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Posted: 1/12/2015 10:37:01 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I I've played with a few of my pistols and my PVS-14, but that's about it. I've never claimed any different, I'll just defer to all of the combat vets here that are clamor ini for a new service sidearm. Let's see that would be you and.... Oh wait, it seems to pretty much be just you,... Quote HistoryQuoted:
I Quoted:
Since you know all about what I need, how many times have you used night vision and a handgun? Or a handgun in a confined space like a cave? Not rhetorical. I've played with a few of my pistols and my PVS-14, but that's about it. I've never claimed any different, I'll just defer to all of the combat vets here that are clamor ini for a new service sidearm. Let's see that would be you and.... Oh wait, it seems to pretty much be just you,... I agree with daemon 100%. |
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Posted: 1/12/2015 10:37:41 PM EDT
[#2]
WHY?
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Posted: 1/12/2015 10:45:10 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree with daemon 100%. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I Quoted:
Since you know all about what I need, how many times have you used night vision and a handgun? Or a handgun in a confined space like a cave? Not rhetorical. I've played with a few of my pistols and my PVS-14, but that's about it. I've never claimed any different, I'll just defer to all of the combat vets here that are clamor ini for a new service sidearm. Let's see that would be you and.... Oh wait, it seems to pretty much be just you,... I agree with daemon 100%. Same here...a more modern handgun is needed. The M9 is a good pistol although a bit outdated. Time for something with a higher capacity and ease of attaching a weaponlight or other accessory. That and possibly a caliber that's more effective with ball ammo... |
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Posted: 1/12/2015 10:45:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree with daemon 100%. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I Quoted:
Since you know all about what I need, how many times have you used night vision and a handgun? Or a handgun in a confined space like a cave? Not rhetorical. I've played with a few of my pistols and my PVS-14, but that's about it. I've never claimed any different, I'll just defer to all of the combat vets here that are clamor ini for a new service sidearm. Let's see that would be you and.... Oh wait, it seems to pretty much be just you,... I agree with daemon 100%. A lot of us do. |
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Posted: 1/12/2015 10:48:29 PM EDT
[#5]
Fair enough.
I stand corrected. I still think switching sidearms would be stupid, but I do acknowledge that there are several miltary members in this thread that want something different. |
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Posted: 1/12/2015 10:51:37 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same here...a more modern handgun is needed. The M9 is a good pistol although a bit outdated. Time for something with a higher capacity and ease of attaching a weaponlight or other accessory. That and possibly a caliber that's more effective with ball ammo... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I Quoted:
Since you know all about what I need, how many times have you used night vision and a handgun? Or a handgun in a confined space like a cave? Not rhetorical. I've played with a few of my pistols and my PVS-14, but that's about it. I've never claimed any different, I'll just defer to all of the combat vets here that are clamor ini for a new service sidearm. Let's see that would be you and.... Oh wait, it seems to pretty much be just you,... I agree with daemon 100%. Same here...a more modern handgun is needed. The M9 is a good pistol although a bit outdated. Time for something with a higher capacity and ease of attaching a weaponlight or other accessory. That and possibly a caliber that's more effective with ball ammo... And what caliber would that be? |
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Posted: 1/12/2015 10:56:19 PM EDT
[#7]
Spent a lot of time with guys that inhabit Bragg. To a man they all preferred a 17 or 19 to the 92. They carried 17's and 19's.
However, Big Green has to play to the lowest denominator. While a 17/19 makes mucho sense, we all know dumbasses that really need a safety. Not everyone is going to get the training and support needed to roll with an internal safety. Big Green is more worried about perception and blowback from multiple shitheads having an ND "due to no external safety"(my words) rather than getting us the best weapon possible. However, I do believe we may see BG make a good decision and go with the 17/19. Regardless of how we all feel, there has been some common sense shown by BG on occasion. Let us hope this is one of those times. |
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Posted: 1/12/2015 11:05:51 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Spent a lot of time with guys that inhabit Bragg. To a man they all preferred a 17 or 19 to the 92. They carried 17's and 19's. However, Big Green has to play to the lowest denominator. While a 17/19 makes mucho sense, we all know dumbasses that really need a safety. Not everyone is going to get the training and support needed to roll with an internal safety. Big Green is more worried about perception and blowback from multiple shitheads having an ND "due to no external safety"(my words) rather than getting us the best weapon possible. However, I do believe we may see BG make a good decision and go with the 17/19. Regardless of how we all feel, there has been some common sense shown by BG on occasion. Let us hope this is one of those times. Eh, they can get a 17/19 or M&P with manual safety, but personally, I don't believe it's necessary. M9's are ND'd all the time, the safety does not prevent this. I'll even go so far to say that a manual safety leads to a false sense of security, leading to complacency. |
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Posted: 1/12/2015 11:10:52 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I I've played with a few of my pistols and my PVS-14, but that's about it. I've never claimed any different, I'll just defer to all of the combat vets here that are clamor ini for a new service sidearm. Let's see that would be you and.... Oh wait, it seems to pretty much be just you,... Quote HistoryQuoted:
I Quoted:
Since you know all about what I need, how many times have you used night vision and a handgun? Or a handgun in a confined space like a cave? Not rhetorical. I've played with a few of my pistols and my PVS-14, but that's about it. I've never claimed any different, I'll just defer to all of the combat vets here that are clamor ini for a new service sidearm. Let's see that would be you and.... Oh wait, it seems to pretty much be just you,... Let's just face it. The M9 was the "CUCV" sidearm. You know, something pressed into service even though it wasn't really suited for the task, but something was needed to fill in the gap until something better was adopted. |
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Posted: 1/12/2015 11:12:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lot of us do. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I Quoted:
Since you know all about what I need, how many times have you used night vision and a handgun? Or a handgun in a confined space like a cave? Not rhetorical. I've played with a few of my pistols and my PVS-14, but that's about it. I've never claimed any different, I'll just defer to all of the combat vets here that are clamor ini for a new service sidearm. Let's see that would be you and.... Oh wait, it seems to pretty much be just you,... I agree with daemon 100%. A lot of us do. Yes we do. |
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Posted: 1/12/2015 11:13:55 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There will not be a new general issue pistol for decades. This is just another circle jerk for some retard to use as a bullet point for his/her next promotion. |
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Posted: 1/12/2015 11:17:14 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And what caliber would that be? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I Quoted:
Since you know all about what I need, how many times have you used night vision and a handgun? Or a handgun in a confined space like a cave? Not rhetorical. I've played with a few of my pistols and my PVS-14, but that's about it. I've never claimed any different, I'll just defer to all of the combat vets here that are clamor ini for a new service sidearm. Let's see that would be you and.... Oh wait, it seems to pretty much be just you,... I agree with daemon 100%. Same here...a more modern handgun is needed. The M9 is a good pistol although a bit outdated. Time for something with a higher capacity and ease of attaching a weaponlight or other accessory. That and possibly a caliber that's more effective with ball ammo... And what caliber would that be? Caliber .50 GI 275gr 
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Posted: 1/12/2015 11:19:58 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And what caliber would that be? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I Quoted:
Since you know all about what I need, how many times have you used night vision and a handgun? Or a handgun in a confined space like a cave? Not rhetorical. I've played with a few of my pistols and my PVS-14, but that's about it. I've never claimed any different, I'll just defer to all of the combat vets here that are clamor ini for a new service sidearm. Let's see that would be you and.... Oh wait, it seems to pretty much be just you,... I agree with daemon 100%. Same here...a more modern handgun is needed. The M9 is a good pistol although a bit outdated. Time for something with a higher capacity and ease of attaching a weaponlight or other accessory. That and possibly a caliber that's more effective with ball ammo... And what caliber would that be? Wasn't trying to open that can of worms. My personal choice would be .45acp as its a decent man stopper even with ball ammo. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 12:07:17 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Eh, they can get a 17/19 or M&P with manual safety, but personally, I don't believe it's necessary. M9's are ND'd all the time, the safety does not prevent this. I'll even go so far to say that a manual safety leads to a false sense of security, leading to complacency. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Spent a lot of time with guys that inhabit Bragg. To a man they all preferred a 17 or 19 to the 92. They carried 17's and 19's. However, Big Green has to play to the lowest denominator. While a 17/19 makes mucho sense, we all know dumbasses that really need a safety. Not everyone is going to get the training and support needed to roll with an internal safety. Big Green is more worried about perception and blowback from multiple shitheads having an ND "due to no external safety"(my words) rather than getting us the best weapon possible. However, I do believe we may see BG make a good decision and go with the 17/19. Regardless of how we all feel, there has been some common sense shown by BG on occasion. Let us hope this is one of those times. Eh, they can get a 17/19 or M&P with manual safety, but personally, I don't believe it's necessary. M9's are ND'd all the time, the safety does not prevent this. I'll even go so far to say that a manual safety leads to a false sense of security, leading to complacency. Very true. I knew an MP that ND'd his M9 indoors, he showed me the hole in the concrete wall. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 12:21:35 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Very true. I knew an MP that ND'd his M9 indoors, he showed me the hole in the concrete wall. A Major ND'd his M9 into the coffee maker at our battalion TOC! Also an E6 ND'd an M500 in the barracks. There was a strange case that involved two NCO's wrestling and one of their M9's somehow "went off". 
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Posted: 1/13/2015 12:45:43 AM EDT
[#16]
I snagged this snipped of of Wiki to get the base line requirements laid out on the MHS
In January 2013, the Army released a Request for Information (RFI) to assess available handgun technologies and U.S. small arms industrial production capacity for the Modular Handgun System. The announcement seeks information “on potential improvements in handgun performance in the areas of accuracy and dispersion out to 50 meters, terminal performance, modularity, reliability, and durability in all environments.” The handgun should have a 90 percent or more chance of hitting in a 4 inch circle out to 50 meters consistently throughout the weapon's lifetime. Ergonomic design should minimize recoil energies and control shot dispersion. Features include, but are not limited to, compatibility with accessory items to include tactical lights, lasers, and sound suppressors. Full ambidextrous controls are required and there is interest in ergonomic designs that can be controlled by female shooters. There is no specific caliber, but terminal ballistics at 50 meters through 14 inches of ballistics gel will assess lethality compared to M882 9mm rounds. Specific interest is given to pistols that can accommodate higher chamber pressures over 20 percent greater than SAAMI spec for the cartridge without degradation of reliability. The RFI calls for 2,000 mean rounds between stoppages, 10,000 mean rounds between failures, and a 35,000 round service life. Manufacturers are asked to provide production capacity estimates on minimum and maximum monthly rates, as well as the lead times to achieve those rates. Estimated pricing is requested for quantities of 250,000 to 550,000 handguns.[4] As I read this, I'm warming up to the MHS as it seems like it may actually be fairly well thought out. I guess we will see. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 12:52:15 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My personal choice would be .45acp as its a decent man stopper even with ball ammo. Well... Except it isn't. .45ACP and 9mm FMJ rounds produce wound channels that are damn near indistinguishable. You just get fewer or them per magazine e with the .45. 
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Posted: 1/13/2015 1:11:31 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have had no failures with mine, the trigger smooths out nicely after about 500 rounds, and it has blackened stainless everything, so maintenance is a breeze. The Beretta was a heavy bitch in comparison. Nice to see a review reflecting what I hope the gun to be. I bought mine because I wanted something lighter and higher capacity than my 1911 for CCW. Still a .45 fan, but love having more than double the ammo available before reloading too. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 1:42:08 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Counterpoint: I predict wider issue of SIG M11-A1 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There will not be a new general issue pistol for decades. This is just another circle jerk for some retard to use as a bullet point for his/her next promotion. I predict wider issue of SIG M11-A1 . Hell, I have two of em (Black and Brown), and think it's one of the best pistols made right now. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 3:20:35 AM EDT
[#20]
Put the S&W 13 back in production. K-frame, fixed sights, .357 Magnum. Or a similarly sized gun from Ruger, I don't care.
Make the standard load a 158 grain SWC doing about 1000 fps. Good balance of power and controllability, more effective terminal ballistics that fly under Geneva Convention radar. Cut the cylinders for moon clips holding 9mm. That'll shut NATO up about interoperability (not that they matter anyway). Melonite and ceracoat for corrosion resistance and increased durability. Put a ribbed rubber grip on it. Absorbs recoil, conforms to any hand. Or hell, issue 2-3 sizes of rubber grips. Fork, done. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 3:24:36 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Eh, they can get a 17/19 or M&P with manual safety, but personally, I don't believe it's necessary. M9's are ND'd all the time, the safety does not prevent this. I'll even go so far to say that a manual safety leads to a false sense of security, leading to complacency. I totally agree with this idea. Every time I had someone who had trouble qualifying with the M9, I took them out to a civilian range (assuming they were one of mine, that is...) with one of my Glocks, and could usually get them to the point where they could qualify within a couple of boxes of 9mm. Every one of those individuals was a lot safer with the Glock than they were with the M9, because of that whole "It's always loaded" thing. The manual safety is a false concept, as far as I'm concerned--The average person is better off without one than with. They think that if it's on safe, they can screw around with the gun, and when there isn't a safety, they don't screw with it. I've seen some numbers, somewhere, showing that the European military forces that have adopted the Glock after having had a pistol with a manual safety almost immediately showed a drastic reduction in ND incidents. It's kind of like that experiment they did in Holland, where they removed all the traffic control measures and signs in a town, and then had something like an 80-90% reduction in car accidents. You remove the false sense of safety brought on with the idea of a manual safety, and people suddenly start treating the situation like conscious adults. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 3:27:57 AM EDT
[#22]
Another important application for sidearms is ADVON parties in not so friendly places, where the ROE or force posture doesn't jive with long guns outside of vehicles.
When deployed, there were times when I went out with people not in my immediate unit in civilian vehicles for administrative tasks where we just wanted to get from A to B and back to A with as little of a signature as possible because we didn't want to be targets. Regular Army folks have done this throughout history, and are going to do it in the future. The Army would be well advised to look at something with PDW terminal effects, with a lot of concealability and firepower. That would warrant a whole new era of sidearm PDW's in my book, but I guess they will just settle on some typical garbage like we've always seen. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 8:06:21 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Same here...a more modern handgun is needed. The M9 is a good pistol although a bit outdated. Time for something with a higher capacity and ease of attaching a weaponlight or other accessory. That and possibly a caliber that's more effective with ball ammo... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I Quoted: Since you know all about what I need, how many times have you used night vision and a handgun? Or a handgun in a confined space like a cave? Not rhetorical. I've played with a few of my pistols and my PVS-14, but that's about it. I've never claimed any different, I'll just defer to all of the combat vets here that are clamor ini for a new service sidearm. Let's see that would be you and.... Oh wait, it seems to pretty much be just you,... I agree with daemon 100%. Same here...a more modern handgun is needed. The M9 is a good pistol although a bit outdated. Time for something with a higher capacity and ease of attaching a weaponlight or other accessory. That and possibly a caliber that's more effective with ball ammo... Higher capacity? Mec-Gar makes 18rd flush fit mags and 20rd extended mags.  As for outdated... we're stilling using metallic cartridges that propel metallic projectiles through the combustion of nitrocellulose powders. A new pistol will do the same thing. Same thing with the whole XM8 debacle and even the FN SCAR-16. They all do the same shit as the M4. Launch a 62gr 5.56 projectile.
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Posted: 1/13/2015 8:08:19 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Spent a lot of time with guys that inhabit Bragg. To a man they all preferred a 17 or 19 to the 92. They carried 17's and 19's. However, Big Green has to play to the lowest denominator. While a 17/19 makes mucho sense, we all know dumbasses that really need a safety. Not everyone is going to get the training and support needed to roll with an internal safety. Big Green is more worried about perception and blowback from multiple shitheads having an ND "due to no external safety"(my words) rather than getting us the best weapon possible. However, I do believe we may see BG make a good decision and go with the 17/19. Regardless of how we all feel, there has been some common sense shown by BG on occasion. Let us hope this is one of those times. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 8:11:00 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I snagged this snipped of of Wiki to get the base line requirements laid out on the MHS As I read this, I'm warming up to the MHS as it seems like it may actually be fairly well thought out. I guess we will see. Quote HistoryQuoted: I snagged this snipped of of Wiki to get the base line requirements laid out on the MHS In January 2013, the Army released a Request for Information (RFI) to assess available handgun technologies and U.S. small arms industrial production capacity for the Modular Handgun System. The announcement seeks information "on potential improvements in handgun performance in the areas of accuracy and dispersion out to 50 meters, terminal performance, modularity, reliability, and durability in all environments.” The handgun should have a 90 percent or more chance of hitting in a 4 inch circle out to 50 meters consistently throughout the weapon's lifetime. Ergonomic design should minimize recoil energies and control shot dispersion. Features include, but are not limited to, compatibility with accessory items to include tactical lights, lasers, and sound suppressors. Full ambidextrous controls are required and there is interest in ergonomic designs that can be controlled by female shooters. There is no specific caliber, but terminal ballistics at 50 meters through 14 inches of ballistics gel will assess lethality compared to M882 9mm rounds. Specific interest is given to pistols that can accommodate higher chamber pressures over 20 percent greater than SAAMI spec for the cartridge without degradation of reliability. The RFI calls for 2,000 mean rounds between stoppages, 10,000 mean rounds between failures, and a 35,000 round service life. Manufacturers are asked to provide production capacity estimates on minimum and maximum monthly rates, as well as the lead times to achieve those rates. Estimated pricing is requested for quantities of 250,000 to 550,000 handguns.[4] As I read this, I'm warming up to the MHS as it seems like it may actually be fairly well thought out. I guess we will see. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 8:12:20 AM EDT
[#26]
May as well get in on this one.
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Posted: 1/13/2015 8:24:53 AM EDT
[#27]
Personal view...
Handguns are secondary weapons. Some smart people from NC have gone so far as to carry Glock 26s as they are smaller, lighter, can take the 19 mag, and will do what a pistol needs to do (Be a backup weapon). I could see a Glock 26 being the solution. Pistols are all but useless in a rifle fight anyway. To think that a bigger pistol is going to help is folly. It is still a pistol. Lightest, smallest 9mm that holds 15 rounds and is durable/reliable. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 8:44:01 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Personal view... Handguns are secondary weapons. Some smart people from NC have gone so far as to carry Glock 26s as they are smaller, lighter, can take the 19 mag, and will do what a pistol needs to do (Be a backup weapon). I could see a Glock 26 being the solution. Pistols are all but useless in a rifle fight anyway. To think that a bigger pistol is going to help is folly. It is still a pistol. Lightest, smallest 9mm that holds 15 rounds and is durable/reliable. but the one size fits all mentality kicks our ass. we want the same pistol that is a back up for some, that is concealed for some, and is primary for some. oh, and then some fucking retard will demand they have a 45 because it has, "knock down power." |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 9:11:17 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
but the one size fits all mentality kicks our ass. we want the same pistol that is a back up for some, that is concealed for some, and is primary for some. oh, and then some fucking retard will demand they have a 45 because it has, "knock down power." Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Personal view... Handguns are secondary weapons. Some smart people from NC have gone so far as to carry Glock 26s as they are smaller, lighter, can take the 19 mag, and will do what a pistol needs to do (Be a backup weapon). I could see a Glock 26 being the solution. Pistols are all but useless in a rifle fight anyway. To think that a bigger pistol is going to help is folly. It is still a pistol. Lightest, smallest 9mm that holds 15 rounds and is durable/reliable. but the one size fits all mentality kicks our ass. we want the same pistol that is a back up for some, that is concealed for some, and is primary for some. oh, and then some fucking retard will demand they have a 45 because it has, "knock down power." Exactly. Everyones view here on the pistol is only as a backup for charging bunkers. There are so many more viable reasons for a pistol aside from that. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 9:12:08 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Big Army needs to fucking do proper pistol training and the development of proper pistolcraft for soldiers and by doing so it will stop Private Snuffie from having an ND. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Spent a lot of time with guys that inhabit Bragg. To a man they all preferred a 17 or 19 to the 92. They carried 17's and 19's. However, Big Green has to play to the lowest denominator. While a 17/19 makes mucho sense, we all know dumbasses that really need a safety. Not everyone is going to get the training and support needed to roll with an internal safety. Big Green is more worried about perception and blowback from multiple shitheads having an ND "due to no external safety"(my words) rather than getting us the best weapon possible. However, I do believe we may see BG make a good decision and go with the 17/19. Regardless of how we all feel, there has been some common sense shown by BG on occasion. Let us hope this is one of those times. Too many rocks to paint. I expect a rational man could stop enough waste and warehousing of unneeded materiel to pay for first class training. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 9:16:00 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Exactly. Everyones view here on the pistol is only as a backup for charging bunkers. There are so many more viable reasons for a pistol aside from that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Personal view... Handguns are secondary weapons. Some smart people from NC have gone so far as to carry Glock 26s as they are smaller, lighter, can take the 19 mag, and will do what a pistol needs to do (Be a backup weapon). I could see a Glock 26 being the solution. Pistols are all but useless in a rifle fight anyway. To think that a bigger pistol is going to help is folly. It is still a pistol. Lightest, smallest 9mm that holds 15 rounds and is durable/reliable. but the one size fits all mentality kicks our ass. we want the same pistol that is a back up for some, that is concealed for some, and is primary for some. oh, and then some fucking retard will demand they have a 45 because it has, "knock down power." Exactly. Everyones view here on the pistol is only as a backup for charging bunkers. There are so many more viable reasons for a pistol aside from that. I think the G19 is the best compromise, but I am biased. the 92 is too fucking big. Best of all would be to acknowledge there are different requirements and to purchase pistols for different communities. the M11 is an example of that. But even that is really too big for a concealed only application. They still fucked that one up. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 9:17:04 AM EDT
[#32]
Have we concluded that it will probably be another 9mm gun?
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Posted: 1/13/2015 9:17:39 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
As for outdated... we're stilling using metallic cartridges that propel metallic projectiles through the combustion of nitrocellulose powders. A new pistol will do the same thing. Same thing with the whole XM8 debacle and even the FN SCAR-16. They all do the same shit as the M4. Launch a 62gr 5.56 projectile. Terrible, terrible viewpoint. So limited yet so broad at the same time. With that point of view the SPCS is a waste of time versus the IOTV.. Or the M1A1 vs M1A2. Or M240L versus M240B. Ops core vs ACH. M224 Vs M224A1. Equipment changes, sometimes not in ways that are very measurable for the outside viewer, but very relevant for the user. Just because you also use a pistol either recreationally or in your profession does not make you qualified in the same manner as a military user. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 9:18:34 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think the G19 is the best compromise, but I am biased. the 92 is too fucking big. Best of all would be to acknowledge there are different requirements and to purchase pistols for different communities. the M11 is an example of that. But even that is really too big for a concealed only application. They still fucked that one up. If they get the M in MHS right there truly could be a compromise. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 9:22:05 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have we concluded that it will probably be another 9mm gun? god I hope so. Its NATO standard. all these high profile purchases of 45s by kool kids and they end up carrything glocks in theater. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 9:22:19 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have we concluded that it will probably be another 9mm gun? I hope so, switching to another caliber would be foolish. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 9:22:58 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wasn't trying to open that can of worms. My personal choice would be .45acp as its a decent man stopper even with ball ammo. Tell me more about "man stoppers". |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 9:23:45 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have we concluded that it will probably be another 9mm gun? Anything else would be silly. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 9:26:45 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tell me more about "man stoppers". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Wasn't trying to open that can of worms. My personal choice would be .45acp as its a decent man stopper even with ball ammo. Tell me more about "man stoppers". true story. In 1945 we only had one atomic bomb. But we shot a .45 at Nagasaki and the japs couldn't tell the difference. When me and my friends go air softing, we use 9mm if we don't have eye protection so no one gets hurt. Let me break this down for you. If you have a 9mm, you are going to die. Every. Single. Time. Only 45s have knock down power. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 10:00:33 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Terrible, terrible viewpoint. So limited yet so broad at the same time. With that point of view the SPCS is a waste of time versus the IOTV.. Or the M1A1 vs M1A2. Or M240L versus M240B. Ops core vs ACH. M224 Vs M224A1. Equipment changes, sometimes not in ways that are very measurable for the outside viewer, but very relevant for the user. Just because you also use a pistol either recreationally or in your profession does not make you qualified in the same manner as a military user. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: As for outdated... we're stilling using metallic cartridges that propel metallic projectiles through the combustion of nitrocellulose powders. A new pistol will do the same thing. Same thing with the whole XM8 debacle and even the FN SCAR-16. They all do the same shit as the M4. Launch a 62gr 5.56 projectile. Terrible, terrible viewpoint. So limited yet so broad at the same time. With that point of view the SPCS is a waste of time versus the IOTV.. Or the M1A1 vs M1A2. Or M240L versus M240B. Ops core vs ACH. M224 Vs M224A1. Equipment changes, sometimes not in ways that are very measurable for the outside viewer, but very relevant for the user. Just because you also use a pistol either recreationally or in your profession does not make you qualified in the same manner as a military user.  Same parts and magazine compatibility with the fullsize M9. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 10:15:22 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bullshit there isn't. The safety is in a retarded position. We had to leave out pistol chambers empty when outside the wire because they would routinely get moved from safe to fire through the normal duties of helicopter crewmembers. Whats the fucking point of a safety if you don't know what position it will be in when you reach for it in a need? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I thought it allowed for decipher only. Bullshit there isn't. The safety is in a retarded position. We had to leave out pistol chambers empty when outside the wire because they would routinely get moved from safe to fire through the normal duties of helicopter crewmembers. Whats the fucking point of a safety if you don't know what position it will be in when you reach for it in a need? Are you serious? If so, then this is a direct result of poor training, and I dont mean to be insulting, but it is a de-cocker, not a safety, and if the hammer is down, which if you de-cock when leaving the arming point, it will be, then how will it move? Are you saying that the hammer would cock as you moved around the helo? If that is the case, and you cannot move the decocking lever from one position to another without manipulation of the hammer , then you folks had the shittiest holsters on the planet and your helo was filled with items that constantly snagged your guns hammer and cocked your firearms. Sorry, but every time I carried an M-9, it was with a round in the chamber, and the weapon de-cocked. It rode in either an M-82, with a drop leg extender and thumb snap, or on my Interceptor in an M-82 with the flap, or in a Bianchi jacket slot thumb break on a Sam Browne. Not once did I ever have the hammer and thus the decocker, move on me, despite moving into and out of very confined spaces such as HMMWV's and smaller vehicles. My last duty holster was the Blackhawk Omega, and again, I had zero issues. Now, as to the de-cocker issue itself, I am old enough to remember when the M-9 was the new kid on the block, replacing our well worn but beloved 1911's in the Corps. The de-cocker and double action first shot was supposed to make for a safer pistol, and the slide mounting was the preferred location. This is nothing more than some idiot thinking that "different has to be better", just as the last idiot thought when we moved away from the 1911. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 10:16:43 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
god I hope so. Its NATO standard. all these high profile purchases of 45s by kool kids and they end up carrything glocks in theater. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Have we concluded that it will probably be another 9mm gun? god I hope so. Its NATO standard. all these high profile purchases of 45s by kool kids and they end up carrything glocks in theater. I understand but admittedly I am in la'-la' land hoping for 10mm being the standard. Why you might ask.............because ammo will be cheaper for me and so will components.
Not really..........10mm in the hands of a soldier would be a beautiful thing IMHO. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 10:17:12 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you serious? If so, then this is a direct result of poor training, and I dont mean to be insulting, but it is a de-cocker, not a safety, and if the hammer is down, which if you de-cock when leaving the arming point, it will be, then how will it move? Are you saying that the hammer would cock as you moved around the helo? If that is the case, and you cannot move the decocking lever from one position to another without manipulation of the hammer , then you folks had the shittiest holsters on the planet and your helo was filled with items that constantly snagged your guns hammer and cocked your firearms. Sorry, but every time I carried an M-9, it was with a round in the chamber, and the weapon de-cocked. It rode in either an M-82, with a drop leg extender and thumb snap, or on my Interceptor in an M-82 with the flap, or in a Bianchi jacket slot thumb break on a Sam Browne. Not once did I ever have the hammer and thus the decocker, move on me, despite moving into and out of very confined spaces such as HMMWV's and smaller vehicles. My last duty holster was the Blackhawk Omega, and again, I had zero issues. Now, as to the de-cocker issue itself, I am old enough to remember when the M-9 was the new kid on the block, replacing our well worn but beloved 1911's in the Corps. The de-cocker and double action first shot was supposed to make for a safer pistol, and the slide mounting was the preferred location. This is nothing more than some idiot thinking that "different has to be better", just as the last idiot thought when we moved away from the 1911. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I thought it allowed for decipher only. Bullshit there isn't. The safety is in a retarded position. We had to leave out pistol chambers empty when outside the wire because they would routinely get moved from safe to fire through the normal duties of helicopter crewmembers. Whats the fucking point of a safety if you don't know what position it will be in when you reach for it in a need? Are you serious? If so, then this is a direct result of poor training, and I dont mean to be insulting, but it is a de-cocker, not a safety, and if the hammer is down, which if you de-cock when leaving the arming point, it will be, then how will it move? Are you saying that the hammer would cock as you moved around the helo? If that is the case, and you cannot move the decocking lever from one position to another without manipulation of the hammer , then you folks had the shittiest holsters on the planet and your helo was filled with items that constantly snagged your guns hammer and cocked your firearms. Sorry, but every time I carried an M-9, it was with a round in the chamber, and the weapon de-cocked. It rode in either an M-82, with a drop leg extender and thumb snap, or on my Interceptor in an M-82 with the flap, or in a Bianchi jacket slot thumb break on a Sam Browne. Not once did I ever have the hammer and thus the decocker, move on me, despite moving into and out of very confined spaces such as HMMWV's and smaller vehicles. My last duty holster was the Blackhawk Omega, and again, I had zero issues. Now, as to the de-cocker issue itself, I am old enough to remember when the M-9 was the new kid on the block, replacing our well worn but beloved 1911's in the Corps. The de-cocker and double action first shot was supposed to make for a safer pistol, and the slide mounting was the preferred location. This is nothing more than some idiot thinking that "different has to be better", just as the last idiot thought when we moved away from the 1911. no. having spent way too much time with M9 in combat, the safety can move up and down as you move around. Especially mounted on your chest. No matter what condition you carry it in, it could be on safe or fire when you draw. I had no problem carrying it on safe because I was going to sweep the safety everytime anyway. safeties on combat pistols are stupid now. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 10:17:41 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I understand but admittedly I am in la'-la' land hoping for 10mm being the standard. Why you might ask.............because ammo will be cheaper for me and so will components.
Not really..........10mm in the hands of a soldier would be a beautiful thing IMHO. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Have we concluded that it will probably be another 9mm gun? god I hope so. Its NATO standard. all these high profile purchases of 45s by kool kids and they end up carrything glocks in theater. I understand but admittedly I am in la'-la' land hoping for 10mm being the standard. Why you might ask.............because ammo will be cheaper for me and so will components.
Not really..........10mm in the hands of a soldier would be a beautiful thing IMHO. 50 AE or you are going to die. we need real knock down power. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 10:19:04 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
............... 50 AE or you are going to die. we need real knock down power. No..........that's too powerful for me.
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Posted: 1/13/2015 10:28:40 AM EDT
[#46]
Everyone here is wrong! They need Deagles! .50AE for knock down power! Mother fucking Deagles for everyone! I've never seen one jam in a movie. They have low recoil in all the video games I've shot them in! My controller barely vibrates with each shot.
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Posted: 1/13/2015 10:30:27 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Everyone here is wrong! They need Deagles! .50AE for knock down power! Mother fucking Deagles for everyone! I've never seen one jam in a movie. They have low recoil in all the video games I've shot them in! My controller barely vibrates with each shot. Hmm.............maybe I really do need to rethink this?
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Posted: 1/13/2015 10:32:51 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I snagged this snipped of of Wiki to get the base line requirements laid out on the MHS As I read this, I'm warming up to the MHS as it seems like it may actually be fairly well thought out. I guess we will see. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I snagged this snipped of of Wiki to get the base line requirements laid out on the MHS In January 2013, the Army released a Request for Information (RFI) to assess available handgun technologies and U.S. small arms industrial production capacity for the Modular Handgun System. The announcement seeks information “on potential improvements in handgun performance in the areas of accuracy and dispersion out to 50 meters, terminal performance, modularity, reliability, and durability in all environments.” The handgun should have a 90 percent or more chance of hitting in a 4 inch circle out to 50 meters consistently throughout the weapon's lifetime. Ergonomic design should minimize recoil energies and control shot dispersion. Features include, but are not limited to, compatibility with accessory items to include tactical lights, lasers, and sound suppressors. Full ambidextrous controls are required and there is interest in ergonomic designs that can be controlled by female shooters. There is no specific caliber, but terminal ballistics at 50 meters through 14 inches of ballistics gel will assess lethality compared to M882 9mm rounds. Specific interest is given to pistols that can accommodate higher chamber pressures over 20 percent greater than SAAMI spec for the cartridge without degradation of reliability. The RFI calls for 2,000 mean rounds between stoppages, 10,000 mean rounds between failures, and a 35,000 round service life. Manufacturers are asked to provide production capacity estimates on minimum and maximum monthly rates, as well as the lead times to achieve those rates. Estimated pricing is requested for quantities of 250,000 to 550,000 handguns.[4] As I read this, I'm warming up to the MHS as it seems like it may actually be fairly well thought out. I guess we will see. I'm seeing FN and S&W more and more. Seems like they're asking for a low bore-axis, adjustable grip, fully ambidextrous pistol. 
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Posted: 1/13/2015 10:35:53 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another important application for sidearms is ADVON parties in not so friendly places, where the ROE or force posture doesn't jive with long guns outside of vehicles. When deployed, there were times when I went out with people not in my immediate unit in civilian vehicles for administrative tasks where we just wanted to get from A to B and back to A with as little of a signature as possible because we didn't want to be targets. Regular Army folks have done this throughout history, and are going to do it in the future. The Army would be well advised to look at something with PDW terminal effects, with a lot of concealability and firepower. That would warrant a whole new era of sidearm PDW's in my book, but I guess they will just settle on some typical garbage like we've always seen. Although I am not a huge fan of Glock, I appreciate that they have much to offer. One of those things would be magazine and some part compatibility for the 17/19 model line with the Glock 18, which could be used as a pistol/pdw for units deemed qualified to carry it. An 18 with a foldable VFG would be useful in very close quarters, such as caves or tight corners, also useful for areas where insurgents operate but are not expected, such as inside our own FOBs. Again, I am sure this will never happen, but since you mentioned PDW this came to mind. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 10:38:12 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As for outdated... we're stilling using metallic cartridges that propel metallic projectiles through the combustion of nitrocellulose powders. A new pistol will do the same thing. Same thing with the whole XM8 debacle and even the FN SCAR-16. They all do the same shit as the M4. Launch a 62gr 5.56 projectile. How effectively can you get said projectile on target, under ALL conditions, for all soldiers, is the bigger issue now I think. |
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