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Posted: 4/3/2020 4:50:55 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If i was a US company, supplying PPE. I'd be prioritizing my home getting enough PPE to function without shortages and fufulling those contracts with state and local responders than foriegn countries anyway. Instead 3M decided to stick their dick in a PR disaster. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Holy shit this place has gone to crazy town. I know that we have always had some outliers here but I am amazed at the amount of people that are screaming for the government to take control of a large US company and control the distribution of their products. What if you owned this company? Ask yourself what was the last thing that the government did better than the free market. Everything I have ever seen the government get involved in has turned to shit. What makes you think that this will be any different? I know that people are scared but for fucks sake get a grip. If i was a US company, supplying PPE. I'd be prioritizing my home getting enough PPE to function without shortages and fufulling those contracts with state and local responders than foriegn countries anyway. Instead 3M decided to stick their dick in a PR disaster. It is a total PR disaster. I agree with that 100 percent. That still doesn't give the government the right to control their product distribution. If they want to dick up their image that is on them. Two wrongs do not make a right. Cheaper than dirt dicked up their image by jacking up ammo prices during the big panic. That doesn't mean the government should have stepped in and controlled them. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 4:52:57 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Holy shit this place has gone to crazy town. I know that we have always had some outliers here but I am amazed at the amount of people that are screaming for the government to take control of a large US company and control the distribution of their products. What if you owned this company? Ask yourself what was the last thing that the government did better than the free market. Everything I have ever seen the government get involved in has turned to shit. What makes you think that this will be any different? I know that people are scared but for fucks sake get a grip. If I owned the company? Considering we are in the midst of a pandemic (which many here either are unable or unwilling to acknowledge) I'd make sure that the needs of my country are met first. If anything, the psychology of this is interesting and entertaining, especially the "muh property/muh rights people/I'd rather see it burn than have the gubmint take it". It's all independence, bravado and from my cold dead hands bullshit until they find themselves needing something from .gov in a time of crisis, whether it's food, medicine, or some financial assistance. I wonder how they will rationalize their independence when they are the ones that are actually in need and the government is the only one that can help. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 4:53:20 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seems like a lot of people are confusing patriotism with capitalism. And a lot of Anarcho capitalists chiming in screaming about muh freedom. What a shit show...  I see people confusing patriotism with socialism. They are not the same thing. There is nothing patriotic about making this country socialist. It is the exact opposite of patriotism and against everything the country stands for. Socialism: economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole (e.g. government). |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 4:53:30 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree that is his point. Stop Mask from going to say India, will they stop exporting Meds? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Unless it's something like "El Salvador has a factory that produces 250% of their mask needs. If we stop exporting then they could retaliate by not exporting to us." For so many things we are a net importer, so it could result in us cutting off our nose to spite our face. That's all I can think of. I agree that is his point. Stop Mask from going to say India, will they stop exporting Meds? India already stopped shipping meds. Like 3 days after Trump was over their singing their praises and talking about how the US and India were going to become Great, Fantastic, Glorious allies. From what I am reading of 3Ms actions and the doubling down by their CEO, I'm ok with the current situation. Fuck China. Fuck India. Fuck the WHO and Fuck the UN. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 4:53:33 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Private companies don't owe you anything. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yup! "Orangeman fucked us by not doing enough." The sample people: "Leave 3M ALONE! Let the masks we should be getting, fly out of the county!" Private companies don't owe you anything. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 4:54:13 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seems like a lot of people are confusing patriotism with capitalism. And a lot of Anarcho capitalists chiming in screaming about muh freedom. What a shit show... Very succinct, highly accurate. Bravo. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 4:54:38 PM EST
[#7]
3M better not see one penny of bail out money!
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Posted: 4/3/2020 4:55:16 PM EST
[#8]
The Socialists have been flying out of the closet for weeks now.
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Posted: 4/3/2020 4:55:34 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is a total PR disaster. I agree with that 100 percent. That still doesn't give the government the right to control their product distribution. If they want to dick up their image that is on them. Two wrongs do not make a right. Cheaper than dirt dicked up their image by jacking up ammo prices during the big panic. That doesn't mean the government should have stepped in and controlled them. Pissing off the wrong people and violating agreements seems dangerous to ones business health. regardless of your beliefs. thats true. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 4:56:45 PM EST
[#10]
This is more than just free market versus government mandate.
A lot of the problem within 3M is that they have manufacturing of N95 masks in Shanghai.....CHINA. And China demands all masks made in China stay in China. That is not free market either. Trump is trying to pressure 3M to coax its landlord country, China, to allow export to 3M's host country, USA. So this is really a political battle between Trump and Xi, not about free market so much. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 4:57:02 PM EST
[#11]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Private companies don’t owe you anything. It is Wartime though! Thank you for your service. *clapping intensifies* If you think what’s currently taking place is anything but socioeconomic warfare you’ve got issues no amount of discussion here can remedy. @swede1986 |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:00:15 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is more than just free market versus government mandate. A lot of the problem within 3M is that they have manufacturing of N95 masks in Shanghai.....CHINA. And China demands all masks made in China stay in China. That is not free market either. Trump is trying to pressure 3M to coax its landlord country, China, to allow export to 3M's host country, USA. So this is really a political battle between Trump and Xi, not about free market so much. No, that's wrong. If you don't allow yourself to be fucked in the ass by your unscrupulous counter parties, you are a communist who hates the free market. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:00:45 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is more than just free market versus government mandate. A lot of the problem within 3M is that they have manufacturing of N95 masks in Shanghai.....CHINA. And China demands all masks made in China stay in China. That is not free market either. Trump is trying to pressure 3M to coax its landlord country, China, to allow export to 3M's host country, USA. So this is really a political battle between Trump and Xi, not about free market so much. That’s not, actually, a lot of the problem. Read more and post less, the first 5 pages of this thread would be a good start. That’s some of the problem, but not a significant portion of the topic at hand, this is about American companies and American stock. It’s already been thoroughly explained in previous posts and links, I’m not typing it all out again. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:01:46 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am not sure I even understand their retard logic. So if we stop selling them to other countries we will actually have less here? That makes perfect sense. Currently if I buy a 6 pack of beer and give my buddy 3 bottles I am left with 3. Using their math if I buy a 6 pack but refuse to give my buddy 3 beers then I will somehow end up only have 2 beers. Yea...that makes sense. I can only assume they mean ones made in other countries would not get sent here. Who else are we getting them from, China? No one wants a mask from there right now anyway, Ill take my chances and make them here. I hope folks remember they were willing to screw America during this deal to probably turn a higher profit with non-US sales... What they said was if we stop exporting to other countries, other countries may stop selling to us. If we now import more than we export, which is highly probable, and other countries stop selling to us in retaliation for us refusing to sell to them we could end up with less. In your example you can't buy a 6 pack in the first place because 4 of the beers were made in Mexico. All you can buy is 2. In 3M's world it works likes this: Status Quo US Manufactured: 100,000,000 Imported into US: 100,000,000 Exported from US: 75,000,00 Total available in US: 125,000,000 New Reality US Manufactured: 100,000,000 Imported into US: 0 Exported from US: 0 Total available in US: 100,000,000 |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:02:27 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We're not asking. First post, as usual. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:02:35 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: [Laughs in MyPillow Masks] https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/144599/LaughsinLindell_jpg-1348949.JPG  
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:04:20 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you’re fine with a company that sells critical, life saving items extorting American states and hospitals? Endangering American lives in the process? They had an order in place, states and hospitals can’t be expected to keep increasing the amount of money paid any time some previously uninvolved party shows up with a wad of cash. “Hey listen, I know our contract said we sell you xxx amount of masks at xxx amount, but _______ from _______ just showed up and offered double that, so if you want the masks I’m gonna need you to triple what we agreed upon.” Just because some people are too shortsighted to see the situation for the reality it is, either through greed or incompetence, doesn’t mean we all are. @barnbwt Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I am not sure I even understand their retard logic. So if we stop selling them to other countries we will actually have less here? That makes perfect sense. Currently if I buy a 6 pack of beer and give my buddy 3 bottles I am left with 3. Using their math if I buy a 6 pack but refuse to give my buddy 3 beers then I will somehow end up only have 2 beers. Yea...that makes sense. I can only assume they mean ones made in other countries would not get sent here. Who else are we getting them from, China? No one wants a mask from there right now anyway, Ill take my chances and make them here. I hope folks remember they were willing to screw America during this deal to probably turn a higher profit with non-US sales... There are lots of manufacturers and lots of distribution channels. The question is, is it better for the established markets to operate, or do we need central planning. s it necessary? Is there critical shortage? Other then Cuomo screaming, and hospital employees screaming, is there any real evidence that the supply is constrained? The knee jerk desire to go full central planning in every crisis is fascinating to watch. We definitely need central management of some sort, if only to be able to call bullshit and tell some states they are sitting in a million masks ina warehouse that were delivered last week, but some clerk forgot about. I'm not convinced we need to go full commie. Yes, there’s actually a critical shortage, for US buyers, and yes, 3M and their distributors are facilitating it. According to the director of the Florida Division of Emergency Management what’s happening is that he’s had an order for millons of masks over a month that keeps getting bumped because foreign buyers keep showing up with wads of cash. 3M doesn’t sell directly to customers, including states, and is aware of all the fuckery with their distributors but won’t attempt to help. @Bohr_Adam ETA: https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/florida-official-says-3m-selling-002448142.html Why won't he pay 3M enough to claim them, then? Surely he's allowed to, if they are truly in such short supply...unless of course, he wants to hold 3M to a lower price than their other customers are paying. So you’re fine with a company that sells critical, life saving items extorting American states and hospitals? Endangering American lives in the process? They had an order in place, states and hospitals can’t be expected to keep increasing the amount of money paid any time some previously uninvolved party shows up with a wad of cash. “Hey listen, I know our contract said we sell you xxx amount of masks at xxx amount, but _______ from _______ just showed up and offered double that, so if you want the masks I’m gonna need you to triple what we agreed upon.” Just because some people are too shortsighted to see the situation for the reality it is, either through greed or incompetence, doesn’t mean we all are. @barnbwt It's not 'extortion' if you have a competing offer ready to go. Yes, that is precisely how this should work. We need the masks more than the Chicoms, right? RIGHT?! So pay the fucking man what he's owed, you cheap bastards. This is how economies function. Doesn't matter that you don' wanna. If it's not actually serious enough to merit paying the high price you're fully capable of paying, sit down & shut the fuck up while he does business with those who will. This is how economies function. You don't threaten him, you don't try to steal his shit, you don't run to the cops & call him a thief. You pay him his goddam money & go about your business. Again, we just blew TWO TRILLION on banker support; people that won't "save a single life" in the simpleton view of the economy that favors nationalization. How much does this "extortion" you describe really amount to, in actual dollars? Again, you're wanting a company to completely cut off its business contacts to do business with YOU ALONE, and probably not long-term, yet you don't think you should make it worth their while? Using guns to get the masks will only result in 3M producing fewer of them in the end, whether they like it or not. We've been through this everywhere socialism has been tried, remember? |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:06:27 PM EST
[#18]
At the press conference just now:
"Mr. president, both the government of Canada and 3M are pushing back on this DPA not to export M95 masks and respirators, 3M says--" "I don't blame them. They can push back all they want. We're not happy with 3M. We're not happy. And the people that dealt it directly are not happy at all with 3M." oh boy |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:06:50 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Funny how quickly those on the right have embraced socialism. Prior to this, I had hoped it was only the left  We’ve quickly reverted to “socialism is fine if it saves just one American life”. What other freedoms are we willing to sacrifice? 15% of the population |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:08:51 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And if you "requisition" those supplies is management going to continue to pay overtime to have more made just so they can be taken by force again? |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:08:55 PM EST
[#21]
In before the airstrikes
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:09:33 PM EST
[#22]
You gonna git fucked...
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:09:57 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Holy shit this place has gone to crazy town. I know that we have always had some outliers here but I am amazed at the amount of people that are screaming for the government to take control of a large US company and control the distribution of their products. What if you owned this company? Ask yourself what was the last thing that the government did better than the free market. Everything I have ever seen the government get involved in has turned to shit. What makes you think that this will be any different? I know that people are scared but for fucks sake get a grip. If I owned that company (and I do have ownership stake in a corporation) everything we did at all times BUT ESPECIALLY DURING A NATIONAL EMERGENCY would pass through the filter of the "AMERICA FIRST" principle. Does this decision/action cause harm or is in some way detrimental to the United States? If the answer is yes it's a bad decision or it's an unacceptable course of action. It's not the only consideration, it's one of thousands of factors one must weigh when making business decisions, but it's a critically important one. Having said that 3M (or its distributors) move to drop existing US orders for foreign high bidders was also a terrible decision from a variety of other considerations: - Ethics - Public Relations - Government Relations - Legal - Long term regulatory environment - Share price / ROI When in doubt, err on the side of patriotism. You can never go wrong that way. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:10:35 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you think what’s currently taking place is anything but socioeconomic warfare you’ve got issues no amount of discussion here can remedy. @swede1986 Sure thing, soldier. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:11:06 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've never heard a company report concerns about backlashes from other countries before. Does 3M think that they're in a diplomatic role or something? Leave that to the fuckin government. "Sorry Latin America, my gov.says they get stuff first, is what it is." There ya go. I mean, is Canada and Latin America putting America first in all this? Doubt it. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:11:24 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unless it's something like "El Salvador has a factory that produces 250% of their mask needs. If we stop exporting then they could retaliate by not exporting to us." For so many things we are a net importer, so it could result in us cutting off our nose to spite our face. That's all I can think of. I think you are correct. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:11:31 PM EST
[#27]
Arfcom has gone off the the deep end with its push for statism.
As long as the mango messiah ordaines it I suppose it's  ok.
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:12:43 PM EST
[#28]
The "proper" way, within existing emergency authorities, to handle this is to make the federal government the lead buyer and control distribution, and for orders to come to them. DOD is best equipped for this. There should be National Guard medical supply liaisons in every region/tracking and reporting supply numbers.
The government contracts with 3M, the government sets the price. 3M delivers. 3M can and will still contract with other buyers. This is how we do military procurement (minus the authority to set the price and force the contract). There are more than enough of these products to go around. We just need to get our hands around the problem, properly prioritize distribution based on current stockage levels, and stop pitting hospitals and states against each other. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:12:50 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We're not asking. Ok, we're going to have to look into this FPNI thing. It ain't natural. And just send the troops into 3M. Lock the admin down. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:12:57 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Socialists have been flying out of the closet for weeks now.  I hate fucking thieves. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:13:53 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not 'extortion' if you have a competing offer ready to go. Yes, that is precisely how this should work. We need the masks more than the Chicoms, right? RIGHT?! So pay the fucking man what he's owed, you cheap bastards. This is how economies function. Doesn't matter that you don' wanna. If it's not actually serious enough to merit paying the high price you're fully capable of paying, sit down & shut the fuck up while he does business with those who will. This is how economies function. You don't threaten him, you don't try to steal his shit, you don't run to the cops & call him a thief. You pay him his goddam money & go about your business. Again, we just blew TWO TRILLION on banker support; people that won't "save a single life" in the simpleton view of the economy that favors nationalization. How much does this "extortion" you describe really amount to, in actual dollars? Again, you're wanting a company to completely cut off its business contacts to do business with YOU ALONE, and probably not long-term, yet you don't think you should make it worth their while? Using guns to get the masks will only result in 3M producing fewer of them in the end, whether they like it or not. We've been through this everywhere socialism has been tried, remember? |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:14:08 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hysterics much? No they are not told that "they can only sell to the US". So far they are only told that they cannot ignore orders already placed by US governmental entities and instead sell those products to the highest bidder and leave their US customers empty handed. If they still have capacity left over they can sell to whomever they want. But US companies must fill the US orders first, especially ones that were placed a month ago. They cannot bump them down the list. Not difficult to understand. AMERICA FIRST! What they did was fraud at best and damn close to treason in a time of national emergency. Some people here apparently consider scumbag moves like that "liberty" that should be protected. Pretty disgusting thinking to be honest. Has fuckall to do with liberty. Business tactics like this would get anyone kicked out of the EE in the blink of an eye. Selling a gun, here's the firm order, money incoming. Seller talks to someone else behind the scenes, gets a better offer, ships gun to shadow buyer. Original buyer is told to go fornicate themselves. LIBERTYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I couldn't have said it better. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:14:32 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What they said was if we stop exporting to other countries, other countries may stop selling to us. If we now import more than we export, which is highly probable, and other countries stop selling to us in retaliation for us refusing to sell to them we could end up with less. In your example you can't buy a 6 pack in the first place because 4 of the beers were made in Mexico. All you can buy is 2. In 3M's world it works likes this: Status Quo US Manufactured: 100,000,000 Imported into US: 100,000,000 Exported from US: 75,000,00 Total available in US: 125,000,000 New Reality US Manufactured: 100,000,000 Imported into US: 0 Exported from US: 0 Total available in US: 100,000,000 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I am not sure I even understand their retard logic. So if we stop selling them to other countries we will actually have less here? That makes perfect sense. Currently if I buy a 6 pack of beer and give my buddy 3 bottles I am left with 3. Using their math if I buy a 6 pack but refuse to give my buddy 3 beers then I will somehow end up only have 2 beers. Yea...that makes sense. I can only assume they mean ones made in other countries would not get sent here. Who else are we getting them from, China? No one wants a mask from there right now anyway, Ill take my chances and make them here. I hope folks remember they were willing to screw America during this deal to probably turn a higher profit with non-US sales... What they said was if we stop exporting to other countries, other countries may stop selling to us. If we now import more than we export, which is highly probable, and other countries stop selling to us in retaliation for us refusing to sell to them we could end up with less. In your example you can't buy a 6 pack in the first place because 4 of the beers were made in Mexico. All you can buy is 2. In 3M's world it works likes this: Status Quo US Manufactured: 100,000,000 Imported into US: 100,000,000 Exported from US: 75,000,00 Total available in US: 125,000,000 New Reality US Manufactured: 100,000,000 Imported into US: 0 Exported from US: 0 Total available in US: 100,000,000 You not read what Spasm wrote? He didn’t give a number but I will, up to 75% of masks made in China are defective, not to mention how they are now lying and cheating in order to get approval by government oversight organizations so they’ll put a stamp of approval on new mask manufacturers products made using unique processes, so they can sell them to a hospital near you. You post also completely ignores the fact that many new companies are ramping up production here. The signal to noise ratio in this thread is as high as any I’ve ever seen in GD. @PoopdeckPappy |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:15:19 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What they said was if we stop exporting to other countries, other countries may stop selling to us. If we now import more than we export, which is highly probable, and other countries stop selling to us in retaliation for us refusing to sell to them we could end up with less. In your example you can't buy a 6 pack in the first place because 4 of the beers were made in Mexico. All you can buy is 2. In 3M's world it works likes this: Status Quo US Manufactured: 100,000,000 Imported into US: 100,000,000 Exported from US: 75,000,00 Total available in US: 125,000,000 New Reality US Manufactured: 100,000,000 Imported into US: 0 Exported from US: 0 Total available in US: 100,000,000 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I am not sure I even understand their retard logic. So if we stop selling them to other countries we will actually have less here? That makes perfect sense. Currently if I buy a 6 pack of beer and give my buddy 3 bottles I am left with 3. Using their math if I buy a 6 pack but refuse to give my buddy 3 beers then I will somehow end up only have 2 beers. Yea...that makes sense. I can only assume they mean ones made in other countries would not get sent here. Who else are we getting them from, China? No one wants a mask from there right now anyway, Ill take my chances and make them here. I hope folks remember they were willing to screw America during this deal to probably turn a higher profit with non-US sales... What they said was if we stop exporting to other countries, other countries may stop selling to us. If we now import more than we export, which is highly probable, and other countries stop selling to us in retaliation for us refusing to sell to them we could end up with less. In your example you can't buy a 6 pack in the first place because 4 of the beers were made in Mexico. All you can buy is 2. In 3M's world it works likes this: Status Quo US Manufactured: 100,000,000 Imported into US: 100,000,000 Exported from US: 75,000,00 Total available in US: 125,000,000 New Reality US Manufactured: 100,000,000 Imported into US: 0 Exported from US: 0 Total available in US: 100,000,000 In 3M's world it works likes this: Status Quo US Manufactured: 100,000,000 Imported into US: 100,000,000 Exported from US: 75,000,00 Total available in US: 125,000,000 New Reality US Manufactured: 100,000,000 Imported into US: 0 Exported from US: 0 Total available in US: 100,000,000 A Newer Reality US Manufactured: 100,000,000 Imported into US: 0 Exported from US: 75,000,000 Total available in US: 25,000,000 Florida official says 3M is selling face masks to foreign countries instead of his state amid COVID-19 crisis https://video.foxnews.com/v/6146690215001/ The EMS rep from FL said he put in orders a month ago and isn’t getting them because the distributors are sending them to foreign counties and 3M won’t step in. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:16:05 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The "proper" way, within existing emergency authorities, to handle this is to make the federal government the lead buyer and control distribution, and for orders to come to them. DOD is best equipped for this. There should be National Guard medical supply liaisons in every region/tracking and reporting supply numbers. The government contracts with 3M, the government sets the price. 3M delivers. 3M can and will still contract with other buyers. This is how we do military procurement (minus the authority to set the price and force the contract). There are more than enough of these products to go around. We just need to get our hands around the problem, properly prioritize distribution based on current stock age levels, and stop pitting hospitals and states against each other. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:18:15 PM EST
[#36]
I think 3M is going to find that's it's not a suggestion nor strongly worded letter. The Act has real teeth.
There is nothing stopping Trump from arresting the entire BOD and the CEO (and any other bad actor within 3M) for not complying with the order. 3M should really get their lawyers to go over what the Act says and the consequences not complying entails. The main reason Truman signed the DPA into law was that industry, being fat and happy on post WW-2 profits, did not want to provide the US with what was needed for fighting the Korean War. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:22:00 PM EST
[#37]
Arfcom pre COVID19 - "big business should stay out of politics"!
Arfcom during COVID19 - "big business has to think about the political fallout"! What a shit show. Gosh forbid .gov and 3M try and work together and come to a compromise that works for all. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:22:16 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not 'extortion' if you have a competing offer ready to go. Yes, that is precisely how this should work. We need the masks more than the Chicoms, right? RIGHT?! So pay the fucking man what he's owed, you cheap bastards. This is how economies function. Doesn't matter that you don' wanna. If it's not actually serious enough to merit paying the high price you're fully capable of paying, sit down & shut the fuck up while he does business with those who will. This is how economies function. You don't threaten him, you don't try to steal his shit, you don't run to the cops & call him a thief. You pay him his goddam money & go about your business. Again, we just blew TWO TRILLION on banker support; people that won't "save a single life" in the simpleton view of the economy that favors nationalization. How much does this "extortion" you describe really amount to, in actual dollars? Again, you're wanting a company to completely cut off its business contacts to do business with YOU ALONE, and probably not long-term, yet you don't think you should make it worth their while? Using guns to get the masks will only result in 3M producing fewer of them in the end, whether they like it or not. We've been through this everywhere socialism has been tried, remember? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I am not sure I even understand their retard logic. So if we stop selling them to other countries we will actually have less here? That makes perfect sense. Currently if I buy a 6 pack of beer and give my buddy 3 bottles I am left with 3. Using their math if I buy a 6 pack but refuse to give my buddy 3 beers then I will somehow end up only have 2 beers. Yea...that makes sense. I can only assume they mean ones made in other countries would not get sent here. Who else are we getting them from, China? No one wants a mask from there right now anyway, Ill take my chances and make them here. I hope folks remember they were willing to screw America during this deal to probably turn a higher profit with non-US sales... There are lots of manufacturers and lots of distribution channels. The question is, is it better for the established markets to operate, or do we need central planning. s it necessary? Is there critical shortage? Other then Cuomo screaming, and hospital employees screaming, is there any real evidence that the supply is constrained? The knee jerk desire to go full central planning in every crisis is fascinating to watch. We definitely need central management of some sort, if only to be able to call bullshit and tell some states they are sitting in a million masks ina warehouse that were delivered last week, but some clerk forgot about. I'm not convinced we need to go full commie. Yes, there’s actually a critical shortage, for US buyers, and yes, 3M and their distributors are facilitating it. According to the director of the Florida Division of Emergency Management what’s happening is that he’s had an order for millons of masks over a month that keeps getting bumped because foreign buyers keep showing up with wads of cash. 3M doesn’t sell directly to customers, including states, and is aware of all the fuckery with their distributors but won’t attempt to help. @Bohr_Adam ETA: https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/florida-official-says-3m-selling-002448142.html Why won't he pay 3M enough to claim them, then? Surely he's allowed to, if they are truly in such short supply...unless of course, he wants to hold 3M to a lower price than their other customers are paying. So you’re fine with a company that sells critical, life saving items extorting American states and hospitals? Endangering American lives in the process? They had an order in place, states and hospitals can’t be expected to keep increasing the amount of money paid any time some previously uninvolved party shows up with a wad of cash. “Hey listen, I know our contract said we sell you xxx amount of masks at xxx amount, but _______ from _______ just showed up and offered double that, so if you want the masks I’m gonna need you to triple what we agreed upon.” Just because some people are too shortsighted to see the situation for the reality it is, either through greed or incompetence, doesn’t mean we all are. @barnbwt It's not 'extortion' if you have a competing offer ready to go. Yes, that is precisely how this should work. We need the masks more than the Chicoms, right? RIGHT?! So pay the fucking man what he's owed, you cheap bastards. This is how economies function. Doesn't matter that you don' wanna. If it's not actually serious enough to merit paying the high price you're fully capable of paying, sit down & shut the fuck up while he does business with those who will. This is how economies function. You don't threaten him, you don't try to steal his shit, you don't run to the cops & call him a thief. You pay him his goddam money & go about your business. Again, we just blew TWO TRILLION on banker support; people that won't "save a single life" in the simpleton view of the economy that favors nationalization. How much does this "extortion" you describe really amount to, in actual dollars? Again, you're wanting a company to completely cut off its business contacts to do business with YOU ALONE, and probably not long-term, yet you don't think you should make it worth their while? Using guns to get the masks will only result in 3M producing fewer of them in the end, whether they like it or not. We've been through this everywhere socialism has been tried, remember?  Your first sentence is fraught with incongruity. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:24:44 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The "proper" way, within existing emergency authorities, to handle this is to make the federal government the lead buyer and control distribution, and for orders to come to them. DOD is best equipped for this. There should be National Guard medical supply liaisons in every region/tracking and reporting supply numbers. The government contracts with 3M, the government sets the price. 3M delivers. 3M can and will still contract with other buyers. This is how we do military procurement (minus the authority to set the price and force the contract). There are more than enough of these products to go around. We just need to get our hands around the problem, properly prioritize distribution based on current stock age levels, and stop pitting hospitals and states against each other. Da Comrade, establish Ceentral Planning Committee, determine quota. We aren't at war, and are narrowing in on 10,000 deaths so far, so why are we already resorting to martial law? The military already has their PPE, because they were willing to pay for priority. What you propose is the nationalization of the entire US healthcare infrastructure so hospitals can buy paper masks at low prices, to stockpile.  God our country is so fucking done. This is "shutting off irrigation to make corn drought-tolerant" level retardation, there's simply no going back. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:27:20 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I owned the company? Considering we are in the midst of a pandemic (which many here either are unable or unwilling to acknowledge) I'd make sure that the needs of my country are met first. If anything, the psychology of this is interesting and entertaining, especially the "muh property/muh rights people/I'd rather see it burn than have the gubmint take it". It's all independence, bravado and from my cold dead hands bullshit until they find themselves needing something from .gov in a time of crisis, whether it's food, medicine, or some financial assistance. I wonder how they will rationalize their independence when they are the ones that are actually in need and the government is the only one that can help. I liked how you dodged the question by saying what you’d do voluntarily rather than how you’d react to being forced into something you don’t want to do by government, and then went on a rant against people whom aren’t fans of big gov. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:28:20 PM EST
[#41]
GD: Fuck the feds
Also GD: I hope the feds push 3M’s shit in. Go government! 
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:29:27 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: GD: Fuck the feds Also GD: I hope the feds push 3M’s shit in. Go government! Fuck them both TBH. but fuck 3M harder for the moment. Ill have a coke. I was on the phone with a 3M employee just now and they said they don't owe U.S. Customers anything. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:31:28 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fuck them both TBH. but fuck 3M harder for the moment. Ill have a coke. I was on the phone with a 3M employee just now and they said they don't owe U.S. Customers anything. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: GD: Fuck the feds Also GD: I hope the feds push 3M’s shit in. Go government! Fuck them both TBH. but fuck 3M harder for the moment. Ill have a coke. I was on the phone with a 3M employee just now and they said they don't owe U.S. Customers anything. What do they owe me?? I use 3M products, they don’t OWE me a damn thing. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:34:49 PM EST
[#44]
Oh look a bunch of people arguing over something none of them were in the room for or have any clue what actually happened pointing fingers.
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:35:44 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Da Comrade, establish Ceentral Planning Committee, determine quota. We aren't at war, and are narrowing in on 10,000 deaths so far, so why are we already resorting to martial law? The military already has their PPE, because they were willing to pay for priority. What you propose is the nationalization of the entire US healthcare infrastructure so hospitals can buy paper masks at low prices, to stockpile. God our country is so fucking done. This is "shutting off irrigation to make corn drought-tolerant" level retardation, there's simply no going back. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The "proper" way, within existing emergency authorities, to handle this is to make the federal government the lead buyer and control distribution, and for orders to come to them. DOD is best equipped for this. There should be National Guard medical supply liaisons in every region/tracking and reporting supply numbers. The government contracts with 3M, the government sets the price. 3M delivers. 3M can and will still contract with other buyers. This is how we do military procurement (minus the authority to set the price and force the contract). There are more than enough of these products to go around. We just need to get our hands around the problem, properly prioritize distribution based on current stock age levels, and stop pitting hospitals and states against each other. Da Comrade, establish Ceentral Planning Committee, determine quota. We aren't at war, and are narrowing in on 10,000 deaths so far, so why are we already resorting to martial law? The military already has their PPE, because they were willing to pay for priority. What you propose is the nationalization of the entire US healthcare infrastructure so hospitals can buy paper masks at low prices, to stockpile. God our country is so fucking done. This is "shutting off irrigation to make corn drought-tolerant" level retardation, there's simply no going back. I outlined the way this should work if we insist the federal government get involved. If we are going to turn medical supply distribution into an effort requiring federal management, it needs federal management. What I propose is what the law allows for. The government contracting with private business for goods and services put to national needs is not Communism. It's literally the way the U.S. government has functioned since the Continental Congress. Arbitrarily telling a company it can't export any more isn't management, it's adding to the existing chaos, as is trying to dictate all production. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:36:41 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Da Comrade, establish Ceentral Planning Committee, determine quota. We aren't at war, and are narrowing in on 10,000 deaths so far, so why are we already resorting to martial law? The military already has their PPE, because they were willing to pay for priority. What you propose is the nationalization of the entire US healthcare infrastructure so hospitals can buy paper masks at low prices, to stockpile. God our country is so fucking done. This is "shutting off irrigation to make corn drought-tolerant" level retardation, there's simply no going back. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The "proper" way, within existing emergency authorities, to handle this is to make the federal government the lead buyer and control distribution, and for orders to come to them. DOD is best equipped for this. There should be National Guard medical supply liaisons in every region/tracking and reporting supply numbers. The government contracts with 3M, the government sets the price. 3M delivers. 3M can and will still contract with other buyers. This is how we do military procurement (minus the authority to set the price and force the contract). There are more than enough of these products to go around. We just need to get our hands around the problem, properly prioritize distribution based on current stock age levels, and stop pitting hospitals and states against each other. Da Comrade, establish Ceentral Planning Committee, determine quota. We aren't at war, and are narrowing in on 10,000 deaths so far, so why are we already resorting to martial law? The military already has their PPE, because they were willing to pay for priority. What you propose is the nationalization of the entire US healthcare infrastructure so hospitals can buy paper masks at low prices, to stockpile. God our country is so fucking done. This is "shutting off irrigation to make corn drought-tolerant" level retardation, there's simply no going back. Yeah, when the right is demanding socialism, we're fucked. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:37:42 PM EST
[#47]
I think we need to look at pandemics like a plane that’s depressurized if we (the pilots) don’t put on our masks first, no amount of masks will save the pax in back. However, banning all exports and basically seizing production I am very much against. I have been dealing with Companies like 3m and Moldex, it would cost Approx 50 million per factory to set up multiple lines for N95-n100 masks because we priced it out, the government inadvertently just terminated our investment.
ETA. Also do any of you fucktards realize where the raw inputs used come from? Answer: From all over the fucking place |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:38:56 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Da Comrade, establish Ceentral Planning Committee, determine quota. We aren't at war, and are narrowing in on 10,000 deaths so far, so why are we already resorting to martial law? The military already has their PPE, because they were willing to pay for priority. What you propose is the nationalization of the entire US healthcare infrastructure so hospitals can buy paper masks at low prices, to stockpile. God our country is so fucking done. This is "shutting off irrigation to make corn drought-tolerant" level retardation, there's simply no going back. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The "proper" way, within existing emergency authorities, to handle this is to make the federal government the lead buyer and control distribution, and for orders to come to them. DOD is best equipped for this. There should be National Guard medical supply liaisons in every region/tracking and reporting supply numbers. The government contracts with 3M, the government sets the price. 3M delivers. 3M can and will still contract with other buyers. This is how we do military procurement (minus the authority to set the price and force the contract). There are more than enough of these products to go around. We just need to get our hands around the problem, properly prioritize distribution based on current stock age levels, and stop pitting hospitals and states against each other. Da Comrade, establish Ceentral Planning Committee, determine quota. We aren't at war, and are narrowing in on 10,000 deaths so far, so why are we already resorting to martial law? The military already has their PPE, because they were willing to pay for priority. What you propose is the nationalization of the entire US healthcare infrastructure so hospitals can buy paper masks at low prices, to stockpile. God our country is so fucking done. This is "shutting off irrigation to make corn drought-tolerant" level retardation, there's simply no going back. The current socioeconomic war we find ourselves embroiled in has less to do with numbers of deaths and more to do with, wait for it, socioeconomic policies and posturing of a hostile foreign nation, China. Thankfully it seems the Trump administration understands this and isn’t taking advice from GD “experts”. China is trying to hang us about the neck until dead and you guys are trying to sell them the rope. Experts, indeed lol. |
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:39:14 PM EST
[#49]
Edited because I fucked up and quoted the wrong person.
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Posted: 4/3/2020 5:43:33 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What do they owe me?? I use 3M products, they don’t OWE me a damn thing. they owe their customers product for money tendered for starters. they owe their host country priority in times of cirises considering all the sweet kickbacks they get. |
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