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Posted: 9/9/2017 9:47:50 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Probably one of the indoor ranges close to me. Gotta get some ammo and get back from Harvey 1st. Thanks for the mag link. Why were they made as 30 rounders? For Illinois or something? ] |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 9:48:31 AM EDT
[#2]
I still have a 2,000 round can of factory FN SS192.
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Posted: 9/9/2017 9:55:40 AM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 9/9/2017 10:45:34 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote History |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 11:07:08 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just ordered 500 rds of the American eagle and 500 of the blue tipped FN stuff. Thank goodness for PSA and the sale. ?? |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 11:13:21 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wait...you really think that if the police came and said "dear Arf member,we need help shooting looters" that having to use personal ammunition is somehow a stumbling block? There are 100,000 people holding a billion rounds of ammo on here waiting for the off chance that rioting occurs in their small town whose largest civil disturbance was a football game brawl in 1977. 
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Posted: 9/9/2017 11:34:16 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I believe it could be. Here is the semi auto bolt. http://www.57center.com/uploaded/images/Parts/Bolt%20Assembly.jpg500x4000.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What does the AR57 bolt look like? Wondering if it can be machined to work with a lightning link??  http://www.57center.com/uploaded/images/Parts/Bolt%20Assembly.jpg500x4000.jpg 
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Posted: 9/9/2017 11:41:58 AM EDT
[#8]
I want a better sling option.
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Posted: 9/9/2017 11:56:17 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They used to have it at $15 per box but lately it's been $18....Im waiting to see if it goes back to $15 before I buy another case Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Just ordered 500 rds of the American eagle and 500 of the blue tipped FN stuff. Thank goodness for PSA and the sale. ?? AE, is for dirt shooting. 
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Posted: 9/9/2017 12:28:35 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is far too expensive on ammo. It's also very hard to handload because the cases are coated with some secret squirrel dry lube that often gets lost if you clean the cases. It's a shame, because you can use a hollowed out magazine body to catch spent brass in so you wouldn't lose them. I'd consider getting a PS90 if it were chambered in 22 TCM, since it's not a giant pain to handload, giving you cheap ammo. Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is far too expensive on ammo. It's also very hard to handload because the cases are coated with some secret squirrel dry lube that often gets lost if you clean the cases. It's a shame, because you can use a hollowed out magazine body to catch spent brass in so you wouldn't lose them. I'd consider getting a PS90 if it were chambered in 22 TCM, since it's not a giant pain to handload, giving you cheap ammo. Reloading the 5.7x28 isn't hard, it's just you MUST be careful. Use a powder that's suitable, True Blue (NOT Blue Dot) doesn't pressure "spike" like some other powders, some powders as you approach maximum loads spike dramatically (DANGEROUSLY) Also, keep in mind you can't "read" the fired cases to watch for over pressure like most cartridges, the first indicator of over pressure is usually a shiny ring appearing INSIDE the brass where the case is stretching and beginning to separate. Stay WAY below maximum loads, because of the tiny case and the pressure the round operates at (50,000+) there isnt much (ANY) room for error. For reloading light weight bullets are your friend, 40gr and below. You can easily (and safely) duplicate the FN SS197 (Blue Tip) load The coating is easily protected, wash the cases with a Simple Green solution, you can find several procedures on the 'net. You need to use QUALITY Reloading Dies! Some of the major brands that you might already use aren't so good with 5.7x28, the one brand of Die that most agree is the best is CH4D. Not Cheap and a several month wait. .22 TCM isn't in the same class as 5.7x28. Quoted:
I want a better sling option. 
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Posted: 9/9/2017 6:54:37 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryCan you expand on why you say this?
They are pretty close performance wise. Bullet selection is more limited for TCM though, especially the 9R version. |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 7:06:30 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryI like the idea of that. Does it make reloading a little easier?
But personally I find it ugly. I like the iconic look of a P90. |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 7:23:13 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you expand on why you say this? They are pretty close performance wise. Bullet selection is more limited for TCM though, especially the 9R version. Quote HistoryQuoted:
They are pretty close performance wise. Bullet selection is more limited for TCM though, especially the 9R version. Box of truth I'd love one for a coyote/coon gun I think if you could get a 30 grain Barnes bullet going 2200 fps you might have something if it can reliably penatrate 12-18" |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 8:03:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks pretty close to me. Box of truth I'd love one for a coyote/coon gun I think if you could get a 30 grain Barnes bullet going 2200 fps you might have something if it can reliably penatrate 12-18" 
.22 TCM 
Maximum Overall length.... 5.7x28 - 1.594 .22 TCM - 1.265 The .22 TCM cannot reach the velocities of the 5.7x28 for several reasons, one of which is its crippled by its shorter overall length. It cannot use the more efficient bullets used by the 5.7x28. The weapons that utilize the .22 TCM are heavier, larger, don't hold as many rounds. It also doesn't have anywhere near the penetration of the 5.7x28, not even close. There are many more companies offering 5.7x28 than .22 TCM. |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 8:16:27 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
5.7x28 https://i.imgur.com/Hcif6gx.jpg .22 TCM https://i.imgur.com/CL7P7Ep.jpg Maximum Overall length.... 5.7x28 - 1.594 .22 TCM - 1.265 The .22 TCM cannot reach the velocities of the 5.7x28 for several reasons, one of which is its crippled by its shorter overall length. It cannot use the more efficient bullets used by the 5.7x28. The weapons that utilize the .22 TCM are heavier, larger, don't hold as many rounds. It also doesn't have anywhere near the penetration of the 5.7x28, not even close. There are many more companies offering 5.7x28 than .22 TCM. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Looks pretty close to me. Box of truth I'd love one for a coyote/coon gun I think if you could get a 30 grain Barnes bullet going 2200 fps you might have something if it can reliably penatrate 12-18" https://i.imgur.com/Hcif6gx.jpg .22 TCM https://i.imgur.com/CL7P7Ep.jpg Maximum Overall length.... 5.7x28 - 1.594 .22 TCM - 1.265 The .22 TCM cannot reach the velocities of the 5.7x28 for several reasons, one of which is its crippled by its shorter overall length. It cannot use the more efficient bullets used by the 5.7x28. The weapons that utilize the .22 TCM are heavier, larger, don't hold as many rounds. It also doesn't have anywhere near the penetration of the 5.7x28, not even close. There are many more companies offering 5.7x28 than .22 TCM.  Failed To Load Title Something like a a Glock 21 in 22tcm might be interesting. If they are getting 2100fps with a 40 jhp out of a handgun just think what they could do with either a bonded 40 grain so, or a lighter Barnes bullet. Iirc the 5.7 gets the same velocity, but with lighter bullets Eta, looks like 34 grain bullets from the 5.7 go about 50fps faster  The Black Dragon Fang 5.7x28mm! |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 8:21:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Tested the 22tcm and 5.7 against some steel a while back. Also included some chrono numbers.
Here....... |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 8:37:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It might help if you used real world numbers 
Link to ELITE AMMUNITION WEB SITE...http://www.eliteammunition.com/ammunition.html#!/ProtecTOR-I/p/51287008/category=13357850 Link to ARMSCOR WEB SITE....http://armscor.com/ammo/pistol/ |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 8:42:00 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh, you mean like the photos I posted from the ammo MANUFACTURERS WEB SITES Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It might help if you used real world numbers |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 8:46:37 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, I mean numbers that happen in the real world And you think Armscor is publishing SLOWER than actual numbers? Found the YouTube video of Buffman testing Elite S4M (his average was slightly slower than mine)  Elite Ammunitions, 5.7x28mm, S4M Velocity Test, FiveSeveN, Take 2 |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 9:06:28 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
O.K. I've clocked Elite S4M at an average speed out of my FiveseveN of 2,418 fps. Buffman has Youtube videos reaching IIRC slightly faster speeds. REAL WORLD NUMBERS And you think Armscor is publishing SLOWER than actual numbers? Found the YouTube video of Buffman testing Elite S4M (his average was slightly slower than mine)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qz7JBECpvIYes armscor is obviously posting lower numbers than everyone is really getting. That 28 grain bullet you posted also does not reliably hit 12" after 4 layers of denim. |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 9:22:09 PM EDT
[#21]
Here is a video of S4M going through 4 layers of denim penetrating 11" , 12.5", and 15"
 Elite Ammunition S4M Ballistic Test w/Level IIIa Body Armor, Five-seveN & PS90 |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 9:23:25 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is a video of S4M going through 4 layers of denim penetrating 11" , 12.5", and 15" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxBFtilO_C4 |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 9:32:58 PM EDT
[#23]
Really?
It's an average of 12.83333333" As I ve stated before I could care less whether you or anyone else likes the round or not, anyone can clearly see the .22 TCM can't reach the velocities or penetration of the 5.7x28 and now that Elite is selling DevestaTOR to "Joe Citizen" it's not even close! DevestaTOR out of the FiveseveN penetrates four Level II vests AND a CRISAT plate. |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 9:42:47 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, it doesn't reliably reach 12". Seems very erratic. |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 9:47:27 PM EDT
[#25]
Kinda a ford vs chevy argument. Neither one is ever going to convince the other.
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Posted: 9/9/2017 9:50:29 PM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 9/9/2017 9:53:51 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://i.imgur.com/WLaAFXf.jpg |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 10:08:22 PM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 9/9/2017 10:14:15 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://i.imgur.com/WLaAFXf.jpg |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 10:16:31 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://i.imgur.com/WLaAFXf.jpg |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 10:26:10 PM EDT
[#31]
Works well in that package.
Maneuvers easy. |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 10:32:17 PM EDT
[#32]
So far, all the AR57s posted have been gen1s. Are they better for some reason? (Besides the non-fluted barrel that can be cut).
AFAIK, the internals are the same. Right? |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 10:46:28 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Really? It's an average of 12.83333333" As I ve stated before I could care less whether you or anyone else likes the round or not, anyone can clearly see the .22 TCM can't reach the velocities or penetration of the 5.7x28 and now that Elite is selling DevestaTOR to "Joe Citizen" it's not even close! DevestaTOR out of the FiveseveN penetrates four Level II vests AND a CRISAT plate. What's the velocity of 5.7s using 40 grain bullets? The .22tcm is new with one loading. I see a bunch of potential with it. Especially in glocks, m&ps, etc. I'm still waiting for you to post 5.7 loadings that reliably meet the FBI standard 12-18" through bare gel + the 3 barriers that I've asked for in a different thread. |
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Posted: 9/9/2017 11:33:18 PM EDT
[#34]
READ!
Do you think your vaunted .22 TCM can pull off shooting through ONE Level II vest? DevestaTOR will EASILY do it. Hell, even T6B will do it. Frankly I don't give a shit about the FBI Standard! My duty rifle is loaded with Hornady .223 40 gr TAP Urban. I can pretty much assure you it won't go 12" but it will leave a permanent cavity the size of a grapefruit around 5" in. Think that won't stop a dirt bag instantly? The load is in use by several large SWAT units around the country. The track record is a hit to the torso and their down, body bag down. I do carry TAP Barrier in case I need to engage a vehicle. |
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Posted: 9/10/2017 12:02:42 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've been considering that Hera furniture. How do you like it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: http://i.imgur.com/WLaAFXf.jpg I'm going to have a very similar setup shortly, but I won't have a mag to catch spent cases.
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Posted: 9/10/2017 12:30:49 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't have the forward grip, but I really like the thumbhole stock. For, um, reasons. I'm going to have a very similar setup shortly, but I won't have a mag to catch spent cases.Matches the JMT 80 lower. 
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Posted: 9/10/2017 1:49:57 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I actually cut up a 30rd PMag for a brass catcher. Being in Colorado, it was not an easy decision to make, but I think it was worth it. Matches the JMT 80 lower. But I have a tactical liquor bag to catch the empties. You know....the black one. |
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Posted: 9/10/2017 2:14:01 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The one in my pic is a gutted GI mag. Its an ejection chute. But I have a tactical liquor bag to catch the empties. You know....the black one. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I actually cut up a 30rd PMag for a brass catcher. Being in Colorado, it was not an easy decision to make, but I think it was worth it. Matches the JMT 80 lower. But I have a tactical liquor bag to catch the empties. You know....the black one. |
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Posted: 9/10/2017 2:15:25 AM EDT
[#39]
Just a warning fellas. I stacked the AE TMJ 5.7 deep when I got my PS90 and it fucking hates it.
It is straight up dangerous. Just a warning. I thought maybe it was my rifle, but it turns out I am not the only one.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 9/10/2017 2:19:54 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just a warning fellas. I stacked the AE TMJ 5.7 deep when I got my PS90 and it fucking hates it. It is straight up dangerous. Just a warning. I thought maybe it was my rifle, but it turns out I am not the only one. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/149112/IMG_1083-303685.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/149112/IMG_1084-303686.JPG |
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Posted: 9/10/2017 2:24:51 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just a warning fellas. I stacked the AE TMJ 5.7 deep when I got my PS90 and it fucking hates it. It is straight up dangerous. Just a warning. I thought maybe it was my rifle, but it turns out I am not the only one. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/149112/IMG_1083-303685.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/149112/IMG_1084-303686.JPG 
So far, AE has worked fine with my AR57, but I have heard horror stories. That's not good. |
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Posted: 9/10/2017 2:30:26 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No baseplate? I have reliably caught all 50 cases in the pmag. Still haven't figured out why all the necks are severely dented though, catcher or no catcher. I have no intention of reloading anyway... |
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Posted: 9/10/2017 5:24:30 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just a warning fellas. I stacked the AE TMJ 5.7 deep when I got my PS90 and it fucking hates it.
It is straight up dangerous. Just a warning. I thought maybe it was my rifle, but it turns out I am not the only one. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/149112/IMG_1083-303685.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/149112/IMG_1084-303686.JPG |
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Posted: 9/10/2017 6:29:49 AM EDT
[#44]
The thought is the bearing surface on the Federal AE bullet is too short to properly retain the bullet in the case.
Reports indicate it works better in the FiveseveN pistol than in the PS90. This is a Federal AE round that failed on Independence Day when we were blasting away with the P90 at 900 rpm.... 
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Posted: 9/10/2017 8:27:51 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And you think Armscor is publishing SLOWER than actual numbers? I think one of the only things holding the 22TCM back right now is the poor marketing by ARMSCOR. It is similar to 300 Whisper vs 300 Blackout. The Whisper was a niche cartridge for many years, but once a good marketing company got a hold of it (AAC) it took off. I expect something similar to happen with the TCM, it is just too good of an idea. I really like the 5.7x28mm and I think there is plenty of room for both it and the TCM, I don't see it as a competition really. The long OAL of the 5.7 gives better bullet selection, while the short OAL of the TCM gives more flexible selection of guns and magazines. |
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Posted: 9/10/2017 8:33:25 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you think your vaunted .22 TCM can pull off shooting through ONE Level II vest?
DevestaTOR will EASILY do it. Hell, even T6B will do it. Frankly I don't give a shit about the FBI Standard! |
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Posted: 9/10/2017 8:50:53 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
READ! Do you think your vaunted .22 TCM can pull off shooting through ONE Level II vest? DevestaTOR will EASILY do it. Hell, even T6B will do it. Frankly I don't give a shit about the FBI Standard! My duty rifle is loaded with Hornady .223 40 gr TAP Urban. I can pretty much assure you it won't go 12" but it will leave a permanent cavity the size of a grapefruit around 5" in. Think that won't stop a dirt bag instantly? The load is in use by several large SWAT units around the country. The track record is a hit to the torso and their down, body bag down. I do carry TAP Barrier in case I need to engage a vehicle.  22 TCM VS Level II Body Armor I know how you hold the FBIs standards in disgust, which should be a sign for the rest of us. While I'm a no one, I have shot people with a 556 and I sure as hell wouldn't want a round that penatrates so poorly. I suppose your experience shooting bad guys must be different. Good luck with that. I think both these rounds could be kick ass if the 5.7 could actually show how they perform against the industry standards, and the .22 tcm needs more loadings. Just from the one tcm loading it looks like it shows a lot of promise if they can fit it in a few other polymer guns. I'm surprised someone whose spent 30 years fighting bad guys doesn't favor more penatration. Hopefully you'll never need to test your theories. |
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Posted: 9/10/2017 9:05:31 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You mean like this? It's not even backed with clay or gel and still goes through. It's not really my round, not yet anyways. |
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Posted: 9/10/2017 9:17:46 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I always thought you needed the gel or clay (or a body) to back the soft armor because that firm elasticity improved its performance. Without anything in back I think more stuff gets through. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You mean like this? It's not even backed with clay or gel and still goes through. It's not really my round, not yet anyways. Picture a piece of paper. One backed by clay, the other hanging free. Now poke your finger through them both and see what happens. |
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Posted: 9/10/2017 9:29:22 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The thought is the bearing surface on the Federal AE bullet is too short to properly retain the bullet in the case. Reports indicate it works better in the FiveseveN pistol than in the PS90. This is a Federal AE round that failed on Independence Day when we were blasting away with the P90 at 900 rpm.... https://i.imgur.com/4MawJUt.jpg |
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