it, but it's never left me sitting (twice) like the Sequoia did.

I'm not suggesting that Toyota currently has the capacity to produce Tundras that the big three has.  I'm simply saying capacity was not the cause of Tundra's decline this year.  With additional capacity for Tacoma in Mexico, San Antonio could be retooled for Tundra only now but the demand isn't there.

ETA... Toyota will never have the leftover prior models of the big three.  They are much more efficient in adjusting production to demand as well as forecasting.

Two Cherokees at my house.

The Tundra went from 118,258 to 111,673. A difference that small could be due to any number of things that have nothing to do with consumer demand.

Or maybe some of those 6,500 people decided to move to a competitor or wait for the new generation truck that was rumored to arrive for 2021.

Either way, I doubt Toyota is bothered.

Toyota is always bothered when they miss a forecast and they forecasted flat Tundra sales for 2019.

The next generation Tundra won't be out until winter of 2021.  That's almost two years away.

We love our nissan altima's, maxima's, Honda civic and Toyota rav 4. The only American vehicles I would consider buying is a ram truck as long as the wiring is made better then it was or a Ford escape. The rest of American cars can fuck right off.

Please.
They're not even getting real leather interior.
What you neglect, the primary culprit is .gov regulations and mandates.
Know what costs REAL money? 87 air bags.
Traction and stability control. All that nonsense driver bullshit.

Keep reaching out for more .gov, we pay for it.
It's not relative for inflation, you'd be naive if you think so.

We keep the bullshit up of appeasing the lowest common denominator, lowering the bar for those who shouldn't have a license, and handicap those who can in favor of those who cant. Essentially enforcing liberals equality upon everyone via pampers and training wheels into adulthood...

You'd be out right ignorant to think a 50-60k "fully loaded" truck has 50-60k worth of value.
Traction and stability control = $ to develop test and implement.
Air bags = $

Ditch the nanny state fuckery, perhaps a 50k dollar truck would have Real leather interior with Real steel bodies that don't rot out in 5 years or less for folks in road salt states.

I hold nothing but contempt for any shit head that defends .gov regulations and mandates, and causes manufacturers to pass the Fucking on to We the Consumer.
If someone wants the non driver bullshit? They can pay for it.
If someone wants 87 cabin air bags? They can pay for it.
ABS lane management active cruise the works.
You want it? You pay for it.
50k for a new "leather" half ton.
Cut the hog rings on the seat cover peel that leather seat cover. I bet it says vinyl/leatherette.
That isn't value. That's false advertising and cost savings where costs shouldn't be cut in order to meet .gov regulations and mandates.
We absolutely could build vehicles with real steel bodies and real leather interiors.
The weight savings from all the bullshit modules and harnesses and various sensors that would typically be on CAN/BUS networks can be traded for real steel bodies. Possibly undercoated from the factory as well.
That's value.

Not the chintzy shit they've been doing. I demand better I do.
I also don't support liberal ideology what so ever.

I used to drive at and above the Posted speed limit in snow storms. Not my problem others couldnt. Yet. My skills and abilities are handicapped to appease those non driving fucks, cunting and crying for more .gov regulations and mandates. It's equality in action.
My skills and abilities were handicapped because of preprogrammed parameters the truck thinks it could drive better than me?

I had to pay to tune that shit out. Chevy dealer couldn't disable it. I was livid.

You go and ditch that bullshit, you free up alot of expenses that are passed onto we the consumer whether we wanted the bullshit or not is irrelevant. .gov says YOU MUST or pay fines. Or not be allowed to sell vehicles/a particular model.
Because we said so.

Stop lending credibility to commies. Stop lowering the bar. Stop appeasing the lowest common denominator. Demand better.

I’m guess people figure that if they’re going to pay 60 months worth of payments for a vehicle, might as well get something they like.

Relax.

It’s just a vehicle.

I recently rented a Nissan Altima. Not a bad car but I wouldn't buy one. On the highway it was a good ride and wanted to go fast. Around town it seemed under powered and the transmission was notchy and jumped around a lot. The 42 mpg for my whole trip was nice though.

Must be hell living in Florida having to yell at all those clouds.

Nope. It's not "just a vehicle." It's the principle. Especially not when there's arbitrary expenses added and people's hard earned money involved.
Paying more and getting less. That's not value...
That nanny state shit? Literally is liberals equality in action. And arbitrary expenses to be factored for.
Add corporate bean counters cutting costs.
Sure you might get the creature comforts. But longevity? Value? Where's the value in "leather interior" when it's vinyl?
Where's the value in thin gauge body panels that rot out in road salt states in 5 years or less?
Where's the value in plastic all the things?

What liberal regulations have done to automanufacturers would be the equivalent of making the athletic kids wear weight belts because the fat kids can't run or jump as high and far as the athletic kids can. Yay. Everyone's equally worthless. Lowest common denominator appeased.

If I manufactured cars and trucks? I'd tell .gov to piss up a rope and try to shut my operations down.
If .gov wants that bullshit in vehicles that my consumers want? .gov can pay for them.

What clouds? It was sunny and 80 today

Vehicles built today are more reliable than they have ever been by any metric. People are more than willing to pay for luxury vehicles at nearly any markup.. Manufacturers offer luxury cars with fake leather because their market research says consumers want them.

A new 2020 Chevy spark is $13220
a 1990 Geo Metro was $11807 new adjusted for inflation.

A lot of emissions and safety regulation is the last 30 years yet only $1400 difference in price.

Attached File


Rows and rows of unsold Nissans taking up the infield, parking areas, and grass surrounding the old Nashville Superspeedway. The other side is full of them almost to the fence.

Entry level cars and trucks meet all the same government standards as the luxury trims, and they don't cost $87k.

*drops mic*

What percentage of cars sold in 2019 came with a manual trans?

Let me guess, you bought a Tundra?

Sorry dude that things an overpriced dinosaur.

That's because Ford isnt afraid to take chances.
They really are the leaders In the US market.

Doesn't each dealership have their own "holding" lot or rather distribution center?

The entire area surrounding the track is full of cars, and more keep being added daily. It didn’t have that many cars a few months ago.

probably less than 5%

It's the worst junkyard ever!

1 in 20 isn't bad. I know we were at about 6% a couple years ago, so hopefully this will hold steady.

Bending down to get into or load a car is for the birds.

See also: young people hate minivans.

You're forgetting something... 87% of all sedans ever built have/had shitty handling.

It wasn't until the last year that Toyota finally turned the corner and asked what if the Corolla and Camry didn't handle like ass, and most other companies never got there.

Then there's also the problem that most people buying cars probably don't care about handing much, if at all.

CUVs are fuel efficient enough that there isn't really a meaningful difference anymore.

I would agree - for a long time no one was making affordable Mazdaspeed type sedans.

interesting

And they still out-handled their SUV/truck/crossover counterparts as the rule.

Ford F150 in 1990 stickered between 10,366 to 14,933, rounded up 15k.
Adjusted for inflation would range 20,399-29,518 rounded up 30k.

2020 F150 starts at $28,495. That's for a bare bones 2 wheel drive shit box work truck with the 3.3 V6.
Never mind the raptor never mind a platinum.

Shit box work truck to shit box work truck, that's a split of $8,096 between base models.

1990 Chevy Silverado.
MSRP stickered $10,445 - $18,424 adjusted for inflation would range $20,554.99-$36,257.08
2020 fugly thing starts at $28,300.

Shit box work truck to shit box work truck, that's a split of $7,745.01 between base models.

Whats a Tacoma, ARFCOMs favorite mini truck, look like?

A Tacoma in 1990 started at, $7,998 base model bare bones.
A bare bones Tacoma adjusted for inflation today would be $15,739.48
A 2020 tacoma starts at $26,050

That's a split of $10,310.52 between base models.

How are those splits relative?

let's do a mustang and camaro.

1990 Camaro MSRP $10,995 - $20,195
Adjusted for inflation $21,637.35 - $39,742.28
2020 fugly beast starts at $25,000 for a split of $3,362.65 between base models.

Mustang.
1990 mustang MSRP ranged $9,456 - $18,805
Adjusted for inflation $18,608.71 - 37,006.86
2020 mustang starts at $26,670 with a split of $8,061.29 between base models.

When I say not relative when adjusted for inflation, an example like yours is actually acceptable.
1k-1,500 is totally understandable. 3k+
Again, that's comparing base models...
87 cabin Air bags ain't cheap. Go to an insurance auction and find something that was involved in a low speed collision like the Cadillac ATS I looked to buy for a knock around town beater car. A front clip at most radiator condenser and AC recharge. But because granny blitzed a stopped truck at a red light and deployed every air bag in the car... just to replace the fucked up interior plus air bags cost more than what I can buy that car in pristine condition used. Never mind the front fenders hood bumpercover/grille head lamps radiator condenser...

Where's the value at in that? There isnt. Throw away. Good for the engine/transmission for one that popped an engine or transmission sure...

Longevity? You really think vehicles last? I was a Ford dealer tech, I lived in NY. In 2010 a 2005 superduty typically had cancer around the wheel wells, rockers, bed support rails would typically be gone leaving the owner with a wavy bed floor. A 90 F250 driven daily would have just the same body rot as one only 5 years old at that time... Where's the value in that? Just like the 7.3s, the 6.0s had oil pans rotting off of them in just 5 years time. Go change your oil, to save a buck, crack the drain plug and rip the pan wide open. At least we didn't have to drop the transmissions in 6.0s to change the oil pans like in the 7.3s...

Catastrophic engine failures occurred regularly in 6.4s with emissions control devices in place. Even with a warranty, the owner of the truck absorbs down time. A 6.0? I had them down to a science turnaround for head studs and coolers/egr delete 3 days total if the machine shop wasn't backed up and gaskets were in stock. 6.4s were always on intergalactic back order. And penny pinchers trying to weasel out of coverages go as cheap as possible-cost cap tool.

There's more gaskets, seals, o rings than moving parts in a 6.4 I've assembled them from literal bare blocks due to back orders...
It was common to wait a month for parts. That's no exaggeration.
How am I supposed to stand behind that fuckery to guys who actually depended on that truck for a paycheck? I couldnt.
I was viewed as a troll. Here I am showing the back order, here I am showing the gymnastics of bean counters trying to cut corners and half ass the repair, and brand fanbois were calling me a troll for demanding better from FoMoCo?
weird flex, but okay...
Oh sure, they might put you in a rental car for 35 bucks per day. Tell the landscaper who needs to tow 2 zero turn mowers to hook his trailer up to a focus.
Tell the contractor who needs to tow his excavator and bobcat to a homeowner that wants a retaining wall built the same.
Tell the plumber the same.
Tell the welder the same.
Tell the guys who actually bought those trucks to do truck things it's okay, Ford made you whole by providing you with an econobox while your tool with 4-6 wheels is laid up waiting on bean counters and parts delays that. They'll go through the roof. And rightfully so as they're incapable to perform their tasks and make money.

That's how you lend credibility to liberals promising free shit.
Which is why I am of the opinion if a politician or regulating body wants that bullshit in vehicles, they can pay for it out of their pocket/their budget, and subsidize the business owners down times as a result of the failures.

There's a reason that dealership I worked at kept 6.0 trade ins and had registered them to the dealership, and had me and the other diesel guy refurbish/bullet proof them. Wasn't solely for tax purposes.
Come in with an F350 dump truck on the hook? Get an older one that's got a legit bullet proofed 6.0 so you may continue to tow your skid steer, excavator, haul gravel etc.
Come in with a regular cab 8ft bed get the same so you may still conduct business and earn a living while bean counters and parts delays kept your tool, your truck, laid up.

Same again with the 6.7... that was fords baby. Any issues with 11s when they first reared their ugly heads, Ford wanted to send FSEs out to document everything. They had alot riding on the 6.7 being a hit. They handled it better than the 6.0 and 6.4 nonsense. However that was also contributing to more down time as we had to show everything to the dorks.

I'm telling you in sincerity there isn't value in new vehicles. Between bodies that rot out in road salt states, utter destruction when all of those at your cost whether you want them or not, cabin airbags deploy, emissions control devices and piss poor engineering and execution of said emissions control devices cause/contribute to catastrophic engine failure... There's no value justifying those splits when factoring for inflation.
Older shit absolutely. I used to dig 70s and 80s trucks abandoned on farms, in swamps for their blocks to build race engines for my stock cars when I raced in pure stock class requiring OEM parts no aftermarket parts unless direct replacements to OEM specs. Other than brake lines seized calipers bagged out wheel cylinders? There was plenty of life left in those old pigs in the grand scheme of things, relatively minor cost to fix from sitting.
Swap a 4.8 5.3 6.0 vortec 4L60/80E and PCM in... You've got the best of both worlds. Hell I kept one K20 as a plow truck. For LOLs I put one of the engines I had on stand by in it, just put headers to glasspacks and a 4bbl intake and edelbrock on it. Old Myers 4 way plow. Could move snow at 8,000rpm and do it through 3rd.
To me, that's value. A body that isn't roached out made of real steel, frame that isn't compromised by rust.

As I said before. I'm a chevy truck fanboi. I demand better than that repulsive 19+ silverado. I won't reward them with my money for that on wheels.

But I'm sure MotorTrend, Car & Driver types don't like that. They justify and endorse all that's been implemented thus far as a net positive and that my opinions are that of a troglodyte stuck in the 50s 60s and 70s. Or just plain crazy. I don't think it's crazy being opposed to over burdenous voluminous regulations. Especially if there's an arbitrary cost increase passed onto US, the consumer. That's what being small government conservative individual > collective is all about.

If you don't like guns don't buy one, don't arbitrarily make felons out of otherwise law abiding upstanding citizens exercising their rights to keep and bear arms as they see fit.

Its the exact same outlook, just applied to the automotive industry.
If you don't want nanny state intervention in a vehicle, by all means we should be able to get that.
But we cant. Because regulations. .gov knows what's best for us.

I don't buy it. Not for a minute.
I don't want, need, nor desire 87 cabin Air bags, traction control, stability control, ABS etc. I don't support appeasing hippies.
Automanufacturers shouldn't be the ones pushing to generate exhaust cleaner than what they take in. If we're being honest, the responsibility rests in the hands of the Environmental Protection Agency to design, test, and implement air and water filtration devices. Afterall, their name is Environmental Protection Agency, you'd think that's their task... but that responsibility was passed onto manufacturers and at our expense. Both in cost to produce and cost to acquire and in down time-real cost of ownership. Yes factor the costs of fuel and maintenance. Absolutely. Don't neglect to factor for failure of pertinent powertrain/driveline components, and the downtime associated with it either.

I want something that if I'm dropping 30k+ on to be able to withstand the abuse I subject it to, requiring nothing more than maintenance. And not be a rust bucket if I were to for whatever reason move to another winter state, be able to hand it down to crotch fruit when they're of age to get a license.
If I'm spending on leather, give me real leather. Not vinyl.

Does it make sense?
Do you see it now?

You sure about that? Because I just did the math and it showed different...
$3k-$10k split of bare bones to bare bones... never mind the luxury trims... pay no attention to luxury trims. Take them off the table.
Base bare bones to Base bare bones.

3k-10k price difference of 1990 popular sellers to 2020 Popular sellers with inflation adjusted...
That leaves us with speculation for what bloated the price difference after adjusting for inflation...

Mine is .gov regulations and mandates.
I suppose we could put everything under a microscope to factor the Why there's a 3k-10k dollar split across base models.
I still stand by .gov regulations and mandates = arbitrary costs that didn't exist in 1990 that were passed on us consumers.

one thing i have to comment is that also all that you listed has a fair size difference between each other, especially he Tacoma, i current 2020 is 212in long while a 1990 is 175in long

same thing goes for all the others you listed to, almost EVERYTHING has gotten bigger dimension wise

the market for worse INSISTS it

so because of this there is no longer small cars anymore, the civic of today is the size of a mid 90s accord

this also makes everything more expensive.

I currently drive a CUV and it's my favorite vehicle I've ever owned. It's one of the souped-up off-road trim packages of the Jeep lineup; not going to say which exact one for doxxing purposes.

Compared to my old pickup truck, it's a dream to maneuver, better on gas, cheaper to maintain, and has almost identical off-road capabilities for my purposes (emphasis on FOR MY PURPOSES -- my off-roading consists of well-maintained forest roads, dirt parking areas, etc).

Compared to my old four-door, it's got better visibility, a more comfortable seating position, a roomier interior, easier to access as the other poster had mentioned, and slightly worse MPG but not enough for me to care about.

I'm really happy with it and could see myself driving this kind of vehicle for a long time.

Tacoma. 212 inches long today vs 175 inches long in 1990.
Does that justify a 10k dollar increase for 37 inches worth of sheet metal and frame rail?
No way. 21% longer = 165% increase in cost difference.

Not unless Toyota is using some unobtainium rot proof material for their tacoma frames after that disaster... then I would say, oh absolutely that's worth it.

You're no dummy either LittlePony. Sheet metal didn't just approach brass/copper prices... and they're not being put together by hand on Henry fords assembly line either... by skilled artisans with hammers english wheels and skilled welders, with hand stitched leather seats...

1990 mustang 179.6 inches long 69.1 inches wide.
2020 mustang 188 inches long, 75 inches wide.
Does that justify the 8k dollar gap between bringing a 1990 MSRP adjusted for inflation, and the 20MSRP between base models?
8k for 8.4 inches in length and 5.9 inches in width?
The 2020 mustang got 4.7% longer and 8.5% wider and 8k is justified? No way did that unibody piece of shit get some new light weight space age unobtainium, stronger than steel alloy to justify the 143% increase in cost split.

If built by hand I could understand... they're being glued/tack/spot welded together by robots.
The body panels aren't formed by hand on English wheels...Stamped out by a machine...
Look at the gauge thickness in the sheet metal too. We have pie tin compared to 1990.
When you grow up with $500-$1,000 dollar 70s-early 90s pickups and have to fix it and keep it going yourself, you pull an interior door panel to do a window regulator in that old truck compare the gauge of the steel in that door vs today's door... if anything, I'll say they may use more material for the dimensions. But no way are they using the same gauge thickness... no way. Not at all. They might be breaking even in production expenses simply by reducing the gauge thicknesses. No way are they using the same gauge thicknesses as compared to shit built in the 70s 80s early 90s... no way.

If it's the size of the vehicle driving up costs beyond relative for adjusting for inflation... you're gonna have to do far more than 10-30% larger dimensions in length width and height, when bodies aren't constructed by hand, cabins filled with plastic blow molded dash and interior panels with vinyl seat covers...
I wonder if going from proven reliable switches fuses relays and solenoids to CAN/BUS networks and module controlled all the things + .gov mandated preprogrammed parameters and nanny state controls/devices have something to do with that...

If anything, the F150 with larger dimensions might have made a more sensible argument for factor being size-Going from sheet metal to aluminum bodies...

My 10+ year old truck just fits in my garage.
The newer trucks won't fit.
I don't fit in the smaller sized trucks.
Looks like I will be driving my old truck for another 10-20 years.

im not saying its the only factor but it is a contributing one

all the grains of sand add up.

Is Ford still adding all F-Series sales up to and including the 750s to make their #s beat Chevy/GM?

No.
In 2019 the F150 alone (623,980) beat Chevy 1500 (436,480) + GMC Sierra 1500 (158,284) combined.

Awesome! Good for you...
you'll be busier than you ever were at work.

that reminds me, coach-built stuff has gone up a shit ton in price too

On this note... Do you really think that a 1990's Ford with a wheezing 460 gas or 7.3IDI Diesel paired with a craptastic E40D transmission and a TTB front axle is anywhere near as reliable as what is available now? And as far as GM heavy duty... GM topkick was an electrical nightmare and an all around POS compared to a Ford F450-F550.

Holy incoherent wall of text.

In 1990, base model vehicles didn't include radios, air conditioning, or power anything. The interiors were covered in the cheapest plastics in all of human history. They came standard with garbage lowest bidder 4-5 speed manual transmissions, and paying for an automatic meant getting a 4 speed slushbox.

A base model 1990 F-150 with the 300ci I6 had 145 hp. The new one starts with 290 hp. The GM C/K1500 got a 4.3L V6 that made 160 hp. The new one starts with 285 hp. Both come standard with 6 speed autos now.

Toyota pickups? In 1990, it had 109 hp, and it was a true compact pickup offered as a single cab. The current Tacoma is a much bigger vehicle that isn't even available with a single cab, and it gets a hell of a lot more standard equipment.

The Mustang and Camaro are even crazier comparisons. In 1990 they were shitboxes, and they were slow as hell. Today's cars have proper chassis, proper suspension, plenty of power, and much nicer interiors. They are luxury super cars compared to the trash from 1990.

And yes, newer vehicles are far more reliable and last much longer. You know why '80s cars had 5 digit odometers? Because that's about all they were good for. Today, we expect spark plugs to last 100k, and most models can make it that far with few, if any repairs. Vehicles have always been depreciating assets that used up and run into the ground, but new ones last longer while also being more comfortable and more capable.

The progress the auto industry has made in the last 30 years is nothing short of impressive.

Woah woah woah... I thought you said Stripped down models previously? You're not shifting the goal posts now are you? If you are, prove my point for me, tell me. Tell arfcom.

Did a 90 anything come standard equipped with 87 air bags, traction control, stability control, tire pressure monitoring?
To you and the poster above you.
Did an IDI 7.3 or its updated and improved version 7.3 powerstroke have a DPF, DOC, EGR system?

You said you could still get an affordable stripped down model. So. I compared stripped down models and adjusted for inflation and showed a significant cost difference proving my point, the prices aren't relative and there's a reason. That reason is arbitrary liberal mandate nanny state bullshit.

After factoring for inflation the prices are not relative.

Do I have to search for window stickers showing what AC and automatic transmissions would have cost in today's dollars, further lending credibility to your approach and still show an unrealistic gap in costs?
Because I will if I have to. I'm telling you there's shit packed in vehicles we are paying for whether we want them or not due to liberal .gov mandates and regulations.

You can argue technology. You'd be a Daisy if you did. Just like I told littlepony they're not built by hand on Henry fords production/assembly line.
That role has been fulfilled by robotics. If anything, the cost to mass produce DECREASED. Robots don't get sick. They don't have to leave work because the school called and junior is sick or got in a fight. Nor do robots come in hung over on Monday.

You can argue the innovative cutting edge designs.
As long as you aren't talking about the 19/20 silverado/HDs. That's not cutting edge or innovative. That is degeneracy on wheels.

Anything else... you might have a legitimate point. If it's various modules tied together on a CAN/BUS network I will argue that as Just because you can, doesn't mean you should... in regards of 90s vacuum operated all the things? Oh fuck that nonsense. That's actually more expensive and less reliable.
Fuses switches solenoids and relays have always been reliable. And there's no module to fuck up if a tail light pops. There's no BCM to create a parasitic draw when you add aftermarket lights/accessories. (Like the LED cargo light in a F450 flat bed I dealt with a couple weeks ago, change the resistance of a circuit in any fashion you call the electrical gremlins. And they come a running turning your truck into the most expensive lawn ornament)

Fact still remains. There's a whole hell of alot to account for. Even if I were to find that window sticker for a 4.9 regular cab with air conditioning automatic  and 2 wheel drive to adjust for inflation. There's gonna be one hell of a gap that you are gonna have to show for.


You're either ignoring that there are .gov mandatory things adding arbitrary expense to vehicles that didn't exist in 1990, or you're pushing a false dichotomy of return to 90s construction/production/tolerances and technology. I'm hoping it's glossing over regulations and mandates. And not a case of cardigan sweater Car and Driver type cheerleading the newest shit as the latest and greatest.

And that 4.9 is indestructible.

While that 4.9 won't win races, Just like fords 6.2, you have to do something amazing to get one to give up the ghost. Plus. No cam phasers to fuck up.

Nanny state mandatory devices and pre programmed parameters being standard equipment...
LittlePony tried that angle with the tacoma being bigger...

I'll say the same to you as I did to him. Unless that extra material for the frame is some rot proof alloy unobtainium, or Toyota is paying copper prices for sheet metal... You're really gonna have a hard time proving to me a 10k difference after adjusted for inflation rests in the body and frame because. Bigger.
I'm telling you there's arbitrary bullshit being packed into vehicles, bullshit you get whether you want it or not, jacking the costs up not even relative when adjusted for inflation. Are you simply ignoring that? Or are you presenting a false dichotomy that things need to return to 1990 manufacturing and technology? Don't be bashful, many do that all the time. Descend to the Yep let's go back to 5 digit odometers and carburetors and distributors! When that isn't what I've argued.

Arbitrary expenses added are arbitrary expenses added.
Which has been my point since I began posting... ditch the nanny state shit, I'm not advocating to build weak blocks, cast all the things, and looser tollerances or slush box automatics. Although I would love to get a 4-6 speed with spur cut gesrs.

I've said clearly, somehow it escapes you, the poster above you and LittlePony, there are arbitrary costs added via .gov regulations. Hell I even stated about Ford telling us to deflate the tires in the Explorer Firestone took the bad rap, and as a result, tire pressure monitoring became MANDATORY. Whether you wanted it or not. You got it. Arbitrary expense is arbitrary expense. Those sensors took time and money to develop and add.

Stop ignoring that fact. That also applies to air bags and every thing else .gov mandates manufacturers pack into a vehicle. Whether you wanted it or not.

Whatever you say Car and Driver, swap the cardigan sweater for a uniform and get into a shop. Any shop. Independent or brand of your choosing.
Especially in a road salt state. Tell me how long they last there. Never mind the potholes big enough to swallow a buick. won't matter if you're wrenching superduties, or super budget econoboxes. Potholes kill vehicles.

That's funny. I've rolled the odometer over in old chevy pickups. Older than I am.
Ignorance is bliss... that's a boomer myth that's been perpetuated and it needs to stop. Just like how boomers being the luddite and selective memory they are, feared GM and Mopar V8s that kicked down to 4 cylinders based on load. Just like how boomers recall Oldsmobile and Chevy and Cadillac diesels being utter failures so they won't give a diesel anything else a chance.

I will gladly come scoop any 5 digit odometer having vehicle from you or anyone else who believes that bullshit lie that cars were only good for 50-90k then suddenly gave up the ghost. Ever hear of a thing known as planned obsolescence? It's this nifty thing manufacturers started doing to keep you buying their latest and greatest. For they cant make money if new units aren't sold. So why bother building something with pride that will last for years? Best to make it last the length of a warranty in miles/years. Then stop producing parts for it when the warranty is gone. And when the suckers are 60 months in on an 84 month loan.
If anything modern shit should come with 5 digit odometers. 5 years at the average of 12k per year 60k miles. That's about when the cancer takes over the subframes the unibodies the truck frames and bodies. Except for those old unreliable cost an arm and a leg to keep going shit boxes... somehow... they can be subject to the same operational conditions, for a longer period of time... and they weren't ready for the scrap yard in 5 years time, or in need of a miracle worker at the body shop... my Floridabro friends When I tell them about what road salt does and how you'd be lucky to find something that isn't fucked up. So if they have never seen it. They too will say you're smoking crack! No way!

I call that, paying more, getting less. And you'll never see me defend that fuckery. Ever. If anything? Peak automotive was early 00s, 00-06/07. See any chevy pickup 4.8-6.0 if they had came with rust proof frames and brake lines? I bet you'd see more of them on the road today.
Those GM 3.1-3.8s? Intake gaskets from fel-pro. One and done.

There's threads here on arfcom I've posted in, guys with the exact same trucks as me, going on about premature transmission failure or beginning to show signs of premature failure/wear.
Bet their traction and stability control works as designed though

Just like the Ford fanbois. Tell them what is going on inside that transmission. Tell them. Change your driving habits. Hold that fucker to the floor board until cruising speed is desired. It circumvents the adaptive strategy designed to cater to boomers and soybois with wimpy seamless soft shifts, by increasing line pressure. Do that. No more shift flair. No more jerky shifts. No more "hunting for gears". Or get custom written tunes with firmer upshifts.

Get called an asshole because that will somehow now prematurely kill an engine/truck... or results in poor fuel economy. Which it doesnt.
Roll eyes at boomer driving miss Daisy.

You tell the thousands upon thousands of guys with 14-18 silverados sierras tahoe etc. That have experienced transmission failures some multiple failures. Guys who like me, drank the bow tie kool-aid, that their shit is built better than ever before.
They'll laugh you out the door and tell you how their 85 95 05 10 have always been issue free for 100k+ in comparison. While they might not have been refined, the damn things started up every day, and took very little in keeping them going... never mind the guys with lifter failure... That one is more than likely lack of maintenance related.

But I bet their 85, their 95, 05, 10 didn't come with nearly as much bullshit as the new ones do standard feature.

You'll never see me advocate for or defend corporate bean counters cutting costs where they shouldn't be cut.
Instead of cramming 87 air bags in cabin. How about, a more adequate transmission fluid cooler? How about instead of appeasing to the lowest common denominator via traction and stability control, that money be spent on better Clutch materials, better drum materials, firmer upshifts stronger applying and holding pressures opposed to massaging clutches.
Or better yet. Put real leather in that LTZ/Lariat/Laramie+ upper echelon trucks.

You're also not going to get me to advocate for returning to poor metalurgy, loose tolerances, and poorer performance.
Just like the response above yours touches on slush box E4ODs, IDI 7.3s, and 460s...
With ford, they didn't make improvements when they did have a good thing going. Rather than improve what they had in the case of the 460, they ditched it. Just like they did with the 302 and 351 Windsors. Rather than improve the metalurgy of a Windsor block? They went to the OHC 4.6-6.8
"Innovative" nah. 4.6 wasn't a power house. But it was damn reliable. 5.4s spit plugs out all the time. Then they went to the 3 valve garbage.
Bet it would have been cheaper for Ford to have improved upon the 460 rather than add 2 more cylinders to the 5.4...
Funny. There's many an article to be found and youtube video to be seen, where all that was done to a 460 was a pair of heads that could breathe, a higher compression ratio, and a mild cam with a carb and distributor, never mind the many aftermarket EFI, TBI, and PFI injection systems that can be added...
I wonder. If Ford added good breathing aluminum heads, higher compression, tighter tolerances, a cam that could yield towing and cruising torque with a monstrous mid range performance peaking at 6,500 if that old dinosaur would have saved them money.
Hell. They could even have implemented variable cam timing like GM did with the 6.0 LY6. Hell they could have even tried their hands at cylinder deactivation. Probably would have cost them far less than to re-tool for that OHC garbage they doubled down on.

I sincerely wish them the best with the 7.3 gasser. I do. I hope that thing proves to be as reliable as death and taxes so they can scale that down and replace the 5.0 and ecojunk.
There's longevity for you. Timing chain water pump eating turbod V6. Never mind the valve and seat issues from Direct injection.
Those aren't cheap simple repairs you yourself can do at home in an afternoon in your garage or driveway...
Waits for but Muh Catch Can!
My response to that one will be Wait a minute, are you suggesting that you made an improvement that the factory couldn't/didn't? Imagine my shock Ford didn't learn from mistakes and for years equipped crank case ventilation contributing to valve coking on a turbo charged direct injected V6...

There's no excuse for that. None.

Don't even get me started on Ford PTU or DiPShit6 Focus/Fiesta.
Longer lasting my ass.

Get in the shop. You'll change that opinion real quick. Both mechanically and structurally.
But damn it they'll have traction and stability control and 87 air bags and tire pressure monitoring.

I'm telling you there's arbitrary expenses being rolled into new vehicles. You're ignoring it. That's not my problem.
Factor what that research, development, testing, and manufacturing for xx,xxx-xxx,xxx units.

That shit adds up far more than a new body style. A new engine. A new transmission. And suspension and interior.

Holy shit, man.

Decaf.  You're why they make it.

That was decaf mode.

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Right?