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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:11:52 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Right. I figured a 24" was used. Pointless data point. Need 16" data. Shortest they tested in an AR was 12.5". I don't think there is much improvement over the 6.5 Grendel, 18 " barrel, I already have. Grendel can shoot 100-105 gr bullets also. Time will tell. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:13:39 PM EST
[#2]
Quoted: Kind of. Why not call it 6mm Grendel?!?!? That would make it more popular to begin with. Saying "ARC" means shit to anybody. Trademark Quoted: For fuck's sake, you could probably chamber & maybe even safely fire Grendel from this thing  . They're identical!You know how GD loves to say shit is an answer to a question no one asked? This is the same answer to a question already answered. How do you plan to shoot a 6.5 bullet in a 6mm? |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:15:33 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Kind of. Why not call it 6mm Grendel?!?!? That would make it more popular to begin with. Saying "ARC" means shit to anybody. "ARC" is that HDMI slot you use when connecting your sound system. Other than that, ... |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:23:20 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It probably is but it looked shorter in this video.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kpOT73eX5YI guess the real question is whether or not a better magazine will be attempted with this cartridge. I don't hate the Grendel mags they have bee good for me. However, the lack of options has had me scratching my head for a while. It uses grendel BCG and Mags, and if it is the same COAL (hard to know) maybe it will help make better mags for both? I really wish Lancer would make some. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:23:21 PM EST
[#5]
All you carbine shooters wont get the idea. A 6mm cartridge that fits an AR-15 with a fast twist and heavy bullets to get you out to 1000 yards. People have been working on this concept for decades. Our nation's best shooters have been using and improving on this idea for a long time now. The limiting factor is the magazine length. So far the cartridge designs have been a compromise and they still are. BUT! The designs are workable even if not ideal. Not sure if this one will be around any longer than the others but it's not a bad design. time will tell.
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:26:37 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You know how GD loves to say shit is an answer to a question no one asked? This is the same answer to a question already answered. There are probably eleventeen AR15 length 6mm wildcats, and this is the answer to the question "Where can I buy ammo for those?" |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:30:44 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was there a shortage of 6.5 pill offerings in Grendel that I was not aware of? No, but people have been wild-catting the Grendel basically since it came out to 6mm for target work. Less drop, more MV, with 107/108gr class 6mm bullets having the same or better BCs compared to 123gr 6.5mm target bullets, with less recoil. With 6.5 Grendel, you normally aren't pushing much past 2650fps with a 123gr hand-loaded from a 24" barrel, while factory ammo is somewhere between 2580-2620fps. With 6mm AR and now 6mm ARC, you can push a 103-108gr bullet at 2750fps from a 24" barrel with factory ammo with a better BC bullet. The gun basically doesn't move when you break the shot, since the projectile weight is so low and chamber pressure isn't that high. Many of us have been advocating for a factory 6mm Grendel for a long time, primarily for target and varmint work. This is basically a Valkyrie killer for those that wanted a smaller bore option than 6.5 Grendel. It's not just another cartridge, but an actual performance advantage that is ideal within the AR15. It is more forgiving of positional free-recoil when shooting a gas gun as well, like .223 Rem or lighter-loaded Grendel is. There is still a wider range of projectile types and weights for 6.5mm looking at 85-160gr, versus 55-115gr in 6mm. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:34:42 PM EST
[#8]
Meh, definitely not enough improvement for me to swap from Grendel.
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:36:37 PM EST
[#9]
Anyone know if this is compatible with 243 LBC?
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:39:18 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, but people have been wild-catting the Grendel basically since it came out to 6mm for target work. Less drop, more MV, with 107/108gr class 6mm bullets having the same or better BCs compared to 123gr 6.5mm target bullets, with less recoil. With 6.5 Grendel, you normally aren't pushing much past 2650fps with a 123gr hand-loaded from a 24" barrel, while factory ammo is somewhere between 2580-2620fps. With 6mm AR and now 6mm ARC, you can push a 103-108gr bullet at 2750fps from a 24" barrel with factory ammo with a better BC bullet. The gun basically doesn't move when you break the shot, since the projectile weight is so low and chamber pressure isn't that high. Many of us have been advocating for a factory 6mm Grendel for a long time, primarily for target and varmint work. This is basically a Valkyrie killer for those that wanted a smaller bore option than 6.5 Grendel. It's not just another cartridge, but an actual performance advantage that is ideal within the AR15. It is more forgiving of positional free-recoil when shooting a gas gun as well, like .223 Rem or lighter-loaded Grendel is. There is still a wider range of projectile types and weights for 6.5mm looking at 85-160gr, versus 55-115gr in 6mm. Interesting, thanks for the detailed response  |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:41:08 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are probably eleventeen AR15 length 6mm wildcats, and this is the answer to the question "Where can I buy ammo for those?" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You know how GD loves to say shit is an answer to a question no one asked? This is the same answer to a question already answered. There are probably eleventeen AR15 length 6mm wildcats, and this is the answer to the question "Where can I buy ammo for those?" Bingo The main thing that has kept me away from doing a 6mm Grendel is factory brass and ammo. Sure, I could buy bushing dies and neck down and trim a bunch of brass, but when I want to buy brass or ammo and just shoot, I don't have that option like I've enjoyed with 6.5 Grendel. Hornady isn't in the habit of developing and marketing cartridges that don't catch on, and since there has already been a pretty significant market for shooters that are loading some type of 6mm Grendel for target work, it makes a lot of sense. This will also bring over a lot of shooters that tried the Valkyrie in the AR15 but didn't get what they really wanted. They already have plenty of rifles, so a barrel/bolt/magazine swap is all that is needed for them to convert to it. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:42:02 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, but people have been wild-catting the Grendel basically since it came out to 6mm for target work. Less drop, more MV, with 107/108gr class 6mm bullets having the same or better BCs compared to 123gr 6.5mm target bullets, with less recoil. With 6.5 Grendel, you normally aren't pushing much past 2650fps with a 123gr hand-loaded from a 24" barrel, while factory ammo is somewhere between 2580-2620fps. With 6mm AR and now 6mm ARC, you can push a 103-108gr bullet at 2750fps from a 24" barrel with factory ammo with a better BC bullet. The gun basically doesn't move when you break the shot, since the projectile weight is so low and chamber pressure isn't that high. Many of us have been advocating for a factory 6mm Grendel for a long time, primarily for target and varmint work. This is basically a Valkyrie killer for those that wanted a smaller bore option than 6.5 Grendel. It's not just another cartridge, but an actual performance advantage that is ideal within the AR15. It is more forgiving of positional free-recoil when shooting a gas gun as well, like .223 Rem or lighter-loaded Grendel is. There is still a wider range of projectile types and weights for 6.5mm looking at 85-160gr, versus 55-115gr in 6mm. I have not yet built a Grendel, is it worth to hold off on that and go for a 6mmARC? This would be for Texas whitetail hunting, some mid-range target shooting and general fun type duties. Grendel has Wolf ammo, so that is a thing for a fun-gun. I'm curious if ARC is going to be $30 per 20 for the foreseeable future. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:43:49 PM EST
[#13]
Even though the design may or may not be a copy of a couple good wildcats out there, I'm happy to see commercial brass available for it.
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:45:25 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This will be a huge hit just like 224valkyrie  Seriously. There's a new wonder cartridge released every year. I'll be sticking with 6.5. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:46:44 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone know if this is compatible with 243 LBC? The shoulder location is shorter on 6mm ARC from what I've seen, not that there is an industry standard for .243 LBC. .243 LBC was a PTG name for 6mm AR. There is also 6mm AR Turbo and 6mm Fat Rat. All are 6mm cats based on the 6.5 Grendel necked down, with different propellant volume driven by shoulder location. 6mm ARC has a shorter case length, and shorter base-to-shoulder neck junction: 
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:48:30 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It uses grendel BCG and Mags, and if it is the same COAL (hard to know) maybe it will help make better mags for both? I really wish Lancer would make some. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It probably is but it looked shorter in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kpOT73eX5YI guess the real question is whether or not a better magazine will be attempted with this cartridge. I don't hate the Grendel mags they have bee good for me. However, the lack of options has had me scratching my head for a while. It uses grendel BCG and Mags, and if it is the same COAL (hard to know) maybe it will help make better mags for both? I really wish Lancer would make some. That is my hope with all of this. Amend 2 seems to be officially vaporware with their poly mag. If lancer and magpul jump in on this with magazines. That could be what it takes to get this to take off. And if 6.5 Grendel fits too. Well that would be amazing. I'm probably wrong but my whole understanding of the whole COAL thing is that while they are all the same max. 5.56 loads tend to be shorter in factory loads. So that is why 6.8 SPC and 6.5 G only have metal mag support. So if this really is a military project come to market. I would assume they took that into account. But like I said I'm probably wrong. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:55:10 PM EST
[#17]
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:57:45 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OK, so the real question is this... I have not yet built a Grendel, is it worth to hold off on that and go for a 6mmARC? This would be for Texas whitetail hunting, some mid-range target shooting and general fun type duties. Grendel has Wolf ammo, so that is a thing for a fun-gun. I'm curious if ARC is going to be $30 per 20 for the foreseeable future. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No, but people have been wild-catting the Grendel basically since it came out to 6mm for target work. Less drop, more MV, with 107/108gr class 6mm bullets having the same or better BCs compared to 123gr 6.5mm target bullets, with less recoil. With 6.5 Grendel, you normally aren't pushing much past 2650fps with a 123gr hand-loaded from a 24" barrel, while factory ammo is somewhere between 2580-2620fps. With 6mm AR and now 6mm ARC, you can push a 103-108gr bullet at 2750fps from a 24" barrel with factory ammo with a better BC bullet. The gun basically doesn't move when you break the shot, since the projectile weight is so low and chamber pressure isn't that high. Many of us have been advocating for a factory 6mm Grendel for a long time, primarily for target and varmint work. This is basically a Valkyrie killer for those that wanted a smaller bore option than 6.5 Grendel. It's not just another cartridge, but an actual performance advantage that is ideal within the AR15. It is more forgiving of positional free-recoil when shooting a gas gun as well, like .223 Rem or lighter-loaded Grendel is. There is still a wider range of projectile types and weights for 6.5mm looking at 85-160gr, versus 55-115gr in 6mm. I have not yet built a Grendel, is it worth to hold off on that and go for a 6mmARC? This would be for Texas whitetail hunting, some mid-range target shooting and general fun type duties. Grendel has Wolf ammo, so that is a thing for a fun-gun. I'm curious if ARC is going to be $30 per 20 for the foreseeable future. For your stated purposes, 6.5 Grendel is ideal. If you were shooting more target work with a long barrel, and also wanted to do more varmint work in high wind conditions, the 6mm ARC would give you some marginal advantages over 6.5 Grendel. The Grendel will impact steel pretty hard compared to 6mm, but with a higher trajectory and a little more wind drift as penalties. The ARC will make sense for High Power shooters, the new class of AR15 gas gun matches emerging, and varminters. It will also kill medium game like any other small case high velocity centerfire rifle cartridge, but won't bring as much projectile weight and penetration as some of the heavier 6.5mm bullets do. Training a new shooter with either using 100gr class bullets is a wash for recoil. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:11:55 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is my hope with all of this. Amend 2 seems to be officially vaporware with their poly mag. If lancer and magpul jump in on this with magazines. That could be what it takes to get this to take off. And if 6.5 Grendel fits too. Well that would be amazing. I'm probably wrong but my whole understanding of the whole COAL thing is that while they are all the same max. 5.56 loads tend to be shorter in factory loads. So that is why 6.8 SPC and 6.5 G only have metal mag support. So if this really is a military project come to market. I would assume they took that into account. But like I said I'm probably wrong. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted:It probably is but it looked shorter in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kpOT73eX5YI guess the real question is whether or not a better magazine will be attempted with this cartridge. I don't hate the Grendel mags they have bee good for me. However, the lack of options has had me scratching my head for a while. It uses grendel BCG and Mags, and if it is the same COAL (hard to know) maybe it will help make better mags for both? I really wish Lancer would make some. That is my hope with all of this. Amend 2 seems to be officially vaporware with their poly mag. If lancer and magpul jump in on this with magazines. That could be what it takes to get this to take off. And if 6.5 Grendel fits too. Well that would be amazing. I'm probably wrong but my whole understanding of the whole COAL thing is that while they are all the same max. 5.56 loads tend to be shorter in factory loads. So that is why 6.8 SPC and 6.5 G only have metal mag support. So if this really is a military project come to market. I would assume they took that into account. But like I said I'm probably wrong. Polymer magazines aren't limited by COL considerations as much as they are by case diameter in the AR15 magazine well. There isn't enough room to get a proper cartridge stack for a double column magazine using the types of polymers that Magpul uses, because polymer requires thicker walls so it doesn't bow out too much. This is why 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC use metal mags inside the standard AR15 receive set. LWRC made a special receiver set called the Six8 so they could use a Magpul Six8 magazine with the correct cartridge stack and thicker polymer walls, but then you're into a different receiver set that is no longer standard AR15-compatible. Carbon fiber is something one might consider, but costs would be significant. Metal mags work fine in 5.56 and 6.5 Grendel, as long as they are made correctly. It took decades of tweaking 5.56 mags and still hasn't stopped, so we're always chasing ways to make the feed systems more reliable. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:22:34 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Polymer magazines aren't limited by COL considerations as much as they are by case diameter in the AR15 magazine well. There isn't enough room to get a proper cartridge stack for a double column magazine using the types of polymers that Magpul uses, because polymer requires thicker walls so it doesn't bow out too much. This is why 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC use metal mags inside the standard AR15 receive set. LWRC made a special receiver set called the Six8 so they could use a Magpul Six8 magazine with the correct cartridge stack and thicker polymer walls, but then you're into a different receiver set that is no longer standard AR15-compatible. Carbon fiber is something one might consider, but costs would be significant. Metal mags work fine in 5.56 and 6.5 Grendel, as long as they are made correctly. It took decades of tweaking 5.56 mags and still hasn't stopped, so we're always chasing ways to make the feed systems more reliable. Thank you for posting that. Darn so it will still be a while for both. I guess I should have figured it was because they were fatter and not longer too. I grabbed a 5.45x39 mag to try out with grendel. About 6-7 rounds in it started to buldge like crazy  |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:25:27 PM EST
[#21]
(Rant warning).
I am so sick of “new” cartridges. All these supposedly “new” calibers do is dilute the pool of civilian owned guns into more non-interchangeable ammo types. The supposed advantages they offer are minuscule and not worth the trade offs. As the armed citizens of the USA, we should be headed in the opposite direction. More infuriating is that they are not really advancements at all. If you want significant advancement in small arms chamberings, there are only TWO (2) truly inovative technologies I know of: The CT telescoping cartridges:  And to a lesser degree (and available to us), the new 80,000 PSI+ Sig .277 Fury - requiring a steel case head:  Everything else is just an annoying little tweak or marking of an existing wildcat. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:31:44 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am so sick of “new” cartridges. All these supposedly “new” calibers do is dilute the pool of civilian owned guns into more non-interchangeable ammo types. The supposed advantages they offer are minuscule and not worth the trade offs. As the armed citizens of the USA, we should be headed in the opposite direction. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:37:30 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This will be a huge hit just like 224valkyrie |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:38:37 PM EST
[#24]
Nonsense... everyone knows .263 AssScratch Super Short Ultra Wide Mega Magnum Creedmoor PPC is the only caliber worth buying.
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:41:14 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah that was a dumb post. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:42:11 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I am so sick of “new” cartridges. All these supposedly “new” calibers do is dilute the pool of civilian owned guns into more non-interchangeable ammo types. The supposed advantages they offer are minuscule and not worth the trade offs. As the armed citizens of the USA, we should be headed in the opposite direction. I don’t understand why people get so wound up over this stuff. Most of these are for a relatively small group of shooters. Don’t like it don’t buy it. I love seeing new rounds designed from the ground up by actual shooters. Hornady is killing it . |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:46:12 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, but people have been wild-catting the Grendel basically since it came out to 6mm for target work. Less drop, more MV, with 107/108gr class 6mm bullets having the same or better BCs compared to 123gr 6.5mm target bullets, with less recoil. With 6.5 Grendel, you normally aren't pushing much past 2650fps with a 123gr hand-loaded from a 24" barrel, while factory ammo is somewhere between 2580-2620fps. With 6mm AR and now 6mm ARC, you can push a 103-108gr bullet at 2750fps from a 24" barrel with factory ammo with a better BC bullet. The gun basically doesn't move when you break the shot, since the projectile weight is so low and chamber pressure isn't that high. Many of us have been advocating for a factory 6mm Grendel for a long time, primarily for target and varmint work. This is basically a Valkyrie killer for those that wanted a smaller bore option than 6.5 Grendel. It's not just another cartridge, but an actual performance advantage that is ideal within the AR15. It is more forgiving of positional free-recoil when shooting a gas gun as well, like .223 Rem or lighter-loaded Grendel is. There is still a wider range of projectile types and weights for 6.5mm looking at 85-160gr, versus 55-115gr in 6mm. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Was there a shortage of 6.5 pill offerings in Grendel that I was not aware of? No, but people have been wild-catting the Grendel basically since it came out to 6mm for target work. Less drop, more MV, with 107/108gr class 6mm bullets having the same or better BCs compared to 123gr 6.5mm target bullets, with less recoil. With 6.5 Grendel, you normally aren't pushing much past 2650fps with a 123gr hand-loaded from a 24" barrel, while factory ammo is somewhere between 2580-2620fps. With 6mm AR and now 6mm ARC, you can push a 103-108gr bullet at 2750fps from a 24" barrel with factory ammo with a better BC bullet. The gun basically doesn't move when you break the shot, since the projectile weight is so low and chamber pressure isn't that high. Many of us have been advocating for a factory 6mm Grendel for a long time, primarily for target and varmint work. This is basically a Valkyrie killer for those that wanted a smaller bore option than 6.5 Grendel. It's not just another cartridge, but an actual performance advantage that is ideal within the AR15. It is more forgiving of positional free-recoil when shooting a gas gun as well, like .223 Rem or lighter-loaded Grendel is. There is still a wider range of projectile types and weights for 6.5mm looking at 85-160gr, versus 55-115gr in 6mm. I think I’ve asked you this before, have you done much work with the 107TMK? My max load is 30.5gns of TAC which yields 2645fps from an 18” Alexander arms barrel. I think I can get close to 2700 with a longer barrel, either way the 107TMK is a very impressive bullet in the Grendel |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:47:07 PM EST
[#28]
Oh also inb4 MAC does a 30 minute long paid infomercial about how the 6mm arc is the best thing of all time like he did with 224v
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:49:35 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I am so sick of “new” cartridges. All these supposedly “new” calibers do is dilute the pool of civilian owned guns into more non-interchangeable ammo types. The supposed advantages they offer are minuscule and not worth the trade offs. As the armed citizens of the USA, we should be headed in the opposite direction. He has a point, true innovation will happen on the open sources civilian side. It needs to happen on our side. I’m sure the R&D cost of telescoping ammo is enormous |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:53:14 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: (Rant warning). I am so sick of “new” cartridges. All these supposedly “new” calibers do is dilute the pool of civilian owned guns into more non-interchangeable ammo types. The supposed advantages they offer are minuscule and not worth the trade offs. As the armed citizens of the USA, we should be headed in the opposite direction. More infuriating is that they are not really advancements at all. If you want significant advancement in small arms chamberings, there are only TWO (2) truly inovative technologies I know of: The CT telescoping cartridges: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/wV5UVry.png And to a lesser degree (and available to us), the new 80,000 PSI+ Sig .277 Fury - requiring a steel case head: https://gastatic.com/digest/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Levi-Sim-2-1024x768.jpg Everything else is just an annoying little tweak or marking of an existing wildcat. You should look into what Hornady is putting out for this. They admit this is not the bestest ever. In reality this seems like a standardization of a popular wildcat cartridges. Which to my understanding always helps the industry. I invested in grendel recently. One thing it is missing is the stupid hype driven market support that things like blackout and creedmore had. It's been picking up. But it's just not there yet for me. If this develops that support it could be a viable new cartridge. Also I feel the two piece cartridge design an advancement all cartridges could benefit from. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:53:14 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t understand why people get so wound up over this stuff. Most of these are for a relatively small group of shooters. Don’t like it don’t buy it. I love seeing new rounds designed from the ground up by actual shooters. Hornady is killing it . Because fad calibers are stupid and there's probably an existing caliber that performs identically to the latest flavor of the month. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:56:22 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Right. "ARC" is that HDMI slot you use when connecting your sound system. Other than that, ... There's eARC....?? And still left with other than that... |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:57:40 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because fad calibers are stupid and there's probably an existing caliber that performs identically to the latest flavor of the month. If I google "[name of that existing caliber] ammo", do I get a page of retailers that can ship me ammo today, or do I get a bunch of blog posts about how I can make my own brass and powders that might work? |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:02:12 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because fad calibers are stupid and there's probably an existing caliber that performs identically to the latest flavor of the month. Kinda hard to reload for those that don't have support like SPC, Grendel, Valk, etc |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:05:11 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: (Rant warning). I am so sick of “new” cartridges. All these supposedly “new” calibers do is dilute the pool of civilian owned guns into more non-interchangeable ammo types. The supposed advantages they offer are minuscule and not worth the trade offs. As the armed citizens of the USA, we should be headed in the opposite direction. More infuriating is that they are not really advancements at all. If you want significant advancement in small arms chamberings, there are only TWO (2) truly inovative technologies I know of: The CT telescoping cartridges: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/wV5UVry.png And to a lesser degree (and available to us), the new 80,000 PSI+ Sig .277 Fury - requiring a steel case head: https://gastatic.com/digest/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Levi-Sim-2-1024x768.jpg Everything else is just an annoying little tweak or marking of an existing wildcat. Yeah, the quest for perfection in the specific AR-15 sized pocket is getting old. Maybe the NGSW will break the mold. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:12:34 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think I’ve asked you this before, have you done much work with the 107TMK? My max load is 30.5gns of TAC which yields 2645fps from an 18” Alexander arms barrel. I think I can get close to 2700 with a longer barrel, either way the 107TMK is a very impressive bullet in the Grendel Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Was there a shortage of 6.5 pill offerings in Grendel that I was not aware of? No, but people have been wild-catting the Grendel basically since it came out to 6mm for target work. Less drop, more MV, with 107/108gr class 6mm bullets having the same or better BCs compared to 123gr 6.5mm target bullets, with less recoil. With 6.5 Grendel, you normally aren't pushing much past 2650fps with a 123gr hand-loaded from a 24" barrel, while factory ammo is somewhere between 2580-2620fps. With 6mm AR and now 6mm ARC, you can push a 103-108gr bullet at 2750fps from a 24" barrel with factory ammo with a better BC bullet. The gun basically doesn't move when you break the shot, since the projectile weight is so low and chamber pressure isn't that high. Many of us have been advocating for a factory 6mm Grendel for a long time, primarily for target and varmint work. This is basically a Valkyrie killer for those that wanted a smaller bore option than 6.5 Grendel. It's not just another cartridge, but an actual performance advantage that is ideal within the AR15. It is more forgiving of positional free-recoil when shooting a gas gun as well, like .223 Rem or lighter-loaded Grendel is. There is still a wider range of projectile types and weights for 6.5mm looking at 85-160gr, versus 55-115gr in 6mm. I think I’ve asked you this before, have you done much work with the 107TMK? My max load is 30.5gns of TAC which yields 2645fps from an 18” Alexander arms barrel. I think I can get close to 2700 with a longer barrel, either way the 107TMK is a very impressive bullet in the Grendel I have not done any load development with the 6.5mm 107gr TMK yet. I've done a bit with 107gr SMK, which will do 2450-2500fps from a 12" Grendel. That's what my buddy uses with his 12" I built him, on top of 8208XBR. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:13:05 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because fad calibers are stupid and there's probably an existing caliber that performs identically to the latest flavor of the month. Nah, it's because after the SHTF you'll be running into an abandoned store being chased by cannibals -- and upon spying a few boxes of unopened ammo on a shelf, your relief will turn to dust when you realize nobody ever has 6ARC. LOL |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:14:35 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone know if this is compatible with 243 LBC? No, too much drama. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:16:03 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because fad calibers are stupid and there's probably an existing caliber that performs identically to the latest flavor of the month. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don’t understand why people get so wound up over this stuff. Most of these are for a relatively small group of shooters. Don’t like it don’t buy it. I love seeing new rounds designed from the ground up by actual shooters. Hornady is killing it . Because fad calibers are stupid and there's probably an existing caliber that performs identically to the latest flavor of the month. Can you give some examples? There’s nothing like that for this unless you count tiny production wildcats. One could argue that 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 spc compete but they definitely filled a gap in the lineup. 6.5 Creedmoor as a system did what 260 never did. 6mm Creedmoor did the same to 243 but with as popular as 243 is its staying power probably beats 260. Stuff like this is what gets us better guns, bullets, etc. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:24:59 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You should look into what Hornady is putting out for this. They admit this is not the bestest ever. In reality this seems like a standardization of a popular wildcat cartridges. Which to my understanding always helps the industry. I invested in grendel recently. One thing it is missing is the stupid hype driven market support that things like blackout and creedmore had. It's been picking up. But it's just not there yet for me. If this develops that support it could be a viable new cartridge. Also I feel the two piece cartridge design an advancement all cartridges could benefit from. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: (Rant warning).I am so sick of “new” cartridges. All these supposedly “new” calibers do is dilute the pool of civilian owned guns into more non-interchangeable ammo types. The supposed advantages they offer are minuscule and not worth the trade offs. As the armed citizens of the USA, we should be headed in the opposite direction. More infuriating is that they are not really advancements at all. If you want significant advancement in small arms chamberings, there are only TWO (2) truly inovative technologies I know of: The CT telescoping cartridges: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/wV5UVry.png And to a lesser degree (and available to us), the new 80,000 PSI+ Sig .277 Fury - requiring a steel case head: https://gastatic.com/digest/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Levi-Sim-2-1024x768.jpg Everything else is just an annoying little tweak or marking of an existing wildcat. You should look into what Hornady is putting out for this. They admit this is not the bestest ever. In reality this seems like a standardization of a popular wildcat cartridges. Which to my understanding always helps the industry. I invested in grendel recently. One thing it is missing is the stupid hype driven market support that things like blackout and creedmore had. It's been picking up. But it's just not there yet for me. If this develops that support it could be a viable new cartridge. Also I feel the two piece cartridge design an advancement all cartridges could benefit from. 6.5 Grendel was launched by a small company in 2003 that few had heard of. Hornady took it to SAAMI and got approval much sooner than Bill Alexander thought would ever happen, but it has never been a cartridge that was developed or launched by one of the big ammunition manufacturers. That sets it apart from all the latest cartridges that have been pushed heavily with large budget marketing campaigns in the gun world. Despite not having that kind of backing, it has moved on to command a very large segment of the ammunition market compared to all the recent cartridges that have been introduced since 2000. Its compatibility with the AR15 frame and performance have driven its popularity among shooters, not hype. There are well over 90 factory loads for 6.5 Grendel now, including Barnes VOR-TX, Hornady SST, ELD-M, Federal Gold Medal Match and 3 other Federal loads, Wolf Steel Case, multiple economical brass-cased PPU loads, and Sellier & Bellot, in addition to the early Grendel factory ammo makers like AA and PF. It's the only new cartridge that has: SAAMI approval CIP approval Wolf Steel Case Federal Gold Medal Match That isn't a fad, fly-by-night, or flash-in-the-pan cartridge market reception. Only .223 Rem and .308 Winchester have those 4 mass production and industry standard benchmarks when looking at cartridges that will work in AR15s or AR10s. I think the only other one is .30-06 Springfield. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:30:02 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Joglee This is the new round the Army is FO’ing on @flying_finn No, the new round is a 130gr 6.8. Cartridge is up to the company, each one is different. Sig is the .277 Fury that is just being released to the commercial market. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:37:03 PM EST
[#42]
As much as I like 243's the fact that there is a Grendel, steel cased ammo, 6.5mm bullets now up to the wazoo, there is little room for the 6mm other than a very specialized rifle. And those cartridges don't have a very lond lifespan.
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:52:54 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 6.5 Grendel was launched by a small company in 2003 that few had heard of. Hornady took it to SAAMI and got approval much sooner than Bill Alexander thought would ever happen, but it has never been a cartridge that was developed or launched by one of the big ammunition manufacturers. That sets it apart from all the latest cartridges that have been pushed heavily with large budget marketing campaigns in the gun world. Despite not having that kind of backing, it has moved on to command a very large segment of the ammunition market compared to all the recent cartridges that have been introduced since 2000. Its compatibility with the AR15 frame and performance have driven its popularity among shooters, not hype. There are well over 90 factory loads for 6.5 Grendel now, including Barnes VOR-TX, Hornady SST, ELD-M, Federal Gold Medal Match and 3 other Federal loads, Wolf Steel Case, multiple economical brass-cased PPU loads, and Sellier & Bellot, in addition to the early Grendel factory ammo makers like AA and PF. It's the only new cartridge that has: SAAMI approval CIP approval Wolf Steel Case Federal Gold Medal Match That isn't a fad, fly-by-night, or flash-in-the-pan cartridge market reception. Only .223 Rem and .308 Winchester have those 4 mass production and industry standard benchmarks when looking at cartridges that will work in AR15s or AR10s. I think the only other one is .30-06 Springfield. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: (Rant warning).I am so sick of “new” cartridges. All these supposedly “new” calibers do is dilute the pool of civilian owned guns into more non-interchangeable ammo types. The supposed advantages they offer are minuscule and not worth the trade offs. As the armed citizens of the USA, we should be headed in the opposite direction. More infuriating is that they are not really advancements at all. If you want significant advancement in small arms chamberings, there are only TWO (2) truly inovative technologies I know of: The CT telescoping cartridges: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/wV5UVry.png And to a lesser degree (and available to us), the new 80,000 PSI+ Sig .277 Fury - requiring a steel case head: https://gastatic.com/digest/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Levi-Sim-2-1024x768.jpg Everything else is just an annoying little tweak or marking of an existing wildcat. You should look into what Hornady is putting out for this. They admit this is not the bestest ever. In reality this seems like a standardization of a popular wildcat cartridges. Which to my understanding always helps the industry. I invested in grendel recently. One thing it is missing is the stupid hype driven market support that things like blackout and creedmore had. It's been picking up. But it's just not there yet for me. If this develops that support it could be a viable new cartridge. Also I feel the two piece cartridge design an advancement all cartridges could benefit from. 6.5 Grendel was launched by a small company in 2003 that few had heard of. Hornady took it to SAAMI and got approval much sooner than Bill Alexander thought would ever happen, but it has never been a cartridge that was developed or launched by one of the big ammunition manufacturers. That sets it apart from all the latest cartridges that have been pushed heavily with large budget marketing campaigns in the gun world. Despite not having that kind of backing, it has moved on to command a very large segment of the ammunition market compared to all the recent cartridges that have been introduced since 2000. Its compatibility with the AR15 frame and performance have driven its popularity among shooters, not hype. There are well over 90 factory loads for 6.5 Grendel now, including Barnes VOR-TX, Hornady SST, ELD-M, Federal Gold Medal Match and 3 other Federal loads, Wolf Steel Case, multiple economical brass-cased PPU loads, and Sellier & Bellot, in addition to the early Grendel factory ammo makers like AA and PF. It's the only new cartridge that has: SAAMI approval CIP approval Wolf Steel Case Federal Gold Medal Match That isn't a fad, fly-by-night, or flash-in-the-pan cartridge market reception. Only .223 Rem and .308 Winchester have those 4 mass production and industry standard benchmarks when looking at cartridges that will work in AR15s or AR10s. I think the only other one is .30-06 Springfield. I have no complaints on the cartridge level its on the rifle components that I have issue. There is a bunch out there right now. But I have recently been looking at barrels. I wanted something very similar to what came on my PSA upper. I was hoping there would be more in the level of the BA modern series or Kak value line. Most want that nice match performance so I get that is where things are but the jump between BCA and Performance SS match barrels leaves me with few options. These things take time though I notice whenever I get impatient with the market someone does what I am looking for right after I invest in another option. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 3:06:26 PM EST
[#44]
So it looks like the 6mm ARC was actually adopted by a "notable DoD entity" before it was officially released.
Here's what Tom Beckstrand had to say about it. (Tom and I were both in 3-325 AIR in the 82nd Airborne at the same time. He was A Co Commander, then went SF. He also has some of the best articles on optics I've ever come across, which were published in Sniper Magazine.) Tom Beckstrand on 6mm ARC Apparently they were doing a lot of work with 6.5 Grendel since 7.62 NATO-sized weapons were simply too big and heavy, no matter what level of physical fitness the personnel had. They wanted the reach of longer range rifles without the weight and recoil penalty. They also wanted AR15 compatibility. Hornady said they could neck down the 6.5 Grendel to 6mm and achieve the desired performance requirements while not exceeding 52,000psi chamber pressure. This is the first time a new military cartridge has been developed and adopted in this manner since 5.56x45. I just thought Hornady was making a 6mm Grendel to meet the civilian market demand. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 3:07:37 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @flying_finn No, the new round is a 130gr 6.8. Cartridge is up to the company, each one is different. Sig is the .277 Fury that is just being released to the commercial market. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @Joglee This is the new round the Army is FO’ing on @flying_finn No, the new round is a 130gr 6.8. Cartridge is up to the company, each one is different. Sig is the .277 Fury that is just being released to the commercial market. The whizzing sound you heard as you clicked "submit" on your post? That was the joke sailing over your head. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 3:08:25 PM EST
[#46]
Hornady’s 6mm Advanced Rifle Cartridge (ARC) is the first time in history that the commercial announcement of a cartridge was preceded by adoption within the military. While Hornady has been extremely secretive about who adopted the cartridge, they can say that it is a “notable Department of Defense (DOD) entity.” The reasons a military unit would be interested in the 6mm ARC are for its utility and mild manners that ensure long firearm life. Threats have learned to stay 500 to 600 meters away from our troops on the battlefield to be safe from the effectiveness of our 5.56mm rifles, carbines and machine guns. The U.S. military has been looking for a solution. The 6mm ARC is unique among rifle cartridges in that it fits in an AR-15-pattern action, functions reliably out of standard-capacity 24- or 17-round magazines, and remains supersonic beyond 1,000 yards in a standard atmosphere. This allows a rifle chambered in this cartridge to be used for everything from close quarters battle (CQB) to sniper missions while simplifying logistics for the units that carry it. US Military Adopts 6mm ARC |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 3:13:54 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have not done any load development with the 6.5mm 107gr TMK yet. I've done a bit with 107gr SMK, which will do 2450-2500fps from a 12" Grendel. That's what my buddy uses with his 12" I built him, on top of 8208XBR. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Was there a shortage of 6.5 pill offerings in Grendel that I was not aware of? No, but people have been wild-catting the Grendel basically since it came out to 6mm for target work. Less drop, more MV, with 107/108gr class 6mm bullets having the same or better BCs compared to 123gr 6.5mm target bullets, with less recoil. With 6.5 Grendel, you normally aren't pushing much past 2650fps with a 123gr hand-loaded from a 24" barrel, while factory ammo is somewhere between 2580-2620fps. With 6mm AR and now 6mm ARC, you can push a 103-108gr bullet at 2750fps from a 24" barrel with factory ammo with a better BC bullet. The gun basically doesn't move when you break the shot, since the projectile weight is so low and chamber pressure isn't that high. Many of us have been advocating for a factory 6mm Grendel for a long time, primarily for target and varmint work. This is basically a Valkyrie killer for those that wanted a smaller bore option than 6.5 Grendel. It's not just another cartridge, but an actual performance advantage that is ideal within the AR15. It is more forgiving of positional free-recoil when shooting a gas gun as well, like .223 Rem or lighter-loaded Grendel is. There is still a wider range of projectile types and weights for 6.5mm looking at 85-160gr, versus 55-115gr in 6mm. I think I’ve asked you this before, have you done much work with the 107TMK? My max load is 30.5gns of TAC which yields 2645fps from an 18” Alexander arms barrel. I think I can get close to 2700 with a longer barrel, either way the 107TMK is a very impressive bullet in the Grendel I have not done any load development with the 6.5mm 107gr TMK yet. I've done a bit with 107gr SMK, which will do 2450-2500fps from a 12" Grendel. That's what my buddy uses with his 12" I built him, on top of 8208XBR. I just got a 20” barrel in from Ballistic advantage to try to gain a few more FPS. I’ll post the results in the big Grendel tread as soon as I can get a chance to shoot it. I might try them on a whitetail this fall as well. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 3:29:41 PM EST
[#48]
I see this as a great coyote round. More punch than 223 in the same gun sized package.
12" barrel/suppressed for night time hunting. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 3:35:17 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryI still can't figure out if AMU or 5th Group actually "adopted" 6.8SPC way back when... I'm assuming 6ARC was a Program of Record. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 3:36:23 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder how it compares to the 6mm PPC that Olympic was chambering back in 1991. It was my first AR-15. IIRC, it fired the 85gr Speer at 2700fps from my 16" barrel. Tony Rumore Tromix or the 6mm BR. the PPC was one of my favs. And my first gun built in smithing school. |
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