I'm old school, I learned on steam gauges.
Today I build my airplanes all glass.
Personally I think you should know both because both will be around for a long long time.

The cockpit of my buddies steam gauge seven tenths scale S-51 project:


The cockpit of my glass RV-4 project which shows all the same information, with backup on airspeed, altitude, and mag heading:

First step is what do you want to fly? Would you be happy in an ultralight, glider, or powered parachute or the like? Or doest it have to be a real (as some people might call it) aircraft?

There is a real case for ultralights and gliders. It is what I would call a very pure flying experience. It's just you and the sky. In gliders you get to be a great stick and rudder pilot, there are five outfits in Ohio (I don't know where you're at). It also gives you challenges once you have your certificate. Try for XCs and the like. A lot of people get their SEL and then say "Now what?" and stop flying.

But if you want to fly a more conventional aircraft, look into Light Sport Aircraft. The restrictions are no night flying and you can only fly two seaters under 10K. The upshot is there is you get your certificate in a shorter amount of time and the plane are often cheaper.

If you want to get a bit more creative, you can look for a fractional ownership or flying club in your area. I think there is a share in the plane I had for sale for $1500. I think they are charging around $55 an hour wet.

THis route would require a bit of legwork, but can pay off by way of cheap rates and a flexible group. Check Trade-a-Plane or ask around at the FBO's of your local airports.

You can keep your costs down pretty well with any of those methods. And don't go fancy on gear. $120 for a headset, old gym bag for a flight bag, few cheaper books and you're off.

Anyways, under $8k for a ticket to the sky is plenty doable.

They will ask you a lot (not sure for smaller amounts) so if you die in a private plane crash they probably won't want to pay you.  I thought Airman Certificates were also a matter of public record?  I just reupped on a thirty year term and was dinged for that and skydiving on my rate.

Sum Ting Wong
We Tu Loe
Bang Ding Ow

No, he's Captain Kent Parker Wright

Lotta variables in the 'cost to own' equation.  Too many owners fail to consider "unscheduled maintenance".  

Sure, a shop might give you a quote for how much it will cost to annual a 172, but that's the cost of the inspection.  When it turns out that that odd tendancy to act like the engine is running lean (which it's had off and on since you bought it) is caused by the carburetor bowl coming loose (vibration wore out the threads that the bolts are threaded into), and all that lean running burned up a cylinder or two, the bill is going to be a bit higher.  Then if the owner has to put the repairs off for a while, the plane sits.  If it's sitting on a tiedown, it's exposed to the weather, and just sitting will be the worst thing for it.  By the time the owner can come up with the money for the engine work, the battery might be scrap, corrosion could be working on the skin, various parts could be rusty...

If you are trying to decide whether or not you can afford to own a particular plane, you'd probably be better off looking for something cheaper to own, that you are certain you can afford.  ETA:  And if someone is trying to make you a great deal on a plane with "new paint", and you don't have a mechanic that you completely trust look it over very carefully, just walk away from that "creampuff"/nightmare.

Do your training cross countries without the aide of GPS.

When I got my first rating spins and stalls were required. Spins really aren't too necessary but its dumb as hell to not do stalls.

Eight years flying and only 500 hours?

Because military pilots have only a fraction of the hours as compared to civilian commercial pilots? No, it is very bizarre.

Yeah, I have ZERO interest in owning one. Too much of a pain in the ass, and I'm absolutely certain I can't truly afford it.

 

This... It is a lot harder to go from glass to steam.

I'm most interested in the traditional route. Train on (and eventually rent) ye olde 172.

 

 

This is why you will never fly. Most people that fly and continue to fly have a passion for it. It is very unlike most other hobbies or jobs.

Not necessarily true. It depends on how often you fly. You also do not have to be the only owner and there are other options than renting or owning.

Skip that idea. It's pointless. You are looking for a two seater. A 152 maybe. But better yet some LSA qualified plane. Get that ticket first. Upgrade later if you really want to. The simple point is that it's plenty doable under $8k. If you can't find out how, it means you don't want it enough. What city are you near anyways?

Bad advice and glass is not all that. I've seen both, some that learned glass first and others that learned on steam. Every one of the steam first pilots were better pilots and had a lot less trouble transitioning.

I was thinking the same thing. It also made me realize that the OP should not listen to anything this guy says if he can't even remember the very basic rule of having a flash light in good working order in the cockpit.

Sometimes it is just to simply get off Terra Firma....

If you don't understand this poem by John Gillespie then we can't explain any further...

"High Flight"

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I’ve climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
of sun-split clouds, — and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of — wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov’ring there,
I’ve chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air....

Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I’ve topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace.
Where never lark, or even eagle flew —
And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
- Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

WTF? lol have you even flown as a passenger? lol Flying wont change anything.

Yep, that should give you chills.

Had it memorized at one point.

I honestly don't see the difference in what gauges you fly, but I have over 10,000 hours so maybe that makes a difference.

That 51 is nice, but screw getting in a home built!

Can somebody tell me why having an electronic representation of an attitude indicator, altimeter, etc differs from their analog counterparts? Do they not behave identically?

Nothing wrong with a homebuilt. Just build it right. And a Van's? There are a lot more flight hours backing up those than many certified aircraft designs.

For some folks it's the scan. The method you look at the instruments. Steam gauges are basic enough though, that you have to look outside the plane. The setup to the glass cockpits can be so efficient and effective at displaying info that it's like flying a sim itself. Looking outside the plane is vital. It gives you proper perspective.

The other issue is you need to know how to do real piloting with all your information. What can give trouble to someone spending too much time with their head in the cockpit is chasing the numbers. Something goes hinky and they immediately lock onto the reading they want to correct. Especially as a new pilot, you need to rely on all your information, including what you see out of the windows. Learning to fly by instruments comes later or not at all. It is a specialized skill set that you don't just figure out on your own in a VFR aircraft.

Other writers can explain it better than me, but it's really something that you would need to experience. It's kind of analogous to training on a rifle. A very good way to learn is to start young with a single shot .22. If you give someone an AR and a mag and tell them to blaze away, they won't learn marksmanship nearly as quickly.

Your first 80 hours or so will be seat of the pants, you will fly in relation to the real horizon. When you practice slow flight you need the airspeed indicator and the ball as you reduce and increase power to affect yaw and torque. You need the Directional Gyro for heading and thats about it Learn the wind, learn the weather up to the point of being a fanatic. Get the written out of the way early and practice landings. If anything FAA examiners hate is being unsmooth and banging the plane and bouncing down the centerline. Make every single landing a "greaser". When you do solo it will be anticlimactic. After you solo the real work begins. Always scan for traffic, find other planes before your instructor, it will make a good habit for arriving home safely. Know your home airport and know your controllers if you are at a controlled field. Use checklists, I always had laminated checklists for each type of a/c I flew on a yoke clip or a kneepad along with VFR sectionals

That S51 IS a seven tenths home built and like most home builts, the quality is as good as the builder....!!!!

I still don't understand. If it's a bad habit to "chase the numbers" instead of just looking out the window to see what's going on (as a VFR pilot, anyway), doesn't this apply to steam gauges as well?

 

I have such a boner, right now.

 

Unless weight is an issue, you'd be far better off with a 150 or 152.  The 172 has a higher fuel burn, a little higher maintenance cost, probably a little more cost in insurance, and whoever is renting it to you will pass those costs on to you.  If weight is an issue, go on a diet and look for a skinny instructor (says the A&P that would have to lose quite a bit of weight before he could get a 150 off the ground with half tanks and a skinny instructor ).

A 172 is also quite a bit more stable than a 150 or 152.  To me, the 172 felt like I was in a boat, just mushing along, while the 150 seemed to let me feel every little 'bump' in the air.  Transitioning from the 150 to 172 was mainly "oh, I have to slow down to drop the flaps?" and "what does that radio do?"  I saw a few people switch from the 172 to the 150, while they were still learning, and they had to work at it.  Leave the two extra seats and extra radios until after you have the private certificate.

Actually, yes - glass cockpits can indeed show more info than steam gauges, a lot more in a much condensed space!
In fact so much more that most pilots turn off info they don't want to see because of clutter on the screen!
Steam gauges can show most of the same info but there isn't enough panel space for all of the gauges.....

Ok, my username is a bit misleading since I haven't flown an airplane in over 5 years (I'm going to change that very soon, in fact I just dug out my old headsets and stuck one on my wife to see if she was OK with it, and this thread interrupted a sporty's shopping experience) but I'd like to think I have something to add to this discussion.

When I last flew, the "glass cockpit" craze was in full swing.  I'm relatively certain that someone was working on squeezing the G-1000 in a powered parachute.  There is nothing wrong with steam gauges, and there is nothing wrong with EFIS. Honestly, you shouldn't worry about it at this point.  I can see a minor drawback to the glass, and that is that you have to learn a little more about it to be able to effectively utilize it, but in the grand scheme of thing that's small peanuts.  

What you should worry about it which flight school wants your money.  For an industry that has such narrow margins, there are a lot of flight schools that want to put themselves out of business, and most survive because they are the only game in a limited area.

Common problems:
Instructors that don't give a fuck.  High turnover rate means that you'll likely have a bunch of different instructors.  While this often affords you the opportunity to learn something new, it can also get in the way because instructor #2 is a peevish little bitch that thinks that everything instructor #1 taught you for 10 hours isn't the best way to do something.  

Flight school owners that don't give a fuck.  Be prepared for a "take it or leave it" attitude from some people.  They don't care if you drive out to the airport 10 times a month and you can't fly (see below) but you have to cancel a lesson last minute?  Well fuck you, buddy.  $100 no show fee, asshole.

Poorly maintained aircraft.  Sure, they're most likely safe and airworthy when it comes to critical items, but many places will cut corners where they can to save costs.  If one of the radios craps out, it gets repaired for the fourth time instead of replaced.  The fifth time it gets removed altogether.  Weak batteries, worn out starters and deferred maintenance lower dispatch reliability.  You just wasted your time and money to drive out for a lesson and the airplane is down for maintenance again.

My point here:  Choose a flight school that seems to want your business and you will go far.  If that means paying a little more and driving a little further, do it.  It will make your life easier and you won't question why you're spending so much money on a fun activity.  



Feel free to send me a PM now or at any point during training.  I used to help pilots with their questions for a living "back in the day."

It's an information overload thing.  With an old school panel, you look at a gauge, and the gauge tells you what it tells you.  If you are still learning, you look at as few gauges as possible, getting only what information you need and understand how to use, and ignore every other gauge on the panel until you have time to think about what they might be telling you.

Glass throws it onto one display and integrates it.  It's harder for you to glance at the display and pick out just the information you need, when you are still learning what to do with the other information.

1.) learn "stick rudder throttle". That is really all you need to know, and will get you out of trouble.
"Fly the airplane". Everything else is an extension of this.
2.) If able get instruction in a taildragger. That will help with #1.
3.) Find a place to instruct you in unusual attitudes and recovery. It will cost a bit more but will save your life.
4.) Never give into "get home-itis" it is fatal.

I wasn't confident with the instructor on the intro flight lesson today.  How do I tactfully schedule with another, more experienced instructor?

So you've seen the panels of Bonanzas and Barons that were owned by people who just had to have all the latest gadgets?

Just ask, not unreasonable to try a few to find one you click with. In some ways it is good to have a few instructors. Some will have more experience in different areas. Use their experience to your advantage. You will need a main instructor, just choose the one you work best with.

A part of it has to do with the way the readings react.  With a mechanical pointer you have a concept of how fast or how much something is moving, and where it is compared to other values.  Think of it like a clock... with a digital clock you see the seconds counting up, with a mechanical clock you can see the second hand move.  Another way to think about it is if you ask someone about a measurement.  If they say "three inches" you have to visualize three inches in your head.  If they show you a ruler with their thumb at the 3" mark, you see three inches, and how it compares to 2" and 4"

The other thing with glass is that it's extremely versatile, and you must know the ins and outs of the system to utilize it.  As an example, someone once changed the MFD on the airplane I usually flew from "track up" to "north up."  North up is for retards that were dropped on their head as children, and I had to go through a bunch of bullshit to get it to display properly.  It's possible to get in the airplane and see something you aren't used to seeing, and have to figure out how to change it back to what you need.

Thank you, Mr. Helper. My flash light was dead. Murphy was sitting right next to me.

If you are comfortable with the flight school you chose, simply go to the chief pilot and express your feeling and ask for another instructor.
It's no big deal and something you should do if you didn't feel comfortable.
Now, if you go through ALL of the instructors with the same feelings then maybe you should rethink this "hobby".

Pilots are a cocky bunch and all have their ways - especially instructor pilots.....

No extra batteries? You should have expected Mr Murphy.

Blow me. Shit happens. What made it worse was that the lights on the runway weren't working due to maintenance. I tried turing them on with my handheld backup radio and I thought it had failed too. It was quite the night. I had to drop my gear by hand, unsure if it had locked, then land on a dark runway at around 2:30AM.

When you go in for an annual and they replace a generator, make sure they bench test it first. They replaced my working gen with an inop one, and my right side fan belt snapped, so I was left with zero working generators. IM me if you want the name of the "repair" shop. Later, they "misplaced" my tail light assembly. They never touched my plane again.

To save money, you might want to read a few books on flying.    Having to be spoon fed is not a good way to get into aviation.    You not knowing what the elevators are for is like someone wanting to learn how to drive and not knowing what a wheel is.

My $.02 worth.  Learn on a steam gauge airplane, especially if you are going to be a VFR pilot for life.  I've made the transition both ways.  The first several years of my career were on steam gauges, then I made the switch to all glass, then I went back to a mostly round dial airplane.  It's much easier to go from steam to glass, than the other way around.

I've spent the majority of my 19,000 hours behind glass of one kind or another, but I'm really glad I got my start on steam gauge airplanes.

When training for an advanced rating, it isn't unusual for the student to have more experience than the instructor.

Learn what you need to learn from the instructor, if that can't be done, should be no problem asking for someone else.

My first instructor was a WWII vet....from  the German Army.  I had problems until I started wearing earplugs, then he didn't sound like he was always yelling at me.  Sometimes small irritants can be a big distraction.

Been working in aviation, off and on since 1987.  Can't recall ever "bench testing" a generator or alternator, or working in a shop that had the equipment to do that.

Tested quite a few of them on a ground run, though.

Wouldn't do any good to bench test the alternator, then install it on a plane that has a bad voltage regulator or shorted wire.

It is very possible.  I completed my PPL in 40.6 hrs in a steam gauge Tomahawk and transitioned into a 172 for the last few hours.  Find an instructor that you feel comfortable with and go.  FLy regularly.  Don't just do weekends.  Fly midweek after work, or before if possible.  A bit of bad weather will shut you down fast.  Became a member of a local flight club and have access to quite a few aircraft for minimal investment.

At least go do it long enough to do a solo. Knock those 8-10 hours out and then you can go rent as slowly as you want within reason.

I am speaking from fact, talk to any life insurance underwriter, my premium went up significantly on my policy.  Ironically in the same plane with a commercial rated pilot no problem