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Posted: 8/19/2021 11:22:03 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If Rare Breed manages to win the case, I will buy their products for having balls to fight back against AFT. Buy now and help them fight. |
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Posted: 8/19/2021 11:34:55 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Buy now and help them fight. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If Rare Breed manages to win the case, I will buy their products for having balls to fight back against AFT. Buy now and help them fight. Was thinking the same thing. Give RBT enough money to not only win the case but to not stop suing until they own the ATF and turn it into a convenience store with a drive thru!! Just imagine hearing.... "pull ahead to the second window" after ordering your MP5 and a couple cases of beer. 
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Posted: 8/20/2021 12:24:14 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ATF will find a judge to order them to cease (regardless of legal). ATF will draw case out 50yrs with said shopped judge. Doesn’t matter if you think they may win. The AFT own the board. The 6th circuit said they don’t believe the AFT’s bullshit. AFT isn’t invincible. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 12:29:01 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 6th circuit said they don’t believe the AFT’s bullshit. AFT isn’t invincible. Building one enemies into an unstoppable and omniscient force is a way of escaping responsibility. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 8:28:29 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ATF will find a judge to order them to cease (regardless of legal). ATF will draw case out 50yrs with said shopped judge. Doesn’t matter if you think they may win. The AFT own the board. Surrender to blatant abuse by an executive agency operating outside the law? No. I don't think so. Or is that also your plan for when they inevitably start pushing the "semi = MG" narrative? It's coming. https://vimeo.com/589573539 That was a very - VERY - good presentation. It closely mirrors what Kevin Maxwell wrote in response to the ATF. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 8:32:21 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dear ATF, It says on your chart that you're fucked up. Ah, you talk like a fag, and your shit's all retarded. Come take. RBT Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not coming through for me. Anybody have a synopsis? It says on your chart that you're fucked up. Ah, you talk like a fag, and your shit's all retarded. Come take. RBT  Very succinct. I like it. 
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Posted: 8/20/2021 8:33:32 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: More like "it is illegal to have a car with an automatic transmission, automatic meaning a transmission which automatically shifts gears for the driver" Industry innovation: "I have invented a manual transmission that allows the driver to shift gears with paddles on the steering wheel instead of a clutch and stick, enabling much faster manual shifting" And then the EPA or whoever deciding that it's an illegal automatic transmission when it really isn't, just because it lets someone approach the shift speeds of an automatic transmission. good analogy |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 8:35:59 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just imagine hearing.... "that'll be $134.50,pull ahead to the second window" after ordering your MP5 and a couple cases of beer. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: If Rare Breed manages to win the case, I will buy their products for having balls to fight back against AFT. Buy now and help them fight. You left out some details. 
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Posted: 8/20/2021 8:51:10 AM EDT
[#9]
A 9mm version would be pretty cool (I'll be waiting)
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Posted: 8/20/2021 8:53:55 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A 9mm version would be pretty cool (I'll be waiting) |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 8:56:13 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A 9mm version would be pretty cool (I'll be waiting) A .22 version would be great considering the cost of ammo. 
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Posted: 8/20/2021 9:03:49 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ATF will find a judge to order them to cease (regardless of legal). ATF will draw case out 50yrs with said shopped judge. Doesn’t matter if you think they may win. The AFT own the board. Maybe but i don't see anyone else stepping up to tell the ATF to pound sand, in the video he mentions several other items the ATF wants to reclassify (braces, receivers etc). rare breed has the best chance to fight with the DD they did before coming to market, they also seem to have the desire and energy to step into the gap for the 2A so why not help them out? write your elected officials like he said, be a squeaky wheel send them some funds to help them fight. they might not win but then again this could be a boot on the ATFs neck for once, i for one would pay to see that happen. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 9:11:40 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A .22 version would be great considering the cost of ammo. i dont see why it wouldnt work if you had the cmmg sear trip |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 9:23:18 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Surrender to blatant abuse by an executive agency operating outside the law? No. I don't think so. Or is that also your plan for when they inevitably start pushing the "semi = MG" narrative? It's coming. https://vimeo.com/589573539 That was a very - VERY - good presentation. It closely mirrors what Kevin Maxwell wrote in response to the ATF. anyone have link to the alleged evaluation of the FRT by the AFT? |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 9:42:58 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: i dont see why it wouldnt work if you had the cmmg sear trip Negative.... you need the weight for the BCG and a spacer/etc. to block the buffer tube. Costs around $200 total and CMMG has most thing needed on their site but there's another company (name escapes me) that makes the weight set to. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 9:47:53 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: anyone have link to the alleged evaluation of the FRT by the AFT? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Surrender to blatant abuse by an executive agency operating outside the law? No. I don't think so. Or is that also your plan for when they inevitably start pushing the "semi = MG" narrative? It's coming. https://vimeo.com/589573539 That was a very - VERY - good presentation. It closely mirrors what Kevin Maxwell wrote in response to the ATF. anyone have link to the alleged evaluation of the FRT by the AFT? I've been looking. Nothing yet. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 9:56:11 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Negative.... you need the weight for the BCG and a spacer/etc. to block the buffer tube. Costs around $200 total and CMMG has most thing needed on their site but there's another company (name escapes me) that makes the weight set to. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: i dont see why it wouldnt work if you had the cmmg sear trip Negative.... you need the weight for the BCG and a spacer/etc. to block the buffer tube. Costs around $200 total and CMMG has most thing needed on their site but there's another company (name escapes me) that makes the weight set to. Bore Buddy. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 9:59:10 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bore Buddy. That's it!! Thanks. EDIT: But take a look on youtube... only one guy seems to have figure it out and made it reliable that I found up until a few weeks back which was the last time I checked. And it only works with mini-mags. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 10:02:24 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: anyone have link to the alleged evaluation of the FRT by the AFT? I think NoloContendere posted the link a few pages back. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 10:04:57 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: anyone have link to the alleged evaluation of the FRT by the AFT? here you go https://www.dropbox.com/s/looi7kd5yfwvnbr/ATF%20Part%204%20Admin%20record.pdf?dl=0 It appears the AFT's stance is they have previously had a device banned because it caused a force reset of the trigger/forward assist of finger.. next step is labeling all semi-auto rifles MG's because they can be bump fired causing forward assist of finger.. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 10:10:45 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: anyone have link to the alleged evaluation of the FRT by the AFT? I don't think there is any, other than as described in the C&D letter to RB. RB had some former tech branch employees look it over before going to market. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 10:14:31 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:I've been looking. Nothing yet. Poor mans machinegun has a copy of it on youtube. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 10:15:33 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think there is any, other than as described in the C&D letter to RB. RB had some former[/i] tech branch employees look it over before going to market. ATF has now formally evaluated it. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 10:20:06 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: here you go https://www.dropbox.com/s/looi7kd5yfwvnbr/ATF%20Part%204%20Admin%20record.pdf?dl=0 It appears the AFT's stance is they have previously had a device banned because it caused a force reset of the trigger/forward assist of finger.. next step is labeling all semi-auto rifles MG's because they can be bump fired causing forward assist of finger.. Thank you. will read now. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 10:24:13 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Poor mans machinegun has a copy of it on youtube. What a load of shit! "Oh...if I put my finger on it this way....I can get it to rapid fire!" No shit! I can do the same thing with a belt loop jackass! Love Dan's phrasing that should be an open/shut case in court. "That's a function of the SHOOTER, not a function of the trigger." I just hope they don't get a lib judge that is blind to the evidence and prejudiced against reality. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 10:26:20 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thank you. will read now. edit: so they conclude its a machine gun, even though their "single pull" is actually just pressure on the trigger as it shoots/resets each time. so pulling the trigger multiple times, just really fast. same as a bump stock is just pulling the trigger really fast. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 10:28:31 AM EDT
[#27]
I'd love to see them (RBT) put a video up with a see through lower with RBT, a real machine gun, and semi-auto side by side in a court room. and show everyone the trigger is being pulled for each shot.
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Posted: 8/20/2021 10:47:42 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: here you go https://www.dropbox.com/s/looi7kd5yfwvnbr/ATF%20Part%204%20Admin%20record.pdf?dl=0 It appears the AFT's stance is they have previously had a device banned because it caused a force reset of the trigger/forward assist of finger.. next step is labeling all semi-auto rifles MG's because they can be bump fired causing forward assist of finger.. So their argument is basically "well we've done it before."? |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 11:01:01 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So their argument is basically "well we've done it before."? and ignoring a trigger reset, and subsequent pull of the trigger to fire another round. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 11:01:12 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So their argument is basically "well we've done it before."? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: here you go https://www.dropbox.com/s/looi7kd5yfwvnbr/ATF%20Part%204%20Admin%20record.pdf?dl=0 It appears the AFT's stance is they have previously had a device banned because it caused a force reset of the trigger/forward assist of finger.. next step is labeling all semi-auto rifles MG's because they can be bump fired causing forward assist of finger.. So their argument is basically "well we've done it before."? Yep, I sincerely hope Rare Breed wins and puts a stop to that argument. I’d love to see Rare Breed call the AFT’s own former employees for testimony that the FRT-15 isn’t a machine gun in court. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 11:15:39 AM EDT
[#31]
To donate to their RBT Defense Fund, send check to:
Law Offices of Kevin Maxwell 255 Primera Blvd, suite 160 Lake Mary, FL 32746 Be sure to note it is intended for the RBT Defense Fund. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 11:56:19 AM EDT
[#32]
It sure would be a shame if someone at Rare Breed was surfing questionable websites and got hit with a ransomware virus. Here you go Mr. ATF man, the hard drive with our customer sales list. Have at it. You got $3,000,000?
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Posted: 8/20/2021 11:57:33 AM EDT
[#33]
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Posted: 8/20/2021 12:10:33 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Rare Breed LLC has filed suit against them and is asking for a declaratory judgement, I believe the hearing is Aug 18th. 
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Posted: 8/20/2021 12:12:02 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryWhy did he say he "wasn't surprised" and "thought ATF would have stopped him sooner"? I mean I think I know what he meant, but why even say something that could easily be taken out of context and twisted into sort of an admission of guilt? |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 12:17:15 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryGood Post, Thanks. The ftatf personnel will do whatever they have to to obtain the results that they want. I only recall two instances when they went door to door. One involved the shooting death of a federal employee (forget the branch) whose body was found in a stream outside a motel room. It was a threaded Makarove barrel that suggests that a suppressor was used. The other was for PPSH kits (a long time ago) that were demilled by cutting the receiver tube on a band saw, all parts kits are torch cut now. The ftatf zip tied the pieces to a board and were able to get it to fire as an MG. I'd bet that there were some nervous people awaiting a knock at their door. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 12:23:33 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why did he say he "wasn't surprised" and "thought ATF would have stopped him sooner"? I mean I think I know what he meant, but why even say something that could easily be taken out of context and twisted into sort of an admission of guilt? Quote HistoryQuoted: Why did he say he "wasn't surprised" and "thought ATF would have stopped him sooner"? I mean I think I know what he meant, but why even say something that could easily be taken out of context and twisted into sort of an admission of guilt? |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 12:27:40 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The same reason none of us are surprised. BATFE calls anything they don't like a machinegun. This was inevitable. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why did he say he "wasn't surprised" and "thought ATF would have stopped him sooner"? I mean I think I know what he meant, but why even say something that could easily be taken out of context and twisted into sort of an admission of guilt? Yes we aren't surprised, because we are more knowledgeable than 99% of the general population and we know what he meant. You have to think about how other people will interpret those statements. What if you were reading an article about a guy being investigated for child porn, and he was quoted as saying he "wasn't surprised" and "thought LE would have stopped him sooner"? Are you going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume "oh maybe he means the evidence was planted or he was falsely accused" or are you going to immediately say that guy is 100% guilty? |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 12:36:07 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes we aren't surprised, because we are more knowledgeable than 99% of the general population and we know what he meant. You have to think about how other people will interpret those statements. What if you were reading an article about a guy being investigated for child porn, and he was quoted as saying he "wasn't surprised" and "thought LE would have stopped him sooner"? Are you going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume "oh maybe he means the evidence was planted or he was falsely accused" or are you going to immediately say that guy is 100% guilty? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why did he say he "wasn't surprised" and "thought ATF would have stopped him sooner"? I mean I think I know what he meant, but why even say something that could easily be taken out of context and twisted into sort of an admission of guilt? Yes we aren't surprised, because we are more knowledgeable than 99% of the general population and we know what he meant. You have to think about how other people will interpret those statements. What if you were reading an article about a guy being investigated for child porn, and he was quoted as saying he "wasn't surprised" and "thought LE would have stopped him sooner"? Are you going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume "oh maybe he means the evidence was planted or he was falsely accused" or are you going to immediately say that guy is 100% guilty? |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 12:44:00 PM EDT
[#40]
I'm not a lawyer, but based on my reading of the docs, it's all going to come down to how a "single function of the trigger" is defined and interpreted by the court for this case. ATF seems to indirectly acknowledge that if you use a literal definition of that phrase, then this is not a MG because every time they mention the phrase, they deliberately include this language that shows how they and courts have allowed for an expanded meaning of that rather than the literal meaning:
 Attached FileThe former ATF employees opinions that Kevin Maxwell (who is an attorney himself, apparently) provided appear to only go by the literal meaning of the "single function of the trigger" and are not using ATF's 'expanded' meaning like the above - so naturally, they come to a different conclusion and determine that it doesn't meet the definition of a MG. Bottom line is that I think that the lynchpin here will be: How will a court in this case interpret the meaning of that one phrase "single function of the trigger"? |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 12:58:42 PM EDT
[#41]
All triggers "reset" to their forward position - so the (felonious) quibble is over the degree of force used to perform the reset?
No semi design of any flavor requires one to shove their fingers behind the trigger after each shot to pry the trigger forward and it doesn't reset magically either. 
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Posted: 8/20/2021 1:04:03 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes we aren't surprised, because we are more knowledgeable than 99% of the general population and we know what he meant. You have to think about how other people will interpret those statements. What if you were reading an article about a guy being investigated for child porn, and he was quoted as saying he "wasn't surprised" and "thought LE would have stopped him sooner"? Are you going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume "oh maybe he means the evidence was planted or he was falsely accused" or are you going to immediately say that guy is 100% guilty? More like: What if you were reading an article about a guy being investigated for child porn because the actors are twenty year old midgets and he was quoted as saying he "wasn't surprised" |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 1:12:45 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryMan I like this guy more and more. Tl:Dr Dear atf man, your pp very small, come at me bro. Love Maxwell |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 1:18:44 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes we aren't surprised, because we are more knowledgeable than 99% of the general population and we know what he meant. You have to think about how other people will interpret those statements. What if you were reading an article about a guy being investigated for child porn, and he was quoted as saying he "wasn't surprised" and "thought LE would have stopped him sooner"? Are you going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume "oh maybe he means the evidence was planted or he was falsely accused" or are you going to immediately say that guy is 100% guilty? Well for one thing, CP possession is a crime, and making FCGs for semiautomatic rifles is not. That would be like LE trying to charge you for CP possession for a video with a 20 y/o actress because she "looks" like she could be 17. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 1:22:57 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All triggers "reset" to their forward position - so the (felonious) quibble is over the degree of force used to perform the reset? No semi design of any flavor requires one to shove their fingers behind the trigger after each shot to pry the trigger forward and it doesn't reset magically either. Yep, about the only triggers that do not use force to reset are are basic single actions. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 1:39:47 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well for one thing, CP possession is a crime, and making FCGs for semiautomatic rifles is not. That would be like LE trying to charge you for CP possession for a video with a 20 y/o actress because she "looks" like she could be 17. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes we aren't surprised, because we are more knowledgeable than 99% of the general population and we know what he meant. You have to think about how other people will interpret those statements. What if you were reading an article about a guy being investigated for child porn, and he was quoted as saying he "wasn't surprised" and "thought LE would have stopped him sooner"? Are you going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume "oh maybe he means the evidence was planted or he was falsely accused" or are you going to immediately say that guy is 100% guilty? Well for one thing, CP possession is a crime, and making FCGs for semiautomatic rifles is not. That would be like LE trying to charge you for CP possession for a video with a 20 y/o actress because she "looks" like she could be 17. No shit.  That's why I said we know what he meant, but the general public will not. To the general public, those 2 statements will sound like an admission of guilt about manufacturing illegal machine guns. Obviously the ATF feels the same way or they wouldn't have included those direct quotes in their report.But I guess you're right, I'm stupid for thinking those statements could be taken out of context and used against him. If you ever get falsely arrested, you should definitely tell the cops you're not surprised and you thought they would have stopped you sooner. Definitely. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 1:50:55 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No shit. That's why I said we know what he meant, but the general public will not. To the general public, those 2 statements will sound like an admission of guilt about manufacturing illegal machine guns. Obviously the ATF feels the same way or they wouldn't have included those direct quotes in their report.But I guess you're right, I'm stupid for thinking those statements could be taken out of context and used against him. If you ever get falsely arrested, you should definitely tell the cops you're not surprised and you thought they would have stopped you sooner. Definitely. Unclutch your pearls. Pretty much the only people who know anything about this are 2A people. The general public could not care less about this case. If you polled 1000 people on the street, I would be surprised if 1 knew what you were talking about. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 1:54:53 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No shit. That's why I said we know what he meant, but the general public will not. To the general public, those 2 statements will sound like an admission of guilt about manufacturing illegal machine guns. Obviously the ATF feels the same way or they wouldn't have included those direct quotes in their report.But I guess you're right, I'm stupid for thinking those statements could be taken out of context and used against him. If you ever get falsely arrested, you should definitely tell the cops you're not surprised and you thought they would have stopped you sooner. Definitely. I really think you're making too much of this. I also didn't call you stupid, nor intend to condescend, I just didn't feel your comparison fit the scenario. Kevin Maxwell was well prepared for this to happen. He wouldn't have prepared to this degree if he didn't expect the AFT to come knocking. He expected it because AFT has given similar treatment to many other manufacturers who have made not-machineguns that the ATF decided were machineguns. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 1:55:36 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unclutch your pearls. Pretty much the only people who know anything about this are 2A people. The general public could not care less about this case. If you polled 1000 people on the street, I would be surprised if 1 knew what you were talking about. I'm thinking this is the point to consider as to why this needs to go in front of judge that basically has a hard on against the NFA! Otherwise, even a fudd judge is going to fuck it up, bypass the letter of the law, and only pay attention to video clips and how fast the shells are coming out of the gun. |
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Posted: 8/20/2021 2:09:20 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm thinking this is the point to consider as to why this needs to go in front of judge that basically has a hard on against the NFA! Otherwise, even a fudd judge is going to fuck it up, bypass the letter of the law, and only pay attention to video clips and how fast the shells are coming out of the gun. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Unclutch your pearls. Pretty much the only people who know anything about this are 2A people. The general public could not care less about this case. If you polled 1000 people on the street, I would be surprised if 1 knew what you were talking about. I'm thinking this is the point to consider as to why this needs to go in front of judge that basically has a hard on against the NFA! Otherwise, even a fudd judge is going to fuck it up, bypass the letter of the law, and only pay attention to video clips and how fast the shells are coming out of the gun. I think this gets appealed regardless of the outcome of the case. |
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