User Panel
Posted: 4/11/2024 10:04:32 AM EDT
Washington Post Justice Dept. finalizes rules to close ‘gun show loophole’
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/final-rule-definition-engaged-business-dealer-firearms (cold) A firearm with a pen laying on an official application to own or manufacture a firearm. On April 10, 2024, the Attorney General signed ATF’s final rule, Definition of “Engaged in the Business” as a Dealer in Firearms, amending ATF’s regulations in title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (“CFR”), part 478. The final rule implements the provisions of the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act (“BSCA,” effective June 25, 2022), which broadened the definition of when a person is considered “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms (other than a gunsmith or pawnbroker). The Final Rule clarifies that definition. It will be published in the Federal Register and will be effective 30-days from publication. This final rule incorporates BSCA’s definitions of “predominantly earn a profit” and “terrorism,” and amends the regulatory definitions of “engaged in the business as a dealer other than a gunsmith or pawnbroker” and “principal objective of livelihood and profit” to ensure each conforms with the BSCA’s statutory changes and can be relied upon by the public. The final rule clarifies when a person is “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms at wholesale or retail by: clarifying the definition of “dealer,” and defining the terms “purchase,” “sale,” and “something of value” as they apply to dealers; adding definitions for the term “personal collection (or personal collection of firearms, or personal firearms collection),” and for “responsible person”; setting forth conduct that is presumed to constitute “engaging in the business” of dealing in firearms, and presumed to demonstrate the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” from the sale or disposition of firearms, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, in civil and administrative proceedings; clarifying that the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” does not require the person to have received pecuniary gain, and that intent does not have to be shown when a person purchases or sells a firearm for criminal or terrorism purposes; clarifying the circumstances when a person would not be presumed to engaged in the business of dealing in firearms, including as an auctioneer, or when purchasing firearms for, and selling firearms from, a personal collection; addressing the procedures former licensees, and responsible persons acting on behalf of such licensees, must follow when they liquidate business inventory upon revocation or other termination of their license; and clarifying that licensees must follow the verification and recordkeeping procedures in 27 CFR 478.94 and Subpart H, rather than using an ATF Form 4473 when firearms are transferred to other licensees, including transfers by a licensed sole proprietor to that person’s personal collection. Please note that this is the text of the final rule as signed by the Attorney General, but the official version of the final rule will be as it is published in the Federal Register. The rule will go into effect once it is published in the Federal Register. View Quote https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/ruling/atf-final-rule-definition-engaged-business-dealer-firearms/download (466 pages) ETA: BREAKING NEWS: ATF's New Rule Is LIVE & It Affects YOU! Engaged In The Business BREAKING NEWS: ATF's New Rule Is LIVE & It Affects YOU! Engaged In The Business ETA: 04/18/2024 Set to publish Friday 4/19/2024 Attached File Current links are to the unpublished: Federal Register: 04/18/2024 Public Inspection Issue Permalink: Bipartisan Safer Communities Act Conforming Regulations (Rule) Bipartisan Safer Communities Act Conforming Regulations (41 page Rule pdf) Permalink: Definition of Engaged in the Business as a Dealer in Firearms (416 pages) Definition of Engaged in the Business as a Dealer in Firearms (416 page PDF) ETA: 05/01/2024 Ar15.com: Texas AG Ken Paxton sues Biden Administration over ban on private firearms sales Texas AG Ken Paxton sues Biden Administration over ban on private firearms sales Kansas filed suit is Eastern District of Arkansas. https://ag.ks.gov/docs/default-source/documents/atf-complaint- same document from court listener Texas suit. Quoted: Here is a link to the complaint (PDF): https://foundation.gunowners.org/files/legal/1%20-%20Complaint.pdf STATE OF TEXAS, STATE OF LOUISIANA, STATE OF MISSISSIPPI, STATE OF UTAH, JEFFREY W. TORMEY, GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA, INC., GUN OWNERS FOUNDATION, TENNESSEE FIREARMS ASSOCIATION, and VIRGINIA CITIZENS DEFENSE LEAGUE, Plaintiffs, v. BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES, UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, MERRICK GARLAND, in his official capacity as Attorney General of the United States, and STEVEN M. DETTELBACH, in his official capacity as Director of ATF, Defendants. View Quote |
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BREAKING NEWS!! New ATF Rules On Dealing Guns Released
BREAKING NEWS!! New ATF Rules On Dealing Guns Released |
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So if you have an FFL you can't perform any private sales? I know what they want to do but I can't really tell what they are doing.
EDIT: ATF is gay So if I sell a 100 year-old bourbon do I need a liquor license? |
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God the ATF sucks so much dick. All of the dick.
Fuuuuuuuuck the ATF. |
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Why bother even having a Congress if .gov agencies and the potato potus simply make up whatever laws they want?
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buh bye private transferable sales. since they are hardly for profit. cocksuckers.
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Similarly, there is no minimum number of transactions that determines whether a person is “engaged in the business” of dealing in firearms. Even a single firearm transaction, or offer to engage in a transaction, when combined with other evidence, may be sufficient to require a license. For example, even under the previous statutory definition, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when few firearms, if any, were actually sold, when other factors were also present, such as the person representing to others a willingness and ability to repetitively purchase firearms for resale. View Quote Here we go... |
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This kills any online or advertised private sales. You can still sell. You just better be sure it isn’t an atf agent and someone you trust who won’t shoot up a bunch of shit then tell them you sold them the gun or an aTF trace bring it back to you.
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Quoted: Similarly, there is no minimum number of transactions that determines whether a person is “engaged in the business” of dealing in firearms. Even a single firearm transaction, or offer to engage in a transaction, when combined with other evidence, may be sufficient to require a license. For example, even under the previous statutory definition, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when few firearms, if any, were actually sold, when other factors were also present, such as the person representing to others a willingness and ability to repetitively purchase firearms for resale. Here we go... Then I can have an ffl without ever selling a single gun |
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Can one of you retired boomers read the 466 pages and give cliff notes to the busy people paying into your social security.
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setting forth conduct that is presumed to constitute “engaging in the business” of dealing in firearms, and presumed to demonstrate the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” from the sale or disposition of firearms, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, in civil and administrative proceedings; clarifying that the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” does not require the person to have received pecuniary gain, and that intent does not have to be shown when a person purchases or sells a firearm for criminal or terrorism purposes; View Quote So everyone is a dealer. Attached File Kharn |
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So any collector who expects his/her collection to go up in value could be a dealer even if they are only holding inventory to sell at a later date?
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This is almost like some morbid Jeff Foxworthy comedy routine, "You may actually be a dealer if..."
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Quoted: If you sell for a "profit" then yes. View Quote By that definition, anyone that sells or trades in their vehicle for more than they paid needs to be a licensed car dealer. Anyone that sells their house for more than they paid for it years ago needs to be a licensed real estate agent, etc. Who decides what a firearm is worth over time? I guess if I want to sell a gun I no longer want I will self declare the value to me as $10,000 so that I will be selling at a major loss. |
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I ignore Illinois' laws as much as I could. I think I'll do the same with these rules too.
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Quoted: Can one of you retired boomers read the 466 pages and give cliff notes to the busy people paying into your social security. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Can one of you retired boomers read the 466 pages and give cliff notes to the busy people paying into your social security. You sell gun. You go jail. Or maybe you no go jail. ATF decide. Here's the one that will probably have the most impact from the rule text: Presumptions that a person is engaged in the business as a dealer. In civil and administrative proceedings, a person shall be presumed to be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms as defined in paragraph (a) of this section, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, when it is shown that the person— ... (3) Repetitively resells or offers for resale firearms (i) Within 30 days after the person purchased the firearms; or (ii) Within one year after the person purchased the firearms if they are (A) New, or like new in their original packaging; or (B) The same make and model, or variants thereof; It seems like "repetitively" would be either 2+ or 3+. Some of their Armslist examples mention an average of 3 sales per user. |
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If the ATF is requiring FFL's, they better actually issue FFL's to people without storefronts, operating hours, LLC's, secure storage, etc.
Having two different definitions of who needs an FFL and who they will issue one too isn't going to work in front of an unbiased judge. I know they don't care about this contradiction. This also opens the door to challenging the entire FFL licensing scheme, which very clearly fails a Bruen analysis and has no historical analogues. |
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Sounds like it's time for a little text, history and tradition. Did FFLs exist at the time of the founding?
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Quoted: I would, but I’m busy scratching my balls, drinking coffee and surfing Arfcom. Maybe after my nap…. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Can one of you retired boomers read the 466 pages and give cliff notes to the busy people paying into your social security. I would, but I’m busy scratching my balls, drinking coffee and surfing Arfcom. Maybe after my nap…. I converted the last 15 pages ( new text) to .jpg and posted them above. |
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Is it for profit if a storage/safekeeping fee was accrued/assessed during the time I owned it? I imagine I've lost money on each one I've sold!
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466 pages? Impossible to understand or comply with. Probably intended it that way.
Court challenge for this likely? |
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Does this apply to the car trunk dealing hood rats too?
Asking for a friend |
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What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud.
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View Quote Who the fuck allows those cock suckers to have a booth at shot show? |
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Ever wonder why those making these "Rules", hate what they are regulating so fiercely?
Our government is supposed to protect freedoms yet all its done in the last 75 years or so is remove them. |
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Quoted: What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud. View Quote Great question. It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL. If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer? |
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