45/70 deer. Added graphic pics of wound channel page 4 - Page 3

Site Notices

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 45/70 deer. Added graphic pics of wound channel page 4 (Page 3 of 4)

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:10:43 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Ive also seen deer that had no vitals run a long way. the problem i have is how you couldnt find a deer laying in a wide open cut field.

He was with about 12 other deer. I shot him, he leaped high into the air and came down running in high gear. His right front leg hanging down stiffly. He ran straight away so I was hesitant to shoot again as I dont like to gut shoot them and I was certain he was going down. He was running with the other 12 deer and they ran into a group of about 10 more deer. They all ran over a hill, I couldn't see them for about 1.5 seconds, then the came back into view running to the left. I saw a deer running queerly and I was certain it was the one I shot. I watched those deer run a very long ways and cross a fence. I went to go look for blood and did not find any at all. I did not go look on the other side of the hill because I thought I saw him running another direction.

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:11:56 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
soft points have issues as well, again I could probably shoot 100 more deer in the same spot and drop them all in a few yards, they would probably all pump out a lot of blood also.

Like what??? For deer hunting, soft points are just about perfect...

- georgestrings

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:12:56 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
TRACKING - What ever you shoot deer with you will need to be able to follow a blood trail. It always helps to work with someone else because one guy alone tends to become discouraged when not able to determine where the blood trail turns. There are times when deer will lay down then double back. I hunt deer primarily with a bow. I can say from experience that the solution to finding the blood trail when it gets very difficult is to get down on your hands and knees and get close to the grass and look for even the smallest of drops on the sides of grass and brush. When you have a deer that does not fall right there you are usually better off to wait an hour or two and let them bleed out. A woulded deer will usually run a short distance and lay down if you do not push him he will stay there and bleed out if you pursue him too soon it will be a much longer blood trail.

UNDERSTANDING BULLET DESIGN: To transfer energy within the target ANIMAL- bullet design plays a huge role. There is a reason that bullets like Nosler Partition bullets do well on game they are designed to expand the front half of the bullet but retain a heavy solid rear portion of the bullet which penetrates deeply. The Keith style solid will kill but it is like shooting a Full Metal Jacket bullet into something, you get lots of penetration little expansion. Want the deer to drop right now - use an expanding bullet like a hollow point or a bullet like Nosler Partition or the Barnes copper hollowpoint bullets. Want to use the Keith style bullet aim to hit bone break that front shoulder and the deer will go down right there.

P.S. anytime you are ready to throw out that 45-70 just send it to me I'll give it a good home.

Thank you for revealing this to me.

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:14:30 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Shit Happens.....It was you and not the weapon/cartridge.....Get over it. Practice make perfect.

How was it me? Other than my choice to use a 430 grn Hard Cast Keith Bullet. Shot placement was great.

It was totally you - given that bullet choice, you made a crappy shot... Now, had you shot thru the shoulders with that sort of bullet, I guarantee you'd have different results... I've killed literally several hundred deer, and do actually know a little about this - don't be a tard...

- georgestrings

Any bullet put through the bones of both shoulder will put a deer straight down. ETA also I severed his Aorta out of those several hundred deer you have killed you should know what a severed Aorta means.

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:15:23 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What type of bullet?

430 gr. keith type hard cast.

That was a typo 420 Grn cast from a RanchDog bullet mold, which is a Keith Style.

Just as a side note, old Elmer Keith loved the .45-70 with cast bullets for hunting.

He believed that some fast Jacketed hunting rounds tore up too much meat and left a lot of the meat "blood shot".

Elmer said, "With the .45-70, you can eat the meat right up to the hole."

Yes he did, my reasoning for going with this type of bullet.

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:23:27 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Shit Happens.....It was you and not the weapon/cartridge.....Get over it. Practice make perfect.

How was it me? Other than my choice to use a 430 grn Hard Cast Keith Bullet. Shot placement was great.

It was totally you - given that bullet choice, you made a crappy shot... Now, had you shot thru the shoulders with that sort of bullet, I guarantee you'd have different results... I've killed literally several hundred deer, and do actually know a little about this - don't be a tard...

- georgestrings

Any bullet put through the bones of both shoulder will put a deer straight down. ETA also I severed his Aorta out of those several hundred deer you have killed you should know what a severed Aorta means.

I do - I also know you're full of crap here, in a misguided effort to tout the value of .223 on whitetails... In one post you say your shot placement was fine, in another you admit that you were aiming to spine the deer, and missed... I know a load of bullshit when I see it, and you're shoveling it pretty good here...

- georgestrings

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:26:28 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
TRACKING - What ever you shoot deer with you will need to be able to follow a blood trail. It always helps to work with someone else because one guy alone tends to become discouraged when not able to determine where the blood trail turns. There are times when deer will lay down then double back. I hunt deer primarily with a bow. I can say from experience that the solution to finding the blood trail when it gets very difficult is to get down on your hands and knees and get close to the grass and look for even the smallest of drops on the sides of grass and brush. When you have a deer that does not fall right there you are usually better off to wait an hour or two and let them bleed out. A woulded deer will usually run a short distance and lay down if you do not push him he will stay there and bleed out if you pursue him too soon it will be a much longer blood trail.

UNDERSTANDING BULLET DESIGN: To transfer energy within the target ANIMAL- bullet design plays a huge role. There is a reason that bullets like Nosler Partition bullets do well on game they are designed to expand the front half of the bullet but retain a heavy solid rear portion of the bullet which penetrates deeply. The Keith style solid will kill but it is like shooting a Full Metal Jacket bullet into something, you get lots of penetration little expansion. Want the deer to drop right now - use an expanding bullet like a hollow point or a bullet like Nosler Partition or the Barnes copper hollowpoint bullets. Want to use the Keith style bullet aim to hit bone break that front shoulder and the deer will go down right there.

P.S. anytime you are ready to throw out that 45-70 just send it to me I'll give it a good home.

Thank you for revealing this to me.

Well, it seems like you didn't know it, TBH...

- georgestrings

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:29:58 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
I knew exactly what this bullet would do, its not an expander. Its a penetrator. I was actually trying to spine him, but I shot just a bit low. Like I have said I could shoot 100 more deer with the exact same shot placement and may never experience the same thing. The only thing that really surprised me about this is the lack of a blood trail. If there had not been so many deer with him when I shot I would have found him right away. I was apparently watching the wrong deer run, they went out of sight for a second and then came back into view. He ran straight and most of the other deer ran to the left. I saw one running funny and was sure it was him. I walked with in 50 yards of him in the dark on the way back to my truck.

The bullet did its job but the shot placement was not ideal for that bullet to stop the deer in its tracks. The rest of the thread is a combination of trolling (especially the title) for responses and you trying to explain away why you did not recover the dead deer until the next day. Does Texas allow non-expanding bullets for deer? Here in WI, you must use an expanding bullet for deer and bear.

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:34:11 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Shit Happens.....It was you and not the weapon/cartridge.....Get over it. Practice make perfect.

How was it me? Other than my choice to use a 430 grn Hard Cast Keith Bullet. Shot placement was great.

It was totally you - given that bullet choice, you made a crappy shot... Now, had you shot thru the shoulders with that sort of bullet, I guarantee you'd have different results... I've killed literally several hundred deer, and do actually know a little about this - don't be a tard...

- georgestrings

Any bullet put through the bones of both shoulder will put a deer straight down. ETA also I severed his Aorta out of those several hundred deer you have killed you should know what a severed Aorta means.

I do - I also know you're full of crap here, in a misguided effort to tout the value of .223 on whitetails... In one post you say your shot placement was fine, in another you admit that you were aiming to spine the deer, and missed... I know a load of bullshit when I see it, and you're shoveling it pretty good here...

- georgestrings

I did miss the spine, I still placed the bullet squarely in the vitals. Really you should know that. As I have said repeatedly I could shoot another 100 deer exactly they same and not have the same result.

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:38:09 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I knew exactly what this bullet would do, its not an expander. Its a penetrator. I was actually trying to spine him, but I shot just a bit low. Like I have said I could shoot 100 more deer with the exact same shot placement and may never experience the same thing. The only thing that really surprised me about this is the lack of a blood trail. If there had not been so many deer with him when I shot I would have found him right away. I was apparently watching the wrong deer run, they went out of sight for a second and then came back into view. He ran straight and most of the other deer ran to the left. I saw one running funny and was sure it was him. I walked with in 50 yards of him in the dark on the way back to my truck.

The bullet did its job but the shot placement was not ideal for that bullet to stop the deer in its tracks. The rest of the thread is a combination of trolling (especially the title) for responses and you trying to explain away why you did not recover the dead deer until the next day. Does Texas allow non-expanding bullets for deer? Here in WI, you must use an expanding bullet for deer and bear.

Explain away nothing. This is simply the way it happened. Yes we can use FMJ here if we want. Stop a deer in its tracks? I wasn't using a 155 I was using a 45/70.

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:45:59 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
I wasn't using a 155 I was using a 45/70.

Your point is??

By your own admission, you were shooting for its spine and missed by a foot or so. Definitely not the rifle's fault..

A head shot, spine shot along with many shoulder blade shots and some chest shots will stop the deer in its tracks. Even a shot in the ass which takes out the rear legs will stop a deer in its tracks. More often than not, a chest shot will allow the deer to run for some distance. I have cut the aorta and had a deer run several hundred yards but it was the only deer in the field and I never lost sight of it.

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:49:30 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
The shot was good. Went in just in front of right shoulder came out 6" behind left shoulder cut his Aorta and got the top of both lungs.

First time I ever heard of a deer going more than 50 yards with aorta cut! That wound would be no more mortal if done by 50BMG.

Guess have to consider how tough this deer was though.

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:49:35 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Shit Happens.....It was you and not the weapon/cartridge.....Get over it. Practice make perfect.

How was it me? Other than my choice to use a 430 grn Hard Cast Keith Bullet. Shot placement was great.

It was totally you - given that bullet choice, you made a crappy shot... Now, had you shot thru the shoulders with that sort of bullet, I guarantee you'd have different results... I've killed literally several hundred deer, and do actually know a little about this - don't be a tard...

- georgestrings

Any bullet put through the bones of both shoulder will put a deer straight down. ETA also I severed his Aorta out of those several hundred deer you have killed you should know what a severed Aorta means.

I do - I also know you're full of crap here, in a misguided effort to tout the value of .223 on whitetails... In one post you say your shot placement was fine, in another you admit that you were aiming to spine the deer, and missed... I know a load of bullshit when I see it, and you're shoveling it pretty good here...

- georgestrings

I did miss the spine, I still placed the bullet squarely in the vitals. Really you should know that. As I have said repeatedly I could shoot another 100 deer exactly they same and not have the same result.

I know that your shot placement when combined with your bullet choice caused your failure to recover that deer in a prompt manner - regardless of your spin on the matter...

- georgestrings

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:50:42 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The shot was good. Went in just in front of right shoulder came out 6" behind left shoulder cut his Aorta and got the top of both lungs.

And you think a .223 hitting the exact same spot would have dropped him?

Well out of the several deer I have hit in nearly the same spot with a 223 none went more than 30 yards.

With a .45-70, the "perfect shot" in this situation, breaks the shoulder, that wrecks the heart and lungs behind it, but the broken shoulder is what anchors it. You shot that deer as if you were shooting a .223, and that's why it didn't drop as if it were pole-axed.

That said, deer behave differently all of the time. If you think that your shot with a .223 always drops them within 30 yards, you have some lessons to learn. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. I shot a doe with a 3" magnum 12 ga sabot slug (Ohio). It clipped the left shoulder, damaging it, hit both lungs and turned the top half of it's heart into hamburger. It spun around, and I hit it again in the left rear leg, breaking it. It still went 150 yards. My mistake was to not hit the shoulder better, but the deer was running around.

Don't underestimate how hard deer hold onto life. This one was unable to draw a breath, unable to pump blood, had one damaged shoulder and another leg flapping in the breeze.

The .45-70 has killed more deer than you'll ever know. If you had shot it in the shoulder, using the placement uses the advantages of the .45-70 best, you wouldn't be here bitching about it.

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:53:42 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The shot was good. Went in just in front of right shoulder came out 6" behind left shoulder cut his Aorta and got the top of both lungs.

And you think a .223 hitting the exact same spot would have dropped him?

Well out of the several deer I have hit in nearly the same spot with a 223 none went more than 30 yards.

With a .45-70, the "perfect shot" in this situation, breaks the shoulder, that wrecks the heart and lungs behind it, but the broken shoulder is what anchors it. You shot that deer as if you were shooting a .223, and that's why it didn't drop as if it were pole-axed.

That said, deer behave differently all of the time. If you think that your shot with a .223 always drops them within 30 yards, you have some lessons to learn. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. I shot a doe with a 3" magnum 12 ga sabot slug (Ohio). It clipped the left shoulder, damaging it, hit both lungs and turned the top half of it's heart into hamburger. It spun around, and I hit it again in the left rear leg, breaking it. It still went 150 yards. My mistake was to not hit the shoulder better, but the deer was running around.

Don't underestimate how hard deer hold onto life. This one was unable to draw a breath, unable to pump blood, had one damaged shoulder and another leg flapping in the breeze.

The .45-70 has killed more deer than you'll ever know. If you had shot it in the shoulder, using the placement uses the advantages of the .45-70 best, you wouldn't be here bitching about it.

Exactly - the OP most likely knows this, but is just being a tard...

- georgestrings

Posted: 12/26/2011 8:04:26 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I wasn't using a 155 I was using a 45/70.

Your point is??

By your own admission, you were shooting for its spine and missed by a foot or so. Definitely not the rifle's fault..

A head shot, spine shot along with many shoulder blade shots and some chest shots will stop the deer in its tracks. Even a shot in the ass which takes out the rear legs will stop a deer in its tracks. More often than not, a chest shot will allow the deer to run for some distance. I have cut the aorta and had a deer run several hundred yards but it was the only deer in the field and I never lost sight of it.

a foot? I missed the spine by less than an inch.

Posted: 12/26/2011 8:06:17 AM EDT

[#17]

FWIW, I used to cull deer for farms with a .22-250, but have also taken deer with a .220Swift, .223, .243, .260, .270, .280, 7.62x39, .30-30, .308, .30-06, .300WM, .338WM, .35Rem, .45-70, besides a few others I've probably forgotten to mention... I've also taken well over 100 with 12ga deer slugs, a fair amount with .50cal BP rifles, and a few with pistols in .44mag and .454Casull - not to mention around 30 with a compound bow...

As I said, I know bullshit when I see it... These days, I use .300WM for pretty much all of my rifle hunting, and it never fails me - of course, for whitetails I use 150gr CoreLokts - which are appropriate for *my* shot placement... I haven't had to track a deer with that setup yet - and we get some pretty large whitetails here in upstate NY...

I used to use Brenneke slugs for shotgun hunting, and to be consistantly effective, you had to smash shoulders with them, since they wouldn't open up - I've since switched to a fully rifled barrel, and Federal sabotted slugs with BarnesX bullets for my shotgun needs - crushes 'em, without needing to smash shoulders...

- georgestrings

Posted: 12/26/2011 8:06:54 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The shot was good. Went in just in front of right shoulder came out 6" behind left shoulder cut his Aorta and got the top of both lungs.

And you think a .223 hitting the exact same spot would have dropped him?

Well out of the several deer I have hit in nearly the same spot with a 223 none went more than 30 yards.

With a .45-70, the "perfect shot" in this situation, breaks the shoulder, that wrecks the heart and lungs behind it, but the broken shoulder is what anchors it. You shot that deer as if you were shooting a .223, and that's why it didn't drop as if it were pole-axed.

That said, deer behave differently all of the time. If you think that your shot with a .223 always drops them within 30 yards, you have some lessons to learn. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. I shot a doe with a 3" magnum 12 ga sabot slug (Ohio). It clipped the left shoulder, damaging it, hit both lungs and turned the top half of it's heart into hamburger. It spun around, and I hit it again in the left rear leg, breaking it. It still went 150 yards. My mistake was to not hit the shoulder better, but the deer was running around.

Don't underestimate how hard deer hold onto life. This one was unable to draw a breath, unable to pump blood, had one damaged shoulder and another leg flapping in the breeze.

The .45-70 has killed more deer than you'll ever know. If you had shot it in the shoulder, using the placement uses the advantages of the .45-70 best, you wouldn't be here bitching about it.

I never said a 223 would drop deer with in 30 yards everytime nor did I say every deer I have shot with a 223 has dropped with in 30 yards. I have had a coupel run a 100 yards or so. And I am not bitching, this is just an observation.

Posted: 12/26/2011 8:07:53 AM EDT

[#19]

Get an H&R Buffalo Classic and a traditional brass scope.

Then get the .45-120 chamber reamer through GrayBeards H&R forum and with a couple of slow, heavily oiled twists to deepen the chamber out. Then you have heap big bad deer medicine. And also be ready if they reintroduce T'Rex back in the USofA.

Posted: 12/26/2011 8:12:05 AM EDT

[#20]

Any round you put in the vitals will generally kill a deer quickly 100% of the time. If you can guarantee every time you shoot a deer that you wont miss your exact aim point by an inch or two, my hat is off to you. You are a better man than me.

george I wouldnt use corelokts I have seen more failures with that bullet in large calibers like your 300 than any other bullet. YMMV. The only reason I would ever think about using a belted magnum for deer is if I decided to take up 1k yard deer plinking.

Posted: 12/26/2011 8:14:06 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Get an H&R Buffalo Classic and a traditional brass scope.

http://www.fototime.com/422A6C7EF25AA74/orig.jpg

Then get the .45-120 chamber reamer through GrayBeards H&R forum and with a couple of slow, heavily oiled twists to deepen the chamber out. Then you have heap big bad deer medicine. And also be ready if they reintroduce T'Rex back in the USofA.

45/120! This could be the answer!

Posted: 12/26/2011 8:14:35 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
OP, don't let them get to you. I've killed tons of game & had lots that have run hundreds of yards with no heart, or holes through their lungs. I worked my way up to 300 Win Mag, looking to anchor them, but finally gave up & went back to 308. I used to eradicate deer & hogs from a 5,000 citrus grove operation & learned tons. Critters, not you, determine whether they go down or not. Last straw was when I shot a 90lb doe broadside & me & my buddies watched her run 300yds with no heart & damaged lungs.

I lost a deer overnight one time from a double lung shot with very little blood to track,

It was a fast shot with no option ,

Now the only way I shoot a deer is in the head. They simply cannot run without a brain.

I *used* to take headshots, 'til I spent a couple of days with a buddy chasing after a doe on a farm we were culling on - with it's jaw blown off... My friend and I are both pretty good shots - but deer move their heads pretty fast, and quite suddenly - and that's exactly what happened... After that, I started using larger calibers with bullets that will group well, consistantly expand - yet hold together - and aim for vitals - it's proven to be a more reliable method of cleanly taking deer...

- georgestrings

Posted: 12/26/2011 8:22:42 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The shot was good. Went in just in front of right shoulder came out 6" behind left shoulder cut his Aorta and got the top of both lungs.

And you think a .223 hitting the exact same spot would have dropped him?

Perhaps the .45-70 didn't expand?

.223 may create a larger permanent wound cavity.

didnt expand a bit. .45 entry hole and .55 exit hole

That doesn't seem too surprising.

Posted: 12/26/2011 8:24:00 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii70/Emptyinmymag/deervitals.png

Any round you put in the vitals will generally kill a deer quickly 100% of the time. If you can guarantee every time you shoot a deer that you wont miss your exact aim point by an inch or two, my hat is off to you. You are a better man than me.

george I wouldnt use corelokts I have seen more failures with that bullet in large calibers like your 300 than any other bullet. YMMV. The only reason I would ever think about using a belted magnum for deer is if I decided to take up 1k yard deer plinking.

While I agree with much of your above post, that vital area is good for anything BUT non-expanding bullets... Sure, the deer will die, but you won't get consistant timely recoveries by hitting those vitals with non-expanding bullets...

No doubt the .300WM is overkill for whitetails, but I wanted one rifle to cover all my North American hunting needs, and the .300WM has filled that bill pretty well... CoreLokts have been 100% for whitetails *for me*, and group well out of my rifle... If/when I experience a failure, I'll re-evaluate their choice... For anything larger than whitetails, I'll use different ammo - most likely, a Hornady Heavy Magnum - although whitetails are the bulk of my game pursuits...

- georgestrings

Posted: 12/26/2011 8:55:59 AM EDT

[#25]

I'm so hungry I could eat the asshole out of a...oh wait.

Posted: 12/26/2011 9:14:06 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Good for buffalo but not deer?

As hard as it is for some to understand, that is correct. The 45/70 penetrates well, so with a large animal like a buffalo, the bullet expends almost all of it's energy cutting a LONG permanent wound cavity. On a deer, most of that is wasted as it zips right through it carrying much of its energy down range. With a lighter faster bullet designed to expand/fragment, you create a larger permanent cavity in the first 15" where you want it for smaller animals.

Posted: 12/26/2011 9:43:02 AM EDT

[#27]

So to sum it up you were tryin to "spine it" and shot low....

Bad shot = 47/70 sucks and 223 is better.

Using that logic I am going to get rid of all of my guns and buy a slingshot.

Posted: 12/26/2011 9:45:50 AM EDT

[#28]

They used .45-70 to kill Buffalo all the time in the old West.

YEP! Not good enough for Deer!

Posted: 12/26/2011 9:56:32 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What type of bullet?

430 gr. keith type hard cast.

That was a typo 420 Grn cast from a RanchDog bullet mold, which is a Keith Style.

Just as a side note, old Elmer Keith loved the .45-70 with cast bullets for hunting.

He believed that some fast Jacketed hunting rounds tore up too much meat and left a lot of the meat "blood shot".

Elmer said, "With the .45-70, you can eat the meat right up to the hole."

Elmer has a little bit of a point there about torn up meat. I've seen a .270 tear up and leave bloodshot ridiculous ammoonts of meat on elk. It's always the result (or near enough to be called "always" anyway

) of a bone strike on its way through the animal. Shoulder blades typically make a hell of a mess but a good bounce off the inside of a rib can lead to alot of meat loss as well. Same goes for '06, 7 mag, .308, etc.

It's just one of those things. Even if your shot placement is perfect on entry, sometimes the universe decides that your bullet will go a really weird direction after penetrating. Other times, the animal has enough reflexive response that it takes off running on pure adrenaline and forces you to work just a bit harder for dinner.

It's all good though, the whiskey is a little sweeter in camp and the snow is a little prettier and that camp chair is more comfortable than any throne of power ever dreamt of being.

Posted: 12/26/2011 10:14:58 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
george I wouldnt use corelokts I have seen more failures with that bullet in large calibers like your 300 than any other bullet. YMMV. The only reason I would ever think about using a belted magnum for deer is if I decided to take up 1k yard deer plinking.

I have killed a metric buttload of deer with a 7mm Rem Mag from close enough to hit it over the head with the buttstock to several hundred yards out. I have used Remington Core-Lokt rounds nearly exclusively from .30-30 to .300 Win Mag and can count the times on one hand where the bullet fragmented. I normally have very little wasted meat.

Posted: 12/26/2011 10:24:50 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Good for buffalo but not deer?

Apparently...

Posted: 12/26/2011 11:01:48 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Good for buffalo but not deer?

As hard as it is for some to understand, that is correct. The 45/70 penetrates well, so with a large animal like a buffalo, the bullet expends almost all of it's energy cutting a LONG permanent wound cavity. On a deer, most of that is wasted as it zips right through it carrying much of its energy down range. With a lighter faster bullet designed to expand/fragment, you create a larger permanent cavity in the first 15" where you want it for smaller animals.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/slow_vs_fast.jpg

The factors more important than what you're citing above in the OP's case are shot placement and bullet choice - it's not hard to understand by anyone with a fair amount of big game hunting experience...

- georgestrings

Posted: 12/26/2011 11:04:19 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
george I wouldnt use corelokts I have seen more failures with that bullet in large calibers like your 300 than any other bullet. YMMV. The only reason I would ever think about using a belted magnum for deer is if I decided to take up 1k yard deer plinking.

I have killed a metric buttload of deer with a 7mm Rem Mag from close enough to hit it over the head with the buttstock to several hundred yards out. I have used Remington Core-Lokt rounds nearly exclusively from .30-30 to .300 Win Mag and can count the times on one hand where the bullet fragmented. I normally have very little wasted meat.

That is good, I am glad you had good fortune with them. I have personally had coreloks fail on me with 243 and 30'06. I have been right next to the shooter to witness them fail with 7mm Rem Mag and 300 Win mag. I have also personally killed dozens of deer with them and they worked flawlessly. I choose not to use them anymore. As always YMMV.

Posted: 12/26/2011 11:06:51 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
george I wouldnt use corelokts I have seen more failures with that bullet in large calibers like your 300 than any other bullet. YMMV. The only reason I would ever think about using a belted magnum for deer is if I decided to take up 1k yard deer plinking.

I have killed a metric buttload of deer with a 7mm Rem Mag from close enough to hit it over the head with the buttstock to several hundred yards out. I have used Remington Core-Lokt rounds nearly exclusively from .30-30 to .300 Win Mag and can count the times on one hand where the bullet fragmented. I normally have very little wasted meat.

Yeah, they've worked pretty well for me in several calibers, and a fair amount of deer... When I 1st got my .300WM, I bought it new and wanted some cheap ammo for barrel break-in, so I bought some Remington Green Box Core-Lokts... then I found out that they actually grouped pretty good out of my rifle - consistantly under 1MOA with a 700BDL-DM... So, I decided to try 'em out on whitetails - and the results have been excellent... I'm a picky shooter, though - and haven't made any bad hits with them, yet...

- georgestrings

Posted: 12/26/2011 11:07:51 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Good for buffalo but not deer?

As hard as it is for some to understand, that is correct. The 45/70 penetrates well, so with a large animal like a buffalo, the bullet expends almost all of it's energy cutting a LONG permanent wound cavity. On a deer, most of that is wasted as it zips right through it carrying much of its energy down range. With a lighter faster bullet designed to expand/fragment, you create a larger permanent cavity in the first 15" where you want it for smaller animals.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/slow_vs_fast.jpg

The factors more important than what you're citing above in the OP's case are shot placement and bullet choice - it's not hard to understand by anyone with a fair amount of big game hunting experience...

- georgestrings

The deer running that far was a FLUKE. Non Expanding bullet or not. I have had the exact same thing happen with a 150 grn 30'06 SST only the exit wound was larger. We found a little bit of blood where I hit the deer and then nothing. Found the deer laying in the trail many hundreds of yards away. That deer ran further than this 45/70 deer ran. 45 caliber heavy weight bullets in solid design have been putting game animals big and small in the dirt for hundreds of years.

Posted: 12/26/2011 11:15:19 AM EDT

[#36]

I would chalk this one up to "shit happens", not .45-70 not being enough round for deer.

Posted: 12/26/2011 11:17:46 AM EDT

[#37]

you can kill grizz with the 45-70

Posted: 12/26/2011 11:30:52 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Good for buffalo but not deer?

As hard as it is for some to understand, that is correct. The 45/70 penetrates well, so with a large animal like a buffalo, the bullet expends almost all of it's energy cutting a LONG permanent wound cavity. On a deer, most of that is wasted as it zips right through it carrying much of its energy down range. With a lighter faster bullet designed to expand/fragment, you create a larger permanent cavity in the first 15" where you want it for smaller animals.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/slow_vs_fast.jpg

The factors more important than what you're citing above in the OP's case are shot placement and bullet choice - it's not hard to understand by anyone with a fair amount of big game hunting experience...

- georgestrings

Really, shot placement counts? Good thing we got experts like you here to school us.

That's a NSS and has been already discussed. If the bullet path included the aorta and lungs as it did here, a permanent wound channel of 4" diameter vs .55" makes a huge difference. Anybody with any amount of ballistics knowledge would understand that.

Posted: 12/26/2011 1:04:53 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Good for buffalo but not deer?

As hard as it is for some to understand, that is correct. The 45/70 penetrates well, so with a large animal like a buffalo, the bullet expends almost all of it's energy cutting a LONG permanent wound cavity. On a deer, most of that is wasted as it zips right through it carrying much of its energy down range. With a lighter faster bullet designed to expand/fragment, you create a larger permanent cavity in the first 15" where you want it for smaller animals.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/slow_vs_fast.jpg

The factors more important than what you're citing above in the OP's case are shot placement and bullet choice - it's not hard to understand by anyone with a fair amount of big game hunting experience...

- georgestrings

The deer running that far was a FLUKE. Non Expanding bullet or not. I have had the exact same thing happen with a 150 grn 30'06 SST only the exit wound was larger. We found a little bit of blood where I hit the deer and then nothing. Found the deer laying in the trail many hundreds of yards away. That deer ran further than this 45/70 deer ran. 45 caliber heavy weight bullets in solid design have been putting game animals big and small in the dirt for hundreds of years.

It wasn't exactly a "fluke" - if you were intent on using a hard cast bullet, you *should* have been aiming for shoulder, not spine... By picking a narrow target with a bullet you used on purpose, then missing it - you set yourself up for failure, but are being too stubborn to admit it...

- georgestrings

Posted: 12/26/2011 1:08:54 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Good for buffalo but not deer?

As hard as it is for some to understand, that is correct. The 45/70 penetrates well, so with a large animal like a buffalo, the bullet expends almost all of it's energy cutting a LONG permanent wound cavity. On a deer, most of that is wasted as it zips right through it carrying much of its energy down range. With a lighter faster bullet designed to expand/fragment, you create a larger permanent cavity in the first 15" where you want it for smaller animals.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/slow_vs_fast.jpg

The factors more important than what you're citing above in the OP's case are shot placement and bullet choice - it's not hard to understand by anyone with a fair amount of big game hunting experience...

- georgestrings

Really, shot placement counts? Good thing we got experts like you here to school us.

That's a NSS and has been already discussed. If the bullet path included the aorta and lungs as it did here, a permanent wound channel of 4" diameter vs .55" makes a huge difference. Anybody with any amount of ballistics knowledge would understand that.

Yeah, and anyone with decent big game experience - and common sense - would know that you aim for shoulders when using a non-expanding bullet - you break down structure... just like a field-tipped arrow thru the lungs of a deer doesn't work so great...

Now, go back to looking at pictures, and leave hunting talk to those who actually know something about it...

- georgestrings

Posted: 12/26/2011 4:25:14 PM EDT

[#41]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okn_OS9twok&feature=relmfu&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZrvUOQKd0ok

This deer ran 50+ yards with a perfect broadside double lung from a 50 cal that put a fist size exit wound in it. You'll need to log into youtube to view the video.

Some deer drop and some don't. I've had bucks or does go 100 yards and I've had some drop 5 yards with the same shot placement.

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:15:35 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
george I wouldnt use corelokts I have seen more failures with that bullet in large calibers like your 300 than any other bullet. YMMV. The only reason I would ever think about using a belted magnum for deer is if I decided to take up 1k yard deer plinking.

I have killed a metric buttload of deer with a 7mm Rem Mag from close enough to hit it over the head with the buttstock to several hundred yards out. I have used Remington Core-Lokt rounds nearly exclusively from .30-30 to .300 Win Mag and can count the times on one hand where the bullet fragmented. I normally have very little wasted meat.

That is good, I am glad you had good fortune with them. I have personally had coreloks fail on me with 243 and 30'06. I have been right next to the shooter to witness them fail with 7mm Rem Mag and 300 Win mag. I have also personally killed dozens of deer with them and they worked flawlessly. I choose not to use them anymore. As always YMMV.

I have no dog in this fight though it is entertaining. I just want to add that a buddy at work went in an Elk hunt this year. His hunting buddy was using Coreloks in 30'06. Hit a elk at ~300-400 yards in the shoulder. He said he saw the round impact and the elk moved as if he had been hit and then ran away. They tried to catch up but they never did. Every hill they went over the elk was even further away....

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:18:01 PM EDT

[#43]

bobcats cover them up like that..
I had the same thing happen with a bow shot..
I always tell my wife if I dont make it home before dark, find me before they eat my asshole..

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:25:34 PM EDT

[#44]

I shot a buck with a .243..
It kicked like a mule and ran like it was going to fall over...
I never found it..
Shit happens sometimes.

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:35:16 PM EDT

[#45]

Honey badger got your kill....

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:41:00 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Shit Happens.....It was you and not the weapon/cartridge.....Get over it. Practice make perfect.

How was it me? Other than my choice to use a 430 grn Hard Cast Keith Bullet. Shot placement was great.

Meh.....You chose the ill-performing bullet......You chose poorly.

Might want to bone-up on your tracking skill-set too.

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:46:34 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The shot was good. Went in just in front of right shoulder came out 6" behind left shoulder cut his Aorta and got the top of both lungs.

And you think a .223 hitting the exact same spot would have dropped him?

Well out of the several deer I have hit in nearly the same spot with a 223 none went more than 30 yards.

Hmmm...

I suppose a high velocity round may create more of a wound channel.

This thread is pretty much a troll thread, I could shoot 100 more deer in the exact same place and not have the same result. I started this thread for the same reason I have done my 223 vs deer threads. People don't really have a clue what round does what in deer. There are no absolutes when you shoot something. These results were not, what I was expecting at all. First deer I shot with 45/70.

That's not something you usually want to admit.

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:50:57 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Shit Happens.....It was you and not the weapon/cartridge.....Get over it. Practice make perfect.

How was it me? Other than my choice to use a 430 grn Hard Cast Keith Bullet. Shot placement was great.

Meh.....You chose the ill-performing bullet......You chose poorly.

Might want to bone-up on your tracking skill-set too.

Are you that stupid? You don't pursue a wounded animal that has run off when you have no indication of the type of hit you got. There was no blood trail I could find in the light I had. You back out and let the animal die. If you push it, it could travel forever and you never find it.

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:53:55 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The shot was good. Went in just in front of right shoulder came out 6" behind left shoulder cut his Aorta and got the top of both lungs.

And you think a .223 hitting the exact same spot would have dropped him?

Well out of the several deer I have hit in nearly the same spot with a 223 none went more than 30 yards.

Hmmm...

I suppose a high velocity round may create more of a wound channel.

This thread is pretty much a troll thread, I could shoot 100 more deer in the exact same place and not have the same result. I started this thread for the same reason I have done my 223 vs deer threads. People don't really have a clue what round does what in deer. There are no absolutes when you shoot something. These results were not, what I was expecting at all. First deer I shot with 45/70.

That's not something you usually want to admit.

Not a troll thread per-say. Everything I said is true. I just knew the type of reaction I would get and I wrote the title in jest. Obviously a 45/70 is more than enough gun for deer. This thread did not disappoint ignorance abounds.

Posted: 12/26/2011 8:26:24 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The shot was good. Went in just in front of right shoulder came out 6" behind left shoulder cut his Aorta and got the top of both lungs.

And you think a .223 hitting the exact same spot would have dropped him?

Well out of the several deer I have hit in nearly the same spot with a 223 none went more than 30 yards.

Hmmm...

I suppose a high velocity round may create more of a wound channel.

This thread is pretty much a troll thread, I could shoot 100 more deer in the exact same place and not have the same result. I started this thread for the same reason I have done my 223 vs deer threads. People don't really have a clue what round does what in deer. There are no absolutes when you shoot something. These results were not, what I was expecting at all. First deer I shot with 45/70.

That's not something you usually want to admit.

Not a troll thread per-say. Everything I said is true. I just knew the type of reaction I would get and I wrote the title in jest. Obviously a 45/70 is more than enough gun for deer. This thread did not disappoint ignorance abounds.

It would be much easier to figure out what is really going on in this "troll" thread if the story didn't keep changing. OP, did you even shoot at a deer with a 45/70 or was this all hypothetical make-believe??? You seem to be such a fanboy of using .223 on deer (for whatever reason) that I can't imagine you taking such a "risk" using a very large bullet. Seems to me you really enjoy stirring the pot more than anything.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 45/70 deer. Added graphic pics of wound channel page 4 (Page 3 of 4)

General » General Discussion

Warning

Confirm Action

About AR15.COM

Stay Connected

Newsletter

Contact Us