#3: We find copies of ancient Biblical parchments. We can reconstruct copies of the copies that Paul wrote from nearly 2000 years ago. What variance is there in the earliest fragments? The fact you don't know this kind of shows you never really cared to research stuff as much as you claim to. We have tens of thousands of fragments and parchments that pre-date the stuff your throwing at the Bible about Monarch power grabs.

You say you've "discussed with several pastors". Either they are idiots, or you are. And I am not sure which is which. The fact you don't have a notion of what textrual criticism is, despite the allegations you throw at Christianity is boggling. Its like you read a few edgy posts on /r/Atheism and figured that was enough. There's an ENTIRE discipline regarding Biblical parchments that you've failed to address at all, because you threw the baby out with the bathwater.

The simplest take is that the world is Lucifer's to do with as he will, as backed by the repeated references to the "prince of this world" and the offer to Jesus Christ to be king of everything he saw if he merely bowed to Lucifer during the last temptation. Lucifer of course is a liar, so it's up to you to figure out which reading you like the best, but optimistically, including Job, the idea is that Lucifer has a lot of power over the world, so much so that it's a fallen world, but he can't touch our souls unless we give them to him. There's also hints that there's less that lucifer can do to truly faithful followers, with Job being essentially sketched out as a worst case scenario where God withdraws most of the unspoken protections believers in God have; and yet he is made whole and better than he was, as the story goes.

There's an inflexibility a lot of people have to "god' being as powerful as they can possibly imagine, and yet also insisting if he's THAT powerful that a mere human can judge who and why wields those powers that are literally beyond understanding. Even a smaller view of god's knowledge and power still renders him beyond human reckoning. Which is very confusing why people want him to be a powerful as possible and yet completely understandable. If I could completely understand someone they'd be unworthy of the smaller view of the powers I believe, not to mention literally unlimited powers.

It's also possible that your definition of "improvement" bakes in false assumptions.

Sola Scriptura claims another victim

Lord Have Mercy

*stamps foot*

But if there's more to it than what's written I can't know it all and if I can't know it all it's stupid! I should be able to study and say everyone else is stupid and I hold the one truth!

If traditions, findings, and other things are found outside the bible there isn't a quick or easy way to refute it or to anoint myself king who knows all and everyone else is stupid!

Swing and a miss.

Orthodox Christian

I left traditional "christianity" several years ago, because a Zoroastrian.

Well I won't disagree with that at all, I guess I could have phrased it better but my point was that it isn't true to say you won't understand the Bible without being saved.

Go on, don't leave the story hanging.

Because a Zoroastrian what? I thought they were wiped out in Zanzibar and with the Iranian Revolution.

For most of its history Christianity has been explicitly supercessionist, most of your argument is based on treating contemporary American Evangelical Protestant Pastor Jim theology as the rule, which -to put this as charitably as I can- is about one step up from young earth creationism.

Thank God that He has mercy on whom he has mercy.  Election and regeneration are things that never change.

Hey what's a little unleavened bread between friends?

Plus, hermeneutics is a thing

Wait, does that mean that when Jews rejected Jesus, the biblical reading is they rejected God and his covenant with them was broken?

Acts 4:10-12


So if true, that means those who don't follow Jesus aren't saved regardless of bloodlines or preexisting stuff??? But that's so weird, clearly the easy to read bible passages must be wrong.

Raised in Christianity. One parent chose to expose us to other "versions" than our home church synod. There is a lot of variation out there.

However in regard to the bible, despite being taught it for my school age years I never got the full measure of the book until I read it as such, a book. Made a different impression than what those in charge want you to believe.

What one also needs to acknowledge and remember is that while it may be word of God, it was written by men who had an agenda to sell. Just like all religious tomes. Take from it/them what you will.

I'll take that agenda over mindless unlimited sugar carbohydrates are part of what I should be consuming all the time or Marxism. Even the shittiest versions are better than the best of those agendas that are peddled today.

Ohhh, wow! You read through the Bible yourself and found contradictions that no one has ever discovered over the last couple thousand years! You must have quite an intellect!

You do realize that people far smarter than you have literally debated and addressed all of these issues over the last couple millennia. Right?

So did your reading comprehension ability just exceed all of theirs ? That’s one possibility. The other possibility is that you are a fucking dumbass who doesn’t understand basic biblical literacy. But I’m sure the latter isn’t it. Certainly it’s more likely that you’ve found superficial problems in the Bible that no one else did over the last couple thousand years.

Certainly you’re a deeply thoughtful soul. Christianity desperately needs your sorry, uneducated, illiterate ass-mouth to tell us how to reconcile these deep, thoughtful contradictions of the faith. Please help us, fuck stick, in ways that aquinas, Paul, and Augustine weren’t smart enough to understand.

A vengeful God would do something like that, make others suffer to improve someone else.  The huge non-denominal churches that I have attended all play songs about how great and loving God is, how there is no reason to worry because God is on your side.  They play up the loving God.  Is that type of God that will allow a child to suffer and die so others can improve or does that sound like the old testament God that told Abraham to kill his son as a test?

You're really trying to make the assertion that someone else's reality and altered word is the true word?

You realize that the Jewish bible predate the christian one right?   That is like someone coming into your house ,   hanging you up by a rope and then they get to tell everyone else you did a suicide.

The Christian bible was edited much later than the Jewish one and conveniently paints them as being the losers / suckers.
So you're dismissing the word of the true chosen people.  gods people.

You can believe anything you want, but its empirically true that the original founders of your "God" and gods people are the Jews.   And they still maintain that you're following the false messiah.

In a biblical, good society you'd be horsewhipped in the public square for your heresy. At the very least.

The Jewish religion as practiced is younger than Christianity.
We all make the assertion someone else's reality is true if it's not our original idea. When I say calculus is true, I'm asserting Newton's reality and altered word. When I quote relativity I do the same for Einstein; when I talk OODA I'm asserting Boyd's.

The historical continuity of the current Hebraic people today, and the original Israelites is subject to a lot of fascinating speculation including the British Israelite movement that's too much to get into here.

Your chosen false god of a people over God shows how many lies you spew biliously while trying to also assert the atheist lies out the other side of your mouth. You have nothing but poison and falsehood and I pray for your repentance and repudiation or quick end of heresy by whatever means god appoints, and I shall smile.

Your lies and pharasiacal bulllshit meet with not one second of consideration here blasphemer. I know what Abracadabra means... and I reject your magic.

It's called survivorship bias.

We also have a word for the Jews that followed Christ and accepted him as the Messiah, it's "Christian."

If we exclude all the Jews who converted to Christianity throughout history and the otherwise messianic Jews, it shouldn't be a shocker that the remaining Jews definitionally rejected Christianity.  Rejecting new revelation is a huge part of the Jewish faith anyway.  The Sadducees did it too, and there wasn't a single prophet that was accepted without much wailing and gnashing of teeth.  It's really only fitting that the messiah would take even longer to accept, so whatever.  Christianity wasn't the first split, just the biggest, and your argument from authority cannot possibly be sincere.  When's the last time an institutional authority was right about anything controversial?  It happens, but it's hardly the rule.

*fog machine*
*light show*
*whammy bar guitar riff*

Pastor Jim Delenda Est

You guys are sounding very anti-semitic here.   Trying to put forward some alternative history where the Jewish people were not gods chosen people and that they rejected the false messiah of "Jesus"

It is true that he was the false messiah and why he was shunned and ultimately met his fate.  You will know this if you talk to any Rabbi.
Go into a synagogue and talk with gods direct and divine pathway to heaven, the Rabbi and he will set you straight about the false messiah.  That is how you can find out the truth of this matter.

The Jewish people do not defend against this openly because they do not proselytize and recruit so much like the Christians do, trying to recruit everyone they meet.
The Jewish people already know they are gods chosen people and are on the correct path.

Speak to a Rabbi and you'll find this all out.

I'm trusting  gods chosen people for the truth.   The Jewish people.

So are what you saying is that as long as they're Jewish, no matter what they believe, including rejecting the Son of God, they are saved because of who they are- because of their bloodlines rather than any covenant including the need to believe in and follow god's will?

He's trolling.  Check out the post [on page 11] where he craps all over the Jewish faith too, because of a meme that told him about a conflict of interests over eating sacrificed food.

I'll let him defend it.

From what I understand, the building of the 3rd temple is INCREDIBLY important to  religiously observant Jews because the entire basis of the religion was the sacrifice every Shabbat, and since the sacrifice MUST be made ONLY at the temple, since the destruction by the Romans the original and longest lived part of continuity in actual observant Jewish Religion was broken. That's my incomplete understanding, but surely he can answer with all his learned wisdom.

Yes.  
According to gods chosen whom he speaks to directly,  you've been deceived by the great deceiver. Jesus the false messiah.

Here is some very good documentation from a Rabbi for you to study.


You can find the original source here.

Good luck.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/false-messiahs-in-judaism/

https://www.thepullrequest.com/p/the-holy-church-of-christ-without

So, where in the Bible is drug use condoned?

I didn't. I replied to a post and that was it. You reacted, and than we windmilled. How does my saying what I did have to mean I had something specific in mind that I was looking for a discussion about? Do not grok.



Uh .... ok?

Your point? Does that somehow change the facts about the process that exist regardless of what You, myself, or him thinks about it? If he wants to interact more about that, the ball's in his court to do with as he wants.

i

So repress the females basically to the point of islam? Male only voices can be heard? Essentially continue slavery? So trade freedom for all for the sugar daddy carbo BS for suppression of the opposition voice? How very male centered christian view of yours. Fuck the women and any opposing viewpoint. Christ would love your totalitarianism. What the religion is all about. Submit or suffer for





I'll look in the sun up morning for the excuses and bs. Time to sleep this July 4th.

Wew, someone was drinking tonight. That hangover you have reading this must be brutal, and I won't add to it by replying to the garbled nonsense.

Struck a nerve did he?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Attached File

Odin promised to eliminate ice giants.

Jesus promised to eliminate sin.






Seen any ice giants recently?

Your life, your rules.

Would you really be happy in a world without Thots, microwaveable lava cakes, free porn, and interest and 401ks?

Those are literally all I live for. So no. Not even a little bit.

If you'll excuse me I need to go develop the "lava cake technique", perhaps a meme will be forthcoming. Please note, if successful a business related to the revolutionary microwaved sexfoodtoy industry will be available for IPO in 3-6 months.

I'm glad I have another man of wealth and taste here.

Microwaveable lava cakes were literally my coup de grace for impressing girls in college by being thoughtful enough I could even treat them to a cooked dessert.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a hardship if Jesus took them from me, just that it is a sacrifice that I would make I'm not sure everyone would.

Just what I thought, all sophistry and no substance, typical...

Yes! you can add psychotic fairy tales to the list too...

You hit the nail on the head on the leadership I have experienced.  I cant get what I view as important questions answered but the offering plate comes around multiple times on Sunday.  I understand we are all human, dealing with translations from languages we dont understand, written by people with vastly different understanding of how the world works, and lacking god's point of view, but I am trying to understand the order things worked, and the character of god because reading some of the stuff done is pretty messed up.




Unfortunately that seems to be the rule more than not these days.  My greatest frustrations with most churches being they wont live the words that are written, you see it more and more these days that churches waffle on what is clear sins if you are Christian.  I am not a Biblical scholar, just a guy reading the words and trying to understand what it means to the best of my ability.  Same as I have done for other major religious texts.  I just have not had anyone give answers that made some sort of sense.




Creation of man on the sixth day I have heard how it could cover Adam and Eve being the first, but I miss in the time line how other tribes/civilizations grew up around the area Adam and Even and their children settled after leaving the garden.  The other men and women created as mentioned before Adam and Eve in Genesis its clear they are created "in god's image" no mention of materials like Adam and Eve.  This isnt particularly controversial since it makes no mention of materials used to create the different animals, but I do find it interesting they use image here.  This goes back to what Elohim really means as I mention below, because different races of men all look different from each other, especially if you include creations like Neanderthals that look very different in this.  

This is where I get hung up.  Could other deities created different races of man?  It seems possible, but the way the book is written gives little detail beyond the basics occurring.  A lot can hinge just on that one little word.  I've tried to read as old of materials as I can find because I think materials closer to the original author might be more accurate.  Translation though is an issue for me admittedly, I dont speak these languages, but with the people in the institutions supposed to be educated in this its pushed me this far to find answers where I can.  The Hebrew definition of Eloheim from what I have researched can mean single all powerful god, or it can mean a plural or pantheon of gods.  The translations and context make it difficult to accurately indicate who did what in Genesis.






The puzzle as I understand it, Adam and Eve were Yahweh's chosen people in human kind.  The people that existed outside Eden were neither knew of his commands and the Bible is silent on if they enjoyed any protection from Yahweh.  I am forced to make an educated guess that heathen mankind grew outside Eden while Adam and Eve did their thing based on texts where decedents of Adam and Eve interact with people from these tribes/communities.  

The heathen either enjoyed no protections from a god they knew nothing of, and the punishment was merely removing the special favors granted by god to his chosen people, or god punished all of these people for the transgression of Adam and Eve over commands they never knew existed.  The latter I find abhorrent.



Slave is the wrong word, I am not trying to cause insult.  I can understand A&E having no need for knowledge or life because god is providing that, and that having broken the command not to eat what amounts to fruits of the gods, god removes those protections as part of the penalty.  Where I struggle with this is other areas I have come to accept as Devine encouragement, stuff like cancer and bad things happening to people pushing us into a positive direction for us to solve these issues.  None of that happens if A&E dont break the command, so was that slated by fate to happen, the whole thing, what does the world look like if heathen man enjoyed these protections too?  How fast would over population become an issue?  This lends more credence that only A&E enjoyed the protections for their service.

Again the Bible here just does not get into very many details, and leaves me to question things.  Yes an argument can be made that its not my place to question, but that just feels like a smokescreen to me like being told to pray more.  God is not concerned with my trivial questions, and admittedly a big part of that is my desire to not interact with an entity that has treated others questionably.  Just like I dont go out of my way to talk with the Lucifer.  

The best I can say right now is my faith rests in natural law as I figure things out.  God/Gods creation, the way things work, the cycles of live and death, the seasons, these are all tangibles I understand and can accept.  Maybe I'm broken but I need more than blind faith.  If I'm wrong, at least I admired and honored the creation and my non evil fellow humans for whatever that's worth.


My thoughts on that are an all knowing are god would have created time as it is mentioned in Genesis.  He exists outside it and so can see the path that decisions will lead.  I dont think it would be difficult to see how devastating a rejected offering would be to someone that knows god on a personal level.  This is an area I look to the character of the deity to see if this is something I want to honor.  Take Yahweh out and slap Baal or another deity in the same situation, what do you conclude about the decisions of the deity and their actions.  I would be interested to see what you have on animals being more valuable because they were harder work.  From what I read the whole thing comes down to blood.  The animals and the produce are both god's works so I do find it curious one is more valuable than another.  Of course a god can have a preference, again I'm just trying to understand the character of the deity in these stories.



I mention that not as an ah ha got you BS line, but as an acceptance that what may have been written has been altered for ulterior motives.  Things like Christian holidays that seem to have pagan beginnings/history are what gives me caution specifically here.  It seems like these were done to help Christianity permeate pagan cultures from what I have read.  For me it means dont follow this blindly until you have some sort of idea what you are getting into.  I am open to reading them, I am trying to understand all of this to the best of my ability.  As you allude to lies and works of the devil are in more places than the truth.  It would be my hope that something in us would help guide us from the wrong path, that the wrong path is conscience choice you make knowing its wrong.  If I know up front the texts are sketchy, I only look to them more for their content, if it answers questions I have in the more accepted texts, that sort of thing.  I doubt a single reading is going to have impact, if its like the Bible I find myself jumping around a bit or reading or listening to a scholar explain things to understand context more fully.  Again, not a pro, just a guy trying to figure things out that thinks it disrespectful to call yourself something you dont try to live up to the standard.  DM me the list and I will start on them after I finish my current books.



Good stuff to research here.  This looks like it might contain answers or guidance on some of the questions I have above.  Thank you.

What little I could read before bed contained this:  "Pelagianism contends that humans are born neutral towards sin and that there is no such thing as an inherited sin nature. The Bible says people are born into sin (Psalm 51:5; Romans 3:10–18) and considered dead in their transgressions because of disobedience to God (Ephesians 2:1). Scripture affirms the presence of a sinful nature that is at work in humans before salvation:

“The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins” (Romans 8:3, NLT)."

It seems to indicate Jesus's sacrifice broke the chain of original sin, but not the concept that humans can only live without sin with god's grace.  Any more on this?





Maybe its the priests I have spoken to on the this particular issue.  My thoughts on joining a religion are you have to be honest about trying to do best to live up to the standard, and this is an area I frankly would be lying to god and everyone else with what I was told from the several churches I have been to.  The places I have been seem to almost encourage asking for forgiveness as the status quo than setting the standard for the flock to follow.  I'm not playing around here, there are pressures in my life over this.  My Mom's greatest disappointment, and her eyes greatest failure is that I am not Christian, she is probably going to pass soon with her health the way it is.  She thinks she will never see me again with the path I'm on, but IMO following blindly is just as dangerous as reading everything about it.  I hope this gives you a better understanding of where I am coming from.

Hoping I didnt fudge the format up, I'm dead tired.  I have to be up in a couple hours, I will pick this up tomorrow.  Thank you again for new areas to investigate.

Score one for the Allfather :)

A couple quick points here before I pick up the rest tomorrow and have to be meaty.
What have you done to change this dynamic? Did you stand up and say that the preacher is not trying to lead, but trying to collect money? Did you move your family- you don't sound like a singular individual here- from church?

And, being honest, if you DID find a good church, with a pastor who preached women, in fact, are not suited for leadership of the church nor even at home- would your wife have let you stay or would she have made you move? Much of the church's weakness, frankly, has to do with the weakness of men and not standing on principle and conviction. A priest and pastor can only stand so long before they are forced by their congregation to change. I don't let them off, and currently am unchurched myself, but am going to rectify this.

I do know that many family men do NOT take the biblical instruction of their family seriously and allow their wives. The pullback of men from churches has led to women dominating churches and selection of such, and so the churches naturally cater to women's interests rather than mens, with predictable results.

If you're not willing to visit at LEAST 6 churches, ask hard questions of the priests and pastors- ones meant to make them, and to some degree you uncomfortable- you're not serious about faith and truth. You're a squish who deserves the heretical teachings because the spirit does not move within you, and you cannot be brought. I say these words as encouragement that there should be movement if it is significant, and not merely social occasion. Too many men want things to be good and strong for them WITHOUT being strong and determined themselves. This is doomed to failure. To be lead by the strong, you first must BE strong- that is the ONLY way you will find TRUE strength that can actually LEAD strong men. If you're not willing to go to a place that makes normal people uncomfortable, you're engaged in social masturbation, not true Christanity. If you would not fight social opprobrium and a resistant or hostile spouse to biblically sound teaching- if her objections are "feelings" or "not welcome" or other such objections- you have an answer for why churches have universally folded to heresy and why you are unworthy of the True Word of God.

As a place to start, I'd recommend reading C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity and Men Without Chests. Then you can look into the Christian Apologetics, William Lane Craig, and then follow from there. You have to know what you're looking for to find it these days, and the glory is you can- but you must choose to. This requires study on your part. Sucks, but if you don't like it, give up and just go "spiritual but not religious."

Just relaying what priests and pastors have said over the years.

Others have said works of the devil, vengeance on sinners, but that one made the most sense to me.

I'm on the outside looking at the mess between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.  At this point I feel comfortable saying I think whoever put this rock together did something special.

That's great they have it, it should give great power to his work.  As far as I know we dont have the originals for most of the Bible and that gives me concern.

I read the Prince, and it goes in depth into how a monarch should use religion to unify his kingdom and bind his people to him.  Do you think Machiavelli the only one to point this out?  It's also pretty clear attempts were made to usurp traditional pagan holidays with Christian celebrations throughout Europe in an effort to bind these communities to the new Christian rulers.  The monarchs and the Church held great sway over the population for a long time where a lot of not so nice stuff was done.  I'm not saying the whole text is garbage, I'm saying you need open eyes to ensure you dont blindly follow lies.

I do have a Wife and kids.  My experiences with different churches predates my family.

My Wife is atheist from well before I met her.  She'd have no issues we me going or taking the kids to church, she just does not believe in gods.

I've been to four or five different churches over about ten years, mostly Episcopalian, and Baptist as that was what was closest, and one other sect I forget what it was as I was younger with my parents that was abject garbage.  Frankly I believe its the role of the priest or pastor to set a clear standard that makes me uncomfortable, but instead the people I talked to didnt want to really put the standard out there to hold people accountable for their actions.  All of it was disappointing and lead me to the conclusion to study on my own.  I've been reading up on many different religions for the last decade or so on my own.

My issue churches mostly rests with frustration over not really finding a place that holds to the standard.  Two near me have announced they are pro gay marriage for example.  If I'm going out trying to hold the standard all week, I want a no bullshit fire pissing leader that is going to call me out if I slack or fuck up.  Instead they seemed more interested in just assuring me god forgives me.  The congregations mostly seemed clicky and irritated I was disturbing their usual.  None of them really had any interest in taking the message into the community.  I ended up deciding to just do my own reading ended up with questions that give me pause if I want to honor a god that has done what I view as some questionable things.  Most of the talks I had with people that should have answers either said I need to pray harder on it or implied I was a sinner for questioning god/the Bible.  When the book has warning after warning about works of the devil I figure god wouldnt mind some questions about things to make sure I am starting on the right path and that's why I'm here.

I've noted the books, thank you.

The "old" testament was grafted onto the gospels in 1550 at the council of Trent.