OP, your topic announces what you already decided to do, and you then proceeded to list a page full page of reasoning and excuses why you're doing it. Thanks for the in depth declaration you have made. It's not much different then those others here who go out of their way to make anti-god and religious posts against believers. You don't need my approval or anybody else's for how you think. The country is Godless enough already and it shows, so you will be in good company. God Bless you in your decision, and have a nice journey.

Your original post on the subject focused on differences between English translations, as if we no longer have any Hebrew or Greek to refer back to.  That was misleading at the very least, and why I characterized your messaging as a telephone game version of gossip.  I didn't mean to insult you personally though; I'm responding to your post, not your character.

Anyway, you act as though only modern-day Jews can claim Jewish interpretations of Jewish texts, yet the early Christians themselves were mostly Jews themselves, who eventually adopted the Christian identity when it became clear the entrenched Jewish authorities were not going to budge.  If I'm judging motives and honesty, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the ones who stood to die for their beliefs, instead of the ones who stood to maintain power and influence.  You can trust whoever you want on the matter, and so can anyone else.  Pretending the early Christians were a bunch of hoodlum gentiles with no claim to Jewish text or understanding is plainly disingenuous and prejudicial though, and it smacks of a smear attack.  Yeah, one camp of Jews brought in a ton of gentile converts over time, while the other maintained a traditional Jewish identity.  What of it?  What happened later has no bearing on who did what with the text earlier.  That is to be judged based on the physical evidence and the incentives of the actors at the time.

Your brother may need your fellowship.

I haven’t read this whole thing and don’t intend to. People that say fuck God he did this to me don’t have the same view as I do. Life is a test of good and bad things. Some fail and some pass. Doesn’t matter if you’re rich or poor. My wife and I have been through a lot together and life isn’t all roses for us at this time and people don’t understand why we don’t complain and crying nonstop about it. It doesn’t change anything if we did.

My grandparents lost a son who was 20 yo ( I was 5 and remember it like it was yesterday) and I never once heard them complain about it. They also lost 2 grandsons, who were like brothers to me, and never complained. 6 years ago my grandparents lost another son to cancer and they never complained. My grandfather died and my grandmother never complained. My mother lost her parents a week apart and she doesn’t complain. No denouncing of God. The one thing they had was faith. Not bible thumping in your face, but faith. My mother’s brother has no faith and he’s a wreck about his parents and his son committed suicide which he doesn’t handle well. He never helped his son who had mental illness so maybe it’s guilt. My mother’s brother has no faith and he asked me how my father’s parents handled all the death and hardship because they’ve “been through hell”. Faith.

Some people get it, some people don’t.

I wish to opt out of the whole heaven-hell binary choice. If I have true freedom, let me go.

Well, of course they are not going to complain. If they hold it against God they will be punished. You have to love Big Brother God if you want to get into that big country club in the sky. That’s why no matter how bad things get, the response has to be, “thank you, Lord, may I have another?”

People also want to try and opt out of male-female.

You don't have that freedom either.

It's either justice, or mercy.

OP let me keep it pithy. You are going through a struggle with your faith. There are two forces at work in your head. One is evil and one is good. Choose wisely. Deep down you know which side to listen to.

This is what I mean.

I’m an atheist, when I see you guys band together to help someone out, it’s cool.

I know where our OP is coming from, I have my reasons for my beliefs.

What’s really interesting, is I share many of the same views as religious persons, I just don’t believe in religion.
What I don’t share are the socialist self centered anti-religious views that a lot of atheist have.

I’ll support any person’s right to worship and will stand by their side to protect it.

One doesn’t need to be a believer in religion to value it’s importance for others.

OP, you’ll figure out where you need to be as a person.
Just find positive people who are willing to share their views with you, avoid the ones that want to judge yah.

Whatever you decide, I got dibs on you guns and ammo.

So, if I’m a good boy and I’m allowed entry into heaven at that point I could say no thanks I’m just going to do my own thing. Shouldn’t a loving god grant me that?

I’m not a Christian or an Atheist, but still hold similar views, which is why I replied to Whiskers. Despite the fact many here would call me a Satanist, I still wish no ill on anyone and see things such as Op’s post as being no different than any other post that expresses distress.  I think people have largely forgotten that we are all human.

I almost lost my faith and came back, questioning everything and apologetics helped save me. It is perfectly fine to question things, and people who tell you to have more faith are usually not competent or well versed. I would highly suggest reading I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist and watch frank turek, William lane craig debates. Also check out James tour he is one of the smartest men on the planet and makes a lot of sense. voddie baucham is good too. Here’s some videos that will help out dm me if you have any questions. https://youtu.be/G1XJ7DeR5fc https://youtu.be/QNGLZvtRoiU https://youtu.be/r4sP1E1Jd_Y https://youtu.be/SdEvXK91B58 https://youtu.be/P2OyptSajjM https://youtu.be/yQISdCWQhRg

The worst thing a person can do is even have a microscopic doubt that God exists and Jesus is not the Messiah.
It is the ultimate form of blasphemy.  As I matured as a Christian, I stopped debating(apologetics) the atheist or agnostic.  I have no time for the blasphemer.  Like you said, "Some people get it, some people don't."   I do not know you personally but I look forward to spending eternity in heaven with you and your family.

That's called Candy Mountain comrade.




You don't enter heaven for being a good boy. You enter heaven, though up to some interpretation and argument, by wanting and yearning for reconnection with god and Christ, your behavior itself merely being a reflection of wishing to reunite with God.

So don't worry, if you're a good boy and die and don't want to go to heaven you definitely aren't going to go.

Jesus himself preaches most won't be saved, and counsels that you shake the dust from your shoes of those who won't hear.

It makes me sad when I like someone and they won't listen and won't be saved. I don't want people I like to not be saved. I haz a sad when I contemplate it. But I do know most won't make the cut

Thus it should not be surprising that most VOCAL Christians you hear aren't good Christians.

That’s why I’m glad I naturally gravitated toward Reincarnation. Don’t have to dwell on the whole Heaven and Hell thing from all the different angles and Salvation is my own personal responsibility.

OP just figured out that priests are not supposed to teach sex ed to young boys with their cloths off

Nah, threads that bash Christianity or Christians usually go on and on here.  Site staff loves this stuff.  


@Macchina  your post reveals some serious misunderstandings and a lack of knowledge.  I'm sorry for you and your wife.  Until the moment you die, it's not too late.  So, I can't predict how things are going to turn out for you.  I'm wrapping up reading the Bible from Genesis to Maps myself and it's been amazing.  I'm so grateful.  (I've read much of it over my lifetime, but never cover to cover)

Do you have any STUDY Bibles?  I have a number of them and refer to them for clarification or answers from different theological perspectives.  There are also answers out there if you look for them. I'd recommend Ligonier Ministries as a starting point if you're still open to it.  Or Discover the Book Ministries, but he's a little heavy on the eschatology.  Ligonier even answers questions live through their app Mon - Sat. Haven't used it myself, but the resource is there.  Why don't you challenge them with your questions?  Please?

Maybe you believed. Maybe you were deceived.  Maybe your heart's been hardened.  Maybe it's not too late.  

Nobody comes to the Lord unless the Father calls him. Were you reading the Bible because you were seeking the Lord, or looking for reasons to reject the teachings of your parents and your childhood church, a reason to join your wife in her rejection instead of the conflict that would come from the marriage of a believer and unbeliever?  Just "thinking out loud".  

God's nature didn't change.  God never said to kill innocent people. Your whole viewpoint is distorted.  We are all guilty of sinning against God.  And the Canaanites the Lord said to destroy sacrificed their infant children to Baal/Moloch, burning them alive.  The women and children too?  We are all guilty of cosmic treason against God.  We have no claim on our mortal lives here. We can make no demands of God or tell God what is right or wrong. The creation is not master over the creator.

Jesus didn't change the rules.  He fulfilled the law.  No human is capable of keeping all the laws given to the Jews.  The point of the laws was to SHOW man just how fallen we are, how helpless we are, that we on our own cannot attain salvation. Our God is Holy, and we are sinners.  The first Adam brought condemnation upon us all.  The second Adam, Christ Jesus, made justification possible for all through his sinless life, and his sacrifice on the cross.  He was the ONE human in history who did NOT deserve punishment, he was the sacrificial lamb.  He even came into Jerusalem at the same time the families were bringing in their sheep to sacrifice.  He rode in on a donkey which is what a King would ride on when he came in peace (rather than a horse when coming in battle (he comes riding a white horse in the end when he comes to judge)... If you read the old testament and understood it, you'd see the consistency, you'd see the fulfillment of prophecy, the fulfillment of the law.  He led the sinless life so we can get credit for a sinless life through him.  He was blameless so we can be blameless through him.  Because God is just, he cannot let sin go unpunished.  There must be a punishment.  God so LOVED the world that he sent his only begotten son, in a sense stepping down from the Heavenly thrown HIMSELF, to bear the punishment in our stead.  

And did you say something about being upset God isn't speaking to you --- audibly?  That's been answered for centuries.  That ended with the apostles.  God's word is in the Bible now. And God DOES answer prayers.  He's answered mine numerous times.  He hears the prayers of those who love him, of his sheep, of those whom HE knows.  The prayers of those who hate him are an abomination to him.   (You recall coming across that while reading the Bible, because I do.)  

Regarding Gen 1 and 2.  Also answered.  You say it's not good enough.  Okay.  Maybe you got the wrong explanation.  Also, something to consider.  Genesis 1 and 2 were written thousands of years ago.  Don't you think somebody thousands of years ago, if all this was made up, would have noticed the "contradiction" that is so "obvious" and  --- corrected it instead of just letting it sit there like that for all this time?  No, they've left it.  Why?  The truth doesn't need to be corrected.  There's no contradiction to hide or correct.  If this were some made up story and there was this contradiction at the very beginning, they would have fixed it.

I think you said something about God breaking promises.  The Lord has kept his promises and been faithful despite all the times his people have turned away from him.  Christ was the fulfillment of many of these promises.  

You've read the Bible cover to cover.  I'm just about there.  Maybe the stark contrast in outcomes either says something about different reading comprehension abilities, or different hearts.  I don't know what God has in store for you, but I hope for the best for you and your family.

I know you have retorts to the points I've attempted to make here.  Ligonier would be a good place to take your ideas.

I’m indifferent toward the concept of heaven. Like I said in an earlier post, my motivation for believing when I was younger was simply to avoid Hell.

I think I would be fine with going to sleep and never waking up again - eternal rest - as that is the most likely outcome of all this anyway. A peaceful, dreamless sleep from which one never awakens. That’s not so bad.

Such proud.  Much rebellion.  

How about, "the Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away."?  

And as far as your other post about being "a good boy" goes,  I don't think we need to worry about THAT do we?

The other side will get you death, only Christ can bring you life. If you choose to fight as a life long failure, you will not only lose there, but you will lose here also. The period of God's grace runs shorter everyday. This shouldn't be a fight that anyone should be in subjection to. You know not what you do if you decide to continuously resist. GD is no place to post your religious woes. You just make your own condition of willful ignorance worse. Something not good for you.

Wow, a lot of people on here have totally different interpretations of the bible and of God and Jesus, yet they all think they're all going to the same heaven.

Read through this thread, hear all the different interpretations of the Bible, they all think they have it right.  Can everyone have a different interpretation and all be right?

Yes. Not clearly wrong or spurious motivated heresy, but good faith differences yes.

Convenient that you ignored, and failed to quote the second half of a jokingly made post @FlashMan-7K

super srs bizns.

And, for the record, we have a religion subforum.

Edit: added an @ for the person who likes to quote out of context.

I'm sure that what you want matters as the most important consideration for what comes after, whether it is God and Jesus as I believe, the Flying Spaghetti monster, entropy and heat death of the universe, surely one man's whims is the defining element to how the universe and the celestial operations and all creation is created. I can only envy someone whose mere whim will change creation at will because if not it's unfair.

It is my understanding that there are different denominations because God gave some different from one another because you and I are individuals and just may worship to some minor degree differently. Additionally, the Bible says that there is only One Spirit of the Most High God. Not two, seven, or fourteen like around here.

We see through a glass darkly. Anyone promising to explain the mystery of creation and the faith and understand Christianity is a vile heretic who spews bilious heresy.

I would like the churches of Christ to reunite simply so there is a strong enough front to battle what we know will come, and to honor the glory of Christ. However there's heresies like the Pelagian heresy which is just... no. And there's questions about apostolic succession and other things that are certainly not black and white heresy, and thus I can't believe the difference itself, or the side that understood incorrectly after study, gets the shaft for. being a fallible human. We're told by Christ we have grace, and grace is a pretty powerful thing if you're doing it in good faith.

@jkm  I've had a taste of pure evil.  And the seemingly boundless rage and hate felt toward us, God's creation, coming from the Devil himself.  Possibly the most terrifying revelation to me was that this very same evil dwells inside ME, presumably in my flesh, but I'm not entirely sure.    (Romans 7 perhaps explains some of this)

But that's not why I'm typing this.  When I glimpsed this pure evil, this hatred and rage that would atomize us out of existence if it could, it would rip us apart to a sub-atomic level if it could, I was ALSO made to understand, "God's love is greater."

As POWERFUL, as seemingly UNSTOPPABLE, IMMEASURABLE as the hatred for us is.  God's love is greater.  

And make no mistake.  The only thing protecting us is God.  Right now.  He's holding it all together.  He's restraining the Devil.  Satan would murder us all right now if God unleashed him.  There is an INCREDIBLE power out there right now that HAAAAATES us.  Be grateful that there's an even stronger power who loves us even more, and has defeated the Devil.

My point is that the evil you use as a reason NOT to believe in God is reason for ME to believe in the Devil of the Bible, the accuser, the rebel, the one who came into the Garden of Eden and started this mess.  And it would follow that, believing in the Devil of the Bible, I have reason to believe in the rest.

That isn’t up to me.

Or you either.

God never promised to save you or anyone else from hard times in life. He promised the opposite, that life would be rough.

There is a certain kind of preacher these days who says otherwise, that’s it’s God’s will for you to live well. If these are the people you are listening to, I can understand why you see things the way you do.

Being a “good boy” won’t get you there. You cannot be good enough. Neither can I, neither can anyone else.  

“A loving God” is not Santa Claus whose existence is for granting your wishes. Everyone ends up in one of two conditions. That’s a fact that is even more immutable than the fact that the sun rises in the east.

One does not have to be right about everything.

He only must be right about the most important thing.

Paul actually mentions being paid.  I have no problem with pastors and staff being paid, what's the sin is if they teach for the sake of dishonorable gain (Titus 1:11).  Prosperity/health wealth gospel.

I do hope dogs manage to make it by being good dogs. I'd like to see them again.

Unfortunately, it appears that no one ever properly explained to you what it means to say one goes to heaven vs goes to hell. I'll attempt to simplify it here so hopefully you will reconsider:

The afterlife only matters to spirits, or a person's soul. Your soul -- your very essence -- can spend eternity in the presence of God's love or absent the presence of God's love. If you're in the presence of God, you're in heaven. Absent God, you're in hell.

The purpose of life is to give our souls the opportunity to grow closer to God. This occurs when we face hardship and are forced to question and grow in our understanding. By default, as demonstrated by human history, it is natural for us to believe in God as a means of explaining why things happen. Thus, deliberately turning away from God and denying Him requires effort on our part. Suffering through life reveals what our souls are made of.

Here's the key: While you're alive, you're always in God's presence. Even with the hardship, pain, and suffering, you are with God. No human being alive knows what it means to live absent God's love. If you die, having rejected God, and are no longer in His presence, you will suffer far greater than you ever have on Earth. It's not eternal rest; it's eternal suffering.

In practice, people follow religion to avoid hell, but we should really be seeking God (a positive) instead of just trying to avoid the negative.

- A Catholic

I’ve met a few who came to faith in a similar way. IE I know the devil is real, therefore God is as well…at least He better be, because if the devil is real and God isn’t, we are screwed in 87 bajillion different ways with no recourse

It’s as good a path as any.

I not only don’t mind paying the pastor. I insist on it.

I want my pastor’s attention solely focused on his church. If he’s not being paid, he’s working the other 5-6 days a week for someone else out of necessity.

Dear Macchina,

If I am to understand your post correctly, you have decided to reject Christianity, as a religion, due to the moral and theological inconsistencies found in the Christian Bible.  Is that correct?  

If so, may I please be permitted to point out that the founder of Christianity was tried for blasphemy, found guilty, and crucified by the religious authorities of His own religious faith?  When you were reading the Christian gospels did you notice how unpopular Jesus of Nazareth was with the religious authorities?  Did you happen to notice what He had to say about them, and their behavior, and their attitudes towards others? Did he not find their theology, and moral attitudes, shot full of ethnic, religious, and cultural issues that he flatly condemned?  

Do you remember the specifics of what He claimed, or was claimed to have said, that resulted in the charges of blasphemy in the first place?  

Finally, do you remember reading how you would be able to recognize His followers?  It was, if I recall, "The World will know you are Mine by your love for one another".

Look at all the replies to your post on this bulletin board. What does that say about all these people, both known and unknown to you, who reacted to - and reached out to you - because you asked them to?  All of us keyboarding - on machines - via cyberspace: "Deus Ex Machina".

I recommend the following films:

Contact - with Jodie Foster
Little Boy - with Emily Watson
Peaceful Warrior - with Nick Nolte
The Thin Red Line - with Jim Caviezel
The Devil's Advocate - with Al Pacino

I also recommend a very short bit of literature:
The Speech of Red Jacket - you can Google it online at: History Matters - George Mason University  

Do you even Isaiah 53 bro?

There is a story of a Catholic Bishop who no longer believed in God. He went to the Pope and said “Holy Father, Holy Father, what am I too do? I no longer believe in God!” To which the Pope replied “Fake it.”

Even if you don’t have faith you should still practice and promote Christianity. It is one of the primary pillars upon which Western civilization was built. It has been fundamental in creating the social norms and virtues that have created a relatively peaceful and prosperous civilization beyond that in existence before it. It is therefore in all our self interests to practice and promote Christian faith even if we have no faith ourselves.

Low IQ people or those inclined to chaos cannot be compelled to adopt social norms or virtues through logic or the threat of corporeal punishments. Belief in the soul and Devine judgment is necessary to civilize such individuals and that belief must be held and promoted by as many people in society as possible. The fewer who promote such beliefs the more our civilization will crumble.

We stand on a precipice over looking a deep darkness. Now is not the time to waiver. You may be unable to see Christ now, but as long as you stand on the high ground of Christianity you can rest assured that you will find Christ.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure death has been responsible for more death than religion.

I take it you're Nondenomination?  

Those who blame Christianity for violence must believe that without it there would not have been violence. There are no perfect solutions in life, violence will always exist, but it would be impossible to deny that Christianity didn’t play a fundamental role in creating modern Western Civilization. A civilization far less brutal than others before it.

Sounds like the book of Job on some serious acid..

There have been countless thousands of gods through history, and there are thousands of versions of the particular god that you have fastened upon.

The odds of you having chosen the correct one - if there even is a correct one - are approximately zero.

My wife's faith got her through 21 years in prison. It isn't for everyone.

OP, I had the exact opposite experience. I was an atheist that came to believe in God. I would recommend that you read Thomas Aquinas. if you don't want to dive into his writings, there is a primer on the subject on Amazon called something like "Thomas Aquinas in 50 Pages"). Reading Aquinas' works was an eye-opener for me.

And not to pat myself on the back too hard, but I was a damned good atheist. I could out-argue any Christian and do so with tact and a gentleness that left them reeling. The problem was that I was simply wrong, and all the logic traps and well-crafted arguments didn't change that fact.

There's some really good Aristotlian logic based arguments for monotheism.

Aquinas is incredible. Even if you don't read him you should at least listen to others talk about him.