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Posted: 8/23/2021 4:13:57 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 8/23/2021 4:15:54 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ProTip: This thread is about FRT Triggers and the AFT. Thank you. Arfcoms favorite saying, "go be poor somewhere else" My variant is GO BE SCARED SOMEWHERE ELSE |
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Posted: 8/23/2021 4:36:14 PM EDT
[#3]
Technical discussion of the FRT and FRT setups can be found here
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Posted: 8/26/2021 7:33:22 AM EDT
[#4]
Was going to ask if there were any updates as we head into Friday. (i.e. what judge, arguments, etc.) but it looks like this is about the best that's out there....
 The ATF is Trying To Use After Market Trigger To Expand The Definition of A Machine Gun |
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Posted: 8/26/2021 9:11:11 AM EDT
[#5]
Chevron deference needs to be overturned. Due process is supposed to protect life, liberty, and property. Continuing to allow executive branch agencies to deprive people of property without due process will not turn out well for anyone.
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Posted: 8/26/2021 10:19:59 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Chevron deference needs to be overturned. Due process is supposed to protect life, liberty, and property. Continuing to allow executive branch agencies to deprive people of property without due process will not turn out well for anyone. This. 
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Posted: 8/27/2021 12:48:06 PM EDT
[#7]
Anyone got a source for updates? Wasn't court date today?
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Posted: 8/27/2021 12:53:20 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone got a source for updates? Wasn't court date today? I do believe that it is today. I'm sure that it will take a bit of time for information to get to us. Hoping for good news but the atf does what it wants w\o having to answer to anyone. They'll play a video and say "I'ts firing faster than a bump stock which we banned so it's an fa mg." |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 2:10:40 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I do believe that it is today. I'm sure that it will take a bit of time for information to get to us. Hoping for good news but the atf does what it wants w\o having to answer to anyone. They'll play a video and say "I'ts firing faster than a bump stock which we banned so it's an fa mg." Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Anyone got a source for updates? Wasn't court date today? I do believe that it is today. I'm sure that it will take a bit of time for information to get to us. Hoping for good news but the atf does what it wants w\o having to answer to anyone. They'll play a video and say "I'ts firing faster than a bump stock which we banned so it's an fa mg." Except their bump stock ban got stayed in the 6th circuit, so they have to actually back up their bullshit now. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 2:54:23 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except their bump stock ban got stayed in the 6th circuit, so they have to actually back up their bullshit now. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Anyone got a source for updates? Wasn't court date today? I do believe that it is today. I'm sure that it will take a bit of time for information to get to us. Hoping for good news but the atf does what it wants w\o having to answer to anyone. They'll play a video and say "I'ts firing faster than a bump stock which we banned so it's an fa mg." Except their bump stock ban got stayed in the 6th circuit, so they have to actually back up their bullshit now. Thanks, I'd forgotten about that. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 6:41:42 PM EDT
[#11]
Latest updates I found include the ATF using a zip tie during testing, acting as a spring, to try to say it's a MG. RB says by adding zip tie, which they manipulated during firing, makes test invalid as they added a part etc.
ATF opened a Grandy jury investigation in West Texas after RB told them to pound sand. RB says its just attempt to get customer list. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 6:56:25 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Latest updates I found include the ATF using a zip tie during testing, acting as a spring, to try to say it's a MG. RB says by adding zip tie, which they manipulated during firing, makes test invalid as they added a part etc. ATF opened a Grandy jury investigation in West Texas after RB told them to pound sand. RB says its just attempt to get customer list. Don't all the aft determination letters say something to the effect of 'any modifications to the [xyz] as tested may/may not change it's status as a [nfa item]'? I would think that a stack of those letters with disclaimers would be beneficial to RB's argument. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 7:03:54 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Latest updates I found include the ATF using a zip tie during testing, acting as a spring, to try to say it's a MG. RB says by adding zip tie, which they manipulated during firing, makes test invalid as they added a part etc. ATF opened a Grandy jury investigation in West Texas after RB told them to pound sand. RB says its just attempt to get customer list. FATF. That sounds like their usual testing shenanigans where they choose their intended outcome and then test until they achieve it. Also, the customer list is absolutely a target. Rare Breed has a bunch of money and expertise to defend a case, but the purchasers don’t. If they can threaten a few purchasers with criminal prosecutions or get the courts to agree the part is a machine gun, then they’ll achieve their goals. Piece of shit bureaucrats. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 7:17:06 PM EDT
[#14]
I have came close to buying one of these dozens of times this year. Today should be the day I FO!
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Posted: 8/27/2021 7:24:14 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Latest updates I found include the ATF using a zip tie during testing, acting as a spring, to try to say it's a MG. RB says by adding zip tie, which they manipulated during firing, makes test invalid as they added a part etc. ATF opened a Grandy jury investigation in West Texas after RB told them to pound sand. RB says its just attempt to get customer list.  Sounds an awful lot like adding a shoestring to a semiauto rifle's trigger and charging handle-in which case ATF classified the string as the MG, not the FCG. But who needs to be consistent when you can just railroad everybody anyway? |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 7:44:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds an awful lot like adding a shoestring to a semiauto rifle's trigger and charging handle-in which case ATF classified the string as the MG, not the FCG. But who needs to be consistent when you can just railroad everybody anyway? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Latest updates I found include the ATF using a zip tie during testing, acting as a spring, to try to say it's a MG. RB says by adding zip tie, which they manipulated during firing, makes test invalid as they added a part etc. ATF opened a Grandy jury investigation in West Texas after RB told them to pound sand. RB says its just attempt to get customer list. Sounds an awful lot like adding a shoestring to a semiauto rifle's trigger and charging handle-in which case ATF classified the string as the MG, not the FCG. But who needs to be consistent when you can just railroad everybody anyway? Just like a DIAS is the machine gun, not the FCG. A Lighning Link is the machine gun, not the FCG. A Quick Connector is the machine gun, not the FCG. I know how the FRT works. I'm having a hard time figuring out how a zip tie was applied that is going to alter the function of the thing. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 7:51:08 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just like a DIAS is the machine gun, not the FCG. A Lighning Link is the machine gun, not the FCG. A Quick Connector is the machine gun, not the FCG. I know how the FRT works. I'm having a hard time figuring out how a zip tie was applied that is going to alter the function of the thing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Latest updates I found include the ATF using a zip tie during testing, acting as a spring, to try to say it's a MG. RB says by adding zip tie, which they manipulated during firing, makes test invalid as they added a part etc. ATF opened a Grandy jury investigation in West Texas after RB told them to pound sand. RB says its just attempt to get customer list. Sounds an awful lot like adding a shoestring to a semiauto rifle's trigger and charging handle-in which case ATF classified the string as the MG, not the FCG. But who needs to be consistent when you can just railroad everybody anyway? Just like a DIAS is the machine gun, not the FCG. A Lighning Link is the machine gun, not the FCG. A Quick Connector is the machine gun, not the FCG. I know how the FRT works. I'm having a hard time figuring out how a zip tie was applied that is going to alter the function of the thing. Simple. By using a nice thin flexible one they could easily set it up so that the zip tie can be "fixed in position"  and "continuously fire with one function" - that'll be the argument anyway.Never mind that the flexible nature of such a ziptie would absolutely act as a spring and store energy from each reset to pull the trigger again. Never mind that at all. 
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Posted: 8/27/2021 7:56:54 PM EDT
[#18]
A "C" clamp should be a valid test. It will prevent the trigger from moving forward. The C clamp won't store energy like a piece of flexible/elastic plastic.
On a MG, it would continue to fire. On a semi/FRT, one shot and done. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 7:57:40 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Simple. By using a nice thin flexible one they could easily set it up so that the zip tie can be "fixed in position" and "continuously fire with one function" - that'll be the argument anyway.Never mind that the flexible nature of such a ziptie would absolutely act as a spring and store energy from each reset to pull the trigger again. Never mind that at all. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Latest updates I found include the ATF using a zip tie during testing, acting as a spring, to try to say it's a MG. RB says by adding zip tie, which they manipulated during firing, makes test invalid as they added a part etc. ATF opened a Grandy jury investigation in West Texas after RB told them to pound sand. RB says its just attempt to get customer list. Sounds an awful lot like adding a shoestring to a semiauto rifle's trigger and charging handle-in which case ATF classified the string as the MG, not the FCG. But who needs to be consistent when you can just railroad everybody anyway? Just like a DIAS is the machine gun, not the FCG. A Lighning Link is the machine gun, not the FCG. A Quick Connector is the machine gun, not the FCG. I know how the FRT works. I'm having a hard time figuring out how a zip tie was applied that is going to alter the function of the thing. Simple. By using a nice thin flexible one they could easily set it up so that the zip tie can be "fixed in position" and "continuously fire with one function" - that'll be the argument anyway.Never mind that the flexible nature of such a ziptie would absolutely act as a spring and store energy from each reset to pull the trigger again. Never mind that at all. So, wrapped around the grip and trigger? Yup, its the boot lace shit again. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 8:12:53 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A "C" clamp should be a valid test. It will prevent the trigger from moving forward. The C clamp won't store energy like a piece of flexible/elastic plastic. On a MG, it would continue to fire. On a semi/FRT, one shot and done. Quote HistoryQuoted: A "C" clamp should be a valid test. It will prevent the trigger from moving forward. The C clamp won't store energy like a piece of flexible/elastic plastic. On a MG, it would continue to fire. On a semi/FRT, one shot and done. If you write it in law that it must be a c clamp do you know what you'll get? A flimsy plastic one with the same result. Make it so it has to be such and such spec steel and so on - what do you get? A clamp so poorly attached to the gun but excellently held in place by a flexible setup with the same damn result. They're not looking to make an honest determination. They're looking to back up a decision already made. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Latest updates I found include the ATF using a zip tie during testing, acting as a spring, to try to say it's a MG. RB says by adding zip tie, which they manipulated during firing, makes test invalid as they added a part etc. ATF opened a Grandy jury investigation in West Texas after RB told them to pound sand. RB says its just attempt to get customer list. Sounds an awful lot like adding a shoestring to a semiauto rifle's trigger and charging handle-in which case ATF classified the string as the MG, not the FCG. But who needs to be consistent when you can just railroad everybody anyway? Just like a DIAS is the machine gun, not the FCG. A Lighning Link is the machine gun, not the FCG. A Quick Connector is the machine gun, not the FCG. I know how the FRT works. I'm having a hard time figuring out how a zip tie was applied that is going to alter the function of the thing. Simple. By using a nice thin flexible one they could easily set it up so that the zip tie can be "fixed in position" and "continuously fire with one function" - that'll be the argument anyway.Never mind that the flexible nature of such a ziptie would absolutely act as a spring and store energy from each reset to pull the trigger again. Never mind that at all. So, wrapped around the grip and trigger? Yup, its the boot lace shit again. Are you surprised? You shouldn't be. Anything - anything at all - can be called a MG. 922(o) was dangerous in that it gave the ATF this eventual power to unilaterally ban and confiscate private property. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 8:19:41 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just like a DIAS is the machine gun, not the FCG. A Lighning Link is the machine gun, not the FCG. A Quick Connector is the machine gun, not the FCG. I know how the FRT works. I'm having a hard time figuring out how a zip tie was applied that is going to alter the function of the thing. By that same logic, that means the zip tie would be the MG, not the FCG, correct? |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 8:23:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you write it in law that it must be a c clamp do you know what you'll get? A flimsy plastic one with the same result. Make it so it has to be such and such spec steel and so on - what do you get? A clamp so poorly attached to the gun but excellently held in place by a flexible setup with the same damn result. They're not looking to make an honest determination. They're looking to back up a decision already made. Are you surprised? You shouldn't be. Anything - anything at all - can be called a MG. 922(o) was dangerous in that it gave the ATF this eventual power to unilaterally ban and confiscate private property. Not surprised, just pointing out the inconsistency. Probably completely unnecessary. Pretty clear that the ATF will contrive a scenario and place themselves on whichever side suits their agenda at the time. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 8:24:19 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: By that same logic, that means the zip tie would be the MG, not the FCG, correct? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just like a DIAS is the machine gun, not the FCG. A Lighning Link is the machine gun, not the FCG. A Quick Connector is the machine gun, not the FCG. I know how the FRT works. I'm having a hard time figuring out how a zip tie was applied that is going to alter the function of the thing. By that same logic, that means the zip tie would be the MG, not the FCG, correct? ATF: 
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Posted: 8/27/2021 8:32:19 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: By that same logic, that means the zip tie would be the MG, not the FCG, correct? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just like a DIAS is the machine gun, not the FCG. A Lighning Link is the machine gun, not the FCG. A Quick Connector is the machine gun, not the FCG. I know how the FRT works. I'm having a hard time figuring out how a zip tie was applied that is going to alter the function of the thing. By that same logic, that means the zip tie would be the MG, not the FCG, correct? Thats the way I see it. Its the added part that causes the function of a semi auto FCG to be altered. But the ATF method on the FRT would cause the gun to start firing as soon as a round was chambered if the safety is off or as soon as the safety is flipped to fire if a round is chambered with it on. I know they aren't concerned with safety or practicality, just that it works, but that's still a separate piece added to an FCG that is semi auto without their modification. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 9:11:32 PM EDT
[#25]
Way back and long ago a person submitted a Sten MK II w\o a fcg, it just slam fired as an open bolt mg does.
His argument was that there was no trigger to pull or manipulate. A brilliant strategy but he lost. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 10:10:26 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Simple. By using a nice thin flexible one they could easily set it up so that the zip tie can be "fixed in position" and "continuously fire with one function" - that'll be the argument anyway.Never mind that the flexible nature of such a ziptie would absolutely act as a spring and store energy from each reset to pull the trigger again. Never mind that at all. If you’re going to add a mechanical device (zip tie), you’re changing the original nature of that device into a new/completely different device. I could “potentially” polish a standard FCG hammer /disconnector interface. Does that “potential action” mean every AR ever made should now be be considered a MG? The only way the AFT can argue a law, is by breaking it. Clown World |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 10:14:00 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you’re going to add a mechanical device (zip tie), you’re changing the original nature of that device into a new/completely different device. I could “potentially” polish a standard FCG hammer /disconnector interface. Does that “potential action” mean every AR ever made should now be be considered a MG? The only way the AFT can argue a law, is by breaking it. Clown World They're not arguing law, they're arguing lawlessness. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 10:14:11 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: By that same logic, that means the zip tie would be the MG, not the FCG, correct? That's what RB said as well. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 10:17:48 PM EDT
[#29]
The ATF in emails said it was an MG before they even tested it. Then said they couldn't do anything formally until they had a unit in hand. They clearly setup a test to get the results they wanted. RB articulated that very clearly In the court docs.
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Posted: 8/27/2021 10:31:47 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you're going to add a mechanical device (zip tie), you're changing the original nature of that device into a new/completely different device. I could "potentially" polish a standard FCG hammer /disconnector interface. Does that "potential action" mean every AR ever made should now be be considered a MG? The only way the AFT can argue a law, is by breaking it. Clown World Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Simple. By using a nice thin flexible one they could easily set it up so that the zip tie can be "fixed in position" and "continuously fire with one function" - that'll be the argument anyway.Never mind that the flexible nature of such a ziptie would absolutely act as a spring and store energy from each reset to pull the trigger again. Never mind that at all. If you're going to add a mechanical device (zip tie), you're changing the original nature of that device into a new/completely different device. I could "potentially" polish a standard FCG hammer /disconnector interface. Does that "potential action" mean every AR ever made should now be be considered a MG? The only way the AFT can argue a law, is by breaking it. Clown World It's their same BS "trigger pull" declaration.The RFT must reset, or it cannot fire. The trigger must function again to fire. ETA: IF they are using the zip tie wrapped around grip\frame and trigger, to pull trigger. Unless they did something internally. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 11:00:36 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The trigger must function again to fire..  Attached FileMy point is; everything is readily convertible if you’re willing to break the law. The AFT is perverting RB’s good faith design by breaking the law and modifying it. |
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Posted: 8/29/2021 1:14:11 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Should have bought one to support the fight now. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If Rare Breed manages to win the case, I will buy their products for having balls to fight back against AFT. Should have bought one to support the fight now. I did, the fight has been engaged FBATFE |
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Posted: 8/29/2021 1:22:28 AM EDT
[#33]
Where are these elastic zip ties?
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Posted: 8/29/2021 1:49:48 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where are these elastic zip ties? (of an object or material) able to resume its normal shape spontaneously after contraction, dilatation, or distortion. Sometimes words is hard, but if you’re having a difficult time figuring out what’s going on there are many good resources for expanding ones vocabulary. Use the device you are on to look up the word(s) you struggle with. We used to have to use a real dictionary, but now we don’t. |
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Posted: 8/29/2021 10:24:12 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where are these elastic zip ties? When you only need .1" of flex, most plastics are going to deform and return to shape as the pressure on the trigger changes. |
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Posted: 8/29/2021 10:52:45 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where are these elastic zip ties? Ever handled a zip tie? They don't like tight bends. If you put one around the trigger at the correct tension the stiffness will be enough to pull the trigger, but not enough to resist the bolt carrier. |
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Posted: 8/29/2021 12:47:42 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/6578B03F-C6AB-44D2-9829-8851B7318BE5-478.gif My point is; everything is readily convertible if you’re willing to break the law. The AFT is perverting RB’s good faith design by breaking the law and modifying it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The trigger must function again to fire.. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/6578B03F-C6AB-44D2-9829-8851B7318BE5-478.gif My point is; everything is readily convertible if you’re willing to break the law. The AFT is perverting RB’s good faith design by breaking the law and modifying it. If a shoelace can be a machine gun, wouldn’t that make the zip tie a machine gun in this test? |
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Posted: 8/29/2021 1:42:42 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If a shoelace can be a machine gun, wouldn't that make the zip tie a machine gun in this test? Actually, no. Because the Zip Tie wasn't a part designed and intended solely and exclusively or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun It's a fucking zip tie. The shoestring machine gun was a dumb ruling too. It's literally the AFT not playing by its own rules. |
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Posted: 8/29/2021 2:03:49 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually, no. Because the Zip Tie wasn't a part designed and intended solely and exclusively or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun It's a fucking zip tie. The shoestring machine gun was a dumb ruling too. It's literally the AFT not playing by its own rules. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If a shoelace can be a machine gun, wouldn't that make the zip tie a machine gun in this test? Actually, no. Because the Zip Tie wasn't a part designed and intended solely and exclusively or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun It's a fucking zip tie. The shoestring machine gun was a dumb ruling too. It's literally the AFT not playing by its own rules. 68. Another reason that this test is faulty and intentionally misleading is the addition of a zip-tie. Under 26 U.S.C. 5845(b) when SMITH installed the zip-tie he added a part and thereby he manufactured a "machinegun". The zip-tie acts as a spring that repeatedly causes the pulling of the trigger, i.e., SMITH is adding an additional part to the gun, that does not exist on the FRT-15 to try and make the FRT-15 meet the definition of a "machinegun". This is really no different thanSMITH adding any other part to the firearm, such as an auto sear, as described above, in order to obtain the results the ATF had predetermined. |
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Posted: 8/29/2021 3:00:42 PM EDT
[#40]
Adding a zip tie makes the zip tie the new trigger.
You pull the tail taught, and that is the pull. The zip tie being tightened is the single function. Adding a new part (zip tie) constitutes manufacturing a machine gun. In my humble opinion. |
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Posted: 8/29/2021 3:14:56 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Adding a zip tie makes the zip tie the new trigger. You pull the tail taught, and that is the pull. The zip tie being tightened is the single function. Adding a new part (zip tie) constitutes manufacturing a machine gun. In my humble opinion. |
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Posted: 8/29/2021 3:18:46 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IDK, I think RBT stepped on their junk. If they stepped on their junk it is only because their junk is huge.  Regarding the spring part, IIRC it was the spring that had to be disposed of from the Akins device to render it NOT a machine gun. I'm going to guess that RBT is setting them up with refering to the zip tie as a spring. |
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Posted: 8/29/2021 3:34:12 PM EDT
[#43]
Bear with me here:
The National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. 5845(b) defines “machine gun” to include any combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon to shoot automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. That doesn't say what has to be reloaded. In the past I think most have taken that to mean ejecting and putting another round in the chamber. That also would cover/exclude the older pump shotguns that didn't have a trigger disconnector. Load - a weight or source of pressure borne by someone or something It the case of the RBFRT, and bumpstocks for that matter, the 'reload' is being done manually through the finger on the FRT -and the arm on the bumpstock. Thoughts? |
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Posted: 8/29/2021 3:49:54 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bear with me here: The National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. 5845(b) defines “machine gun” to include any combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon to shoot automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. That doesn't say what has to be reloaded. In the past I think most have taken that to mean ejecting and putting another round in the chamber. That also would cover/exclude the older pump shotguns that didn't have a trigger disconnector. Load - a weight or source of pressure borne by someone or something It the case of the RBFRT, and bumpstocks for that matter, the 'reload' is being done manually through the finger on the FRT -and the arm on the bumpstock. Thoughts? I don't think you are wrong with what you are saying here. But you may be missing the point that the FATF takes the square peg and does whatever they need to it, the hole, or the person looking at the process....until it fits in their round hole. Of course a bump stock isn't a machine gun. It's a stock. The FRT isn't a machine gun. It's a trigger. I always thought an interesting conversation would be.... Supervisor: Agent, give me your sidearm. Today, you trade up to a machine gun!! Agent: Cool! Supervisor: And here you go! *Hands agent a bump stock* Agent: Uhhh.... this is a piece of plastic! Give me my pistol back. Supervisor: Nope! That's a machine gun! Now go kick some doors in! Anyone ever think such a discussion would ever happen? 
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Posted: 8/29/2021 3:59:35 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think you are wrong with what you are saying here. But you may be missing the point that the FATF takes the square peg and does whatever they need to it, the hole, or the person looking at the process....until it fits in their round hole. Of course a bump stock isn't a machine gun. It's a stock. The FRT isn't a machine gun. It's a trigger. I always thought an interesting conversation would be.... Supervisor: Agent, give me your sidearm. Today, you trade up to a machine gun!! Agent: Cool! Supervisor: And here you go! *Hands agent a bump stock* Agent: Uhhh.... this is a piece of plastic! Give me my pistol back. Supervisor: Nope! That's a machine gun! Now go kick some doors in! Anyone ever think such a discussion would ever happen? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Bear with me here: The National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. 5845(b) defines “machine gun” to include any combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon to shoot automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. That doesn't say what has to be reloaded. In the past I think most have taken that to mean ejecting and putting another round in the chamber. That also would cover/exclude the older pump shotguns that didn't have a trigger disconnector. Load - a weight or source of pressure borne by someone or something It the case of the RBFRT, and bumpstocks for that matter, the 'reload' is being done manually through the finger on the FRT -and the arm on the bumpstock. Thoughts? I don't think you are wrong with what you are saying here. But you may be missing the point that the FATF takes the square peg and does whatever they need to it, the hole, or the person looking at the process....until it fits in their round hole. Of course a bump stock isn't a machine gun. It's a stock. The FRT isn't a machine gun. It's a trigger. I always thought an interesting conversation would be.... Supervisor: Agent, give me your sidearm. Today, you trade up to a machine gun!! Agent: Cool! Supervisor: And here you go! *Hands agent a bump stock* Agent: Uhhh.... this is a piece of plastic! Give me my pistol back. Supervisor: Nope! That's a machine gun! Now go kick some doors in! Anyone ever think such a discussion would ever happen? The first part: The last part: 
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Posted: 8/30/2021 2:23:55 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If a shoelace can be a machine gun, wouldn’t that make the zip tie a machine gun in this test? IMO, you’re creating an entirely new (unrelated) MG when you add, subtract or modify parts. You can’t make a change and then treat it as if it’s the same thing. Using Clown World AFT logic, every AR should be deemed a MG because you could “potentially” add polishing Flitz to the disconnector. |
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Posted: 8/30/2021 2:22:25 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IMO, you’re creating an entirely new (unrelated) MG when you add, subtract or modify parts. You can’t make a change and then treat it as if it’s the same thing. Using Clown World AFT logic, every AR should be deemed a MG because you could “potentially” add polishing Flitz to the disconnector. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If a shoelace can be a machine gun, wouldn’t that make the zip tie a machine gun in this test? IMO, you’re creating an entirely new (unrelated) MG when you add, subtract or modify parts. You can’t make a change and then treat it as if it’s the same thing. Using Clown World AFT logic, every AR should be deemed a MG because you could “potentially” add polishing Flitz to the disconnector. 
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Posted: 8/31/2021 11:00:31 AM EDT
[#48]
Is my understanding of the current status correct? RBT is filing for an injunction in Florida federal court to stop ATF action, ATF is convening a grand jury in Texas to subpoena customer list from RBT?
Any dates assigned to these actions? Who's likely to win this race? |
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Posted: 8/31/2021 2:07:24 PM EDT
[#49]
Grand Jury in TX?
i have been summoned for 3 months in Dallas Countyfor a Grand Jury ill put in a good word  |
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Posted: 8/31/2021 2:10:27 PM EDT
[#50]
IANAL; why is the grand jury coming from Texas?
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