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Posted: 4/5/2017 2:56:09 PM EDT
[#1]
Does anyone know if a 240 Bravo can area fire with any kind of accuracy at 1000 meters?
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Posted: 4/5/2017 2:56:21 PM EDT
[#2]
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Soldier systems is run by H&K? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Does HK pay you to share their propaganda? According to multiple sources, what started out as a directed requirement for a 7.62 NATO Designated Marksmanship Rifle for issue to Infantry Rifle Squads has grown in scope to increase the Basis of Issue to all personnel in Brigade Combat Teams and perhaps beyond. The genesis of this requirement is overmatch. The troops feel like they’re in a street fight with a guy with longer arms. The 7.62x54R cartridge gives the enemy those longer arms. I've done two deployments to Iraq in Brigade Combat Teams. I can count the number of engagements where x54R was used on one hand. No way in fuck we're switching to 7.62 NATO just to hold the line until some 6.5 caliber and the rifle to shoot it is accepted. You should file a FOIA request for the information listed in the italicized paragraph. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 2:58:13 PM EDT
[#3]
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We want a big, heavy, piston 762 AR, but we want it small, compact, lightweight, and be able to meet requirements of female soldiers. We also already have a 762 rifle, the SCAR, but we're not going to go with that. We're now going to masturbate over the choices and spend billions of dollars, only to inexplicably go with Sig. Because reasons. The SCAR is not a good battle rifle. Tons of issues. I for one am glad it wouldn't be adopted. So in a way I guess you are right it is reasons- good ones. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 2:59:19 PM EDT
[#4]
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Lol. The m14 ebr, SCAR-H, and KAC M110 were all mentioned in that article, yet you only quoted the part about the HK. I put a link there for everyone to read in full. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 2:59:57 PM EDT
[#5]
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Instead of destroying or giving away M-14 rifles during the 70's and 80's someone should have been working on modifications to make the rifle more user friendly for our troops. A better mounting system for optics, an adjustable stock, composite magazines etc. Oh Hell No! The military wants to spend billions on some shiny new toy that will take decades to develop and by then will want to scrap it for some kind of plasma rifle in the 40 watt range. Pissing our tax money away has become a art form for the military.   Attached File |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:00:12 PM EDT
[#6]
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I laugh at this whole report but your reply makes me laugh more. The SCAR is not a good battle rifle. Tons of issues. I for one am glad it wouldn't be adopted. So in a way I guess you are right it is reasons- good ones. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
We want a big, heavy, piston 762 AR, but we want it small, compact, lightweight, and be able to meet requirements of female soldiers. We also already have a 762 rifle, the SCAR, but we're not going to go with that. We're now going to masturbate over the choices and spend billions of dollars, only to inexplicably go with Sig. Because reasons. The SCAR is not a good battle rifle. Tons of issues. I for one am glad it wouldn't be adopted. So in a way I guess you are right it is reasons- good ones. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:01:07 PM EDT
[#7]
OFFS
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:02:10 PM EDT
[#8]
Grendel. Just switch to Grendel. Then sell all that sweet 5.56 at blowout prices.
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:02:41 PM EDT
[#9]
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.260 Rem would be great, and could even be used in existing rifles with a rebarrel. And in something like the SCAR or G2 from DPMS, not overly heavy. I know some people are going to cry about the weight, but they forget that our grandfathers fought in WW2 with the heavy Garand and did quite well, despite them being much smaller (on average) than we are. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:03:27 PM EDT
[#10]
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Truth be told 5.56 is about as small as you can go and have it work ok. But all considered, perhaps that's the best answer. Most bullets strike dirt, after all. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:04:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I believe the "multiple (non-cited) sources" SSD are reporting is nothing more than HK bullshit. According to multiple sources, what started out as a directed requirement for a 7.62 NATO Designated Marksmanship Rifle for issue to Infantry Rifle Squads has grown in scope to increase the Basis of Issue to all personnel in Brigade Combat Teams and perhaps beyond. The genesis of this requirement is overmatch. The troops feel like they’re in a street fight with a guy with longer arms. The 7.62x54R cartridge gives the enemy those longer arms. I've done two deployments to Iraq in Brigade Combat Teams. I can count the number of engagements where x54R was used on one hand. No way in fuck we're switching to 7.62 NATO just to hold the line until some 6.5 caliber and the rifle to shoot it is accepted. You should file a FOIA request for the information listed in the italicized paragraph. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:04:24 PM EDT
[#12]
Why don't they just issue SCARs or .308 AR's for troops fighting in those situations? Or provide them the rifles and let them decide if they want to go out on missions with the bigger gun or not?
Seems silly to change everyone's weapon to .308 and then change it again to 6. something, when 6mm cartridges and AR's are already available to choose from. But I guess they want to drag this out and spend a lot of money. Nevermind the moving away from 5.56 means probably losing the advantageous characteristic tumble-and-fracture that the round does at shorter distanced. FMJ 6.5 or whatever would probably wound more like an AK round, just tumble and pass through. Unless the Army starts using better bullets, I think the 5.56 is probably still great for most conflicts. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:05:27 PM EDT
[#13]
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Out of curiosity what are the issues with the SCAR? I know the stocks often break, but are there other problems? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
We want a big, heavy, piston 762 AR, but we want it small, compact, lightweight, and be able to meet requirements of female soldiers. We also already have a 762 rifle, the SCAR, but we're not going to go with that. We're now going to masturbate over the choices and spend billions of dollars, only to inexplicably go with Sig. Because reasons. The SCAR is not a good battle rifle. Tons of issues. I for one am glad it wouldn't be adopted. So in a way I guess you are right it is reasons- good ones. 1. Stocks like you mentioned 2. Magazine base plate likes to come off. This may have been fixed though. 3. The big one in my mind is the barrel twist rate. It's 1/12 that only good for 147gr rounds. I've heard of people having a lot of issues with anything heavier. Why have a long range rifle that can't shoot long range ammunition? |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:07:41 PM EDT
[#14]
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Why don't they just issue SCARs or .308 AR's for troops fighting in those situations? 6.5 LSAT GPMG sounds even better. Pants-on-head retards still get to make fun of people that think that .308 general-issue rifles are a good idea. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:07:41 PM EDT
[#15]
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Perfect caliber. Perfect rifle. Shoots flat, mild recoil, more punch. What else do they want? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Isn't this why 6.8 SPC was created? 
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:08:02 PM EDT
[#16]
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Does anyone know if a 240 Bravo can area fire with any kind of accuracy at 1000 meters? |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:08:07 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Um someone else probably knows more but the ones i can think of off hand are 1. Stocks like you mentioned 2. Magazine base plate likes to come off. This may have been fixed though. 3. The big one in my mind is the barrel twist rate. It's 1/12 that only good for 147gr rounds. I've heard of people having a lot of issues with anything heavier. Why have a long range rifle that can't shoot long range ammunition? |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:09:01 PM EDT
[#18]
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Out of curiosity what are the issues with the SCAR? I know the stocks often break, but are there other problems? Charging handle shears A reciprocating charging handle Weird piston/ barrel harmonics And so on... |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:09:10 PM EDT
[#19]
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Irony is that when nations switched to 5.56 average scores at 300 m went up. A 5.56 using say, 77gr bullets and ACOG would do much more for long range accuracy than any 7.62. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Or just teach them how to shoot what they have...  A 5.56 using say, 77gr bullets and ACOG would do much more for long range accuracy than any 7.62. But changing bullet weight, caliber, optics, whatever isn't going to have much of an impact past 300 yards unless there's a marksmanship overhaul. Take back that "Infantry half K" as the old article stated. Maybe, you know.... add a few weeks of basic fundamentals trained by a cadre of staff who's sole job it is, is to teach the fundamentals to new troops and get them shooting accurately closer to the edge of the weapons potential, vs just the average engagement range. Maybe 500 meters or so, where fundamentals and sight settings or scope drops really come into play. A plan so crazy it might just work. 
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:10:20 PM EDT
[#20]
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Does HK pay you to share their propaganda? |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:10:35 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Powerful, proven cartridge, with even more might and vigor when tip of bullet is painted black. Successfully used by millions. Innovative enbloc clips weigh less than box magazines, open new possibilities for Magpul. Stock made of renewable material. Designed by Canadian Kaybecker, so is obviously friendly to minorities real and percieved, and was mindful of his white privilege. M1 Garand, your time has come. Again. http://www.gunsandammo.com/files/2016/04/battle-rifle-m1-garand-3.jpg .30-06 was outdated when the M1 came in, existing supply dictated staying with that round. I'd like to have more than 6 rounds with a loud notice to everyone around that I'm in a reload. It would be cool if we supply our troops with a stock that works well in humid, "jungleish" theaters. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:10:48 PM EDT
[#22]
At last, the T48 can be selected like it should have been in the first place!
But yeah, tail wagging the dog and all. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:10:58 PM EDT
[#23]
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The article gave me the impression they want a 7.62 battle rifle for now, and then will buy new ammo and barrels and use the 7.62 battle rifle mags and receivers for the 6.5 rounds . |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:10:58 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Powerful, proven cartridge, with even more might and vigor when tip of bullet is painted black. Successfully used by millions. Innovative enbloc clips weigh less than box magazines, open new possibilities for Magpul. Stock made of renewable material. Designed by Canadian Kaybecker, so is obviously friendly to minorities real and percieved, and was mindful of his white privilege. M1 Garand, your time has come. Again. http://www.gunsandammo.com/files/2016/04/battle-rifle-m1-garand-3.jpg |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:11:48 PM EDT
[#25]
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sounds like someone is trying to justify their job. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:12:08 PM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:13:06 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Um someone else probably knows more but the ones i can think of off hand are 1. Stocks like you mentioned 2. Magazine base plate likes to come off. This may have been fixed though. 3. The big one in my mind is the barrel twist rate. It's 1/12 that only good for 147gr rounds. I've heard of people having a lot of issues with anything heavier. Why have a long range rifle that can't shoot long range ammunition? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Um someone else probably knows more but the ones i can think of off hand are 1. Stocks like you mentioned 2. Magazine base plate likes to come off. This may have been fixed though. 3. The big one in my mind is the barrel twist rate. It's 1/12 that only good for 147gr rounds. I've heard of people having a lot of issues with anything heavier. Why have a long range rifle that can't shoot long range ammunition? Quoted:
Quoted:
Out of curiosity what are the issues with the SCAR? I know the stocks often break, but are there other problems? Charging handle shears A reciprocating charging handle Weird piston/ barrel harmonics And so on... |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:13:41 PM EDT
[#28]
The desert fighting did it. Longer engagement distances.
6.5G is the answer. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:15:07 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The desert fighting did it. Longer engagement distances. 6.5G is the answer. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:15:25 PM EDT
[#30]
7.62 for wholesale issue is a stupid idea. One of the worst I've heard in a long time.
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:15:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Instead of destroying or giving away M-14 rifles during the 70's and 80's someone should have been working on modifications to make the rifle more user friendly for our troops. A better mounting system for optics, an adjustable stock, composite magazines etc. Oh Hell No! The military wants to spend billions on some shiny new toy that will take decades to develop and by then will want to scrap it for some kind of plasma rifle in the 40 watt range. Pissing our tax money away has become a art form for the military. The M-14 was a dog. The Italinan BM-59 was essentially the same, minus the drama and cost. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:16:36 PM EDT
[#32]
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I'd go with the AR-10 type system, but that's just me. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:16:41 PM EDT
[#33]
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At last, the T48 can be selected like it should have been in the first place! If you want to talk about what should have been done in the post-war "first place", neck the .30 Carbine round down to .22-.24 and issue everybody M2s, keep the Garands for DMRs, and wait for Stoner to finish the AR15. The whole "battle rifle" concept was really, really dumb. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:16:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The desert fighting did it. Longer engagement distances. 6.5G is the answer. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:17:52 PM EDT
[#35]
We had it right in 1895. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:18:39 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does anyone know if a 240 Bravo can area fire with any kind of accuracy at 1000 meters? |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:19:12 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is an Army replacing 5.56, 7.62 X 39, 7.62 X 54r, and 7.92 X57 with the 6.5G as their GPC Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The desert fighting did it. Longer engagement distances. 6.5G is the answer. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:19:19 PM EDT
[#38]
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Chambered in .30-06 to burn up WW1 surplus, had been designed in a different caliber as a result of WW1's showing that MG's and tactics beat service rifles with big bullets that mostly just chew up dirt. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:19:24 PM EDT
[#39]
If I were in charge I'd choose .222 Remington Magnum, increase the shoulder angle and leade just a bit and raise the pressure slightly.
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:20:12 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/leehandbookpic.jpg We had it right in 1895. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:20:36 PM EDT
[#41]
FPNI
How the fuck is that the absolute rule of the universe around here. The FPNI every fucking time. Like the first person to read a thread is bestowed with fucking magical powers to just /thread the thing closed? I swear there is a force in nature we don't know about. Absolutely fucking fascinating to me. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:20:53 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love my Garands, but: .30-06 was outdated when the M1 came in, existing supply dictated staying with that round. I'd like to have more than 6 rounds with a loud notice to everyone around that I'm in a reload. It would be cool if we supply our troops with a stock that works well in humid, "jungleish" theaters. ETA: enbloc clips hold 8 rounds. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:21:39 PM EDT
[#43]
Hey, how about .45-70?
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:22:04 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you even Garand bro? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I love my Garands, but: .30-06 was outdated when the M1 came in, existing supply dictated staying with that round. I'd like to have more than 6 rounds with a loud notice to everyone around that I'm in a reload. It would be cool if we supply our troops with a stock that works well in humid, "jungleish" theaters. 
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:25:00 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does anyone know if a 240 Bravo can area fire with any kind of accuracy at 1000 meters? |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:25:13 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The desert fighting did it. Longer engagement distances. 6.5G is the answer. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:25:47 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does anyone know if a 240 Bravo can area fire with any kind of accuracy at 1000 meters? It sure can. I never had a problem pegging the 800m targets on my initial burst at the qual range (we had M145s even way back then). Never shot at anything that far away on a deployment though. Shit tended to either be 300m or in or outside the range of small arms altogether. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:26:48 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Perfect caliber. Perfect rifle. Shoots flat, mild recoil, more punch. What else do they want? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Isn't this why 6.8 SPC was created? range. typically 300 yards and under. 5.56 77 gr will help with accuracy and punch over the 55 or 62 gr at the longer range. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:28:57 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And that Army doesn't do much desert fighting. |
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Posted: 4/5/2017 3:29:29 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The desert fighting did it. Longer engagement distances. 6.5G is the answer. Compared to going to a 7.62x51 general issue weapon though, 6.5G is fucking genius. |
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