People keep stating this, but the truth is that CSA veterans are NOT counted as U.S. veterans "per law."

As much as you'd like it to be true - it's not.

The 1958 legislation that everyone is referring to here did NOT make Confederate soldiers U.S. veterans - nor did it pardon them. All it did was make CSA veterans eligible for the same VA benefits as Union soldiers were eligible for. Nowhere does it make mention of them being U.S. veterans. It certainly did not make them U.S. veterans.

From the same piece of legislation:

"A Confederate veteran should therefore be treated with the same honor and dignity of any other American veteran."

Note the distinction between "Confederate veteran" and "American veteran." There's a reason for that - they aren't U.S. veterans - they're Confederate veterans.

A Union soldier is considered both a Union veteran AND a U.S. veteran. They're given the honor of being "U.S." veterans. A Confederate veteran is only that - a Confederate veteran.

Only if the people doing the murdering are paid Leftist agitators and BLM types. Otherwise, standard rules and procedures apply.

So they were eligible for the same benefits as US veterans ?

What are the requirements for receiving VA benefits?

True.

History can be ugly at times.  But it is where the the lessons of the past are held and it reminds us of how we can avoid making some of the same mistakes, as well a the greatness that came from our nation and influenced the world.

Anyone who wants to erase history or its visible reminders is a fool.  Those visible reminders cause questions to be asked, people to read up, and lessons to be passed down.  Destroying that reminder is an act undermines the roots of nationhood, undermines the bonds you have as a group of people, and it erases the absolutely critical elements that form the pillars of your democracy.

We do own our history.  Warts and all.  We make no apologies for it whatsoever.

Yours is a relatively young nation.  You have precious little history of your path to nationhood as it is.  That doesn't make it any less significant though.  Some of the biggest aspects of your nation's formation as it stands today, and decisions around the emancipation of slaves which have had a hugely positive influence globally, not just in the US, are now having important reminders of that struggle deleted or disguised.

The removal of statues in itself, if it is to happen, needs to be done after careful consideration, with an eye on the lessons of history and an understanding of the narrative that carries the lesson of history.

What is troubling is that your leadership from the POTUS down to the local Sherriff's office is letting it happen without so much as a whimper, even to the point of turning a blind eye to blatant vandalism and criminal damage by politically motivated mob rule whose motivation is entirely dishonourable and naive.

I think their actions are delusional, despicable and downright dangerous, FWIW

There is a reason why Europeans have maintained the remnants of the Auschwitz concentration camp, and a reason why Adolf Hitler's image has not been erased from history, as painful as they are to bear witness to.   They are hugely important lessons from history and anyone attempting to delete them would be called a holocaust denier and serverly admonished.  They are physical reminders that something significant happened we should take heed of.

From the same piece of legislation:

"A Confederate veteran should therefore be treated with the same honor and dignity of any other American veteran."

Note the distinction between "Confederate veteran" and "American veteran." There's a reason for that - they aren't U.S. veterans - they're Confederate veterans.

We're already in a post-Constitutional country.  Have been for quite some time.

The Left has been after Jefferson for a while now so they can discredit the DoI.  In fact, I'd say the DoI has been discredited for a long, long time, too.  Probably longer then the Constitution.

Well said!

I was SHOCKED by the amount of Hitler and Nazi items I saw when I was in Germany.  Everyone I talked to about it was very clear that they were all kept as reminders to never allow a maniac like that in power again.

I'm surprised that hasn't already happened.

Good point. I was given certain veterans benefits due to my father's service related disability. No one in their right mind would consider that a declaration that I was now a US veteran.

So we only remember the parts of history that we agree with now? Hundreds of thousands of Americans died in the civil war. Would you have us just forget that? Completely whitewash the whole thing because it is undesirable to our new found sensibilities? History is made up of good and evil...we'd be wise to remember it all.

Arfcom road trip?

Before anyone uses your statements about Germany to support what is going on in the US right now, Germany does not tolerate the ideals of Neo-Nazis and others who take inspiration from their great national shame. Germany has learned from its past and recognizes dangerous ideologies for what they are, something that the far right in the US can't seem to do right now.

Were we to truly use Germany as an example, "Heritage not Hate" and the like would be plainly discussed as dog-whistles for those who would like to organize under some banner of exclusion.

Keep in mind, I am not arguing that we should restrict the first amendment, I'd just like to see some frank, factual discussion on the topic. People on this board are quick to label BLM as a hate group, but seem to turn a blind eye to some who are tangentially related ideologically.

So there are no white nationalist groups in Germany?   

They have people on the fringe just like us.    

North owned people too and fought the war to keep the south in. The north did not go to war to free slaves. Lincoln didn't give a shit about the issue of slavery.

Yes, the South left because of slavery. But the north didn't give a fuck about it. To the north and the Federal Government it was all about keeping the union whole so they would be a better economic power and not have a political rival on the border that would seek alliances with other rivals like those in Europe.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that they do not offer them a platform because there is a national consensus that they are retarded. Read my third sentence again.

Yeah I saw that........fucking douche bags.

Whoa..........there was a HUGE abolitionist movement in some northern states (Michigan was one), so among individual citizens slavery was most definitely hated and thought to be evil and should be outlawed entirely.

I agree that secession was the primary reason but slavery was a part of it also.

We don't need a bunch of Jim Crow era statutes to remember the civil war.  Those statutes honor those who fought to support a government premised on the rightness of slavery.  

I think you are reaching really hard for a distinction that is not there. It reads to me like they are making note that if you fought for the south you are to be treated the same as somebody who fought for the north. I don't think they are using the term "confederate" in the way you are trying to make it seem like they did. "Any other" implies that they are one and the same whether they are union or confederate.

I suspect that had a lot more to do with Confederate Veterans not wanting to be lumped in with U.S. veterans than any slight made towards them by the US Government.

People have to work to pay bills and ANTIFA's foodstamps.

I'm not saying you're stupid, but you definitely got bad luck when it comes to thinking.

CoC prevents me from speaking freely. But I will say fuck those ass holes! I hope every single one of them that can be identified has charges pressed against them.

Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, and Missouri all owned slaves and were Union States. Even with the formation of West Virginia, Senator John S. Carlile objected that Congress had no right to impose emancipation on West Virginia.

North didn't fight the war over Slavery. It simply used it as a reason after the war started.

No platforms at all?

• National Democratic Party of Germany, (Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands; abbreviated NPD) is a far-right German nationalist party formed in 1964. The NPD was founded in 1964 as a successor to the German Reich Party (German: Deutsche Reichspartei, DRP) and considers itself to be Germany's "only significant patriotic force." The leader of the NPD is Frank Franz.
• German People's Union, (Deutsche Volksunion; abbreviated DVU) was a German nationalist party formed in 1971 by Gerhard Frey. The DVU supports German ethnic nationalism, Pan-Germanism, Third Positionism, and Right-wing populism. The party ends up in 2011 by joining the National Democratic Party of Germany.

Look at how many seats they hold...

Isn't that cute.

This guy thinks the tens of thousands of individuals that participate in GD all think alike.

I know you know this but it goes without saying.

Because their handlers are trying to destroy the US. The people funding these activities know that eventually they will spark something off and parts of out population will get their hate on just like was done in Germany in the 30's or SA in more recent times. They know at a certain point the average white man will say screw this shit and fight. This is nothing more than the CCCP long game on US soil and it has been in the works for decades. We were warned over 30 years ago



Because we live the good life we put our heads in the sand. This is nothing more than death by 1000 cuts for our country. We need to start electing no apologies, strong backboned leaders at the local level to combat this BS. Honestly I think we have already slipped past the point of no return here.

Arrest them?  What a racist thought.  Please proceed to the nearest university for your reeducation courses.

How long before they removal the Memorial at the Capitol?



Or all the artificats at the Florida History Museum? 

So no official platforms for them?  

How many seats do the nazi parties hold here?

Stop acting like this shit only happens here and only in this timeline. 

Hint: It will still be happening when we're long gone.

Maybe.

But I promise you this, next it will be churches and US Mil memorials.

The Hungarians have an interesting take- they took down (most of) the really brazen communist/Workers stuff and put it on display in its own park. I highly recommend going there if you're ever near Budapest. The centerpiece is the remains of a Stalin statue:




Memento Park

Ok, that is different from what I thought you were saying.

Secession was the main reason...........no doubt about that IMHO.

But individually there were MANY people up North who hated slavery and that hatred was used later to amass more troops, etc., I assume.

I agree in principle.  You make some very valid points.

I wold like to perhaps expand on a couple of points for your consideration; Firstly

You guys seem to have an obsession with a bi-polar political spectrum which sits on a linear plane.   That is not really the way to view it as it simply becomes oppositional by design and in the wrong way. The media and the political elite sell it to you that way deliberately because it creates the division that gives them a purpose outside of that which was intended.

There is no "far right" and "far left" division. Which is why we see arguments about the Nazis being far left or far right. In reality were neither and both at the same time.

The political spectrum is more like a clock face that has the centres moderates at 12:00 and the lunatic extremists at 06:00.  At the 06:00 point and either side of it, the extremists become indistinguishable as either left or right.

This is the first lesson that many people, not just Americans, need to learn.  These people are extremists.  There is no other real definition. Their views, actions and desires are simply extreme and beyond the spectrum of what we would consider normal and rational behaviour that respects the rights of the individual.

It is extremists who stand against the principles of what a balanced, acceptable and democratic systems stands for.  Left and right is irrelevant once you descend into extremism as they are all cut form the same blood stained cloth and oppose any form of moderate left or right wing political view.

Secondly:

I don't think it is just Germany that can be used as an example though.  Most countries have adopted the approach of making their history visible and available to learn from, including your own.

The Confederate monuments are there as a testament and vivid reminder of what was at the time a massively destructive civil war in terms of the cost to human life, which pitted brother against brother and saw the hatred brew on the opposing sides.  

I oppose Nazis and Communists alike, but I take no issue with them remembering their deaden the way that I remember those who fought for my beliefs.  It is also a reminder to them that if they get froggy people will stand up to them and make sure the pain is spread a little more evenly than they might perhaps anticipate.

I think that is what bothers the extremists.

They are the ones who have chosen to brand anyone who doesn't agree with their ideology as subhuman and fit for nothing more than abuse and even threats of violence and death.  They are the new evil, the new nazis and the new communists.  They cannot accept the existence of any other reality than their own perceived version and have no interest in empathy for others, nor learning the lessons about why they are in the position they are in, and why Americans put Donald Trump in the Whitehouse.  They have been rejected, they cannot handle it, and they are doubling down on the very reasons why they were rejected in the first place.

It is as if it having these historical monuments is actually a reflection of what is happening right now, and the extremists that want to see these reminders erased do so because they don't want to be reminded of just how destructive their path of divisive identity politics is.

They are blinkered and power crazed, and nothing is off the table in terms of how they gain control, including terrorism, murder, and hit lists.

While there may be a lot of chest thumping and hot words on this forum in response to their antics, nobody here is prepared to throw the principles of your Constitution, or the democratic process that gives a fair voice to every American under the bus in order to oppose the dangerous elements.

You can be armed to the teeth, but we all know nobody is going to go out there with a rifle and achieve anything positive by attacking these extremists.  Hell, they actually want you to do it, and are actively provoking you into it because they want an extreme reaction they can use against you.

By the same token, you cannot passively expect the incumbent swamp dwellers to react to your passivity when the screeching snowflakes from the cult of the permanently offended and their masters at the head go Global Socialism hold the light on what they want the world to see, and they are waiting for you to fuck up and do something extreme so they can shine that light on you.

You guys have to take that light and shine it on the extremists and expose them for what they are, and to do that you have to end their control of the media, ensure you schools and colleges educate kids to think for themselves in a balanced way that considers the consequences in in the short and long term, and make sure that the swamp dwellers are held accountable for their lack of action in holding up the law and the foundations of democracy at the heart of your nation.

At the moment it seems that the accountability is all one way, and the extremists are only held to account when the weaponised autism of the technologically capable shine a light on the discrepancies within the system and embarrass the authorities into action.

I agree, except in my part of Oregon the liberals have a lock on the political power.
Everything that libs love, they get here.
One party state.

This foolishness actually predates Trump's win.

6-17-15:  Charleston church shooting.

6-18-15:  Barack Obama, Mitt Romney, and Jeb Bush, all eager for some spotlight, say that the Confederate flag needed to come down from the SC capitol.

6-22-15:  Nikki Haley announces that the flag should come down.

6-24-15:  Our stupid mayor, with his dreams of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. still intact, rushes for national spotlight himself, and proclaims that statues of Beauregard, Davis, and the monument of Lee at Lee Circle, along with the marker for the Battle of Liberty Place, shall all come down in New Orleans.  

Local community organizers then started spreading the notion elsewhere, and it became a plank of the antifa/BLM/occupy/whatever folks.

Every time I hear about another protest/clash elsewhere in the country over monuments, all I can think is "thanks Mitch."

I know someone else may have come up with the notion if he didn't, but I really think he started it.

Well said Sir

And it goes back a lot further than the Charleston Church Shooting.

It started before that during Trayvon Martin. 

The DNC/Hillary/Sanders/Obama. They all have personal connection and support from various Socialist and Communist groups. They've publicly supported groups like Antifa and BLM. They've all coordinated, campaigned, and worled with various Socialist and Communist groups. They've reached out to them. 

Obama had the Dream Defenders in the White House. That was the astroturf group that took over the FL State Capitol during Trayvon Martin.  

I WAS THERE IN PERSON having to work that shit as a cop. I saw DOJ Community Relations Services reps flat out tell us as law enforcement what we can and can't do. The Federal Government told us to let them protest and vandalize. The Federal Government told us not to take action because if we did the Federal Government would rain fury on us.  

I was there when Jessie Jackson and Am Sharpton met with DON CRA reps and coordinated the plan for protest. I was there when Democrats Politicians from the State like Sen. Allen Williams openly supported by funding them with supplies purchased by the FL Democrat Party and coordinated with DOJ CRA reps.  

The Dream Defenders were bussed in from across the country. A good many of them were Socialists and Communists from the Wisconsin Takeover of the Capitol during the attempted removal of the GOP Governor. 

The cadre that formed the leadership of the Dream Defenders went to form various branches of BLM and Antifa. They still had regular communications with the White House until.Trump and sti have them with various levels of government to this day. 

The Left isn't some boogie man. It is fucking real.

The going after Confederate Memorials started back during Trayvon. The Dream Defenders spoke out against it while at the Capitol. 

A vast Yankee conspiracy :

First they created NASCAR with false provenance to keep southern men distracted and sedentary.

Next they bio engineered Golden Corral to be irresistible to the southern palate causing obesity and a decrease in battle readiness.

Then they reduced southern institutions of higher learning to minor leagues for various sports, stopping innovation and research.

Finally and most nefariously they partnered with QVC to sell Elvis memorabilia to drain the economy

Whoa. Too soon?

I think you may be on to something!!!

Hadrians Wall was built because the Romans could not capture the land behind it because their supply lines were too extended to be effective.

The wall provided a physical barrier and protection. Over time, things beyond the wall were viewed as barbaric and crude and things behind it were cultured and refined (Roman influence).

The average smart white guy is not going to post on a forum any comment as to what they might do

Do you think they'll stop at that?  Do you think it's even about the civil war at all?

Im not going to derail this into a Civil War thread, but you're wrong. If the issue was as simple as you portray, the 13 and 14th ammendment wouldn't have been ratified. The Civil War actually started in Kansas and Missouri and the issue was slavery.

The secession happened because Lincoln was elected. The South saw the threat to the institution of slavery, and seceded over slavery.

You're wrong.

Maryland was occupied by the North before it could secede. Delaware had very few slaves. KY was a swing state.
Lincoln could could do nothing about slavery in the states (very few) because they were not at war with the union. Revisionists will say Lincoln didn't care about slavery because his EP didn't include those states not fighting the North-he couldn't. He believed in the law, ex post facto and couldn't just decree slavery illegal in the non warring states.
What Lincoln could do is confiscate property from the warring states, and slaves were property.
After the South was defeated, Slavery was outlawed even in the non warring slave holding states.
There was major anti slavery sentiment in the North. Some northern states came into being slave free (northwest treaty).
Again, to me, this whole tearing down statues has nothing to do with the civil war. It's about stripping down the history of this country, and it won't stop if every southern civil war monument is destroyed.