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Posted: 2/25/2016 10:06:10 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I want standards, not rules. I think the professionals who DO the work are in the best position to apply those standards and their customers are in the best position to judge the application. Roe v. Wade has me torn. Ultimately I think the states should decide what laws suit their inhabitants. However, I also believe that the right to do what you want to your own body IS a right that should be nationally codified. I also think people should be able to to choose euthanasia for themselves and I think if RvW says I can kill my fetus, it naturally follows I should be able to kill myself (but, I digress). This is a weird subject, for me. I firmly believe that abortion is morally reprehensible BUT, I think that is a choice that every mother should be able to make. I'm not going to argue the meaningless and esoteric philosophical points of the child's rights, murder vs surgery, fetus vs mass of cells, baby vs parasite, etc. It's all just tinsel, meant to hide the real argument. Should people be able to do with their bodies as they please? I think they should, and I hate that some people choose to abort babies. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No it isn't--you simply do not know or understand the regulations and requirements behind an office based procedure that you didn't think was a big deal. OTOH, abortion clinics were exempted from the rules that cover the rest of us because it's like a sacred sacrament to the left. The laws which were presented and passed and argued as being an improvement to health and standards that we all must keep. Every discussion I saw presented that in that manner and wasn't about "shutting down abortion." Although that may have been an underlying motive, they were not presented that way in the legislature. I think your are being a tad bit disingenuous with that statement. You and I have very different recollections of the 2010-2013 legislative fury that gave rise to these "common sense regulations that the nation lived without for a bunch of decades without much ado." But, maybe you're right. My ignorance regarding the specifics of the procedure may be a hobbling point in this debate. I guess I assume that if the world is running well without interference from government it's ALWAYS best to leave it that way. Because if you think our problems are bad, just wait until you see the government's solutions. I doubt we're going to actually see a sharp decline in abortions. I think we're going to see a sharp decline in *reported* abortions and noticeable uptick in complications and self injury from a lack of available care, though. I hope I'm wrong. I just don't think that forcing clinic closures is the *most* effective way to end the wholesale slaughter of children. In fact, I doubt it will be very effective at all. I agree that you are correct--the government should leave things alone and leave decisions at the lowest level. However, by that standard, a federal ruling live Roe v.Wade that forced all the states to comply was much more a violation of the principle of less government than in infividual states passing rules. Obviously, you want some rules and standards and regulations because you've objected to untrained back alley coat hanger abortions earlier, yes? I want standards, not rules. I think the professionals who DO the work are in the best position to apply those standards and their customers are in the best position to judge the application. Roe v. Wade has me torn. Ultimately I think the states should decide what laws suit their inhabitants. However, I also believe that the right to do what you want to your own body IS a right that should be nationally codified. I also think people should be able to to choose euthanasia for themselves and I think if RvW says I can kill my fetus, it naturally follows I should be able to kill myself (but, I digress). This is a weird subject, for me. I firmly believe that abortion is morally reprehensible BUT, I think that is a choice that every mother should be able to make. I'm not going to argue the meaningless and esoteric philosophical points of the child's rights, murder vs surgery, fetus vs mass of cells, baby vs parasite, etc. It's all just tinsel, meant to hide the real argument. Should people be able to do with their bodies as they please? I think they should, and I hate that some people choose to abort babies. You neglect to mention that the baby is unable to choose what happens to it's body. And that is what makes it murder. That's not tinsel, that's the core of the issue. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 10:07:04 AM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you oppose abortion, because of "murdering babies"--then you can't whine too much about welfare. More abortions = less welfare. How about "no" There would be less welfare if we went around murdering welfare recipients too, but that doesn't make it right now does it? |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 10:07:46 AM EST
[#3]
no abortion clinics? nothing else for it, the government has to open government publicly funded abortion clinics to serve the underserved poor..............it is for the best, it meets our common values as a nation, our common values as a society.
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Posted: 2/25/2016 10:11:44 AM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How about "no" There would be less welfare if we went around murdering welfare recipients too, but that doesn't make it right now does it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you oppose abortion, because of "murdering babies"--then you can't whine too much about welfare. More abortions = less welfare. How about "no" There would be less welfare if we went around murdering welfare recipients too, but that doesn't make it right now does it? What if we did away with welfare, and we did away with on demand abortions? perhaps we would be a better society. Perhaps we would not have our eugenically bent progressives holding sway over our society. Perhaps we would then develop a sense of personal responsibility reestablished in our culture our society. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 10:11:53 AM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you oppose abortion, because of "murdering babies"--then you can't whine too much about welfare. More abortions = less welfare. A non-sequitur. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 10:14:28 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Murder is unlawful killing, abortion is legal therefore not murder. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you oppose abortion, because of "murdering babies"--then you can't whine too much about welfare. More abortions = less welfare. Well if murder makes other things better then lets have more of it! Murder is unlawful killing, abortion is legal therefore not murder. Slavery was endorsed by the same court that ruled on abortion. Slavery was legal...until it wasn't. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 10:45:51 AM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's illogical. Financial constraints have never been justification for taking a human life. Preventing one crime does not limit one from complaining about another. You might as well say that if you make theft illegal you can't complain about the welfare the thieves need if they don't have your cash. Besides, they are not being "forced out of business," there is a combination of laws that limit public funding for this private medical procedure and regulations that make abortion clinics rise to the same regulations and standards of any other medical clinic that provides treatments of the same level of invasiveness. If a clinic does not want too meet the same medical standards that every one else has to, then tough. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you oppose abortion, because of "murdering babies"--then you can't whine too much about welfare. More abortions = less welfare. That's illogical. Financial constraints have never been justification for taking a human life. Preventing one crime does not limit one from complaining about another. You might as well say that if you make theft illegal you can't complain about the welfare the thieves need if they don't have your cash. Besides, they are not being "forced out of business," there is a combination of laws that limit public funding for this private medical procedure and regulations that make abortion clinics rise to the same regulations and standards of any other medical clinic that provides treatments of the same level of invasiveness. If a clinic does not want too meet the same medical standards that every one else has to, then tough. This. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 10:48:31 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You must've not been on the net for very long, join date notwithstanding. Trying to compare a voluntary medical procedure to the actual rounding up of living, already born, have their own fucking lives people is absolutely the largest pile of horse shit I see on this website. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Godwin's law has nothing to do with winning or losing. It simply suggests that comparisons to Nazi Germany will be made in a discussion. You must've not been on the net for very long, join date notwithstanding. there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's law. Trying to compare a voluntary medical procedure to the actual rounding up of living, already born, have their own fucking lives people is absolutely the largest pile of horse shit I see on this website. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 11:00:39 AM EST
[#9]
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Life is continuous before conception and after conception. The big change is when brain activity begins. From that point on you are dealing with another person and they should receive recognition as such. If someone purposefully takes action to end that new persons brain activity it should legally be treated as the homicide it is. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Out of curiosity, how do people feel about the morning after pill? If arguing that life begins at conception, the definition of murder would apply here as well. So what constitutes brain activity? A few neurons firing or a fully developed brain? Serious question, I want to see what the consensus is here. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 11:05:59 AM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what constitutes brain activity? A few neurons firing or a fully developed brain? Serious question, I want to see what the consensus is here. Babies/toddlers don't achieve full self-awareness until about 1.5 to 2 years old. So I'd say about one year post-birth would be a good benchmark. That, of course, assumes a normally developing child. Learning disabilities, developmental problems, genetic anomalies, etc could push that significantly, possibly to the point that it never happens. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 11:06:13 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what constitutes brain activity? A few neurons firing or a fully developed brain? Serious question, I want to see what the consensus is here. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Out of curiosity, how do people feel about the morning after pill? If arguing that life begins at conception, the definition of murder would apply here as well. So what constitutes brain activity? A few neurons firing or a fully developed brain? Serious question, I want to see what the consensus is here. When we are talking about "brain activity" we are talking about organized activity in the cortex, not a few neurons firing. The fetal brain has demonstrable complex EEG activity at about the 24th week, however, that is because the studies were done on severely premature infants since it is problematic to attempt a full EEG in utero. The structures responsible, however, are fully formed at the 12 week. Your brain, BTW is not "fully developed" until after puberty actually. Although there are some teenagers I'd like to abort sometimes  they are still considered roughly human.
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Posted: 2/25/2016 11:07:41 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What if we did away with welfare, and we did away with on demand abortions? perhaps we would be a better society. Perhaps we would not have our eugenically bent progressives holding sway over our society. Perhaps we would then develop a sense of personal responsibility reestablished in our culture our society. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you oppose abortion, because of "murdering babies"--then you can't whine too much about welfare. More abortions = less welfare. How about "no" There would be less welfare if we went around murdering welfare recipients too, but that doesn't make it right now does it? What if we did away with welfare, and we did away with on demand abortions? perhaps we would be a better society. Perhaps we would not have our eugenically bent progressives holding sway over our society. Perhaps we would then develop a sense of personal responsibility reestablished in our culture our society. This may come as a shock, but personal responsibility was never really established in our society. Humanity is hell bent on skirting responsibility. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 11:08:50 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So what constitutes brain activity? A few neurons firing or a fully developed brain? Serious question, I want to see what the consensus is here. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Out of curiosity, how do people feel about the morning after pill? If arguing that life begins at conception, the definition of murder would apply here as well. So what constitutes brain activity? A few neurons firing or a fully developed brain? Serious question, I want to see what the consensus is here. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 11:21:30 AM EST
[#14]
What ever happened to Men?
It's sad as to the number of adult males in this thread who believe it is OK to take an innocent life. Abortion is barbaric plain and simple, you truly have to be warped to see it another way. Some apparently are fine with it because it's legal but many legal atrocities have been done; it does not make them right. The problem is not with the innocent life, the problem is that we no longer have Men but boys in adult bodies. Where are the Real Men, the ones who understand that it is wrong to take an innocent life? Have so many truly fallen so far as to believe that abortion is OK. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 11:22:21 AM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you oppose abortion, because of "murdering babies"--then you can't whine too much about welfare. More abortions = less welfare. Derp What I want is personal responsibility. Killing a baby isn't the solution. It's not a zero sum game. Why not kill 10 year olds? Well I can't afford them and I'm on welfare so little Timmy has to go. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 11:27:53 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Murder is unlawful killing, abortion is legal therefore not murder. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you oppose abortion, because of "murdering babies"--then you can't whine too much about welfare. More abortions = less welfare. Well if murder makes other things better then lets have more of it! Murder is unlawful killing, abortion is legal therefore not murder. I guess if it was legal to murder welfare recipients, it would be okay then, sound like we need to change the law to make things ok. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 11:29:15 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you oppose abortion, because of "murdering babies"--then you can't whine too much about welfare. More abortions = less welfare. False dichotomy. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 11:56:21 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What ever happened to Men? Loss of accountability. Is that good enough for you, or do you want a more detailed answer?
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Posted: 2/25/2016 1:04:45 PM EST
[#19]
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The abortion rate has been decreasing while crime has been decreasing, could there possibly be a correlation there? Or are facts to hard? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If abortion lowered the welfare rate, then why do the welfare rolls continue to grow despite our nation having committed 30,000,000+ abortions since Roe V. Wade? Could there possibly be a correlation between the high rate of abortions and the lowering crime rate? The abortion rate has been decreasing while crime has been decreasing, could there possibly be a correlation there? Or are facts to hard? Could there also be a correlation to the easier access to contraceptives and more sexual education? Are conjectures posted on a message board really facts? |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 1:12:04 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Out of curiosity, how do people feel about the morning after pill? If arguing that life begins at conception, the definition of murder would apply here as well. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 1:13:24 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: bullshit. Here is why crime dropped. NO hypothesis required. http://fcnl.org/resources/newsletter/septoct11/Prison_Rates_1880.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you oppose abortion, because of "murdering babies"--then you can't whine too much about welfare. More abortions = less welfare. Hmmmm.......... most folks don't look at it this way. You do have a very valid point.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk6gOeggViwbullshit. Here is why crime dropped. NO hypothesis required. http://fcnl.org/resources/newsletter/septoct11/Prison_Rates_1880.jpg |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 1:17:26 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What ever happened to Men? It's sad as to the number of adult males in this thread who believe it is OK to take an innocent life. Abortion is barbaric plain and simple, you truly have to be warped to see it another way. Some apparently are fine with it because it's legal but many legal atrocities have been done; it does not make them right. The problem is not with the innocent life, the problem is that we no longer have Men but boys in adult bodies. Where are the Real Men, the ones who understand that it is wrong to take an innocent life? Have so many truly fallen so far as to believe that abortion is OK. So is abortion wrong in all cases? If a 13 year old girl was abducted, raped, and later rescued, should she be forced to give birth to the pedo's baby? What if the mother will die in childbirth? Should it be banned in all cases? I know that someine will say "such cases of abortions never happen", which mirrors anti-gunner claims that "assault weapons" have never been used for self-defense. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 1:18:50 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Derp What I want is personal responsibility. Killing a baby isn't the solution. It's not a zero sum game. Why not kill 10 year olds? Well I can't afford them and I'm on welfare so little Timmy has to go. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you oppose abortion, because of "murdering babies"--then you can't whine too much about welfare. More abortions = less welfare. Derp What I want is personal responsibility. Killing a baby isn't the solution. It's not a zero sum game. Why not kill 10 year olds? Well I can't afford them and I'm on welfare so little Timmy has to go. Little Timmy can survive on his own. Little Timmy is not 100% dependent on survival by living in his mother's womb. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 1:27:24 PM EST
[#24]
"I support excessive government regulation as long as it supports my pet cause"
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Posted: 2/25/2016 1:31:36 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So is abortion wrong in all cases? If a 13 year old girl was abducted, raped, and later rescued, should she be forced to give birth to the pedo's baby? What if the mother will die in childbirth? Should it be banned in all cases? I know that someine will say "such cases of abortions never happen"... But it is rare. Exceptionally so. It's simply not a blanket moral justification for abortion-on-demand without cause. "Oh, but what if she was raped?" Okay, show me the police report. I want the rapist caught and tried. "Oh, but what if the mother is going to die?" One, that's both exceptionally rare and not easily predicted, and two, okay, well then any OB should have no problem performing the required procedure(s) to save their patient. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that no doctor worth their salt is going to stand around and watch an otherwise healthy patient die a preventable death because of any law. Regardless, I'd rather focus on things that are actually widespread problems, instead of relying on pet hypotheticals dreamed up by people who simply want to justify killing babies. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 1:34:45 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So is abortion wrong in all cases? If a 13 year old girl was abducted, raped, and later rescued, should she be forced to give birth to the pedo's baby? What if the mother will die in childbirth? Should it be banned in all cases? I know that someine will say "such cases of abortions never happen", which mirrors anti-gunner claims that "assault weapons" have never been used for self-defense. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What ever happened to Men? It's sad as to the number of adult males in this thread who believe it is OK to take an innocent life. Abortion is barbaric plain and simple, you truly have to be warped to see it another way. Some apparently are fine with it because it's legal but many legal atrocities have been done; it does not make them right. The problem is not with the innocent life, the problem is that we no longer have Men but boys in adult bodies. Where are the Real Men, the ones who understand that it is wrong to take an innocent life? Have so many truly fallen so far as to believe that abortion is OK. So is abortion wrong in all cases? If a 13 year old girl was abducted, raped, and later rescued, should she be forced to give birth to the pedo's baby? What if the mother will die in childbirth? Should it be banned in all cases? I know that someine will say "such cases of abortions never happen", which mirrors anti-gunner claims that "assault weapons" have never been used for self-defense. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 1:35:09 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So is abortion wrong in all cases? If a 13 year old girl was abducted, raped, and later rescued, should she be forced to give birth to the pedo's baby? What if the mother will die in childbirth? Should it be banned in all cases? I know that someine will say "such cases of abortions never happen", which mirrors anti-gunner claims that "assault weapons" have never been used for self-defense. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What ever happened to Men? It's sad as to the number of adult males in this thread who believe it is OK to take an innocent life. Abortion is barbaric plain and simple, you truly have to be warped to see it another way. Some apparently are fine with it because it's legal but many legal atrocities have been done; it does not make them right. The problem is not with the innocent life, the problem is that we no longer have Men but boys in adult bodies. Where are the Real Men, the ones who understand that it is wrong to take an innocent life? Have so many truly fallen so far as to believe that abortion is OK. So is abortion wrong in all cases? If a 13 year old girl was abducted, raped, and later rescued, should she be forced to give birth to the pedo's baby? What if the mother will die in childbirth? Should it be banned in all cases? I know that someine will say "such cases of abortions never happen", which mirrors anti-gunner claims that "assault weapons" have never been used for self-defense. Every person has the right to self defense so I can understand abortion as a part of that principle in the cases of rape and danger to the mother. Of course, if we are going to execute the rapist's spawn under that principle, the rapist should be right up on the chopping block and forfeit his life too. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 2:00:29 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every person has the right to self defense so I can understand abortion as a part of that principle in the cases of rape and danger to the mother. Of course, if we are going to execute the rapist's spawn under that principle, the rapist should be right up on the chopping block and forfeit his life too. Forcible rape should carry the mandatory death penalty. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 2:07:44 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Forcible rape should carry the mandatory death penalty. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Every person has the right to self defense so I can understand abortion as a part of that principle in the cases of rape and danger to the mother. Of course, if we are going to execute the rapist's spawn under that principle, the rapist should be right up on the chopping block and forfeit his life too. Forcible rape should carry the mandatory death penalty. This. And I'd be fine with making the executions public. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 2:25:59 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So is abortion wrong in all cases? If a 13 year old girl was abducted, raped, and later rescued, should she be forced to give birth to the pedo's baby? What if the mother will die in childbirth? Should it be banned in all cases? I know that someine will say "such cases of abortions never happen", which mirrors anti-gunner claims that "assault weapons" have never been used for self-defense. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What ever happened to Men? It's sad as to the number of adult males in this thread who believe it is OK to take an innocent life. Abortion is barbaric plain and simple, you truly have to be warped to see it another way. Some apparently are fine with it because it's legal but many legal atrocities have been done; it does not make them right. The problem is not with the innocent life, the problem is that we no longer have Men but boys in adult bodies. Where are the Real Men, the ones who understand that it is wrong to take an innocent life? Have so many truly fallen so far as to believe that abortion is OK. So is abortion wrong in all cases? If a 13 year old girl was abducted, raped, and later rescued, should she be forced to give birth to the pedo's baby? What if the mother will die in childbirth? Should it be banned in all cases? I know that someine will say "such cases of abortions never happen", which mirrors anti-gunner claims that "assault weapons" have never been used for self-defense. Hardly. We can cite when a semi-auto is used in self-defense. Police reports, witnesses, etc. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 5:04:28 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The morning after pill prevents conception. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Out of curiosity, how do people feel about the morning after pill? If arguing that life begins at conception, the definition of murder would apply here as well. That is one method of prevention. It also prevent fertilized eggs from attaching to the uterus. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 6:10:53 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But it is rare. Exceptionally so. It's simply not a blanket moral justification for abortion-on-demand without cause. "Oh, but what if she was raped?" Okay, show me the police report. I want the rapist caught and tried. "Oh, but what if the mother is going to die?" One, that's both exceptionally rare and not easily predicted, and two, okay, well then any OB should have no problem performing the required procedure(s) to save their patient. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that no doctor worth their salt is going to stand around and watch an otherwise healthy patient die a preventable death because of any law. Regardless, I'd rather focus on things that are actually widespread problems, instead of relying on pet hypotheticals dreamed up by people who simply want to justify killing babies. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So is abortion wrong in all cases? If a 13 year old girl was abducted, raped, and later rescued, should she be forced to give birth to the pedo's baby? What if the mother will die in childbirth? Should it be banned in all cases? I know that someine will say "such cases of abortions never happen"... But it is rare. Exceptionally so. It's simply not a blanket moral justification for abortion-on-demand without cause. "Oh, but what if she was raped?" Okay, show me the police report. I want the rapist caught and tried. "Oh, but what if the mother is going to die?" One, that's both exceptionally rare and not easily predicted, and two, okay, well then any OB should have no problem performing the required procedure(s) to save their patient. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that no doctor worth their salt is going to stand around and watch an otherwise healthy patient die a preventable death because of any law. Regardless, I'd rather focus on things that are actually widespread problems, instead of relying on pet hypotheticals dreamed up by people who simply want to justify killing babies. he just wants to keep killing the little black babies, so he will make up wild hypotheticals |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 6:25:24 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What ever happened to Men? It's sad as to the number of adult males in this thread who believe it is OK to take an innocent life. Abortion is barbaric plain and simple, you truly have to be warped to see it another way. Some apparently are fine with it because it's legal but many legal atrocities have been done; it does not make them right. The problem is not with the innocent life, the problem is that we no longer have Men but boys in adult bodies. Where are the Real Men, the ones who understand that it is wrong to take an innocent life? Have so many truly fallen so far as to believe that abortion is OK. for that matter, what ever happened to personal responsibility? no one seems to have it, .gov apparently should pay for birth control devices and prescriptions, .gov apparently should pay for the abortions (read that government sponsored Planned Parenthood), Hell, if the kid lives apparently people aren't even responsible to feed, cloth, and house them either........let's return to personal responsibility. We cannot diminish the value of one category of human life — the unborn — without diminishing the value of all human life. RONALD REAGAN, Abortion and the Conscience of the Nation |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 6:32:14 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
for that matter, what ever happened to personal responsibility? no one seems to have it, .gov apparently should pay for birth control devices and prescriptions, .gov apparently should pay for the abortions (read that government sponsored Planned Parenthood), Hell, if the kid lives apparently people aren't even responsible to feed, cloth, and house them either........let's return to personal responsibility. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What ever happened to Men? It's sad as to the number of adult males in this thread who believe it is OK to take an innocent life. Abortion is barbaric plain and simple, you truly have to be warped to see it another way. Some apparently are fine with it because it's legal but many legal atrocities have been done; it does not make them right. The problem is not with the innocent life, the problem is that we no longer have Men but boys in adult bodies. Where are the Real Men, the ones who understand that it is wrong to take an innocent life? Have so many truly fallen so far as to believe that abortion is OK. for that matter, what ever happened to personal responsibility? no one seems to have it, .gov apparently should pay for birth control devices and prescriptions, .gov apparently should pay for the abortions (read that government sponsored Planned Parenthood), Hell, if the kid lives apparently people aren't even responsible to feed, cloth, and house them either........let's return to personal responsibility. That's one hell of a thing to ask out of any American that lives in the burbs or urban areas. I'm not saying it's right, but our culture, probably partially due to frivolous lawsuits and successful "not mentally competent to stand trial" rulings, has absolutely mastered the idea of "its not my responsibility." |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 6:44:00 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's one hell of a thing to ask out of any American that lives in the burbs or urban areas. I'm not saying it's right, but our culture, probably partially due to frivolous lawsuits and successful "not mentally competent to stand trial" rulings, has absolutely mastered the idea of "its not my responsibility." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What ever happened to Men? It's sad as to the number of adult males in this thread who believe it is OK to take an innocent life. Abortion is barbaric plain and simple, you truly have to be warped to see it another way. Some apparently are fine with it because it's legal but many legal atrocities have been done; it does not make them right. The problem is not with the innocent life, the problem is that we no longer have Men but boys in adult bodies. Where are the Real Men, the ones who understand that it is wrong to take an innocent life? Have so many truly fallen so far as to believe that abortion is OK. for that matter, what ever happened to personal responsibility? no one seems to have it, .gov apparently should pay for birth control devices and prescriptions, .gov apparently should pay for the abortions (read that government sponsored Planned Parenthood), Hell, if the kid lives apparently people aren't even responsible to feed, cloth, and house them either........let's return to personal responsibility. That's one hell of a thing to ask out of any American that lives in the burbs or urban areas. I'm not saying it's right, but our culture, probably partially due to frivolous lawsuits and successful "not mentally competent to stand trial" rulings, has absolutely mastered the idea of "its not my responsibility." possibly due to frivolous lawsuits, but definitely due to our progressive government actively recruiting, subsidizing, enlisting, promoting, citizens dependence upon it and enslavement to it. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 6:50:25 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you oppose abortion, because of "murdering babies"--then you can't whine too much about welfare. More abortions = less welfare. If you don't feed them they won't breed. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 6:50:54 PM EST
[#37]
In unrelated news, coat hanger sales have risen 75 percent.
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Posted: 2/25/2016 7:30:28 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, there is more to it than maintaining admitting privileges, but let's look at those. To have hospital privileges one typically has to take call--this is, as you can imagine, a rather major lifestyle and time issue. Part of taking call is taking call on all comers--you can't refuse a consult even if you know that it's a charity case and you'll never be paid. So you end up spending more time working but usually don't get reimbursed for those extra hours working. It's price of doing business to keep your privileges. You also have to deal with hospital bureaucracy and that is a big unreimbursed time sink as well. Supervision. If you have a PA or nurse doing procedures the "supervising physician" has to be on site and readily available. I could make a lot more money if I could staff my satellite offices with nurse practitioners or PAs to do procedures all day long and then just sign off on paper as the "supervising physician." I can't do that. Every clinic has to have a physician present. This increases staffing costs. Physical plant--to do invasive procedures everybody else has to meet a myriad of OSHA, EPA, building codes, patient and employee safety codes, that would boggle your mind. All of this adds cost to the overhead. Abortion clinics were great money makers--since they were exempt from many of the above regulations they could have several clinics that did procedures all day long without the overhead costs that other clinics that do procedures of similar invasiveness and this provided a lot of easy revenue. When the same rules are applied to them, revenue goes down, costs and headaches go up, and thus they are not the cash cows they were so individuals and groups may stop running them--that's their fiscal choice, certainly, but it kind of belies the altruistic excuses you hear from many proponents of said clinics. They could easily continue to run every single one of those clinics--they just won't be as profitable. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The clinic I'm referring to is the black dot in MT that closed due to what they call hostile pressure in the article. I am actually curious about the rest of what you're saying. Why wouldn't the practicing physicians want to maintain admitting standards? What's involved and what would be the downside to complying with those standards? Well, there is more to it than maintaining admitting privileges, but let's look at those. To have hospital privileges one typically has to take call--this is, as you can imagine, a rather major lifestyle and time issue. Part of taking call is taking call on all comers--you can't refuse a consult even if you know that it's a charity case and you'll never be paid. So you end up spending more time working but usually don't get reimbursed for those extra hours working. It's price of doing business to keep your privileges. You also have to deal with hospital bureaucracy and that is a big unreimbursed time sink as well. Supervision. If you have a PA or nurse doing procedures the "supervising physician" has to be on site and readily available. I could make a lot more money if I could staff my satellite offices with nurse practitioners or PAs to do procedures all day long and then just sign off on paper as the "supervising physician." I can't do that. Every clinic has to have a physician present. This increases staffing costs. Physical plant--to do invasive procedures everybody else has to meet a myriad of OSHA, EPA, building codes, patient and employee safety codes, that would boggle your mind. All of this adds cost to the overhead. Abortion clinics were great money makers--since they were exempt from many of the above regulations they could have several clinics that did procedures all day long without the overhead costs that other clinics that do procedures of similar invasiveness and this provided a lot of easy revenue. When the same rules are applied to them, revenue goes down, costs and headaches go up, and thus they are not the cash cows they were so individuals and groups may stop running them--that's their fiscal choice, certainly, but it kind of belies the altruistic excuses you hear from many proponents of said clinics. They could easily continue to run every single one of those clinics--they just won't be as profitable. So basically $$ > patient safety is why in a nutshell. I consider myself educated. If medically necessary (not sure how often that actually is) or in cases where there's been a crime, I'm sure the volume of those cases could easily be performed in a local hospital. So the clinics are no great loss then. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 8:03:31 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So basically $$ > patient safety is why in a nutshell. I consider myself educated. If medically necessary (not sure how often that actually is) or in cases where there's been a crime, I'm sure the volume of those cases could easily be performed in a local hospital. So the clinics are no great loss then. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The clinic I'm referring to is the black dot in MT that closed due to what they call hostile pressure in the article. I am actually curious about the rest of what you're saying. Why wouldn't the practicing physicians want to maintain admitting standards? What's involved and what would be the downside to complying with those standards? Well, there is more to it than maintaining admitting privileges, but let's look at those. To have hospital privileges one typically has to take call--this is, as you can imagine, a rather major lifestyle and time issue. Part of taking call is taking call on all comers--you can't refuse a consult even if you know that it's a charity case and you'll never be paid. So you end up spending more time working but usually don't get reimbursed for those extra hours working. It's price of doing business to keep your privileges. You also have to deal with hospital bureaucracy and that is a big unreimbursed time sink as well. Supervision. If you have a PA or nurse doing procedures the "supervising physician" has to be on site and readily available. I could make a lot more money if I could staff my satellite offices with nurse practitioners or PAs to do procedures all day long and then just sign off on paper as the "supervising physician." I can't do that. Every clinic has to have a physician present. This increases staffing costs. Physical plant--to do invasive procedures everybody else has to meet a myriad of OSHA, EPA, building codes, patient and employee safety codes, that would boggle your mind. All of this adds cost to the overhead. Abortion clinics were great money makers--since they were exempt from many of the above regulations they could have several clinics that did procedures all day long without the overhead costs that other clinics that do procedures of similar invasiveness and this provided a lot of easy revenue. When the same rules are applied to them, revenue goes down, costs and headaches go up, and thus they are not the cash cows they were so individuals and groups may stop running them--that's their fiscal choice, certainly, but it kind of belies the altruistic excuses you hear from many proponents of said clinics. They could easily continue to run every single one of those clinics--they just won't be as profitable. So basically $$ > patient safety is why in a nutshell. I consider myself educated. If medically necessary (not sure how often that actually is) or in cases where there's been a crime, I'm sure the volume of those cases could easily be performed in a local hospital. So the clinics are no great loss then. Abortion clinics have always been about money. The entire planned parenthood criminal enterprise is about money. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 9:02:58 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A church youth broke into the local clinic after hours and did enough property damage that repair was not financially viable for the practice. That's kind of "forced out of business'. I do feel that abortion is not a moral act under most circumstances, but I'm not sure I can agree with backwards methods to close the clinics vs direct legislation by the will of the people. That smells like the methods of the other side. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you oppose abortion, because of "murdering babies"--then you can't whine too much about welfare. More abortions = less welfare. That's illogical. Financial constraints have never been justification for taking a human life. Preventing one crime does not limit one from complaining about another. You might as well say that if you make theft illegal you can't complain about the welfare the thieves need if they don't have your cash. Besides, they are not being "forced out of business," there is a combination of laws that limit public funding for this private medical procedure and regulations that make abortion clinics rise to the same regulations and standards of any other medical clinic that provides treatments of the same level of invasiveness. If a clinic does not want too meet the same medical standards that every one else has to, then tough. A church youth broke into the local clinic after hours and did enough property damage that repair was not financially viable for the practice. That's kind of "forced out of business'. I do feel that abortion is not a moral act under most circumstances, but I'm not sure I can agree with backwards methods to close the clinics vs direct legislation by the will of the people. That smells like the methods of the other side. Direct legislation by the will of the people has been impossible since 1973. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 9:03:37 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yay! We've taken a perfectly safe medical procedure that has been all but perfected in the 40 years it's been in common practice and pushed it BACK into alleys and dark apartments where MORE people will die and be incarcerated as a result. Go big .gov, you're my hero! You got some stats for coathanger abortions? |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 10:08:32 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Abortion clinics have always been about money. The entire planned parenthood criminal enterprise is about money. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The clinic I'm referring to is the black dot in MT that closed due to what they call hostile pressure in the article. I am actually curious about the rest of what you're saying. Why wouldn't the practicing physicians want to maintain admitting standards? What's involved and what would be the downside to complying with those standards? Well, there is more to it than maintaining admitting privileges, but let's look at those. To have hospital privileges one typically has to take call--this is, as you can imagine, a rather major lifestyle and time issue. Part of taking call is taking call on all comers--you can't refuse a consult even if you know that it's a charity case and you'll never be paid. So you end up spending more time working but usually don't get reimbursed for those extra hours working. It's price of doing business to keep your privileges. You also have to deal with hospital bureaucracy and that is a big unreimbursed time sink as well. Supervision. If you have a PA or nurse doing procedures the "supervising physician" has to be on site and readily available. I could make a lot more money if I could staff my satellite offices with nurse practitioners or PAs to do procedures all day long and then just sign off on paper as the "supervising physician." I can't do that. Every clinic has to have a physician present. This increases staffing costs. Physical plant--to do invasive procedures everybody else has to meet a myriad of OSHA, EPA, building codes, patient and employee safety codes, that would boggle your mind. All of this adds cost to the overhead. Abortion clinics were great money makers--since they were exempt from many of the above regulations they could have several clinics that did procedures all day long without the overhead costs that other clinics that do procedures of similar invasiveness and this provided a lot of easy revenue. When the same rules are applied to them, revenue goes down, costs and headaches go up, and thus they are not the cash cows they were so individuals and groups may stop running them--that's their fiscal choice, certainly, but it kind of belies the altruistic excuses you hear from many proponents of said clinics. They could easily continue to run every single one of those clinics--they just won't be as profitable. So basically $$ > patient safety is why in a nutshell. I consider myself educated. If medically necessary (not sure how often that actually is) or in cases where there's been a crime, I'm sure the volume of those cases could easily be performed in a local hospital. So the clinics are no great loss then. Abortion clinics have always been about money. The entire planned parenthood criminal enterprise is about money. Is money bad? Has GD gone commie just because of abortion? |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 10:40:40 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is money bad? Has GD gone commie just because of abortion? Money for killing children? Yes, that's bad in my world. I can't speak for the fantasy world you live in. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 10:43:27 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good. this, hope they rot in hell |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 10:45:18 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Money for killing children? Yes, that's bad in my world. I can't speak for the fantasy world you live in. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Is money bad? Has GD gone commie just because of abortion? Money for killing children? Yes, that's bad in my world. I can't speak for the fantasy world you live in. I live in a fantasy world where no matter what, idiots are going to still fuck, and I'm going to pay for it one way or the other. I'd rather pay for it once than for 18 years+. |
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Posted: 2/26/2016 2:06:12 AM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I live in a fantasy world where no matter what, idiots are going to still fuck, and I'm going to pay for it one way or the other. I'd rather pay for it once than for 18 years+. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Is money bad? Has GD gone commie just because of abortion? Money for killing children? Yes, that's bad in my world. I can't speak for the fantasy world you live in. I live in a fantasy world where no matter what, idiots are going to still fuck, and I'm going to pay for it one way or the other. I'd rather pay for it once than for 18 years+. I'd rather they cut welfare, while we're talking about fantasy worlds -- but killing children with my money is abhorrent. |
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Posted: 2/26/2016 2:43:24 AM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Abortions do not ultimately reduce birth rates. They only change the timing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If you oppose abortion, because of "murdering babies"--then you can't whine too much about welfare. More abortions = less welfare. Abortions do not ultimately reduce birth rates. They only change the timing. Could be...but in any case Im of the mind that one shouldn't breed to begin with unless they are capable and ready of raising a child. |
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Posted: 2/26/2016 2:28:11 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
She could....you know, not have sex at 17. But that's too hard. No need to kill an unborn child. No need to deal with the guilt associated with that. No need to struggle as a single parent. Heck, I don't know. Get married? Logic and decency are lost concepts Not everyone shares your definition of decency. |
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Posted: 2/26/2016 2:44:39 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not everyone shares your definition of decency. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
She could....you know, not have sex at 17. But that's too hard. No need to kill an unborn child. No need to deal with the guilt associated with that. No need to struggle as a single parent. Heck, I don't know. Get married? Logic and decency are lost concepts Not everyone shares your definition of decency. is there more than one or are words living breathing things? up for continuous interpretation? de·cen·cy ['des?nse] NOUN behavior that conforms to accepted standards of morality or respectability: "she had the decency to come and confess" synonyms: propriety · decorum · good taste · respectability · dignity · correctness · good form · etiquette · morality · virtue · modesty · delicacy · courtesy · politeness · good manners · civility · respect · consideration · thoughtfulness · tact · diplomacy Powered by Oxford Dictionaries |
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Posted: 2/26/2016 3:16:34 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
is there more than one or are words living breathing things? up for continuous interpretation? de·cen·cy Objective morality is a lie of the patriarchy. Or something. |
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