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What is the lawyer going to tell you RFN on scene that you don't already know?

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Immediate access to legal counsel doesn't matter. Invoking your 6th Amendment right brings the interrogation to a close, which is goal number one. After that you're just lounging around, waiting for counsel to show up, at which point he will ask you if you have said anything. You will say no, I haven't, and he will thank you. Then you proceed from there.

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expecting legal counsel to be available 24/7 is not a realistic scenario.

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That's Duane's advice for post-arrest. Pre-arrest he says to say you'll be happy to answer all their questions as long as you get them in writing.

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I'll do a little follow up here.  Most folks go thru life and never have a traumatic incident.  They don't think about it.  They have a car accident or get in a fight and the urge to yammer about the biggest incident in their lives is unstoppable.  So they say too much, or stupid stuff.

Over the years I saw freshly caught repeat offenders give voluntarily statements that put them in prison.  Police interrogators are very, very good.

Many of the cops I knew who had use of force incidents, not just shootings, were masterful during the incident.  Afterwards the adrenaline kicks in and they babble.  You, the shooters of Arfcom may be able to control yourselves after a shooting.  I know my limitations and will shut up. YMMV.

As an FTO, I would tell new recruits first day before leaving the parking lot that if involved in a shooting, shut up.  I'm not your friend, the Sgt is not your friend, the detective is really not your friend.  Your attorney is your friend.

Again, do as you like.  You may have a mind that allows you more self control.  For me, I'll take the ride downtown in absolute fucking silence.  The criminal justice system frightens me more than divorce lawyers and democrats put together.  It is a manufactured hell.

All this being said, my final advice is to avoid lethal confrontations or situations as much as possible.  You cannot imagine the clusterfuck that awaits.

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Obsessively practicing how you plan to talk to the police after a shooting still seems creepy to me.

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When taken to the levels of obsession you've shown in this thread, yup. Still creepy.

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Just curious - in your state if someone is standing stationary 50 yards away, brandishing a knife and screaming "I'm going to kill you!", is it legal for you to shoot them?

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Sure. Brandishing a bayonet attached to a rifle would definitely justify the use of lethal force, even at 50 yards.

Any other bizarre or ridiculous hypothetical scenarios you want to throw out there?



(Hint: That's a rhetorical question. )

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I'll do a little follow up here.  Most folks go thru life and never have a traumatic incident.  They don't think about it.  They have a car accident or get in a fight and the urge to yammer about the biggest incident in their lives is unstoppable.  So they say too much, or stupid stuff.

Over the years I saw freshly caught repeat offenders give voluntarily statements that put them in prison.  Police interrogators are very, very good.

Many of the cops I knew who had use of force incidents, not just shootings, were masterful during the incident.  Afterwards the adrenaline kicks in and they babble.  You, the shooters of Arfcom may be able to control yourselves after a shooting.  I know my limitations and will shut up. YMMV.

As an FTO, I would tell new recruits first day before leaving the parking lot that if involved in a shooting, shut up.  I'm not your friend, the Sgt is not your friend, the detective is really not your friend.  Your attorney is your friend.

Again, do as you like.  You may have a mind that allows you more self control.  For me, I'll take the ride downtown in absolute fucking silence.  The criminal justice system frightens me more than divorce lawyers and democrats put together.  It is a manufactured hell.

All this being said, my final advice is to avoid lethal confrontations or situations as much as possible.  You cannot imagine the clusterfuck that awaits.

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Well said.

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Received this email reply from Ayoob today:

" Hi Doc,

"Sorry for the late response. Just got home from 5 weeks on the road: two shooting trials and 4 classes.  Getting caught up now.

Our most recent case such as you describe came in through ACLDN.  The Network attorney killed it in hearing and our guy is now free and won't be charged.

After the hearing, the lead investigator came up to him in the courthouse hall and told him, "You know, if you had just told me then what you testified to today, I never would have even arrested you."

It still amazes me that people who see reality sufficiently to carry a gun somehow think they're going to kill a human being, tell the police "I'm not saying anything to you," and expect the cop to say "Oh, OK, never mind."

Sorry that you have to deal with the question, as I do.

Best,
Mas"

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I'm not seeing the case name where a guy shut the fuck up and it got him convicted.

Was that appended as an attachment or something? Maybe a different email you forgot to copy and paste?

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I was a Cop. I will never talk to the Cops without an Atty.

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Surely there's one single instance. Just one.

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Name one, and I'll drop it forever, and give you an apology.

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After the hearing, the lead investigator came up to him in the courthouse hall and told him, "You know, if you had just told me then what you testified to today, I never would have even arrested you."

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Not everyone “has a lawyer”. If you’re on a scene and need one better call Saul?  Seriously most people wouldn’t know where to start finding a good lawyer quickly

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Hey y'all. It's shut the fuck up Thursday, reminding you to shut the fuck up when the police ask you questions.

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Depends on if you are in one of the communist anti-gun states/cities the shooting occurred in. If it is in one of the commie locations, say NOTHING without a lawyer. That is your RIGHT under the Constitution. Whatever statement you think might be benign or won't infer that you are guilty of something can be twisted by the police, communist anti-gun prosecution to make you look guilty. Certainly not all police are tools of the corrupt, communist prosecutors, but enough are to make it extremely risky to say anything without YOUR lawyer present.

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In a situation where one has had to use deadly force to defend themselves (shot at someone who was attacking you)....

When the first PATROL officers arrive in response to the 911 call what kind of a fool would refuse to talk to them if:

1. the perp had tossed their weapon but you know exactly where it's located

2. you are certain who else witnessed the attack on you

3. you know the exact location of security cameras that have recorded the attack on you

4. the perp flees and you have a description of the vehicle, the license number, and the direction in which it left

5. you have a description of the perp

6. you have evidence (like a phone video) that can prove to the first arriving officers that you were the victim and acted in self defense

Really?  You're going to clam up and say nothing until you consult with an attorney?

There are TWO times when you typically "speak with law enforcement".

The first is "first on the scene patrol officers".  Know what to say and talk to them.

The second is the "investigation officers", and that's the time to lawyer up.

Why is this fundamental concept so difficult for people to understand?

Edited by request:

Andrew Branca, "The Law of Self Defense"

Chapter 9

"Tell the responding officers exactly what you told 911:
1. Your name
2. Your location
3. Three specific sentences about what happened and why:
a. I was attacked
b. I was in fear for my life (my family, etc).
c. I had to defend myself.

4. Identify exculpatory evidence and witnesses.

Remember, the jury is only going to arrive at their verdict based on the evidence.  If a piece of evidence goes missing, it does not exist for legal purposes. It becomes speculation.

Good cases of self defense do not suffer from too much evidence.  The suffer from too little evidence.  More evidence is good for the good guys.

So what kind of evidence should you make when you interact with responding officers?

Evidence that will help your narrative.  What the law refers to as exculpatory evidence.  And for the most part exculpatory evidence comes on the form of objects and witnesses.  And you need exculpatory evidence secured.  If it isn't, part of your story becomes speculation, which doesn't exist for legal purposes.

If a thug attacks you with a knife, and as you shoot him that knife goes flying into a bush, tell the responding officers to go look in that bush.  If you don't and the knife isn't recovered, it doesn't exist for legal purposes.  Given the knife justifies your actions, failing to recover it would be devastating to your legal defense.

If all you say is "I want my lawyer" you let that exculpatory evidence disappear. I can assure you that your lawyer is not going to think you are a legal genius for following the advice of a Youtube video to "never talk to the police".

Massad Ayoob
"Conventional wisdom — and many a concealed-carry instructor — says that you should clam up when police arrive at the scene and refuse to say anything without your attorney present, because “police are not your friends” in that situation.

Defensive shooting expert Massad Ayoob disagrees.

Massad Ayoob offers a five-point checklist of things to cover with the police instead of just clamming up:

Establish the active dynamic. This means letting the investigators know what the bad guy did to force you to use your firearm against him. This establishes you as the victim.
Reinforce that by stating you will testify against the bad guy — and Ayoob says the wording of that may be “a little bit tricky.” Don’t say “I’ll press charges,” because in some areas only prosecuting attorneys can press charges. Instead, say “I will testify against him/them.” This strengthens your position as victim.
Point out the evidence. Preserve it if possible; which can be difficult when medical and other personnel are running around disturbing the scene.
Point out the witnesses. I know from experience that witnesses don’t always get interviewed or even have a statement taken at the scene; do your best to make it easy for officers, so the witnesses can back up your story.
Shut up. Tell the officer he or she can expect your full cooperation after you’ve spoken with an attorney."

Also, "if you were attacked by multiple bad guys and one or more of them get away — and you say nothing to the police so they don’t know that 1) you were facing multiple threats when you used your firearm for self defense and 2) there are some bad guys at large — that doesn’t help your case in the least."

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Do you have your lawyers personal cell number, that he will 100% answer at all times of the day and night?  Have you already placed a retainer?  Have you talked to your attorney about what his response is going to be to your SD shooting?

Because if the answer to any of those questions is "No" then the crime scene is going to be cleared up and released before you ever even talk to your attorney.  Meaning that weapon no longer exists.