That's a completely different arguemnt from the one you were making before....

No, thats not the only solution, its just the popular answer of the moment.

I don't see anyone hackinga way at welfare. Come back when those folks have taken a financial hit.

Can I get a link with some dollar amounts?



For comparison.

I had a whole discourse written out, but I removed it to post this video. Government should be far more like Sandy Springs, GA:







(RINOs, union members and statists don't watch the video!)

Bilingual cops are not the answer.   English as the official language of the USA and enforcing the laws on the books are.

How should public employees compensation be quantified?
-Ideally, public employees would be hired based on the qualifications or experience determined necessary for the job, on an individual basis.  If a compensation package of $X value draws 100 qualified applicants for each opening, the compensation is too high.  If it doesn't draw any qualified applicants, it's too low.  These packages would be evaluated on an annual basis, and increases to base compensation would be based on ability and contribution, not on years one has managed to not get fired.

"Qualifications" don't always mean qualified, what about people who meet minimum requirements but end up being crappy employees?
-This happens in the private workforce as well.  However, private enterprises have become very good at finding the employees they want, and weeding out people who would be poor fitting in their organization.  They may be allowed to use effective practices such as attitude and aptitude testing, that a public union might decry as unfavorable to "labor."  But it still happens, and when it does, and the company realizes they made a mistake, they fire the individual, something else made harder by union rules and regulation.

I don't have any bargaining power by myself!  How do I negotiate my wage as a single person?
-By being the best employee you can be?  Not exactly.  What you consider to be the ideal police officer, may differ from what your Chief considers an ideal police officer.  He might even be wrong with his definition.  But that doesn't matter.  You gain bargaining power by making yourself indispensable to your superiors, or the organization.

So you want me to write tickets and meet quotas?
-Not exactly.  Yes, an unimaginative, lazy, incompetent Chief or Sheriff or Captain may only be able to come up with "quotas" as an objective way to evaluate performance.  But it's a self healing solution.  Their boss, the populace who elected them, or elected the board that hired them, will decry that situation and remove that individual so he can be replaced by someone with more imaginative and meaningful metrics for performance.  

Well, I have to have a contract.  I can't be negotiating my wage every week because I was sick or had a bad day.
-Very few  people in the private sector have contracts guaranteeing their employment.  None of them negotiate their wage on anything but an annual or semiannual schedule.  Why would it be any different for you?

Political reasons.  The Mayor's nephew was ______ and I ________ him and now I don't have a contract protecting me!
-Some public employees need some form of protection from political backlash so they can concentrate on their job, instead of worrying about retaliation.  I don't believe a contract or a union is an efficient means of doing that.  An association of employees who did not have collective bargaining rights, but pooled resources for legal protection for instance.  Something other than a union which only exists to perpetuate itself.

Well, I've worked here ___ years.  That's worth something!  The new guy shouldn't make as much as me should he?
-Is the new guy a better employee than you?  In the non-union private sector, "loyalty" is rewarded, but it is not the sole defining aspect of an employees value to the company, and pales in comparison to those employees with less time at the company who make meaningful contributions to the advancement of the companies business.  Improvements are rewarded.  Doing the same thing, every day, the same way you did it last time, year in and year out, is not something to be rewarded.  That is barely meeting expectations, pushing the clutch in, skating by.

You have to pay $____ otherwise you're going to get people who aren't who you want dragging you out of a building/responding to your 911 call/etc.
-So you're telling me the only reason you are doing what you do was for the compensation?  There were no other determining factors in your choice of a career?  You didn't really want to be a fire fighter/cop/medic/correctional officer until you saw the compensation package?  Then you probably are one of those people you're talking about.  

It doesn't matter that the county/state/fed doesn't have any money.  You can't live without our services!
-Will my life be effected by a reduction of public services?  Of course it will.  But to claim that it would end or become drastically different is fear mongering.  A 10% reduction in police forces would not result in a 1000% increase in crime.  A 10% reduction in fire fighters would not result in every home burning to the ground.  A 10% reduction in corrections would not mean the releasing of every murderer and rapist convicted in the last 5 years.  If the money isn't there in the private sector, the workforce is reduced.  Someone downstream feels the pain of that as production slows, or lead times increase.  The company itself feels that with the loss of experience and training costs that will not be recouped, but the alternative is losing the company.  The public would rather have 90% of the current police force, than none of them.



Bottom line: There are no guarantees in the private sector.  You have to be the best employee you can, and hope for the best.  This creates an environment where, in general, those who contribute the most, are compensated the most.

The public sector is the opposite of that.  Contracts and collective bargaining guarantee continued employment for all but the most grievous errors or the most ridiculous actions.  This creates an environment that breeds an entitlement mentality, instead of one of continuous improvement.  It also breeds the vehement distaste that the public who is mostly employed by the private sector, for the "guarantees" that public employees are given.

Those numbers don't exist in the SE, Doesn't matter what rank I retire at .

Do you not know how to use an internet search engine?



Here's a few non-leftist (e.g. biased against private institutions) links I found ....





http://www.abtassoc.com/reports/ES-priv-report.pdf



http://governmentalinnovation.com/



If you're so inclined, there's a good book by Charles Logan on the pluses and minuses of privatized prisons .......



http://www.amazon.com/Private-Prisons-Charles-H-Logan/dp/0195063538



The bottom line is that private prisons are more like regional facilities, able to balance inmate populations over time by taking in prisoners from a multitude of states, whereas state run institutions may have flucuations in prison populations.  They are most often exempted from union labor requirements for the construction of and operations of the facility, not to mention exempted from public pension requirements, so they can be run less expensively.  And being private they can respond to changes in the dynamic more readily than public institutions.

Sorry, you seemed so sure of your self I figured i would let you point me in the direction of YOUR information.



I looked at the info you linked. Did you miss the part where I said "for comparison"? The very documents you linked to state that No comparison can be made.







I want to compare a CO's pay in the private sector to a CO's pay in the public sector. Same for medical officers, doctors employed to specificaly hired to treat inmates etc.



If Private is cheaper then we should move towards it as fast as we can because you are right, we are out of money, but so far i'm not convinced that privatizing prisons is the answer.

Doesn't matter to me what is comparable to the private sector. Total compensation of all public sector employees within a local budget is a function of tax revenue. You can make them as competitive or lowball as you want as long as it's within the current revenue stream.

That's. EXACTLY what he said...

The market sets the price most efficiently for commodities, even labor.

Txl

I agree, but the issue is Dane geld.

It's the difference between union talking points and understanding.  

Txl

I have no problem with public sector employees.  Contrary to what some believe, they are necessary for our governments to function.  They should get raises consistent with performance and the health of the government entity they work for.  If, for example, Florida is going bankrupt, no one within the government should get a raise.  If Florida is making a lot of money and projections are good, pay raises should occur as each job and performance warrant.

You know, like any other job.

There is a little more to seniority than that.      If everyone jumped ship with five years on, who's going to train the up and comers?    



Also, that's a pretty damn big assumption of you to assume that the only way that public sector employees keep their job is by "skating by".   That might be how you handle yourself, I guess, but most of us are better than that.    

Two things that would make gov't employees worth their pay.
Hold them accountable for their actions/omissions and expect them to perform work, not generate BS.

When the economy was booming people in the private sector looked down on Corrections, Cops and Fireman and mocked us



" You have to be crazy to work in a Jail, that must suck you couldn't pay me enough to do that "



Now that the economy took a shit, people look at us and say " It's not right that you get paid so much you got a great job, benefits and a pension, I don't have any of that "

Then why did he say the working conditions aren't a factor. They are indeed  a factor because a lot of docs aren't willing to work in that environment for the compensation offered.

Thats exactly what it all boils down to.

Ouch



 

Hmm... I'm a ten year veteran with a college degree, two advanced LEO certifications, no IA or use-of-force complaints EVER, a member of our homicide division and a computer forensics technician.

I make a base salary of $44,600 annually (usually around $50k with court and OT), and I contribute to TWO retirement accounts.

I have not had a raise in five years (2% in mid-2006), and the new starting salary for a fresh-faced first-day rookie with a college degree is almost $41k.

I think I picked the wrong department!

Dude, you're a pampered member of the new "elite" sucking on the public teat with your gold-plated salary and benefits package... all becuase you're in a union, no doubt!!





...or at least that's what a sizable portionm of ARFCOM thinks of of you.

Just sayin'....  If you pay more, you'll attract better quality candidates.  

My wife works for the .gov.  She'd probably quit if her pay was only $25k.  It wouldn't be worth all the stress.

i disagree.  

what gets people upset is the thinking that any specific employment situation should just continue unabated and unchanged, despite real world economic conditions.  this is not how things work.  

here is an example –– "i'm not getting the cheese union contract deal i thought i would –– is it unreasonable for me to complain?"
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1202226

note the lopsidedness of the responses.

––––

the topic linked above strikes a nerve with me because it uncovers a mentality of "someone else is at fault for my lot in life".  here is a news flash: YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR SITUATION.  not the union, not the government, not the taxpayers, not the neighbor, not your mommy.  YOU.  accept responsibility for YOUR SITUATION.  if you don't like it, do something else.  will it be hard to change?  yes.  will it be worth it?  perhaps.  but unless YOU take action, and stop blaming others for "sticking it to you" you will always be on the end of someone else's string.  that said, i think some folks actually enjoy being on the end of someone else's string.  but then don't complain that you want it both ways.

don't like your corporate job –– your boss is a Lumbergh-like moron and cubicle farms suck?  then quit –– and become a plumber, you will be your own boss, you can make tons of money and you won't be stuck in a cubicle all day.  see how that works?  

don't like your plumbing job –– standing in someone else's crap all day and chasing after people to get paid?  then quit –– and become a banker, there someone else pays you, you can make tons of money, and you won't be working in a crawlspace all day.  see how that works?  

don't like the fact that as a public sector employee that you are at the whim of current public sector cutbacks, and the now the scapegoat of current economic woes?  then quit... there are a 87 million other jobs out there, both in the public and private sector.  one day you too can start an ARFCOM thread, "ask a professional 'X' anything".  

i go to the county reclamation center because our (private, mind you) garbage collectors don't take paint cans –– and there is a receptionist and three guys sitting reading the paper, waiting for folks like me to show up with three paint cans.  i'm sure some days are busier than others.  when i asked the guy who painted my house what he does with his empty cans, he said "i have to take them to the reclamation center."  i asked if they were ever "busy" when he was there.  "nope, everyone is usually sitting around reading the paper."

someday, someone is going to figure out that the reclamation center is overstaffed.  and the folks there are going to get interviewed by the paper and talk about how "it's not fair" and (to paraphrase a line from the linked thread above) "they are just using the bad economy as an excuse to screw us"

with that much free time on their hands they could have opened a textbook and studied for a real estate license, or opened a textbook and learned how to use Microsoft Excel, or opened a textbook and learned how to incorporate a small business, or opened a textbook and learned how to blow glassware, or one of 87 million possible other jobs.  instead, they read a couple of newpapers from front to back, every day.  they have no one to blame but themselves for their situation.  

i am both an employee and an employer.  by that i mean someone else directly controls my salary (and my employment status for that matter), and i in turn directly control the salaries of others (and their employment status as well).  it is a great responsibility, as anyone who has employed others knows.  but not for a second do i believe that my role could not be done by someone else, for a dollar less.  remove me from the equation and the space will be filled in the same way that water flows in when you pull your finger out a glass.  this is the case FOR ANY JOB.   to that end i work the same way the folks under me work –– committed to the success of the organization as a whole but a tiny bit more committed to the success of oneself.  there are no guarantees in life, most certainly when it comes to employment ... so keep your skills sharp, continually learn, stay networked, attend classes, keep your resume up to date, always expect the worst, and look out for number one.  because shit happens, and no one else is going to look out for you.  not your union, not your employer, not your government, not your neighbor, not your mommy.  YOU have to take the responsibility for YOUR SITUATION.

or you can read the newspaper end-to-end every day and then blame someone else.

so,

private sector: you don't get a pay raise just for doing your job.  assuming funds are available for raises, you get a pay raise for doing your job better than others, or doing more than your job.  it's a capitalistic meritocracy, not a jobs program with lockstep raises.  and if no funds are available for raises, then there are no raises.  and if too few funds are available for salaries and all other options have been exhausted, you cut employees.  it's that simple.  i don't see why this approach can't apply in the public sector as well.

ar-jedi

Your example aside, most public sector jobs do not have a whole lot of fat left in the ranks and in the budget, especially when departments have been told for the last 5-6 years that they need to come up with 10% cuts every year.

As for your comment about raises, sooner or later you need to come up with some extra pay for your employees, but inflation is steadily eroding their buying power every year you fail to give them a raise. People here will call it market forces; whatever.They can't go 5-8 years without a raise.

Can you cite one example where a "private" business (ie GM/Ford/etc) was forced by .gov to remain open/producing goods/services at a loss in order to meet union demands - and no, the recent GM bail out doesn't count?

Brian

And he isn't even right.  Quite a few police/fire departments have greatly offset their costs by generating their own income.

My buddy's dad was one of the guys that started up the local FD's Ambulance service in...fuck I can't remember the town.  The first year they ran it they ran a surplus of over 300,000 dollars.  That's including the start up costs of buying equipment, ambulances, ect.  When run properly, a fire department can generate a decent amount of revenue.

Our local building inspectors don't get a dime of tax money.  The entire department is self sufficient with enough left over to run a BIG surplus.  Companies spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on inspections, permits, ect.  Now your local road worker working for a private contractor?  His salary is 100% tax money.

So... educate yourself.

How much public employees get paid is immaterial to me as long as there are no unions.

you have oversimplified this.  

i "outsource" the work of submitting my taxes to the IRS.  my accountant in turn charges me a fee, which represents not only his time but also the amortized/apportioned cost of his professional licensing, staffing, work location, capital equipment (computers), etc.  –– in other words i don't pay for his entire business costs, i pay a share of it.  this is efficiency via economy of scale.   i don't hire a full-time accountant to come live with me so i can use him every april for 2 weeks.

to follow your example ... a private contractor doing road work shares similar attributes; namely, the equipment can be shared across multiple "customers", resources can be allocated depending on budget and time constraints, and so on.  if for example one community needed to "rotate" less-needed functions on an every other year basis, it's not problem with an outside contractor; with a staffed road department, that is not possible –– you are stuck with the overhead, including salaries and capital depreciation.  

that said, i don't see the analogy you attempted with your building/permit department.  if they are currently charging fees for permits, an outside contractor could clearly do so as well.  hence the costs can be recovered, in part/full/excess.  where is the "100% tax money"?

by the way, with the "BIG surpluses" (your words) you are running in your community, it sounds like your property taxes should be going down.  are they?

ar-jedi

So in on this trainwreck.

Pay raise ever?   Yes for merit base raises, yes for reasonable COLA for non-collective rights employees.
Health Insurance?   I'd expect between $50 to $100 monthly paycheck deduction for family of four for medical,  co-payment of $25 per visit, and no true PPO plans; one-time pay of $50K for retirement medical, participation at 100% of retiree medical discount pool until eligible for medicare.
Dental Insurance?   I'd expect $10/month deduction from paycheck for family, plus $25 co-payment per visit.
Life Insurance?  I'd expect accidental death on the job to be free, but life insurance to be 100% by employee towards a negotiated discount pool.
Eye Car Insurance?  I'd expect $5 to $10 month paycheck deduction for family.
Retirement?  I'd expect cash-balance plan in a 401K with 25% matching
Social Security?  I'd expect all to be subject to FICA and SS eligible.

Sounds very reasonable to me as these are good, common benefits in the private sector.

I'm not saying contractors are a bad thing.  I know a lot of the work they contract out would be much more expensive to do with city employees.

The outside contractors use the city department for any inspections or permits that need to be done.  The owner of the property has to pay any of those fees.  Maybe I'm missing your point but even if a contractor is doing the work, all those fees still go back to the city.  If you were to contract out the inspections and permit process those fees would go to the inspection company instead of the city.  Any inspections done on government projects aren't paid for by the construction contractor, they are "paid" by the city, to the city.

No, they don't go down because instead we decide to build things like 4 million dollar libraries.

Wow... I'll have to tell my friends in the Army Corps of Engineers that they are doing things wrong by sending projects out for competitive bids... seeking "best value".  Before you come off as any more foolish, perhaps you should actually read the Davis-Bacon Act of 1931... and the reasons it was established.
 
Too late.  You really believe federal employees can't unionize?  WOW!  Every sentence you type is dumber than the last.  Why don't you google "AFGE" and see what comes up, Skippy?

(edited to remove the avalanche of nested quotes)

lol.

Spoken like someone who deserves a raise, cause he shows up to work most of the time....
You do know if you don't get a raise in 5-8 years, you can quit, right?
A public employee....  lol..

TXL

Not a train wreck, the same old producers with an education on the world trying to teach the uneducated about market forces, and economic choices when there is a limited amount of capital.  Which has been the case for the last 70 years, but they do not comprehend.  Deficit spending is prima facie evidence of this.

Most folks would do well to read Basic Economics by Thomas Sowell

TXL

Exactly.

I'll be quite honest, I can remember, in the last 20 years, exactly one public employee outside police/fire/military who would have a job the next day if they worked for a private organization.  One.  I don't have a lot of exposure to high level engineers or city planners or what have you, but EVERY SINGLE DMV/DoE/code enforcement/Public Works employee I have every had the 'pleasure' to try to work with has been apathetic, unhelpful and usually incompetent.  That's why the one person who was actually helpful, knowledgeable and courteous stuck out so much like a sore thumb.  That's a pretty horrible record, and includes city, county state and federal level workers.   Frankly, a frighteningly large proportion of all the military and police I've worked with are also stuck firmly in the 'why on earth are you still employed' category.

I've spent more time in private industry making money for companies than I have in public service and I think there are some seriously delusional people in this thread that don't know what they're talking about when it comes to private or public employment.

Brian

Some of our local volunteer ambulance services are trying to set up fee structures to cover some of their costs and you should hear the howls of protest. The reality is that SOME people have latched onto the volunteer ambulances as a way to get themselves into town where they then sign themselves out of the ER, go about their business in town and then  get home via a pre-paid taxi service through DSS. There is only so long you're going to mistreat a volunteer service before the volunteers get burnt out and don't want to participate anymore. You'd think they were asking for firstborn kids now that they want to charge.

A PD making money? Sorry, but that shouldn't even be a consideration.



Unions are still needed in LE.



Twenty years and only one good guy, eh?
Given such a long time period and your farflung interactions with so many disparate people and groups, my instinct is to look for the common element present in all of your problems that might be causing your problems, and that element is you.

A PD won't make a surplus but they do bring in revenue.  A lot of it.

As long as the quality of work is acceptable.

It actually should be a little less.





The job security of the public sector adds value.

Having worked at a major state university as adjunct faculty, I can personally verify that they were many ghost employees on the university staff.
When I took another job as a state bureaucrat, they continued to pay me for the university job even though I had quit.
It took me almost three months to get the automatic deposit of the university check stopped.
I was drawing TWO MONTHLY SALARIES from the state for TWO DIFFERENT JOBS at the same time.
The payroll master got tired of me harassing him to stop the check.
He told me personally "We have other people that don't work here that draw paychecks and they don't complain."
I wish I had recorded that statement.
No state LE agency or even state legislator wanted to hear about it.
I did refund the money after a long argument about the amount they wanted refunded.
They couldn't even get that straight.
I quit the state a few months later because I don't deal with people who don't do their jobs.
They have positions, not jobs and absolutely no accountability.
I saw a lot of that with both federal and state employees.
Our gov't is out of control.
Our elected officials are bad, but I honestly believe our gov't bureaucrats are even worse than in many openly corrupt banana republics.

Not really.