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Posted: 2/14/2021 5:55:11 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It would be nice if there was a hybrid that was SP artillery but wasn't a huge tracked vehicle like the M109. Maybe an M777 mounted on a flatbed  I remember the days when we were trying to get the Crusader which was a lot heavier than 109. Something like 40 tons. We have looked at some of the different systems used by other countries, such as truck mounted systems. It would be nice to have something motorized, but with the way the acquisition process works probably wont get anything like it. We were barely able to the PIM upgrades for the 109s, much less getting a new mechanized system developed and fielded. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 6:40:56 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Artillery has been neglected. Foreign militaries are a generation or two past us in some cases. What country would be a good lead to follow? |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 6:45:37 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What country would be a good lead to follow? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Artillery has been neglected. Foreign militaries are a generation or two past us in some cases. What country would be a good lead to follow? South africa used to have excellent towed arty. Not sure where they still stack up now. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 6:50:29 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Idk but I this my favorite marine artillery video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdO_0twP_CUThat was badass. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 6:52:37 PM EST
[#5]
I used to know someone who worked on a crew manning an 8" gun, the M110 howitzer. One time they were doing fireing drills one of the guys helping load the shell somehow managed to have it drop on the ground rather than load into the breach. Out of terror he cringed and looked away. The rest of the gun crew alleged chased the guy and literally beat him within an inch of his life.
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Posted: 2/14/2021 7:42:37 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I remember the days when we were trying to get the Crusader which was a lot heavier than 109. Something like 40 tons. We have looked at some of the different systems used by other countries, such as truck mounted systems. It would be nice to have something motorized, but with the way the acquisition process works probably wont get anything like it. We were barely able to the PIM upgrades for the 109s, much less getting a new mechanized system developed and fielded. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It would be nice if there was a hybrid that was SP artillery but wasn't a huge tracked vehicle like the M109. Maybe an M777 mounted on a flatbed I remember the days when we were trying to get the Crusader which was a lot heavier than 109. Something like 40 tons. We have looked at some of the different systems used by other countries, such as truck mounted systems. It would be nice to have something motorized, but with the way the acquisition process works probably wont get anything like it. We were barely able to the PIM upgrades for the 109s, much less getting a new mechanized system developed and fielded. Crusader and it's support vehicle were 110 tons total which put it out of air lifts. Think they were looking to shave 20 tons from each, but it was cancelled before that happened. The liquid propellant was the best thing of Crusader, but they never could get it to work consistently. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 7:47:01 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What country would be a good lead to follow? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Artillery has been neglected. Foreign militaries are a generation or two past us in some cases. What country would be a good lead to follow? Sweden/Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Artillery_System South Africa in the freaking 80s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G6_howitzer France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAESAR_self-propelled_howitzer |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 7:47:37 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Crusader and it's support vehicle were 110 tons total which put it out of air lifts. Think they were looking to shave 20 tons from each, but it was cancelled before that happened. The liquid propellant was the best thing of Crusader, but they never could get it to work consistently. I was under the impression that MACS charges were a consequence of the crusader project. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 7:47:37 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to know someone who worked on a crew manning an 8" gun, the M110 howitzer. One time they were doing fireing drills one of the guys helping load the shell somehow managed to have it drop on the ground rather than load into the breach. Out of terror he cringed and looked away. The rest of the gun crew alleged chased the guy and literally beat him within an inch of his life. 200lb projectiles tend to get loose :) |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 7:50:02 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was under the impression that MACS charges were a consequence of the crusader project. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Crusader and it's support vehicle were 110 tons total which put it out of air lifts. Think they were looking to shave 20 tons from each, but it was cancelled before that happened. The liquid propellant was the best thing of Crusader, but they never could get it to work consistently. I was under the impression that MACS charges were a consequence of the crusader project. I believe they were, but they were testing a full liquid propellant in the Crusader line if I remember correctly. That piece they never could get to work quite right. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 10:15:48 PM EST
[#11]
Does crewing arty f your hearing as much as it seems like it would?
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Posted: 2/14/2021 10:30:25 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Crusader and it's support vehicle were 110 tons total which put it out of air lifts. Think they were looking to shave 20 tons from each, but it was cancelled before that happened. The liquid propellant was the best thing of Crusader, but they never could get it to work consistently. Yeah the 40 tons number was the objective to get it down to, using ceramic armor or something (been along time since those days). Even at that number we always laughed at how heavy they were going to go with it. I was a Battery Commander in 3-2 ID BDE at Lewis when we were the first to transition to Strykers. We had to turn our Paladins in and the only thing they could field us with were 198s. We kept crying to Sill to start developing a wheeled system back in 2000 but Sill was all about Crusader and wouldn't let it go. Yeah going from the Paladin to the Pig wasn't a step in the right direction but it was all they had. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 11:27:32 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does crewing arty f your hearing as much as it seems like it would? That's another good question, I watch video and these guys don't have ear pro, wtf! I worked with a marine who did artillery briefly, he didn't seem to have hearing issues ?? |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 11:32:27 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sweden/Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Artillery_System South Africa in the freaking 80s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G6_howitzer France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAESAR_self-propelled_howitzer Seems like a good gap between self propelled track systems and towed, wonder why we don't experiment with this. Even India is rocking some cool shit ??  155mm Field Howitzer 77B: The Bofors Gun |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 11:34:01 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's another good question, I watch video and these guys don't have ear pro, wtf! I worked with a marine who did artillery briefly, he didn't seem to have hearing issues ?? My grandfather lost his hearing working around planes all day every day for years. But that's pretty much constant. I guess with artillery there's only a boom every now and then and you generally know when it is going to come. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 11:34:28 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah the 40 tons number was the objective to get it down to, using ceramic armor or something (been along time since those days). Even at that number we always laughed at how heavy they were going to go with it. I was a Battery Commander in 3-2 ID BDE at Lewis when we were the first to transition to Strykers. We had to turn our Paladins in and the only thing they could field us with were 198s. We kept crying to Sill to start developing a wheeled system back in 2000 but Sill was all about Crusader and wouldn't let it go. Yeah going from the Paladin to the Pig wasn't a step in the right direction but it was all they had. Denel put a long range 105 on a Stryker chassis. That would have been awesome. The 777 seems like it was a stopgap that... just kept going. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 11:48:18 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My grandfather lost his hearing working around planes all day every day for years. But that's pretty much constant. I guess with artillery there's only a boom every now and then and you generally know when it is going to come. I have significant hearing loss from my artillery years. I was young and bulletproof. The issued ear plugs (when I wore them) sucked. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 11:50:19 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have significant hearing loss from my artillery years. I was young and bulletproof. The issued ear plugs (when I wore them) sucked. Ear plugs are for pussies, plus you can't hear shit. Were you an 0811/13b?
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Posted: 2/14/2021 11:50:49 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's another good question, I watch video and these guys don't have ear pro, wtf! I worked with a marine who did artillery briefly, he didn't seem to have hearing issues ?? My hearing was more damaged by sitting in diesel trucks for months at a time. As for arty I never caught any flak for wearing plugs and you usually have enough tiime to plug your ears but if you’re a section chief thats a diff situation. If you fuck up you goto jail. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 11:53:47 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ear plugs are for pussies, plus you can't hear shit. Were you an 0811/13b? 13B. M109's. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 8:07:14 AM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah the 40 tons number was the objective to get it down to, using ceramic armor or something (been along time since those days). Even at that number we always laughed at how heavy they were going to go with it. I was a Battery Commander in 3-2 ID BDE at Lewis when we were the first to transition to Strykers. We had to turn our Paladins in and the only thing they could field us with were 198s. We kept crying to Sill to start developing a wheeled system back in 2000 but Sill was all about Crusader and wouldn't let it go. Yeah going from the Paladin to the Pig wasn't a step in the right direction but it was all they had. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Crusader and it's support vehicle were 110 tons total which put it out of air lifts. Think they were looking to shave 20 tons from each, but it was cancelled before that happened. The liquid propellant was the best thing of Crusader, but they never could get it to work consistently. Yeah the 40 tons number was the objective to get it down to, using ceramic armor or something (been along time since those days). Even at that number we always laughed at how heavy they were going to go with it. I was a Battery Commander in 3-2 ID BDE at Lewis when we were the first to transition to Strykers. We had to turn our Paladins in and the only thing they could field us with were 198s. We kept crying to Sill to start developing a wheeled system back in 2000 but Sill was all about Crusader and wouldn't let it go. Yeah going from the Paladin to the Pig wasn't a step in the right direction but it was all they had. The whole FCS concept was a bit retarded IMHO. Don't know why they thought a common chassis was the way to go. What class were you at FAOBC? |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 8:08:32 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does crewing arty f your hearing as much as it seems like it would? They have a saying in the artillery. Don't care what music you play, just play it LOUD! |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 8:11:33 AM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does crewing arty f your hearing as much as it seems like it would?  |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 8:11:38 AM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Denel put a long range 105 on a Stryker chassis. That would have been awesome. The 777 seems like it was a stopgap that... just kept going. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yeah the 40 tons number was the objective to get it down to, using ceramic armor or something (been along time since those days). Even at that number we always laughed at how heavy they were going to go with it. I was a Battery Commander in 3-2 ID BDE at Lewis when we were the first to transition to Strykers. We had to turn our Paladins in and the only thing they could field us with were 198s. We kept crying to Sill to start developing a wheeled system back in 2000 but Sill was all about Crusader and wouldn't let it go. Yeah going from the Paladin to the Pig wasn't a step in the right direction but it was all they had. Denel put a long range 105 on a Stryker chassis. That would have been awesome. The 777 seems like it was a stopgap that... just kept going. This is what we should have had. 
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Posted: 2/15/2021 8:59:11 AM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does crewing arty f your hearing as much as it seems like it would? Hey Joe, were you in the artillery? Huh? HEY JOE, WERE YOU IN THE ARTILLERY? HUH? Hey Joe, were you... nevermind!
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Posted: 2/15/2021 9:18:53 AM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The whole FCS concept was a bit retarded IMHO. Don't know why they thought a common chassis was the way to go. What class were you at FAOBC? YG93 Started in Aug, don't remember class number. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 9:41:22 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: YG93 Started in Aug, don't remember class number. May of 95 here. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 9:48:31 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to know someone who worked on a crew manning an 8" gun, the M110 howitzer. One time they were doing fireing drills one of the guys helping load the shell somehow managed to have it drop on the ground rather than load into the breach. Out of terror he cringed and looked away. The rest of the gun crew alleged chased the guy and literally beat him within an inch of his life.
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Posted: 2/15/2021 9:51:01 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm calling BS. Dropping a round is not going to make the rest of the crew freak out. The way the fuses are made, it would be damn near impossible to drop one and have it detonate. What I was told. I cannot confirm the veracity and it was like30 years ago. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 9:53:16 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What I was told. I cannot confirm the veracity and it was like30 years ago. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm calling BS. Dropping a round is not going to make the rest of the crew freak out. The way the fuses are made, it would be damn near impossible to drop one and have it detonate. What I was told. I cannot confirm the veracity and it was like30 years ago.  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 9:54:07 AM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm calling BS. Dropping a round is not going to make the rest of the crew freak out. The way the fuses are made, it would be damn near impossible to drop one and have it detonate. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I used to know someone who worked on a crew manning an 8" gun, the M110 howitzer. One time they were doing fireing drills one of the guys helping load the shell somehow managed to have it drop on the ground rather than load into the breach. Out of terror he cringed and looked away. The rest of the gun crew alleged chased the guy and literally beat him within an inch of his life. Probably more beat the shit out of him for turning away in fear as that could get someone hurt. The 8inch gun bunnies were a different breed 
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Posted: 2/15/2021 9:55:30 AM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm calling BS. Dropping a round is not going to make the rest of the crew freak out. The way the fuses are made, it would be damn near impossible to drop one and have it detonate. I would be more pissed about having to pick it back up. Shit's heavy. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 9:58:01 AM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can someone explain the point of non motorized artillery in an age of renewed peer competition? Counter battery fire is going to destroy anything that can’t fire and move. I’m sure things like the 777 are great for non peer conflict. Thanks The thought of fighting a peer military is horrific. The casualties would be incredibly high. Let’s hope in never comes to that. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 10:02:10 AM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My grandfather lost his hearing working around planes all day every day for years. But that's pretty much constant. I guess with artillery there's only a boom every now and then and you generally know when it is going to come. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That's another good question, I watch video and these guys don't have ear pro, wtf! I worked with a marine who did artillery briefly, he didn't seem to have hearing issues ?? My grandfather lost his hearing working around planes all day every day for years. But that's pretty much constant. I guess with artillery there's only a boom every now and then and you generally know when it is going to come. My dad is still half deaf and he only did it part time for 6 years. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 10:02:33 AM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can someone explain the point of non motorized artillery in an age of renewed peer competition? Counter battery fire is going to destroy anything that can't fire and move. I'm sure things like the 777 are great for non peer conflict. Thanks |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 10:04:48 AM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Probably more beat the shit out of him for turning away in fear as that could get someone hurt. The 8inch gun bunnies were a different breed Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I used to know someone who worked on a crew manning an 8" gun, the M110 howitzer. One time they were doing fireing drills one of the guys helping load the shell somehow managed to have it drop on the ground rather than load into the breach. Out of terror he cringed and looked away. The rest of the gun crew alleged chased the guy and literally beat him within an inch of his life. Probably more beat the shit out of him for turning away in fear as that could get someone hurt. The 8inch gun bunnies were a different breed  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 10:05:14 AM EST
[#37]
I've deployed on both as part of Kilo 3/10 from 2005-2010. Chiefed a 777 during the Marjah when I was in Helmand 2009-2010. The one thing a 198 could do better is quickly transition to an out of azimuth fire mission. Just pump it up and rotate it on the baseplate, drop and scratch the spades in. The 777 rotates on one of its wheels, so it won't make a perfect circle in rotation and the cupped spaded make for a bit more digging. But that's what PFCs are for. The 777 also depended heavily on the scavenge system being properly charged. No split rings to worry about though. All-in-all, I enjoyed the 777 more.
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Posted: 2/15/2021 10:05:25 AM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It would be nice if there was a hybrid that was SP artillery but wasn't a huge tracked vehicle like the M109. Maybe an M777 mounted on a flatbed Funny you mention that. I read somewhere recently that the Army was looking at a few different foreign designs, including ARCHER AND CAESAR to replace to towed guns in Stryker Brigades. Who knows if that will go anywhere, that's not my area of expertise.  ARCHER Shoot and Scoot  CAESAR 155mm 8x8 wheeled self propelled howitzer Nexter Systems France French defense industry |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 10:36:05 AM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Funny you mention that. I read somewhere recently that the Army was looking at a few different foreign designs, including ARCHER AND CAESAR to replace to towed guns in Stryker Brigades. Who knows if that will go anywhere, that's not my area of expertise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8x8ITwd4Vg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_g3VSVFyisQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It would be nice if there was a hybrid that was SP artillery but wasn't a huge tracked vehicle like the M109. Maybe an M777 mounted on a flatbed Funny you mention that. I read somewhere recently that the Army was looking at a few different foreign designs, including ARCHER AND CAESAR to replace to towed guns in Stryker Brigades. Who knows if that will go anywhere, that's not my area of expertise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8x8ITwd4Vg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_g3VSVFyisThey are looking at some. Of those two, the Archer is the best choice IMHO, but I'm sure the Army will pick something totally jacked. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 10:37:35 AM EST
[#40]
This is what we should have had back in the 80/90s.
 G6 'RHINO' 155mm Self-propelled Howitzer | SOUTH AFRICAN ARTILLERY Lot of interesting wheeled artillery that I hadn't heard of.  BEST Self Propelled HOWITZER | TOP 10 WHEELED ARTILLERY |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 11:35:48 AM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was under the impression that the US military is a fervent believer in the power of tubed artillery to dominate a battlefield. Nothing says "I'm going to fuck your shit up" more than a battery of big guns and that the US Army and Marines were pretty damn serious about maintaining a powerful arty force. Not just numbers wise - the Norks have more tubes for example - but in both quality and number of tubes compared to the size of the force we were kicking ass. Has that changed? Go check out the Armenia vs. Turkey thread, or refer back to Ukraine vs. Russia videos. US Mil is also badly deficient in short range ADA, and those events have also shown that counter-battery comes in the form of not just arty or mortars, but now drone strikes or suicide drones. We aren't ready for that. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 11:57:18 AM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is what we should have had back in the 80/90s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_9fl7QWGQwLot of interesting wheeled artillery that I hadn't heard of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX3RWzBRuZEThose all look nice, but I don't think the Stryker has enough ass for any of them. I am assuming whatever they pick, it is going to need to be re-mounted on an Oshkosh HEMTT or similar chassis. It should be easy but the Army could fuck up a wet dream. Oh, and it's Dem administration time, so go to mandatory classes about trannies and stuff right now, you can play with your old scary guns later. 
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Posted: 2/15/2021 11:59:23 AM EST
[#43]
Can you tow a M777 with an M109?
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Posted: 2/15/2021 12:02:08 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Night and day difference. Complete upgrade of pretty much every part of the system, along with digitization of everything fire control. I since they were fielded I've never heard anybody I know who's been on both, ot who fielded them from a swap say that they wished they had their 98s back. And anything to make it lighter is a godsend, cause doing fucking crew drills on a 98 with 60% manning is a great way to shit a nut. I missed a drop trail command once, and thought I was gonna have to have someone dig a hole to find my spine before I could stand back up. +1 from another FA guy Cheers fellow redleg |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 12:08:07 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seems like a good gap between self propelled track systems and towed, wonder why we don't experiment with this. Even India is rocking some cool shit ?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaK1jFg8JBEQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sweden/Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Artillery_System South Africa in the freaking 80s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G6_howitzer France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAESAR_self-propelled_howitzer Seems like a good gap between self propelled track systems and towed, wonder why we don't experiment with this. Even India is rocking some cool shit ?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaK1jFg8JBEThey got those from us.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_scandal |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 12:15:43 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you tow a M777 with an M109? I believe the answer is yes. It does have a tow hook if I remember correctly. Don't know the towing capacity off the top of my head though. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 12:21:48 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those all look nice, but I don't think the Stryker has enough ass for any of them. I am assuming whatever they pick, it is going to need to be re-mounted on an Oshkosh HEMTT or similar chassis. It should be easy but the Army could fuck up a wet dream. Oh, and it's Dem administration time, so go to mandatory classes about trannies and stuff right now, you can play with your old scary guns later. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This is what we should have had back in the 80/90s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_9fl7QWGQwLot of interesting wheeled artillery that I hadn't heard of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX3RWzBRuZEThose all look nice, but I don't think the Stryker has enough ass for any of them. I am assuming whatever they pick, it is going to need to be re-mounted on an Oshkosh HEMTT or similar chassis. It should be easy but the Army could fuck up a wet dream. Oh, and it's Dem administration time, so go to mandatory classes about trannies and stuff right now, you can play with your old scary guns later. Well the last few Rep administrations (besides Trump) didn't really do the military many favors. Looks like they have tried both 120mm mortars and 105mm howitzers on the Stryker platform. https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/iav-sph.htm http://www.military-today.com/artillery/m1129_stryker_mortar.htm Archer may be what they go with. https://breakingdefense.com/2020/10/bae-offers-truck-mounted-howitzer-for-army-stryker-units/ |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 1:13:05 PM EST
[#48]
Boxer can fit a PZH2000 or similar turret module. Just saying.
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Posted: 2/15/2021 2:11:48 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Boxer can fit a PZH2000 or similar turret module. Just saying. Agreed, but it looks like it would flip over http://www.military-today.com/artillery/boxer_rch155.htm 
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Posted: 2/15/2021 2:45:18 PM EST
[#50]
777 but I may be biased.
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